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post #481 of 1600 Old 08-10-2018, 05:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
Hi Mike,

I must admit you have me riveted to your every post! Your thinking process and ability to clearly convey the hypothesis being discussed is remarkable. What you are describing is nothing short of a breakthrough in the understanding of Human Hearing as it relates to the subjective "Heavinss" of a subject Subwoffer FR. The revelation that this "Heavyiness" presence is not conditional upon volume (gain) level and/or Max Output numbers. I could never put my finger on it, but somehow I knew the Subs Max Output did not tell the whole story. And the Max Output numbers by itself might just be entirely misleading . The subs native tune can be used to surmise if a particular Sub will sound "Heavy" or "Light" in a comparrision situation. Even at very low volume levels I can still feel the depth and weight of my Subs. Looking and comparing Sub output graphs like you did will tell us more about how a sub will perform in real world terms, and should give us new tools to employ when helping others chose between Subs to suit their particular needs/tastes. You certainly helped me further understand how to compare a subs native tuning frequency, from one sub to the next. You provided a light bulb moment when you informed us that this Native tuning curve exist at all output levels. This I did not fully understand nor comprehend.

Keep up the great thinking Mike. You are expanding our shared understanding of bass and how each specific sub has its own unique sound signature. Additionally you have discovered and shared with us a new method of how to see this performance trait in the Sub native tuning graphs. Very intriguing reading. My compliments Sir!

If you have the time and inclination, I would love to hear your analysis of the 2400ULF Native FR.

Thank you very much for the compliments, Adam! They mean a lot to me! I have to admit that I am pretty excited about how some things have fallen into place for me lately, starting with the linchpin concept that a subwoofer's native response doesn't really change, irrespective of volume level, unless we manipulate it with internal or external DSP.

Sometimes, we don't know exactly what we know, and that's where writing-out explanations helps us to clarify our own thinking. Like you, I have been too fixated on max output. I have been making distinctions between subwoofers which emphasize mid-bass frequencies more, and subwoofers which emphasize low-frequencies more, for quite a while. But, subconsciously at least, I was associating the differences between those subwoofers with higher volume levels, as if that were the only time that the differences would really be noticeable. And, I have seen most other people on AVS making the same conscious, or unconscious, assumption.

Explicitly recognizing that the actual frequency response of a subwoofer is not volume-dependent allows me to see that there could be noticeable differences in sound between a subwoofer which emphasizes mid-bass, versus one that emphasizes low-bass, even at moderate volume levels. And, that has some implications even for music listening, and might explain much of the difference that some people might hear between sealed and ported subs.

Subwoofers which play low-frequencies relatively louder with respect to mid-bass frequencies would be a pretty good way to describe the difference between ported subs and sealed subs. And, as you said, this could also certainly help to explain what you have heard in moving from your PB13's, with the Bash amp, to Cap 2400's--even at moderate volume levels. (I will try to tell you what I see of the Cap 2400's native response a little later.)

I think that looking at the overall slope of the frequency response, rather than just max output, may have significant implications for those of us looking to upgrade. Max output deals with total SPL, and that's still important. But, from my observation, relatively few people are upgrading just because they can't play their subwoofers loudly enough. That certainly does happen, but I believe that part of the reason many of us are pushing our subwoofers to fairly high volume levels to start with is so that we can hear low-frequencies better. And, I believe that most people who are upgrading are already aware that they want to hear more low-bass.

Sometimes we want to hear those low-frequencies better just because we really like bass, and because we can't hear those frequencies in quite the same equilibrium as we can the higher bass frequencies. Sometimes, it is specifically in order to emphasize the low-bass special effects that make action movies and blockbusters so exciting. The low-bass there can be a little bit addictive. But, whatever the reason, I believe that most people upgrade their subwoofers in order to emphasize low-frequencies more, and if that is true, then paying attention to how a particular subwoofer plays low-frequencies in relation to mid-bass frequencies is very important.

It is important because that relationship won't change much. It will always be the subwoofer's native response, and depending on room size (and the resulting room gain), low-frequencies may be emphasized too much, or not enough, almost irrespective of listening level. And, on the other hand, if someone is upgrading just for more total SPL, or for more mid-bass SPL, then looking at both the max output and the native frequency response of subwoofers will still be helpful. One of the things that I also think is especially important to recognize is that we are likely to have more mechanisms (such as cascading crossovers) to emphasize mid-bass frequencies, than we may have to emphasize low-bass frequencies. So, having a better understanding of a subwoofer's native response could be a real factor in our ultimate subwoofer selection.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #482 of 1600 Old 08-10-2018, 06:03 PM
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There has been an interesting discussion on this thread of late, the one centered around 'can you have too much sub' (count me among those who feel you can over do it). There is another side of the story though, the one where a person gets the 'what ifs'. There's a sweet spot somewhere in the middle of the extremes which is decided by factors such as budget, preferences, circumstances, WAF, etc. With that in mind...

