Seaton F18 vs JTR, PSA, JBL Synthesis - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 31 Old 12-13-2017, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Seaton F18 vs JTR, PSA, JBL Synthesis

The F18's have been out for quite some time, but I haven't heard/read any consumer reviews on them. I like the design and the idea of a fully scalable set up where you can just add subs slaves as needed. I currently own 2 Submersive HP's and love them. How do these sound in comparison? How do the F18's compare to some other offerings like the JTR S1/S2? (2 F18's vs a single S2, etc), or vs the PSA offerings like the S1801, S3601? How about compare to the JBL S2S-EX?

If anybody owns or has heard the F18's as well as any of the other subs mentioned, what are your impressions?
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post #2 of 31 Old 12-13-2017, 01:43 PM
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I have the F18's, but the only other thing I've been able to compare them to in my room is the SubM, so...not much help to you. Plus, it wasn't really a fair comparison, as I went from having two master-slave F18 pairs in front with a SubM m/s pair behind me to just the SubM's up front. To be honest, though, when not using a bass-addict house curve and playing music at "normal" levels, I don't miss the F18s. But, bass-heavy movies / music is starving; I can't wait to have them back at the new place, though it'll probably just knock dust from my ceiling panels and vibrate everything enough to drive me mad until I can figure out what my permanent theater solution will be, lol.
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post #3 of 31 Old 12-13-2017, 10:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Lol, most of us are hunting that permanent, forever theater. The SubM's are formidable to say the least. If the F18's sound the same, but with the better scale-ability, they seem like a winner.
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post #4 of 31 Old 12-13-2017, 11:19 PM
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You might want to ask @Marc Alexander i think he's got four F18's.

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post #5 of 31 Old 12-14-2017, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post
The F18's have been out for quite some time, but I haven't heard/read any consumer reviews on them. I like the design and the idea of a fully scalable set up where you can just add subs slaves as needed. I currently own 2 Submersive HP's and love them. How do these sound in comparison? How do the F18's compare to some other offerings like the JTR S1/S2? (2 F18's vs a single S2, etc), or vs the PSA offerings like the S1801, S3601? How about compare to the JBL S2S-EX?

If anybody owns or has heard the F18's as well as any of the other subs mentioned, what are your impressions?
I believe Mark has mentioned in the past that four F18s can deliver twice the very deep bass when compared to two Submersives, with the same 4kw amp, due to the larger enclosure volume and displacement. As frequency increases the efficiency of the 15s in the Submersives gives it the edge so for example mid bass slam the edge goes to the 15s.

The UM18-22 in the F18 isnt as capable as the drivers in the JTR S1/S2, so you may need three F18s to match the output of one S2.
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post #6 of 31 Old 12-14-2017, 11:40 AM
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Just want to point out some facts.

The driver for JTR S1/S2 is more capable.

In the JTR S2, the 2 drivers will be driven by 4000W or 2000W each. In the S1, the driver gets 2400W

In the Seaton F18+, each module gets 1300W and 4 modules get 4000W total.

The numbers we got from the GTG at Marc's shows that the F18 is +3.5dB at 25Hz and below and the Submersive is +3.5dB @ 50Hz and above.

Now, if you are perfectly happy with the Submersives, stick with something from Seaton.

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post #7 of 31 Old 12-14-2017, 11:51 AM
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I think with three F18s the drivers get 1300W each and then it drops to 1kw each when there's four on the one amp.
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post #8 of 31 Old 12-14-2017, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
I believe Mark has mentioned in the past that four F18s can deliver twice the very deep bass when compared to two Submersives, with the same 4kw amp, due to the larger enclosure volume and displacement. As frequency increases the efficiency of the 15s in the Submersives gives it the edge so for example mid bass slam the edge goes to the 15s.

The UM18-22 in the F18 isnt as capable as the drivers in the JTR S1/S2, so you may need three F18s to match the output of one S2.
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Just want to point out some facts.

The driver for JTR S1/S2 is more capable.

In the JTR S2, the 2 drivers will be driven by 4000W or 2000W each. In the S1, the driver gets 2400W

In the Seaton F18+, each module gets 1300W and 4 modules get 4000W total.

The numbers we got from the GTG at Marc's shows that the F18 is +3.5dB at 25Hz and below and the Submersive is +3.5dB @ 50Hz and above.

