Dolby Atmos Sub Help - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 29 Old 01-27-2018, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Dolby Atmos Sub Help

I finally got my house basement setup for a home theater this last fall and pulled my almost 20 year old stuff out of storage. I use to have this setup in an apartment. I upgraded my receiver to an Onkyo TX-RZ720, bought the tv stand and LG OLED 65". I got a LG UP870 4k blu-ray player. My speakers are JBL S312 L/R, S-Center, S38 rears, Yamaha NS-AW1 top, and a Yamaha YST-SW90 sub. For the most part my sub does good. I don't remember it having problems before I put into storage and now I notice an unpleasant sound on certain points with Dolby Atmos tracks in particular. As an example with the demonstration file "Amaze" where it is the thunderstom and it says "Sound You Can Feel" and transitions to where it says "Powerful Bass" my sub emits a sound that one local retailer referred to as burping. I have heard the clip in a local Atmos Demonstration room and the sound was more felt than heard with none of that unpleasant sound. They were of course running a 7.4.4 setup with GoldenEar speakers where one tower alone cost more than I spent so far. Another good example clip of where my existing sub sounds great and perfect to me is the movie Unbroken. The scene where they are going into the bombing run and flak is going off with bullets zinging by and the impact when they fire their own machine guns sounds incredible to me. I tried listening to the SVS line PB-1000, PB-2000, PC-2000, SB13 at the only local SVS retailer, and they all did the "burping" sound. Oddly enough they had a Definitive Technology Super Cube 2000 sitting in between the PC-2000 and SB13 that sounded not quite as loud or felt as much but was cleaner in reproducing that sound in that clip. In another room they had a Super Cube 4000 that did a little better but when they started the demo was getting a bad vibration sound and they took off the top plastic cover which has me questioning quality of the brand. My listening area is 10'x11'x8' open to the left in a 11'x18' room. In front I have 14" of space available on either side of my towers. On either side of my seating I have 24". Behind my seating (where my sub is now) I have 24" low, but because my back angles I only have 16" high.

So I am looking for recommendations of a subwoofer replacement that will be able to do everything. Is it a case where if I got a higher wattage sub than mine with similar frequency ratings I could turn the volume down so it doesn't sound distorted at those frequencies yet still be loud enough to sound great like mine does in Unbroken? Are Definitive Technology subs actually good and they just had an abused one? I keep reading how good SVS subs are, is it just them being poorly setup? One big thing I didn't like about the higher end SVS subs is their grill covers. I have a spray I have used on my cloth grills to train my cats to leave them alone. I can see my cats puncturing the woofer or surround with such a huge opening at top on the SVS. Since I have a small room get one very good one or buy 2? My ideal budget is less than $1000, less the better of course. I am willing to go max $1500 for the right set up. Thank you in advance.
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post #2 of 29 Old 01-27-2018, 06:27 PM
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I don't have that file to check but you can see if anyone measured it(see the bassy movie scenes threads in this forum). However if you heard the same noise at the same time in the demo from other subs it could mean the signal is so hot that it is easily clipped upstream of the sub.

Check the sub settings in the Onkyo and if they are 00 or higher try backing that off a bit...sometimes just 2-3dB can do the trick. Also, to maximize sub output place it in/near a corner---particularly a corner near the seating. Having said that, yammy subs aren't really known for their potency. So any of the usual suspects would likely be huge upgrades for you. Just check the various "which sub", "best sub" threads that pop up around here every day..

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post #3 of 29 Old 01-28-2018, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for the advice of changing the settings at the receiver. I will give that a try this evening. I did the Sub crawl and the sub at the front right corner sounded the cleanest but the quietest. With it behind the seating position it actually makes the most impact and I can feel it. So for me that is the best position with what I have. I didn't realize how lacking my sub was until I pulled it out of storage. It even wasn't noticeable until I got the new receiver able to handle the new sound formats. After reading several threads here and reviews other places how good SVS is I was surprised to hear them doing the same thing as my cheap under powered old sub at certain audio points at the retailer. I was also surprised the little baby Definitive Technology subs didn't sound like my old one and SVS subs. However I have not been able to find many reviews except those on sites selling them and that plastic panel vibrating on one of them in the store has me questioning quality. That is why I am looking more experienced advice and recommendations. The demonstration file is available through Dolby's website. I would post the link but I am new enough not to be allowed. Do a Dolby Labs Test Tone search and the link will be easy to find.
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post #4 of 29 Old 01-28-2018, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Joshua Chmiel View Post
My ideal budget is less than $1000, less the better of course. I am willing to go max $1500 for the right set up. Thank you in advance.
Is this the sub you have now?

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_022YST...a_yst&skipvs=T

If so, frankly, it is time to get a real subwoofer.

If you have room for only one sub and can fit one, I would look at HSU and Rythmik's ported 15" subs. The Rythmik FV15HP is just under budget and is a fantastic, low distortion sub and is the one I would recommend in your budget if it would fit in your room. Tom from PSA is also in this thread, and his subs have a good reputation, but I don't have any experience with them. The new Monoprice 15" ported sub is also getting good reviews on AVS, but the box is reportedly even larger than most 15" ported subs.

If you can fit two subs, that is another route to go, and you could get a pair of 12" subs in your budget for a potentially more even room response. HSU and Rythmik also make good 12" subs.

I would, frankly, skip subs you can buy in a store, and especially skip the Def Tech subs. SVS makes good products, but you can do better for you money with HSU and Rythmik, for example.
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post #5 of 29 Old 01-28-2018, 07:56 AM
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I just looked at that room again, and a sealed 15" sub might work well if the room is closed off to the rest of the house.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F15HP.html
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post #6 of 29 Old 01-28-2018, 08:09 AM
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In a room that small, a sealed sub would provide better results. You'd get a fair amount of room gain, shallow roll off and no "burping" sound. With your 1K budget I'd look at dual SVS SB-12's currently $399 each. Place one in the front corner and the 2nd where you have the Yammy.