If there was a legitimate thought in your head that said "I wonder if the FVX15 wouldn't be better" it might be a good idea to take a step back and reassess. Upgrading sounds like something you want to do so now comes the determination on just how far do you want to go. A quick decision is usually a costly one.

The what ifs, can be a very nagging voice


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post #483 of 1600 Old 08-11-2018, 07:23 AM
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Hi @mthomas47 ,


Or shall we call you the "Mad Bass Scientist"? I think that fits! Your work to discuss, convey, describe and help us all to better understand how Subs work and exactly how they work in the FR domain is and continues to be invaluable. Especially the way you have discovered the "Cascading Crossover" setup and relationship. Thereby better separating the bass workload via the engagement of structured crossover settings between our AVR's, Main Speakers and Subs. I had no idea something like this was a "thing" let alone possible. As you know I have been experimenting with the "Cascading Crossover" setup on my system for about a week now. I am not yet ready to report my discoveries or impressions. But I can say now, without any hesitation, this process does result in a new sound stage as it relates to the Low Bass range of sound. Something magical is definitely happening!!!!

Then you hit us with the concept of "Native Frequency Response Tune" of a Sub remains in tack throughout the Subs full Volume/Gain range!!!! What? Basically telling us that no matter how hard we may push our subs, they will actually never operate or produce frequencies below or above the Native FR of the Sub design. This does not discount room mode actuation and/or attenuation.

You have been on a Barn Burning here. All of this new understanding content is of incredible value to the Home Enthusiast. I hope to see this added to your Sub optimization Guide. Each concept individually, A light bulb moment most definitely. Put together and they lay bare the truth behind the fog of reading and understanding what a Sub's FR graph tells us. Yeah I agree Max SPL tells us something. But it gives us the answer to the wrong question. The Native FR is the Money Shot! Knowing this is what we will hear and feel at all volumes is the answer to the right question.

Rubbing my heavily used and no longer round, Crystal Ball. I foresee you developing a "Heavy-ness" Sub scoring methodology. You have already done the theoretical hard work, now all that remains is a practical means/method of using this analogy to compare one sub to another.

A short story about my journey. As you already outlined above. I moved to the Dual 2400ULF's from Dual SVS PB13 Ultras. But there were a few steps before all of that. I started out with some Klipsch Subs (forget the models) and moved to a pair of SVS NSD 12's. I was looking for something with my subs and I wrongly thought it was just "Loudness and Volume". If I can get subs that play louder I will get what I am looking for! I could not have been more wrong. The PB13's were incredible Subs and played far louder than I could tolerate in my room. But I had an empty feeling, something was missing???? I was stuck. I figured and blamed the problem on my room mode limitations, and lived with it for years. But it was not my room, it was the Native Tuning of the PB13's. Not their ability to fill the room with reference and beyond levels of sound. You convinced me the JTR 2400ULF's would change my world. I bit hard, and they did!

Fast forward to present. A pair of 2400's tuned at 14hz. With once again more SPL than I can use or need. As I was hooking them up and doing all the set up stuff I had this worry running around in my mind. That I had just spent $5K on subs that are just going to be louder than what I have now (PB13's), and the subs I have now (PB13's) already go louder than I ever use. Think buying a Car that can go 180MPH. Cool right? But are you going to use all the Horse Power? Do you drive the car you already have as fast as it can go? If not, then why buy an even faster car? That was my thinking at the time. Bear with me a little more. And then.....Did I just buy MORE subs that will go louder, when I already don't use the full capacity of my current subs? Can you see the conundrum ??? But the new JTR's were hear and I was committed at this point. No free returns and shipping was not cheap...Onward I went.

The first demo day with the 2400's removed all my worries and doubts. I knew immediately that these subs were hitting the sweet spot that all previous subs did not. It was the weight or thickness of the notes/sound. At all volume (gain) levels. They hit deep and hard even when the volume (gain) is at -36dbs. I can enjoy this effect/sensation even at low volume It was an OMG moment for me. The bass was totally different. Words did not describe the sensations. But I knew something was different and it was not the Max Volume capacity differences alone.