Now, if you are perfectly happy with the Submersives, stick with something from Seaton.
Is that so? So basically a single JTR S2 will outperform 2 F18's?

That's interesting about the Submerives vs F18's as well. What I like so much about the Submersives with music is how punchy, articulate and accurate they seem to be. On good recordings, the kick drum sounds fantastic! Would the F18's or the S2's match that tight, punchy, articulate sound (which is usually in the 60hz range I believe)
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post #9 of 31 Old 12-14-2017, 01:13 PM
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I think in a situation where money and space are not limiting factors a mix of F18s for ultra low bass and Submersives for mid and upper bass would be a sweet mix indeed.

For a focus on pure music, Submersives all the way. The F18s dont make sense unless you have three or four, otherwise stick with a master and slave pair of Submersives.
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post #10 of 31 Old 12-15-2017, 11:34 AM
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I haven't been on here in a while, but dropped in and saw your post. My system is a mixture of JTR and Seaton Sound products. Both are excellent performers...

My experience with Seaton Subs- Currently own 4 F2's and 4 F18's (and prior HP's). You have a nice setup with the HP's already...I have always liked the d/o design and wish I still had mine.

As far as real world utilization, I REEEAAAAALLLLLY like the original SubM's performance. They are soooo detailed, articulate, and just plain slam....perfect. If you want more output just keep adding them, LOL.

or,

If you are like me and want the newest, just mix in F18's. The F18's have a different sound. If you play test tones the F18's are deeper. I'd benefit from professional calibration, but it sounds damn good right now, LOL.

Good luck on your adventure!
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post #11 of 31 Old 12-16-2017, 06:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRC3 View Post
I haven't been on here in a while, but dropped in and saw your post. My system is a mixture of JTR and Seaton Sound products. Both are excellent performers...

My experience with Seaton Subs- Currently own 4 F2's and 4 F18's (and prior HP's). You have a nice setup with the HP's already...I have always liked the d/o design and wish I still had mine.

As far as real world utilization, I REEEAAAAALLLLLY like the original SubM's performance. They are soooo detailed, articulate, and just plain slam....perfect. If you want more output just keep adding them, LOL.

or,

If you are like me and want the newest, just mix in F18's. The F18's have a different sound. If you play test tones the F18's are deeper. I'd benefit from professional calibration, but it sounds damn good right now, LOL.

Good luck on your adventure!
Thanks for your input! That's great information from somebody that has owned both the F18's and SubM's. Maybe I will just add SubM's or F18's to my current subM's. Maybe I could roll off the SubM's higher and have the F18's handle the majority of the really low stuff so the SubM's just handle the frequencies they excel at.

Another sub (completely massive monster) that always gets my attention is the JBL 5628.

http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/c...8#.WjUnWN-nFPY

These combined with an I-tech amp should give you all the DSP control you would ever need, and the drivers used in this sub are fantastic. Most people gripe about their extension, but I'm sure the in room extension is around the 20hz range or slightly below. I don't really care about single digit frequencies anyway.
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post #12 of 31 Old 12-16-2017, 05:43 PM
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What size room? Sealed room?
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post #13 of 31 Old 12-16-2017, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post
Thanks for your input! That's great information from somebody that has owned both the F18's and SubM's. Maybe I will just add SubM's or F18's to my current subM's. Maybe I could roll off the SubM's higher and have the F18's handle the majority of the really low stuff so the SubM's just handle the frequencies they excel at.

Another sub (completely massive monster) that always gets my attention is the JBL 5628.

http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/c...8#.WjUnWN-nFPY

These combined with an I-tech amp should give you all the DSP control you would ever need, and the drivers used in this sub are fantastic. Most people gripe about their extension, but I'm sure the in room extension is around the 20hz range or slightly below. I don't really care about single digit frequencies anyway.
I've always read its difficult to implement sealed and vented subs. I'd stay with one or other. I'd add more SubM's or F18's...6 total and you'll never want for more...
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post #14 of 31 Old 12-16-2017, 06:45 PM
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What size room? Sealed room?
If directed to me-

Dedicated theater room...23x15x9. One wall is 40% open...
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post #15 of 31 Old 12-16-2017, 07:07 PM
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If directed to me-

Dedicated theater room...23x15x9. One wall is 40% open...
I was actually curious about the OP and what size room he needed to fill, but damn, 8 Seaton products in that size room has to rock. I am building a sealed room which will be 13' x 22' x 8', and I was thinking 2 pairs of Master-slave SubM (one box in each corner) would be about all I really need. Just the one master-slave was pretty sweet even when the room was open to the whole basement.
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post #16 of 31 Old 12-16-2017, 10:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I've always read its difficult to implement sealed and vented subs. I'd stay with one or other. I'd add more SubM's or F18's...6 total and you'll never want for more...
Yes, I wouldn't even bother attempting that. It would be either SubM's and F18s mixed, or the 5628's.