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post #7 of 29 Old 01-28-2018, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
Is this the sub you have now?



If so, frankly, it is time to get a real subwoofer.

If you have room for only one sub and can fit one, I would look at HSU and Rythmik's ported 15" subs. The Rythmik FV15HP is just under budget and is a fantastic, low distortion sub and is the one I would recommend in your budget if it would fit in your room. Tom from PSA is also in this thread, and his subs have a good reputation, but I don't have any experience with them. The new Monoprice 15" ported sub is also getting good reviews on AVS, but the box is reportedly even larger than most 15" ported subs.

If you can fit two subs, that is another route to go, and you could get a pair of 12" subs in your budget for a potentially more even room response. HSU and Rythmik also make good 12" subs.

I would, frankly, skip subs you can buy in a store, and especially skip the Def Tech subs. SVS makes good products, but you can do better for you money with HSU and Rythmik, for example.
It is not that sub. I will still qualify me as needing a "Real Sub". I have a much older YST-SW90. I got it at the same time as my JBLs to give you an idea how old it is. It was actually an excellent budget sub at the time and even now when I demo my setup to friends and family they are incredibly impressed. I don't know if my old receiver (same age as the JBLs and sub) was incapable of sending those frequencies or if is just the newer sound formats but now I hear the "burping" at certain points and it annoys me. I got adjusted and tuned for the most part where I don't have it but now my "felt impact" is not as strong.
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I have played that Atmos demo many times as a test of my system and the part you are referring to definitely should be mostly very low frequency content that is primarily felt and not heard. I have 2 SVS PC-12+ subs in a 3100 cubic ft room and they actually pressurize the room with no port noise or anything. It’s actually one of my favorite sub demos. As others have mentioned in that relative small size room you have many options that should work well including sealed subs.

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post #9 of 29 Old 01-28-2018, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Joshua Chmiel View Post
I finally got my house basement setup for a home theater this last fall and pulled my almost 20 year old stuff out of storage. I use to have this setup in an apartment. I upgraded my receiver to an Onkyo TX-RZ720, bought the tv stand and LG OLED 65". I got a LG UP870 4k blu-ray player. My speakers are JBL S312 L/R, S-Center, S38 rears, Yamaha NS-AW1 top, and a Yamaha YST-SW90 sub. For the most part my sub does good. I don't remember it having problems before I put into storage and now I notice an unpleasant sound on certain points with Dolby Atmos tracks in particular. As an example with the demonstration file "Amaze" where it is the thunderstom and it says "Sound You Can Feel" and transitions to where it says "Powerful Bass" my sub emits a sound that one local retailer referred to as burping. I have heard the clip in a local Atmos Demonstration room and the sound was more felt than heard with none of that unpleasant sound. They were of course running a 7.4.4 setup with GoldenEar speakers where one tower alone cost more than I spent so far. Another good example clip of where my existing sub sounds great and perfect to me is the movie Unbroken. The scene where they are going into the bombing run and flak is going off with bullets zinging by and the impact when they fire their own machine guns sounds incredible to me. I tried listening to the SVS line PB-1000, PB-2000, PC-2000, SB13 at the only local SVS retailer, and they all did the "burping" sound. Oddly enough they had a Definitive Technology Super Cube 2000 sitting in between the PC-2000 and SB13 that sounded not quite as loud or felt as much but was cleaner in reproducing that sound in that clip. In another room they had a Super Cube 4000 that did a little better but when they started the demo was getting a bad vibration sound and they took off the top plastic cover which has me questioning quality of the brand. My listening area is 10'x11'x8' open to the left in a 11'x18' room. In front I have 14" of space available on either side of my towers. On either side of my seating I have 24". Behind my seating (where my sub is now) I have 24" low, but because my back angles I only have 16" high.

So I am looking for recommendations of a subwoofer replacement that will be able to do everything. Is it a case where if I got a higher wattage sub than mine with similar frequency ratings I could turn the volume down so it doesn't sound distorted at those frequencies yet still be loud enough to sound great like mine does in Unbroken? Are Definitive Technology subs actually good and they just had an abused one? I keep reading how good SVS subs are, is it just them being poorly setup? One big thing I didn't like about the higher end SVS subs is their grill covers. I have a spray I have used on my cloth grills to train my cats to leave them alone. I can see my cats puncturing the woofer or surround with such a huge opening at top on the SVS. Since I have a small room get one very good one or buy 2? My ideal budget is less than $1000, less the better of course. I am willing to go max $1500 for the right set up. Thank you in advance.
Yes sir that Dolby Amaze clip has ultra strong bass down into the single digits but is centered around 11-14hz the strongest. This clip has been known to eat drivers in very "Real Subs" in the DIY community. You will have a hard time finding a sub at any retail store that will cleanly play back the bass on that clip that is not sealed or if ported tuned very low like the Rythmik Fv15HP. A few of the SVS subs like the Ultra's of maybe the new 4000 series possibly in the ported lineup or maybe some of the sealed models could handle it. I'm with the others who mentioned it before that if you are looking to upgrade I would stay away from SVS or any of the store brands and focus on brands like Rythmik, Psa or JTR. Personally I would stretch your budget to the max $1500 and buy the best sub or 2 that I could afford now as a good sub will last you through several system iteritations/upgrades and is the anchor of any descent system. You will never regret buying all the sub/subs you can possibly afford now instead of trying to stay under $1000 and wishing (like all of us do eventually) down the road you had more sub again. Making that mistake will end up costing you more in the long run because if you skimp a bit now to later want more again you end up having the hassle of trying to sell off what you have, for a loss, then spend more on top of that to upgrade. Taking the plunge now and buying an ultra capable sub/ or pair of subs will ensure you can play back whatever is encoded to the soundtrack of any movie or clip no matter how hard it is to reproduce.