Until this day, I really had no way to describe why. I recall reading about a good AVS Friend of ours @chucky7 being excited and jubilant about achieving "Port Wind" and how that added to his entertainment value of his subs. I tried to reproduce this with my 2400ULF's and was unsuccessful. One, they got so loud I could not bear it. Two, they never produced any noticeable wind. I guess that puts me in a different category. Wimpy Bass category. I barely drive my subs. They limp along maybe at 20% capacity (calculated). I rarely if ever drive my system to anywhere near "Reference" Am I missing something, I would ask myself??? Should I just crank up the volume and suffer the consequences to hear what these 2400's can do? So many questions unanswered.

Until now that is. Thanks to @mthomas47 incredible analytical brain and writing skills, I now know I am always hearing the difference of Heavy/thick/deep/pressure bass at any volume and I do not need to crank up the volume to enjoy what these subs can do. The difference is baked in. You will hear/feel it at any volume (gain) levels. A breakthrough moment in my understanding and I suspect I am not alone in this.

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post #484 of 1600 Old 08-11-2018, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
Hi @mthomas47 ,


Or shall we call you the "Mad Bass Scientist"? I think that fits! Your work to discuss, convey, describe and help us all to better understand how Subs work and exactly how they work in the FR domain is and continues to be invaluable. Especially the way you have discovered the "Cascading Crossover" setup and relationship. Thereby better separating the bass workload via the engagement of structured crossover settings between our AVR's, Main Speakers and Subs. I had no idea something like this was a "thing" let alone possible. As you know I have been experimenting with the "Cascading Crossover" setup on my system for about a week now. I am not yet ready to report my discoveries or impressions. But I can say now, without any hesitation, this process does result in a new sound stage as it relates to the Low Bass range of sound. Something magical is definitely happening!!!!

Then you hit us with the concept of "Native Frequency Response Tune" of a Sub remains in tack throughout the Subs full Volume/Gain range!!!! What? Basically telling us that no matter how hard we may push our subs, they will actually never operate or produce frequencies below or above the Native FR of the Sub design. This does not discount room mode actuation and/or attenuation.

You have been on a Barn Burning here. All of this new understanding content is of incredible value to the Home Enthusiast. I hope to see this added to your Sub optimization Guide. Each concept individually, A light bulb moment most definitely. Put together and they lay bare the truth behind the fog of reading and understanding what a Sub's FR graph tells us. Yeah I agree Max SPL tells us something. But it gives us the answer to the wrong question. The Native FR is the Money Shot! Knowing this is what we will hear and feel at all volumes is the answer to the right question.

The first demo day with the 2400's removed all my worries and doubts. I knew immediately that these subs were hitting the sweet spot that all previous subs did not. It was the weight or thickness of the notes/sound. At all volume (gain) levels. They hit deep and hard even when the volume (gain) is at -36dbs. I can enjoy this effect/sensation even at low volume It was an OMG moment for me. The bass was totally different. Words did not describe the sensations. But I knew something was different and it was not the Max Volume capacity differences alone.

Until this day, I really had no way to describe why. I recall reading about a good AVS Friend of ours @chucky7 being excited and jubilant about achieving "Port Wind" and how that added to his entertainment value of his subs. I tried to reproduce this with my 2400ULF's and was unsuccessful. One, they got so loud I could not bear it. Two, they never produced any noticeable wind. I guess that puts me in a different category. Wimpy Bass category. I barely drive my subs. They limp along maybe at 20% capacity (calculated). I rarely if ever drive my system to anywhere near "Reference" Am I missing something, I would ask myself??? Should I just crank up the volume and suffer the consequences to hear what these 2400's can do? So many questions unanswered.

Until now that is. I now know I am always hearing the difference of Heavy/thick/deep/pressure bass at any volume and I do not need to crank up the volume to enjoy what these subs can do. The difference is baked in. You will hear/feel it at any volume (gain) levels. A breakthrough moment in my understanding and I suspect I am not alone in this.

Hi Adam,

Mad Bass Scientist! I like that!

Thank you again for the compliments, and I really enjoyed reading your post about the journey with your Cap 2400's. But, you are giving me too much credit, especially with respect to cascading crossovers. The idea has been around for a while. For instance @JimWilson said that he has used them for some time. I only regret that I didn't think to investigate the idea sooner, because I really like the effect. And, I am very anxious to hear your more detailed report on their use. I thought that the idea would be particularly applicable to your electrostatic panels, since they have such a distinctive sound quality.