Quote:
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What size room? Sealed room?
Current room is small at 14x25x7 (low ceilings). Future room in the future house I want to be around 28x21x13
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post #17 of 31 Old 12-17-2017, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
I was actually curious about the OP and what size room he needed to fill, but damn, 8 Seaton products in that size room has to rock. I am building a sealed room which will be 13' x 22' x 8', and I was thinking 2 pairs of Master-slave SubM (one box in each corner) would be about all I really need. Just the one master-slave was pretty sweet even when the room was open to the whole basement.
One in each corner would be the sweet spot. 6-8 nullifies the "what if" factor and can be dialed down, LOL.
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post #18 of 31 Old 01-16-2018, 12:01 PM
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I have three F18's and I love them. Getting 3 more whenever Mark emails me they are available. I was pretty impressed at how easily they integrated. They play well together. I kind of just through them in the three spots I thought was most aesthetic looking to start... and then when I measured with XTZ room analyzer (works like REW) - I was pleasantly surprised they were giving a perfect response. They are savage to be perfectly honest. Good savage.
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post #19 of 31 Old 01-16-2018, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveyMac View Post
I have three F18's and I love them. Getting 3 more whenever Mark emails me they are available. I was pretty impressed at how easily they integrated. They play well together. I kind of just through them in the three spots I thought was most aesthetic looking to start... and then when I measured with XTZ room analyzer (works like REW) - I was pleasantly surprised they were giving a perfect response. They are savage to be perfectly honest. Good savage.
After a long period of parts selling through as they were arriving, it looks like we'll have limited inventory by the end of the week, and more over the next 2-3 weeks.
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post #20 of 31 Old 01-18-2018, 06:58 PM
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I just received my single F18+ subwoofer this week. I previously had an SVS PB13 and a HSU-VTF15H with a 12"HSU mid-bass add on. I put my new F18+ in the same location as the other subs and this thing is a monster. Bass is chest thumping hard and precise, sounds like a ported sub but without the chuffing. My vote is for the F18+ and maybe adding a second later

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post #21 of 31 Old 01-18-2018, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Just want to point out some facts.

The driver for JTR S1/S2 is more capable.
By what metrics?
Quote:
In the JTR S2, the 2 drivers will be driven by 4000W or 2000W each. In the S1, the driver gets 2400W

In the Seaton F18+, each module gets 1300W and 4 modules get 4000W total.
Power without context means nothing. Look at data-bass and it appears that the S2 is right about +6dB from the UM18-22. I believe the F18 enclosure is larger than the S1.

I spoke to Jeff P a while back about it and he doesn't believe anyone could pick out a S1 vs F18 blind.
Quote:
The numbers we got from the GTG at Marc's shows that the F18 is +3.5dB at 25Hz and below and the Submersive is +3.5dB @ 50Hz and above.
When comparing the Submersive HP vs the F18 they seemed absolutely identical in SQ once I matched the PGM and LF Adjust with Mark's guidance. The only real differences were in their MAX SPL. I prefer the F18 to the Submersive because I value ULF headroom vs mid-bass (which the F18 has plenty of) as well as the active/passive flexibility. I know of several AVS members running both Submersives and F18s without issue.
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post #22 of 31 Old 01-19-2018, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
By what metrics?
By xmax numbers ( 33mm vs 22mm ), BL2/Res numbers ( 256 vs 118 ), cost ( $550 vs $280 ), and weight ( 70 lb vs 43 lb ).

Quote:
Power without context means nothing. Look at data-bass and it appears that the S2 is right about +6dB from the UM18-22. I believe the F18 enclosure is larger than the S1.

I spoke to Jeff P a while back about it and he doesn't believe anyone could pick out a S1 vs F18 blind.
Yes, of course. However, since we are comparing 2 top notch sealed ID subs, wouldn't you agree that when one has almost double the power of the other, there should be some output difference? Of course I don't expect a full 3dB of difference due to double the power.