Modern soundtracks (Atmos especially) and some of the older ones too have bass that reaches down to the single digits and is mixed very loudly(I.E. War of the Worlds, Star Trek 2009, How to Train your Dragon, Blade Runner 2017, John Wick 1&2, Warcraft, Star Wars TFA & RO, Deadpool, Hacksaw Ridge just to name a few) and the hope is they get even stronger and use more ultra low frequencies as time goes on and mixing gets(hopefully) better, so the demand on any sub you buy will prob only get more intense as time goes on. Just like your old Yamaha sub(which is rated from 23-120hz but the lower limit of 23hz is probably the -10db point so by the time you get to 16hz it will basically have no response and will make dreadful noises trying to reproduce it, though above about 30hz it will have decent output) is not up to the task it seemed to handle before storage, future proofing as much as possible will ensure you the best experience and keep you from being in the same shape you are now some years down the road.

If I were in your position myself there are only a few options I would seriously consider within your $1500 budget and size requirements. I'll drop links below for you to research and hopefully set you on the right track for finding the experience you are looking for with modern soundtracks and clips like Amaze.

Large Single sub options: These will stretch your size limits and budget but will really perform when needed. These first 3 are the bigger and more expensive options but will quickly let you know where the extra money went.

First choice:Ported
http://jtrspeakers.com/captivator-118ht.html
A bit large and slightly over budget but a damn serious performer, from some would argue one of the best in the world, that will have you in bass ecstasy for many many years to come. If you can squeeze this one in it will be sure to over impress, play down deep and sound great doing it. You will never hear any distress noises from this sub and you would be close to being run out of the room from the sheer amount of the bass before getting close. Owner @Jeff Permanian is always around here at AVS and especially in the JTR subwoofer thread which I encourage you to read from start to finish to get an idea of the insane customer service and more importantly the world class bar setting performance that is JTR subwoofers. With a staggering line up of huge ULF monsters and also some of the best speakers in the world it's no wonder JTR is my first choice were I in your position. Mate that with the level of service Jeff provides(personally delivering and helping setup some folk speakers and subs and even replacing some people's drivers and amp past their warranty) and the choice starts to become easy if you can swing the size and budget. Easily my first choice close to your budget.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...er-thread.html

Second choice:Ported or Sealed
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FV15HP.html
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F15HP.html
Known for their sound quality and low tuned ported subs with servo feedback Rythmik is a staple of the community here at AVS and there is a reason why. They make a great sub at a good value that down right perform to even high single digits frequencies without ever sounding distressed because of the servo feedback system. The FV15HP comes in just under budget in FV form(ported or sealed) and is even a bit cheaper in only F (sealed only) form. The ported enclosure is like 3 subs in one because of 2 tuning modes and a sealed more. Its a bit on the large size but plays with good output down low because of a lowest 12.5hz tuning freq. and a sealed mode. The sealed only F15HP is also a good performer but gives up a lot of output in the deep bass from 13-25hz area to the FV because of the larger enclosure in sealed mode and ports in ported. (Not sure where in the Rythmik food chain he falls but @enricoclaudio works with them and is always present on the Offical Rythmik Audio Subwoofer Thread) This one could also be in the First Choice position if JTR didn't exist and depending on your priorities still could be i guess.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...er-thread.html

Third Choice: Sealed Dual Opposed
https://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/S3000i
Another stellar performer that has great sound quality to match. This sub is a Dual Opposed design and utilizes 2 15" drivers horizontally opposed to reduce vibrations. This being a sealed design it will reach down to single digits with ease and with authority but will be down a few db in the 15-30hz area to the larger ported subs above because of that deeper extension . It comes in just over your budget and will prob only fit in one or two places in your room without moving things around a bit(same with the first 2 recommends above) but will make up for it just like the last 2 with performance. Owner @Tom Vodhanel is a great resource for knowledge, is always happy to help and has already stopped by this thread(more below). PSA is known for a great trial period and stellar customer service. All components used are quality as is the build/finishes. PSA has a very large following here at AVS and its for a reason as they offer a lot of performance for your dollar with sound quality to match. Once again this one just gets beat out for first choice because once again JTR exists, but if you can't make one of the first 2 fit in your room and want something a bit more powerful than the Rythmik F15hp this one could still be also.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...er-thread.html

Duals:

First choice: Ported or Sealed Duals(2 Subs)
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3mk5HP.html
Known for no nonsense designs that consistently review well in the press and from owners HSU research makes good performing good looking subs. This and a few other Hsu designs are like buying 3 subs in one because of the 2 tuning modes and sealed mode also. A bit over your budget but well worth it, 2 of the VTF-3Mk5HP's would allow for near equal output but maybe not quite as low as some of the bigger more powerful subs I recommended for single use above but would allow the room smoothing qualities of duals.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...rt-thread.html

2nd First Choice: Ported or Sealed Duals though ported will cost $100 more for duals. This one will push the budget to the point of possibly needing to buy one now and one later if the goal is to get the room smoothing effects of duals.
https://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/15S

https://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/15V
PSA has a huge following and with good reason. Tom Vodhanel who has already graced this thread is a master of the craft and offers serious deep bass value for money as this is the 2nd and 3rd PSA sub I have recommended. Customer service is exceptional and Tom's presence here is a sign of such. Many people get Tom on the phone the first time they call PSA and he is a vast wealth of knowledge about more than just subs. Both the ported and sealed 15 are great performers but only the sealed S model would reach strongly down below 15hz or so. The 15V will also be a bit larger than the S but will offer stronger performance from 16-30hz but roll off quickly much below 16hz.