I will take some credit for explaining the use of cascading crossovers on the thread, and including them in the Guide. But, that is the whole point of the Guide to me--sharing helpful information and insights with each other. This latest idea is also kind of exciting to me. Others have probably gotten there first as well. But, it's a new idea to us, and we can enjoy it just as much even if the ground has already been plowed before. The important thing is to get these ideas in one place, where everyone can benefit from them. And, I really like the fact that the Guide is continuing to evolve in that respect. Ideas and insights do come in clusters sometimes, so that part's cool.

I could sense some of your hesitation in taking the plunge with the Cap 2400's. It was a large expenditure, and as your friend, I took the responsibility of advising you pretty seriously. Knowing the extent of your concern makes me feel a little bit humble that you trusted me. I know that you also talked to some other people, but it still wouldn't have been much fun if you hadn't really liked them. But, from things I heard you saying (and not saying) I was sure that it was more low-bass you were looking for, and those subwoofers certainly fit the bill for that.

As we give other people advice on subwoofers, I think it's important to realize that not everyone hears bass frequencies in the same way, and that not everyone will like the same amount of weight or heaviness to the low-bass. I think that the real key is to identify the goals which someone else is trying to achieve, even if they aren't clearly articulated. The situations that frustrate me are the ones where someone truly doesn't know what he is looking for, so he leans in completely different directions from moment-to-moment. There are several subwoofer threads like that going right now. I think you actually did know what you wanted at some level, but just didn't have quite the right words for it at the time.

In any event, I will try to add a new subsection on Comparing Subwoofer Performance to Section VIII of the Guide sometime during the next few days. That will make it easier for people to use in the context of the section on subwoofer selection. Ray @darthray made the point to me recently that the Guide was becoming awfully long and detailed for real beginners to audio/HT. That's a concern for me too, but I don't see any alternative if we want the Guide to have the broadest appeal and usefulness that it can.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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Hi @mthomas47 ,

Your guidance and advice with regard to my Sub purchases and later on buying the Martin Logan ESL-X's has been nothing short of Nirvana for me. I have always dreamed of having such an amazing sound system. However, I lacked the knowledge and understanding to know what I wanted and how to get there. Your opinion and advice helped me pull the trigger with a greater degree of confidence. Rest assured Mike. I am as happy with my system as possible. In retrospect, I think the matching of the 2400's with the ML Electrostatic panels resulted in an dynamically diversive and captivating sound stage. I finally have a system that can effortlessly and faithfully reproduce the entire audiophile frequency range. The highs are clean, crisp and precise but never harsh or fatiguing. When the ML's transition to the low end of the sound spectrum, the JTR Subs engage with rich, heavy, and deep lows down to single digits. The "Cascading Crossover" setup you recommended specifically for my system, resulted in seamless FR transitions. Producing increased clarity of the mid-bass FR than ever before. The harmonizing is tranquilizing. As I write this I am listening to the new "Alan Parsons Project" Bluray with DTS-HD Master Audio. The Music never sounded so amazing, real and immersive. I get chills up my spine, and that is a rare sensation for me!!! Don't ever doubt your ability to give excellent advice to others. Kudos Sir! I am ever in your debt for this. A rare find you are.

Yeah these concepts may have been discussed before and perhaps you did not personally discover them. But you damn sure interped these concepts into understandable terms and relationships. Your ability to absorb highly complicated technical data and information, and then re-translate into simple to comprehend bites of knowledge for the regular Joe to easily understand is remarkable. You have some serious communications talent and skills Brother! Your modesty is the icing on the cake.

In regards to the Sub Optimization Guide getting too long and complicated. I have a suggestion for you to consider. Break it into a two part guide. The first part generally discusses what to do and how to do it. No background discussions, just the instructions and advice of how to optimize your subs. Leaving the detailed theory and technical why it should be done this way, and why it works like this verbiage, for the Second detailed reading section.

You could use "linked-footnotes" for each section to refer a reader to more details on a particular topic if they wish to delve deeper into the abyss of understating this stuff. I know this represents more work, and loath putting more on your plate. I suspect you have already considered this path or something similuar. In the end, if the Guide gets too long and complicated it will no longer be a Guide right? So, breaking it into two parts was inevitable. Knowing your desire to push for perfection...Afterall you do have a "Global" following!