When we are at subs costing $3000+, we are no longer at the "need" for spl but at the "headroom" rather.
Quote:
I spoke to Jeff P a while back about it and he doesn't believe anyone could pick out a S1 vs F18 blind.
When comparing the Submersive HP vs the F18 they seemed absolutely identical in SQ once I matched the PGM and LF Adjust with Mark's guidance. The only real differences were in their MAX SPL. I prefer the F18 to the Submersive because I value ULF headroom vs mid-bass (which the F18 has plenty of) as well as the active/passive flexibility. I know of several AVS members running both Submersives and F18s without issue.
Between the Submersive HP and F18+, the F18+ would be my choice as well, because they are newer and dig deeper.

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post #23 of 31 Old 03-03-2019, 10:22 AM
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Old thread but if money were no object, I would rather have more SubMersives and spend the extra money rather than fewer F18's.

I currently own 8 F18's (two masters and 6 slaves) and I have yet to get them sound as clean and articulate as when I had four SubMersives. And for music, there is simply no contest. The SubMersive is the far better sub. If I were doing it again, I would own as many SubMersives (no F18's) as it took to have the necessary headroom (probably 6 or so). I can get the low end "oomph" out of the SubMersives with a low end shelf filter. What I can't get is the mid/bass clarity/slam out of the F18.

What sub out there (if any) can give me what a SubMersive can?
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post #24 of 31 Old 03-09-2019, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Old thread but if money were no object, I would rather have more SubMersives and spend the extra money rather than fewer F18's.

I currently own 8 F18's (two masters and 6 slaves) and I have yet to get them sound as clean and articulate as when I had four SubMersives. And for music, there is simply no contest. The SubMersive is the far better sub. If I were doing it again, I would own as many SubMersives (no F18's) as it took to have the necessary headroom (probably 6 or so). I can get the low end "oomph" out of the SubMersives with a low end shelf filter. What I can't get is the mid/bass clarity/slam out of the F18.

What sub out there (if any) can give me what a SubMersive can?
Rythmik Audio G25HP and maybe the JL Audio Fathom f113v2. Someone, recently, in "Seaton Sound Subwoofer Thread" preferred the sound of the f113v2 over his SubMersive.
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post #25 of 31 Old 03-09-2019, 03:55 AM
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I’ve read the JL F113v2 is an amazing sub. Shame JL price them way out there.
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post #26 of 31 Old 03-09-2019, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post
Thanks for your input! That's great information from somebody that has owned both the F18's and SubM's. Maybe I will just add SubM's or F18's to my current subM's. Maybe I could roll off the SubM's higher and have the F18's handle the majority of the really low stuff so the SubM's just handle the frequencies they excel at.

Another sub (completely massive monster) that always gets my attention is the JBL 5628.

http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/c...8#.WjUnWN-nFPY

These combined with an I-tech amp should give you all the DSP control you would ever need, and the drivers used in this sub are fantastic. Most people gripe about their extension, but I'm sure the in room extension is around the 20hz range or slightly below. I don't really care about single digit frequencies anyway.
The high efficiency drivers used in the JBL will pound you with mid bass like none of the other subs you are looking at will do. It's why the Submersive fairs so well on music compared to many competing subs...the ultra high excursion deep bass subs just cannot do what higher efficiency pro audio oriented drivers can do. JTR's driver designs are surprisingly efficient up top compared to many considering their deep bass performance, but there's a reason even a dirt cheap driver like Dayton's PA460 adds so much slam and impact to the most over the top multiple 18" setups. I bet the first JBL you linked would fair VERY well against any of the subs you mentioned in a demo session. It looks to be pretty efficient so would pound on mid bass and looks like it would have strong extension below 20 Hz in room.

The F18's as others have said, would pound down low, but lose to even the 15" submersive up top. The JTR S2 will beat a pair of F18's everywhere imo. If you have extremely capable mains with high efficiency 12" woofers, it might be less important to have tons of efficient mid bass slam from your subs, and more important to focus on the bottom end. In my case for example, I need both in order to complement small bookshelf speakers, so I chose more of a Hybrid driver....high excursion for lots of output down low but more pro audio oriented and high efficiency for tons of output and mid bass slam up top. Took me a long time to figure out this was what I was after. Again though, not every design is right for everyone based on the rest of their system.
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post #27 of 31 Old 03-09-2019, 05:12 AM
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Old thread but if money were no object, I would rather have more SubMersives and spend the extra money rather than fewer F18's.