Second choice: If you can't stretch the budget over $1500 at all and still want duals there are a lot of options but all of them will give up a considerable amount of extention or output power below 20-25hz. They will all be great performers in their intended bandwidth but will struggle down deep like your Yamaha all be it just a bit lower. Once you start to get to this point of lower priced subs the cost savings must come from somewhere and sadly most times the limiting circuits is one of the first places cuts are made. This is evident in the "chuffing"/distress"/"burping" sounds you hear from your Yamaha and some of the SVS's you demoed. Subs with the best limiters will just not even try and play the deepest freq's saving the sub from making the bad noises in the first place. Of course not all the lower priced subs in the $600-750 range that will allow you to buy duals and stay under $1500 will suffer from poor limiters but some inevitably will and wading through them can be tough between glowing reviews and proud owners who don't want and seem filled with regret when telling everyone about their new sub. This is why I urge you to push your budget even if that means buying one "good sub" now and the second later.
I'm going to go ahead and recommend a few subs that stay within your budget that are known to have good limiters that will keep a driver from sounding distressed(when setup properly of course) while still offering good output and sound quality. As I said the market is littered with options so this is just my top choices that I know are safe bets.
https://shop.goldenear.com/p/forcefi...ubwoofer?pp=24
Nothing but good things said about the entire Forcefield line of subs though they are no output monsters they have great extension because of the passive radiator design and great sound quality. The passive radiator allows deep extension almost into sealed territory though with a bit more authority and output from 14-25hz all while keeping the size surprisingly small. I would have to give these a strong listen before ruling them out as my #1 choice for duals under your budget and size requirements. Also you can sample them locally it sounds like and you mentioned that the GoldEar's handled the Amaze clip. If you read any reviews of the ForceFields you will see that pushing them to distress is almost impossible and this is a good sign of top notch limiting/amplification and robust drivers. If sticking with duals and staying under your budget the FF4 would fit the bill because the FF5 is priced to where other options make more sense unless you truly must stay with a very small form factor.

https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_...seq=1&format=2
New to the market and a bit unproven these look good, though a bit inefficient in the midbass area compared to other offerings in this price bracket. This is also only a 10" driver and the enclosures are large being ported.

https://www.svsound.com/products/sb-2000

https://www.svsound.com/products/pb-2000
I know I said stay away but the SB/PB-2000 are good performers with good limiting though possibly not the best as you heard during the demo but still very competent in this price bracket for duals. They use good drivers , amps and the build quality is good. I would still urge you to shop otherwise if possible though.

https://rslspeakers.com/products/rsl-speedwoofer-10s/
RSL has deep roots in the industry and created a very solid performer in the Speedwoofer 10S. It has good extension though will run out of gas quickly below 20hz. The price would allow you to possibly even go for a quad setup(4 subs), be just over budget and 1 sub in each corner of the room will offer the most room smoothing response benefits even over duals. The Speedwoofer has been seen to have good limiting and should show little signs of distress below its lower freq. limits of 20hz or so.

I could go on but hopefully you are able to do the budget and size stretching I suggest. This should at least get you on the right track for some serious research and contemplation. If I can assist you at all any further please feel free to PM me and as I already said @Tom Vodhanel . is always available here and at PSA's site and he is much more qualified and experienced than I am. Also if you're are interested in JTR( I would be, still my most wanted sub brand, any of them throughout the lineup) you can reach out to the owner @Jeff Permanian here through PM or at JTR's site. Then if you are interested in Rythmik you can reach out to @enricoclaudio for more info. All the other companies I mention can surely be reached at their websites if you can't find the info you need online of here at AVS. Good luck on your journey and keep us posted on what you end up choosing.
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post #10 of 29 Old 01-29-2018, 05:48 AM
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Yes sir that Dolby Amaze clip has ultra strong bass down into the single digits but is centered around 11-14hz the strongest. This clip has been known to eat drivers in very "Real Subs" in the DIY community. You will have a hard time finding a sub at any retail store that will cleanly play back the bass on that clip that is not sealed or if ported tuned very low like the Rythmik Fv15HP. A few of the SVS subs like the Ultra's of maybe the new 4000 series possibly in the ported lineup or maybe some of the sealed models could handle it.
Interesting - I did not know this about this clip. I am confused then how my dual PC12+ subs seemingly handle it so well unless I'm not hearing/feeling what I'm supposed to. All I can say is that I don't hear any port noise, and I really can feel it more than just about any movie clip. I have windows between our living room and a sun room and they flex during the clip. Now I haven't played it at reference (prob -20) but I do run the subs ~9db hot. I hope I have not damaged my subs playing it.

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post #11 of 29 Old 01-29-2018, 07:33 AM
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Interesting - I did not know this about this clip. I am confused then how my dual PC12+ subs seemingly handle it so well unless I'm not hearing/feeling what I'm supposed to. All I can say is that I don't hear any port noise, and I really can feel it more than just about any movie clip. I have windows between our living room and a sun room and they flex during the clip. Now I haven't played it at reference (prob -20) but I do run the subs ~9db hot. I hope I have not damaged my subs playing it.


Here is a capture of the Amaze clip taken from another thread that shows just how serious the effect is. This capture is taken straight from the disk by member Shreads who is the forum expert on such matters. This is one very hard clip to fully reproduce as intended.