We are indeed quite fortunate to have you here making the ever so valuable contributions to our shared knowledge of this elusive bass science. Your personal revelations are like wisdom bombs that keep exploding in our heads!!!
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post #486 of 1600 Old 08-11-2018, 02:07 PM
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The "Cascading Crossover" setup you recommended specifically for my system, resulted in seamless FR transitions. Producing increased clarity of the mid-bass FR than ever before. The harmonizing is tranquilizing. As I write this I am listening to the new "Alan Parsons Project" Bluray with DTS-HD Master Audio. The Music never sounded so amazing, real and immersive. I get chills up my spine, and that is a rare sensation for me!!!
Somehow I'm not surprised to hear you say that. Glad it worked out so well. It's always nice when a plan comes together.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
Yeah these concepts may have been discussed before and perhaps you did not personally discover them. But you damn sure interped these concepts into understandable terms and relationships. Your ability to absorb highly complicated technical data and information, and then re-translate into simple to comprehend bites of knowledge for the regular Joe to easily understand is remarkable. You have some serious communications talent and skills Brother! Your modesty is the icing on the cake.
+1

When I asked Mike Lang to turn this thread into a sticky it was because the guide represented a very solid piece of work that I felt could help countless people. It seemed destined to be updated on a regular basis, further enhancing its value, but I honestly never anticipated it was going to become what it has. It went from solid work to an extraordinary piece. And as you noted, the time and effort he puts into his replies is amazing. Tie the two together and you have a person who has made a very significant contribution to AVS.
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post #487 of 1600 Old 08-11-2018, 05:05 PM
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Hi @mthomas47,

Your guidance and advice with regard to my Sub purchases and later on buying the Martin Logan ESL-X's has been nothing short of Nirvana for me. I have always dreamed of having such an amazing sound system. However, I lacked the knowledge and understanding to know what I wanted and how to get there. Your opinion and advice helped me pull the trigger with a greater degree of confidence. Rest assured Mike. I am as happy with my system as possible. In retrospect, I think the matching of the 2400's with the ML Electrostatic panels resulted in an dynamically diversive and captivating sound stage. I finally have a system that can effortlessly and faithfully reproduce the entire audiophile frequency range. The highs are clean, crisp and precise but never harsh or fatiguing. When the ML's transition to the low end of the sound spectrum, the JTR Subs engage with rich, heavy, and deep lows down to single digits. The "Cascading Crossover" setup you recommended specifically for my system, resulted in seamless FR transitions. Producing increased clarity of the mid-bass FR than ever before. The harmonizing is tranquilizing. As I write this I am listening to the new "Alan Parsons Project" Bluray with DTS-HD Master Audio. The Music never sounded so amazing, real and immersive. I get chills up my spine, and that is a rare sensation for me!!! Don't ever doubt your ability to give excellent advice to others. Kudos Sir! I am ever in your debt for this. A rare find you are.

Yeah these concepts may have been discussed before and perhaps you did not personally discover them. But you damn sure interped these concepts into understandable terms and relationships. Your ability to absorb highly complicated technical data and information, and then re-translate into simple to comprehend bites of knowledge for the regular Joe to easily understand is remarkable. You have some serious communications talent and skills Brother! Your modesty is the icing on the cake.

In regards to the Sub Optimization Guide getting too long and complicated. I have a suggestion for you to consider. Break it into a two part guide. The first part generally discusses what to do and how to do it. No background discussions, just the instructions and advice of how to optimize your subs. Leaving the detailed theory and technical why it should be done this way, and why it works like this verbiage, for the Second detailed reading section.

You could use "linked-footnotes" for each section to refer a reader to more details on a particular topic if they wish to delve deeper into the abyss of understating this stuff. I know this represents more work, and loath putting more on your plate. I suspect you have already considered this path or something similuar. In the end, if the Guide gets too long and complicated it will no longer be a Guide right? So, breaking it into two parts was inevitable. Knowing your desire to push for perfection...Afterall you do have a "Global" following!

We are indeed quite fortunate to have you here making the ever so valuable contributions to our shared knowledge of this elusive bass science. Your personal revelations are like wisdom bombs that keep exploding in our heads!!!

While, I like the idea of linked-footnotes.

I think, the amount of work, require to do this, from mthomas47, would extreme.

Maybe using a different color or font, for the basics, and the rest the way it is.
Of course, a note at the beginning of the Guide, stating that the paragraph in that color/font are the basics, and the rest is more information's, about this subject.

While still lot's of work, it might be simpler to highlight, the important points.


Ray
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post #488 of 1600 Old 08-11-2018, 05:22 PM
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Just to let you know.