I currently own 8 F18's (two masters and 6 slaves) and I have yet to get them sound as clean and articulate as when I had four SubMersives. And for music, there is simply no contest. The SubMersive is the far better sub. If I were doing it again, I would own as many SubMersives (no F18's) as it took to have the necessary headroom (probably 6 or so). I can get the low end "oomph" out of the SubMersives with a low end shelf filter. What I can't get is the mid/bass clarity/slam out of the F18.

What sub out there (if any) can give me what a SubMersive can?
If open to DIY(which really boils down to gluing a flat pack together):https://data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=112&mset=124

For a turn key solution, I think the S2 would be close, but of course its double the sub down low and does cost more. I'd look at Rythmik's G25HP as well.

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post #28 of 31 Old 03-09-2019, 06:51 AM
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Old thread but if money were no object, I would rather have more SubMersives and spend the extra money rather than fewer F18's.



I currently own 8 F18's (two masters and 6 slaves) and I have yet to get them sound as clean and articulate as when I had four SubMersives. And for music, there is simply no contest. The SubMersive is the far better sub. If I were doing it again, I would own as many SubMersives (no F18's) as it took to have the necessary headroom (probably 6 or so). I can get the low end "oomph" out of the SubMersives with a low end shelf filter. What I can't get is the mid/bass clarity/slam out of the F18.



What sub out there (if any) can give me what a SubMersive can?
https://www.funkaudio.ca/store/c3/Subwoofers.html

Aren't your F18s placed differently than the Submersives were? Have you tested identical placement? My assessment of the Submersive vs F18 does not match yours.
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post #29 of 31 Old 03-09-2019, 05:56 PM
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https://www.funkaudio.ca/store/c3/Subwoofers.html

Aren't your F18s placed differently than the Submersives were? Have you tested identical placement? My assessment of the Submersive vs F18 does not match yours.
The placement difference is in the rear subs. When I had SubMersives, the rear subs (two of them) were stacked in one of the rear corners. My 4 F18's are along the middle of the back wall . BUT, if use just the front 4 F18 subs ( 2 in each corner), I still think the mid/upper bass of the SubMersive is cleaner. I can't test identical placement since I can't stack 4 subs in one corner but I could do 3 in one corner. I may test it sometime!!
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post #30 of 31 Old 03-09-2019, 06:33 PM
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The placement difference is in the rear subs. When I had SubMersives, the rear subs (two of them) were stacked in one of the rear corners. My 4 F18's are along the middle of the back wall . BUT, if use just there front 4 F18 subs, I still think the mid/upper bass of the SubMersive is cleaner. I can't test identical placement since I can't stack 4 subs in one corner but I could do 3 in one corner. I may test it sometime!!
I suspect the differences you speak of are either due to placement or psychoacoustic phenomena. There is also the driver orientation difference which could be a factor (slim chance though). You also have a different toolset now with the Trinnov but I remember you working on the F18 integration well before your move from Datasat.

Listening to both the F18 & Submersive HP (not +) head-to-head I found them indistinguishable up to the point where headroom became a factor. ULF advantage vs mid-bass advantage.

I also had the PSA S3000i at the same time as well. It was also indistinguishable at lower SPL levels. However, the PSA exhibited more THD and it became audible as levels were increased. It was not bad sounding in any way. Thicker is the best I can describe it. I'd bet a majority of blind listeners would prefer the PSA for movies and the Submersive for music.

As many know, Seaton and PSA both use variants of the Eminence Lab15. But each is customized. The Seaton variant is most likely more expensive as it is more linear ([sarcasm]what a revelation, huh?[/sarcasm]) across the board. Not audible, but measurable even at lower levels.

Many know that the F18 utilize the Dayton UM18 but Mark does not purchase from Parts Express. The drivers utilized by Seaton must adhere to a more stringent set of specifications. A F18 will play lower and louder than a similar DIY UM18.

I know you already know most if not all of this. But, I still read posts saying Seaton buys from Parts Express or PSA uses the same drivers so I feel compelled to highlight the true differences.
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