Effects this large are made up of many frequencies stacked on top of each other, to leverage more digital headroom, that run the full sub bandwidth as you can see. The strongest part of the effect is in the 11-35hz area but the 1-11hz area is almost just as strong as the rest of the bandwidth other than that 11-35hz area. Also note that effects like these have a lot of redirected bass from the LCR's from the bass mgt. used in your receiver/pre-amp. These type of effects rely on you having your bass mgt. set properly along with your sub trim set far enough into the negative on your receiver/ pre-amp as to not clip your sub out on your receiver when running the MV above say -15. All the bass in the LFE channel combined with the redirected bass from the LCR's add up to an effect that will stress all but the best subs, even some of them too, and will clip the sub out on almost any processor not configured properly(as will many movie effects also). All this can add up to heavy distress noises from systems not configured properly from source to sub.

Your Pc12+ being up in the SVS range a bit and has good enough limiting to keep you safe from damage and mostly free of distress noises. This is also why the effect seems nice and strong to you even though you are missing the last octave and a half or so because the DSP in the +'s keep the subs from trying to reproduce freq's below their bandwidth allowing for maximum headroom in it's intended operating bandwidth. This effect is very well mixed as to take advantage of most consumer subs with good limiting but will flesh out weak subs that can't protect themselves well enough quite quickly. This is the reason for the death of a few DIY subs here on the forums because the builders didn't have aggressive enough limiting/highpss filters in place and were prob applying more than rated power to the driver too. SVS spent the money and R&D time to keep you from destroying our subs by deploying sufficient limiting but this can often be an area where DIY sub system designers/builders have yet to fully set correctly until an effect like this comes along and stresses the sub system enough to realize their limiting is insufficient and sadly sometimes with catastrophic results that can end in a blown driver.
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post #12 of 29 Old 01-29-2018, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by biga6761 View Post


Here is a capture of the Amaze clip taken from another thread that shows just how serious the effect is. This capture is taken straight from the disk by member Shreads who is the forum expert on such matters. This is one very hard clip to fully reproduce as intended.

Effects this large are made up of many frequencies stacked on top of each other, to leverage more digital headroom, that run the full sub bandwidth as you can see. The strongest part of the effect is in the 11-35hz area but the 1-11hz area is almost just as strong as the rest of the bandwidth other than that 11-35hz area. Also note that effects like these have a lot of redirected bass from the LCR's from the bass mgt. used in your receiver/pre-amp. These type of effects rely on you having your bass mgt. set properly along with your sub trim set far enough into the negative on your receiver/ pre-amp as to not clip your sub out on your receiver when running the MV above say -15. All the bass in the LFE channel combined with the redirected bass from the LCR's add up to an effect that will stress all but the best subs, even some of them too, and will clip the sub out on almost any processor not configured properly(as will many movie effects also). All this can add up to heavy distress noises from systems not configured properly from source to sub.

Your Pc12+ being up in the SVS range a bit and has good enough limiting to keep you safe from damage and mostly free of distress noises. This is also why the effect seems nice and strong to you even though you are missing the last octave and a half or so because the DSP in the +'s keep the subs from trying to reproduce freq's below their bandwidth allowing for maximum headroom in it's intended operating bandwidth. This effect is very well mixed as to take advantage of most consumer subs with good limiting but will flesh out weak subs that can't protect themselves well enough quite quickly. This is the reason for the death of a few DIY subs here on the forums because the builders didn't have aggressive enough limiting/highpss filters in place and were prob applying more than rated power to the driver too. SVS spent the money and R&D time to keep you from destroying our subs by deploying sufficient limiting but this can often be an area where DIY sub system designers/builders have yet to fully set correctly until an effect like this comes along and stresses the sub system enough to realize their limiting is insufficient and sadly sometimes with catastrophic results that can end in a blown driver.
Thanks for the data on that clip. Sorry to derail this thread. My bass management is set up pretty well and based on much of the guidelines here. Even with running my subs fairly hot I keep sub trim in the negative range. By REW measurements I do have usable in-room response down to about 15hz but certainly nothing around 11. I guess between DSP limits on the subs and audio content all the way up to the 30Hz range it seems to work well on my system. Happy about that.
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post #13 of 29 Old 01-29-2018, 09:22 AM
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Interesting - I did not know this about this clip. I am confused then how my dual PC12+ subs seemingly handle it so well unless I'm not hearing/feeling what I'm supposed to. All I can say is that I don't hear any port noise, and I really can feel it more than just about any movie clip. I have windows between our living room and a sun room and they flex during the clip. Now I haven't played it at reference (prob -20) but I do run the subs ~9db hot. I hope I have not damaged my subs playing it.
I have the PB12 Plus and it handles it like a champ as well. I had no idea it dug that low though...now I can smile more. 😁
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post #14 of 29 Old 01-29-2018, 12:46 PM
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It is not that sub. I will still qualify me as needing a "Real Sub". I have a much older YST-SW90. I got it at the same time as my JBLs to give you an idea how old it is. It was actually an excellent budget sub at the time and even now when I demo my setup to friends and family they are incredibly impressed. I don't know if my old receiver (same age as the JBLs and sub) was incapable of sending those frequencies or if is just the newer sound formats but now I hear the "burping" at certain points and it annoys me. I got adjusted and tuned for the most part where I don't have it but now my "felt impact" is not as strong.
I have a SVS PC12+ and the biggest of the Def Tech Super Cubes- 8000. It can't hold a candle to the PC12+.

Watched Blade Runner 2049 and the opening 5 minutes or so are all bass. The PC12+ had no issues, the SC8000 just gave up, rattled and made other not so good noises. I'd take any SVS sub over any Super Cube.
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post #15 of 29 Old 01-29-2018, 04:15 PM
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However if you heard the same noise at the same time in the demo from other subs it could mean the signal is so hot that it is easily clipped upstream of the sub.