Tonight was the first movie, I tried with cascading settings.
I follow mthomas47, quick and dirty instructions on a previous post.


While, it was a new movie with no previous experience listening to-it.
And also did not, went back and forward the two settings.


I am happy to report, that my first experience was very good
I am leaving-it at that, and future listening will, more likely concur, that cascading the frequencies setting is the way to go.
Maybe not, the best purist way, but definitely more exciting,
And after all, when watching a movie and listening to music's, isn't what we want


Ray

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Lightbulb Guide Edits!

First, I would like to thank everyone who has been so supportive about some of the recent discussions, and I especially appreciate the nice things that Adam and Jim said. I hope you know that I don't take those compliments lightly!

I will continue to think about the suggestions that Adam and Ray have made. Ray's suggestion to color code some simplified summaries at the beginning of sections might be workable, but I don't know. I really like for people to be able to read the Guide in a fairly uninterrupted narrative format. To me, that is part of what makes it relatively readable. But, I will keep thinking about it, and meanwhile, if anyone has suggestions for expanding the Cliff Notes in the first post, that would be an easy way to help simplify some very basic advice.

I went ahead and added the new Subsection entitled Comparing Subwoofer Performance. It is now the second subsection in Section VIII. I had already spent so much time on the post I based that subsection on, that editing it for the Guide went pretty quickly. I'm sure that I will continue to tweak it, and add to it, but it is ready for it's close-up now.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #490 of 1600 Old 08-12-2018, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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If anyone has compared the new subsection of the Guide to the post from Friday that led to it, you will see how much that single subsection has evolved since I first started to write it. I believe it is easily twice as long now. And, it strikes me that even that single subsection reveals the difficulty involved in having some sort of abbreviated Guide.

I don't add all the detail to the Guide that I do just because I am wordy. I keep thinking of things that people may want to know, or exceptions I should point-out, or I want to indicate where in the Guide a particular issue was discussed in more detail. And, I never know who is going to be reading the Guide. I certainly want it to be appealing to the complete newcomer, if possible. But, I also have to try to make what I say reasonably bulletproof, if someone more sophisticated is reading it, and especially if an audio professional or subwoofer maker decides to look at something. I really don't want to be putting-out bad or incomplete information if I can help it.

Unfortunately, that means more detail, not less. And, I really can't think of a way to simplify it without screwing it up. So many of the help me buy a subwoofer threads, for instance, seem to me to be a long series of partially correct, or inapplicable, suggestions and explanations. And, to do anything else is way more time-consuming than most people would want to write, even if they had all the information they needed at their fingertips. The Guide puts that information at everyone's fingertips, including mine, because I can't remember everything in the Guide, either.

For people who want some quick calibration tips, there are the Cliff Notes in the first post. For someone who wants to know what crossovers are typically used, or whether it is normal to add subwoofer boosts, those issues are also covered. For someone who is content to get random advice on buying subwoofers, there are innumerable subwoofer buying threads started every week. I mentioned to Ray that I think the Guide is somewhat self-selecting, in that people who read it want to understand why, and they probably aren't content with the typical just do this, or just do that, advice that they find on most threads.

Of course, I hope that the Guide is widely read. For me at least, though, the real strength of the Guide lies in its thoroughness and its attention to detail, rather than in its simplicity. I have tried to make it as readable as I can for the benefit of all of us, but I really do believe that there will be a self-selecting aspect to who reads it, no matter how simple or abbreviated I ever tried to make it. So, I would rather err on the side of completeness. I just wanted to share my thoughts on this with my friends on the thread.

Regards,
Mike
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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #491 of 1600 Old 08-12-2018, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Just to let you know.


Tonight was the first movie, I tried with cascading settings.
I follow mthomas47, quick and dirty instructions on a previous post.


While, it was a new movie with no previous experience listening to-it.
And also did not, went back and forward the two settings.


I am happy to report, that my first experience was very good
I am leaving-it at that, and future listening will, more likely concur, that cascading the frequencies setting is the way to go.
Maybe not, the best purist way, but definitely more exciting,
And after all, when watching a movie and listening to music's, isn't what we want


Ray

Well, tonight was a second shot at it.


First movie last night, been "12 Braves" on BD, and tonight was "The Great Wall" on 4K.
My second viewing, was even better than the first one
Man, did those War Battle Drums, ever pound


I had to recheck my settings, to make sure that the DEQ, was still set to Off, and since I was at it, double check that the sub/s LFE were set at 90Hz.


So far, so good


Ray
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Well, tonight was a second shot at it.


First movie last night, been "12 Braves" on BD, and tonight was "The Great Wall" on 4K.
So set the sub to the same xover as the speakers? I read the subsection and that's what I deciphered

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post #493 of 1600 Old 08-12-2018, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian_Barros View Post
So set the sub to the same xover as the speakers? I read the subsection and that's what I deciphered

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

My subs are set at 80Hz on my AVP (Audio Video Processor, same go for an AVR, receiver).
My speakers are also all set at 80HZ, even my towers (more clean power to them, and let the subs do, what they were meant to do, and when very low and loud bass frequencies are played, the towers can handle them better [play much cleaner and louder], since no crossover is a brick wall).


From there, I set my subs for 90Hz for LFE on the AVP, and on the subs frequencies response, use to be 120Hz on both.
Also have my DEQ set to Off, this is just a preference, many like-it On.
Bass wise, I am 2Db above reference level calibration, again many like-it even hotter.


Ray
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
My subs are set at 80Hz on my AVP Audio Video Processor, same go for an AVR, receiver).
My speakers are also all set at 80HZ, even my towers ( more clean power to them, and let the subs do, what they were meant to do
The same as your speakers?

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post #495 of 1600 Old 08-12-2018, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
My subs are set at 80Hz on my AVP (Audio Video Processor, same go for an AVR, receiver).
My speakers are also all set at 80HZ, even my towers ( more clean power to them, and let the subs do, what they were meant to do, and when very bass frequencies, the towers can handle them better [play much cleaner and louder], since no crossover is a brick wall).


From there, I set my subs for 90Hz for LFE on the AVP, and on the subs frequencies response, use to be 120Hz on both.
Also have my DEQ set to Off, this is just a preference, many like-it On.
Bass wise, I am 2Db above reference level calibration, again many like-it even hotter.


Ray
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_Barros View Post
The same as your speakers?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

See my above quote, I got many computer issues.
This site keep loosing connection on me
So I got to post a few line, then edit.


Ray
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post #496 of 1600 Old 08-12-2018, 10:02 PM
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Cascading crossovers(CC). Are you guys checking your FR after doing this?

I have and in my experience, it can make dramatic changes to the FR and usually for the worse(if you already have your system "dialed in"). It will cause dips and peaks in a previous smooth FR. I would be interested to see people post their FR if they have measured before and after.

The "sub distance tweak" will need to be used again to get a smooth alignment with the mains or center, whichever is your preference. Your mileage may vary or maybe this has been covered but reading the section on this it appears as something that can just be done with no effect to the FR. But that has not been my experience so do as you see fit.

With that said I am not saying cascade crossovers is bad just that I would go in and verify what happened to your FR and adjust the sub distance to smooth the peaks and dips that are there now. You will still get the benefits from CC but even more so after you smooth the FR back out.

Edit I just hooked up a sub up quick as I hadn't been running one(messing with things) and set one up and took some FR in REW and here are the results. Red is pre CC. You can see just doing the CC(green) leave a pretty big dip around 70hz. But then going in and adding 2'(blue) to the sub brings it back up.

Realize this was a quick setup/mock up so I could post graphs. But you get the idea.
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post #497 of 1600 Old 08-13-2018, 10:42 AM
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Hi,
I have read this thread with great interest and have some questions regarding square footage and subwoofers.

I attach a floor plan layout of my apartment and how it is furnished.

My movie room is at the top of the floor plan and as you can see it has an open layout with the left side being open to the rest of the apartment.
The black dotted lines are where I have hung black stage curtains to properly black out any stray light in the movie room.
The blue squares are where my speakers are wall mounted and the bigger blue square in the top left corner is the position of my current subwoofer.
(This is the preferred subwoofer placement after doing a sub-crawl)
The light blue circles are my ceiling speakers and the red line is where my screen is.
The square labeled AVR is where my Marantz AVR and HTPC are placed, the square labeled desk is where the PC screen is.

My current subwoofer is REL QUAKE II (8 inch, 100 watt, Frequency Response: 23Hz to 150Hz)
My main speakers are LINN UNIK (88db, Frequency response: 80Hz to 20KHz ± 3dB)

The cubic feet of the movie room within the black stage curtains are 1270 cubic feet.
However the entire open floor plan when closing the doors to the WC, bedroom and room are 3602 cubic feet.


How should I think when deciding on buying new subwoofers?
Do I need to take the whole open space into account, 3602 cubic feet, when scouting for new subwoofers.