^ Most likely this. I'm betting the sub's gain was too high and/or the AVR wasn't properly calibrated

I had dual SVS PB10-NSD subs and had zero issues with this clip. The bass was super clean and low. The ONLY thing I ever found that caused me an issue was from the movie "Pulse" - the server room clip. One of the PB10's was bought used and was a different generation. I got port "chuffing" from that one (you could hear the air coming out of the port).

I then upgraded to dual SVS PB-2000 and have since have had zero issues. Well, except for the intro to "Live Die, Repeat AKA "Edge of Tomorrow"...the bass shook the faux window pains so that they rattled between the two pieces of glass. Nothing to be done about that though.

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...mixed very loudly(I.E. War of the Worlds, Star Trek 2009, How to Train your Dragon, Blade Runner 2017, John Wick 1&2, Warcraft, Star Wars TFA & RO, Deadpool, Hacksaw Ridge just to name a few

These are all great examples of movies with some excellent sound mixing.
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post #16 of 29 Old 01-29-2018, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
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@biga6761 Thank you for all the links and recommendations. That is a huge help. Yesterday reading several posts here I stumbled on a review by a member here (Mark if I remember correctly) on the Golden Ear FF5. That of course lead me to other highly positive reviews of that unit. Based on my experience at the local retailer the SVS subs and the DT SC2000 were at whatever settings they had it at and signal coming from the same Marantz receiver. That little SC2000 impressed me in that might not be as loud, but plenty loud enough, handled that situation better. If it wasn't for the SC4000 in a different room having the vibrating plastic top removed to sound better I probably would have bought. I know at the other retailer that had the Golden Ear setup demonstration room I was impressed and it handled it great. At the time they only had the Golden Ear SuperSub XXL (opposing woofers and dual radiators) at $1999. Based on my hearing preferences I am leaning toward the passive radiator options. I will continue looking into it and probably save up a few months more and get 2 FF5s or extend my budget to $2000 at the very least with that time.
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post #17 of 29 Old 01-29-2018, 05:45 PM
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@biga6761 Based on my hearing preferences I am leaning toward the passive radiator options.
Passive radiators act as a resonance system coupled to the air spring inside the box and resonate based on their tuning. They function or or less like a port only they add a more cost than a port.
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post #18 of 29 Old 01-30-2018, 03:59 PM - Thread Starter
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@jjackkrash I understand that but so far I have heard at retailers sealed: Martin Logan and SVS, ported: my Yamaha, Polk, Klipsch, SVS, JBL and passive radiator: Definitive Technology and Golden Ear. For my ears I have been most impressed with the passive radiators so far. I am still researching and keeping my options open. @biga6761 has given me lots of options and information for me to look into. Of that information I have ruled out his #1 recommendation due to size restrictions my room poses.
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post #19 of 29 Old 01-31-2018, 01:37 PM
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@biga6761 Thank you for all the links and recommendations. That is a huge help. Yesterday reading several posts here I stumbled on a review by a member here (Mark if I remember correctly) on the Golden Ear FF5. That of course lead me to other highly positive reviews of that unit. Based on my experience at the local retailer the SVS subs and the DT SC2000 were at whatever settings they had it at and signal coming from the same Marantz receiver. That little SC2000 impressed me in that might not be as loud, but plenty loud enough, handled that situation better. If it wasn't for the SC4000 in a different room having the vibrating plastic top removed to sound better I probably would have bought. I know at the other retailer that had the Golden Ear setup demonstration room I was impressed and it handled it great. At the time they only had the Golden Ear SuperSub XXL (opposing woofers and dual radiators) at $1999. Based on my hearing preferences I am leaning toward the passive radiator options. I will continue looking into it and probably save up a few months more and get 2 FF5s or extend my budget to $2000 at the very least with that time.
You are mistaken in thinking that the Super Cube subs are any where near the level of any SVS sub. Whatever BB is or has done to the settings is messed up if the SVS doesn't out perform the DefTech.

Buy an SVS sub directly from them, try it in your own room and hear for yourself.

I regret everyday having bought mine, especially for the price. I couldn't even get rid of it for 1/3 of list price when it was barely a year old.

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post #20 of 29 Old 01-31-2018, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
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@Kini62 I keep hearing that and may go down that route. Their 45 day return policy where they pay shipping both ways has me willing to give them a try at home. The fact that the SVS handled the test the exact same way as my Yamaha scared me away from them. Of the ones that @biga6761 has recommended I have ruled out the JTR out of it's shear size. The Rythmiks look really appealing. Size is a little large but I am going to make some cardboard mockups to see if I can make it work in my room. The PowerSoundAudio S3000i has me really intrigued. It's size and configuration I think would work perfect in the spot I ideally would want to put it. From what I was reading on their policies they have a 60 day return but I would be responsible for return shipping costs. That is a heavy unit that surely costs a lot for shipping. It has to work in my spot since not much space for other positions and that is a gamble. If there was a local retailer or same policy as SVS I might try it with less apprehension. I need to talk to the local dealer for Golden Ear and see what they say about getting ForceField 5 and their return policies. I have ruled out Definitive Tech since quality seems extremely questionable based on the vibrating plastic piece that had to be removed. There is still no denying they impressed me at the retailer. Good news / Bad news. I got my last form for taxes and went from getting $1100 back last year to owing $800 this year. So paying my taxes is coming from what I saved for a sub. Bad news but the Good news I will have more time to research and not rush into a decision while I save.

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post #21 of 29 Old 01-31-2018, 06:00 PM
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@Kini62 I keep hearing that and may go down that route. Their 45 day return policy where they pay shipping both ways has me willing to give them a try at home. The fact that the SVS handled the test the exact same way as my Yamaha scared me away from them. Of the ones that @biga6761 has recommended I have ruled out the JTR out of it's shear size. The Rythmiks look really appealing. Size is a little large but I am going to make some cardboard mockups to see if I can make it work in my room. The PowerSoundAudio S3000i has me really intrigued. It's size and configuration I think would work perfect in the spot I ideally would want to put it. From what I was reading on their policies they have a 60 day return but I would be responsible for return shipping costs. That is a heavy unit that surely costs a lot for shipping. It has to work in my spot since not much space for other positions and that is a gamble. If there was a local retailer or same policy as SVS I might try it with less apprehension. I need to talk to the local dealer for Golden Ear and see what they say about getting ForceField 5 and their return policies. I have ruled out Definitive Tech since quality seems extremely questionable based on the vibrating plastic piece that had to be removed. There is still no denying they impressed me at the retailer. Good news / Bad news. I got my last form for taxes and went from getting $1100 back last year to owing $800 this year. So paying my taxes is coming from what I saved for a sub. Bad news but the Good news I will have more time to research and not rush into a decision while I save.
Don't let the return shipping on the PSA sub deter you. Tom gets good/discounted rates on returns and that sub is tough to beat in terms of output per cubic inch. Even if you return it and it costs a few bucks (once you're ready) then you'll know for sure.

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post #22 of 29 Old 01-31-2018, 06:09 PM
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@Kini62 The Rythmiks look really appealing. Size is a little large but I am going to make some cardboard mockups to see if I can make it work in my room. The PowerSoundAudio S3000i has me really intrigued. It's size and configuration I think would work perfect in the spot I ideally would want to put it. From what I was reading on their policies they have a 60 day return but I would be responsible for return shipping costs. That is a heavy unit that surely costs a lot for shipping. It has to work in my spot since not much space for other positions and that is a gamble.
Here's the thing about return shipping costs.

If you buy from a brick-and-mortor outfit, you don't see the shipping cost, but its there, because the product had to get shipped to the store, and you are also paying for the showroom in the purchase price no matter what because its internalized overhead unless you end up returning the item. So if you intend on buying the product, the chances are you will pay more.

If you buy from a non-brick-and-mortor outfit with "free" return shipping, the price of the free return shipping is already in the product spread across the product line and internalized and you pay a portion of the return shipping even if you don't return it. And this policy encourages window shopping and increases costs across the product line, as PSA found out before they changed they return-shipping policy.

If you buy from a non-brick-and-mortor outfit that charges for return shipping, you don't pay for the showroom and you don't pay any share of return shipping if you keep the product. And this policy discourages window shopping. Now, if you really want to return the item, you have to pay shipping, but, IMO, that is better than paying for the cost up front that you might never use, especially since the policy should independently help keep overall product costs lower and more competitive.

Finally, Rythmik and PSA are solid companies with solid products; their subs will crush anything at Best Buy available for a similar price. So my pitch is don't let the threat of return shipping costs deter you from buying a superior product for less money, especially since the alternatives require you to pay return shipping costs up front, no matter what.
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post #23 of 29 Old 02-13-2018, 08:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Just a quick update. I was saving for a PSA S3000i that @biga6761 recommended. Well I kept looking and reading and talking to people rather than just wait. Tonight on PSA's outlet I found XS30se for $850 and ordered. I think the dual 15" woofers and 800 rms watt rating will be more than enough considering I am coming from an 8" woofer and 100 watts. I will update again once I get.

Just a side note. I was emailing back and forth with SVS and they were freaking awesome! I was strongly considering going with them but Tom V at PSA with live chat and email communication even during the Superbowl was above and beyond. Knowing he was part of the original SVS that help make them the success they are today helped a great deal.
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post #24 of 29 Old 02-20-2018, 08:06 AM
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To stay around your high end $1500, Id go with JL Audio E110. They are amazing for the price. I just completed and atmos home theather, in a 25 x 22 room and have 2 of these pushing out amazing sounding bass. I also have a PSB Sub300 which I also enjoy and is at a lower price point. Just giving some options
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It's Here! It's Here!

Holy Mother! This is a nice upgrade. Ran my Atmos demonstration files that exposed the ugliness of my old sub. The scene I described is a better rumble both felt and heard than what was even demonstrated to me in the local Golden Ear 7.4.4 Atmos demonstration room at a local retailer. One of the Atmos demonstration files is a scene from Insurgent. I have never seen the movie but that demo file sounded so terrible with my old sub. This new that scene is awesome now with lots of good rumble. I love the fact it not only gives me the upgrade I was looking for in theater content, but vastly improved my music content. I can now hear more distinct beats of the drum and bass plucks instead of a blended low. Now the search is on for affordable, good, narrow recliners to replace my futon couch.

Thank You again @biga6761 for showing me and getting me interested in the PSA S3000i. If it wasn't for that recommendation I would have never found the less powerful, but way more than enough for me, PSA XS-30se in the outlet for my ideal budget.

Thank You Tom V. for responding to me at 9:00pm when I saw the sub for sale in the outlet and arranging shipment so I can be home this day it arrived. That is customer service well above and beyond!
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post #26 of 29 Old 02-20-2018, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I thought I had attached the pictures. Lets try this again
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post #27 of 29 Old 02-20-2018, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Joshua Chmiel View Post
It's Here! It's Here!

Holy Mother! This is a nice upgrade. Ran my Atmos demonstration files that exposed the ugliness of my old sub. The scene I described is a better rumble both felt and heard than what was even demonstrated to me in the local Golden Ear 7.4.4 Atmos demonstration room at a local retailer. One of the Atmos demonstration files is a scene from Insurgent. I have never seen the movie but that demo file sounded so terrible with my old sub. This new that scene is awesome now with lots of good rumble. I love the fact it not only gives me the upgrade I was looking for in theater content, but vastly improved my music content. I can now hear more distinct beats of the drum and bass plucks instead of a blended low. Now the search is on for affordable, good, narrow recliners to replace my futon couch.

Thank You again @biga6761 for showing me and getting me interested in the PSA S3000i. If it wasn't for that recommendation I would have never found the less powerful, but way more than enough for me, PSA XS-30se in the outlet for my ideal budget.

Thank You Tom V. for responding to me at 9:00pm when I saw the sub for sale in the outlet and arranging shipment so I can be home this day it arrived. That is customer service well above and beyond!
Awesome Bro! These are the kind of stories that make my year. So glad cool you found the perfect fit for your size and budget as well as got a huge upgrade in the process. PSA really does make top notch gear that is only surpassed by the elite few. The XS-30se will be a very potent performer indeed in a room your size and should last you for many years to come as long as upgraditis doesn't reer it's head. All the better you have found an increase in sound quality all round too. So happy I could help brother and I hope you continue to enjoy your new proper badass sub for years to come. Hit me up if I can ever help with anything else or just to BS and talk AV.

I feel you and really think that Insurgent clip is one of the best and most overlooked clips in existence for demo's. There are multiple bass drops that reach into the single digits on the low end and some really great height effects also. Everytime I watch it on the 8-18's in my IB I have to put my PJ image back on my screen because it moves my whole PJ mount and PJ, which are attached to the ceiling, almost 6" to the right taking the image over halfway off the screen. It's the level of the bass drops that is so rare in such clips, that have extension that low. I have worked my way up to playing it back a reference with the subs +8db hot and though my sub system might be able to handle it run hotter the building my room is in I fear can not. The whole ceiling that my PJ is mounted to can be seen visually flexing several inches and is the cause of the PJ movement. I even went as far as attaching the mount to a board that spans 4 trusses and it still moves off the screen just the same because it's the whole ceiling trusses and all that are flexing. There are a few other clips that have a similar effect but none cause quite as much violent movement of the entire ceiling and PJ.

That Insurgent clip will forever be my final demo clip for guest because of how impressive it is in my room. I build up starting with all the heavy hitter clips and usually get a pretty strong reaction but finishing with that clip normally leaves people picking their jaw up off the floor as they shake their head in amazement at the pure power and violence of the ULF wobble. The lowest drop in the part where Tris is thrown from the building out the new hole she just made even has the power to bottom my dual BUttkickers if not set just so. Quite another rare feat in and of itself with the mere 1200 watts they share.

Please don't get me wrong there are clips that extend lower and with higher levels but the combo of all the sub 20hz bass and the level of that low bass is what makes this clip so impressive on my IB which is tuned to 11hz. To me this clip just never gets old.

Here are the SpecLab shots of the entire clip taken from my MLP with a Umik at -5MV. I'm still having trouble with clipping my soundcard no matter the level I take these captures, so the levels are not correct. Still this should give an idea of how strong this clip is and how damn low a big part of the bass extends. Just copious amounts of sub 20hz energy for realz. Love it.







Here's to you brother Chmiel and ending your sub search, happily. Enjoy!
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post #28 of 29 Old 02-21-2018, 01:15 PM
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Joshua,
can i ask you what crossover settings you have on your speakers ?

I have a Onkyo TZ-RZ920 with polk S15 front, S10 surr and back surr, and in ceiling speakers in a 7.1.2 config.
I'm in the process of upgrading a stock Onkyo sub with a SVS SB12-NSD (should be in by this Friday) and using the Amaze dolby Atmos demo.
the Onkyo AccuEQ set my front at 40Hz surrounds at 60hz and back surr at 80Hz, therefore I have very small amount of bass.
If I change the front to anything higher (60hz) I completely loose the "bird flying" moving effect in the demo and the wings flapping sound instead of rotating through the speakers , only comes out of the front left speaker.

Hopefully updating the sub will give me back the bass , while keeping the AccuEQ crossover settings that provide the atmos moving sound effects....

if anybody has any input of course it would be appreciated.

Last edited by stoca01; 02-21-2018 at 01:24 PM.
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post #29 of 29 Old 02-21-2018, 05:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoca01 View Post
Joshua,
can i ask you what crossover settings you have on your speakers ?

I have a Onkyo TZ-RZ920 with polk S15 front, S10 surr and back surr, and in ceiling speakers in a 7.1.2 config.
I'm in the process of upgrading a stock Onkyo sub with a SVS SB12-NSD (should be in by this Friday) and using the Amaze dolby Atmos demo.
the Onkyo AccuEQ set my front at 40Hz surrounds at 60hz and back surr at 80Hz, therefore I have very small amount of bass.
If I change the front to anything higher (60hz) I completely loose the "bird flying" moving effect in the demo and the wings flapping sound instead of rotating through the speakers , only comes out of the front left speaker.

Hopefully updating the sub will give me back the bass , while keeping the AccuEQ crossover settings that provide the atmos moving sound effects....

if anybody has any input of course it would be appreciated.
When I first setup with my old sub my Onkyo TX-RZ720 set my fronts as full range my rears at 50, center at 90 and my top at 120 with my sub at 120. When playing material I had localization issues and played with the settings until I found what I liked. When I tried again with the new sub it had the same settings but my fronts were now at 120. I didn't like how it sounded and localization again. I ended up my fronts at 40, rears at 50, and I bumped my center and top down to 80 and set my sub at 80. All my speakers are rated to go down further than I have them. EQ had all my levels at 0 except center at +0.5. I changed my sub to -1.5. If I had better room placement I probably wouldn't need so high but I have it where it fits best. I don't want the gain on the sub too high. I love the sound I have and the atmos demos really show it off. I find Lucy and Transformers to be a couple favorites for Atmos with Blade Runner 2049 and Kong Skull Island for bass fun.
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