My current thinking is to buy a pair of SVS SB2000 and put them nearby the front left and front right speakers.



Best regards,

//Peter





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Speakers: Linn Unik for Front, Center, Front high and surround back. M&K M4T for Surround. Elipson Planet M for Top Middle.
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Originally Posted by arcspin View Post
Hi,
I have read this thread with great interest and have some questions regarding square footage and subwoofers.

I attach a floor plan layout of my apartment and how it is furnished.

My movie room is at the top of the floor plan and as you can see it has an open layout with the left side being open to the rest of the apartment.
The black dotted lines are where I have hung black stage curtains to properly black out any stray light in the movie room.
The blue squares are where my speakers are wall mounted and the bigger blue square in the top left corner is the position of my current subwoofer.
(This is the preferred subwoofer placement after doing a sub-crawl)
The light blue circles are my ceiling speakers and the red line is where my screen is.
The square labeled AVR is where my Marantz AVR and HTPC are placed, the square labeled desk is where the PC screen is.

My current subwoofer is REL QUAKE II (8 inch, 100 watt, Frequency Response: 23Hz to 150Hz)
My main speakers are LINN UNIK (88db, Frequency response: 80Hz to 20KHz ± 3dB)

The cubic feet of the movie room within the black stage curtains are 1270 cubic feet.
However the entire open floor plan when closing the doors to the WC, bedroom and room are 3602 cubic feet.

How should I think when deciding on buying new subwoofers?
Do I need to take the whole open space into account, 3602 cubic feet, when scouting for new subwoofers.

My current thinking is to buy a pair of SVS SB2000 and put them nearby the front left and front right speakers.

Best regards,

//Peter

Hi Peter,

Welcome to the thread! Your question is one that doesn't have a definitive answer, but I will give you my opinion. I believe that the room gain that you will get will be quite similar to what you would get in about an enclosed 1300^3 space. You will not get the feeling of physical pressurization against your body that comes from strong low-bass in a sealed room that size. But, I believe that with respect to room mode gain, the partial wall at the bottom left corner of your room, and the partial wall and fireplace at the bottom right corner of the room, will create axial and tangential room modes that are dependent on the geometry of that 12' by 12' space. At the worst, I would calculate the room as extending to the wall of the bathroom.

To be clear about what I am saying here, bass frequencies will certainly go through the blackout curtains as if they aren't there. And, some of them will go through the walls and floor and ceiling in the same way. But, others will strike an opposing wall, or a partial wall, and ricochet backwards, creating a room mode which will influence the frequency response. Some of those room modes will amplify the lower bass frequencies, especially below ~30Hz in a room that size, causing room gain.

I think that your plan to start with two SB2000's is a very good one. If, for whatever reason, they don't give you quite as much low-frequency performance as you would like, I hope that you would be able to have a free-trial period. For instance, you could also try PB2000's. I honestly think that the sealed SB2000's will be enough for that space, especially coming from the single 8" REL subwoofer. But, low-bass can be a little bit addictive, and predicting exactly how much of it someone else is going to like can be difficult.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #499 of 1600 Old 08-13-2018, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arcspin View Post
How should I think when deciding on buying new subwoofers?

Your question prompts me to "think" performance given the space your sub will see and interact with rather than usage/purpose. Mike appears to have responded to your question based on the space parameter as well.. I only mention this because it appears your primary usage/interest is movies (PJ and large screen). If this is the case, you may also want to consider a ported (PB rather than SB) sub rather that sealed. Most movie enthusiasts love their LFE and gravitate toward ported subs. Then again, perhaps apartment living and space requirements may be constraints. Just wanted to provide an alternative thought.
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post #500 of 1600 Old 08-13-2018, 12:56 PM
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What are your feelings on sub and speaker break-in? There seems to be varying opinions.

I haven't touched any of my audio settings now for a couple weeks and I swear the system sounded better this weekend.

We watched Wonder Woman on Sunday in 4K with Dolby Atmos. The wife and I watched this about 3-4 weeks ago, but my son wanted to watch it so we watched it again. The audio was amazing! The battle scene at the end shook the house, was blowing my pant legs around, and was jaw dropping!

I feel like all the speakers sounded better and the subs performed better. It was quite noticeable. As we watched it at the same volume and I haven't changed any settings in a couple weeks I concluded that the speakers/Subs must be getting better as they break-in.

It actually had me re-thinking my statement from a couple days ago that I should have got PB-2000's instead. My ears are still ringing today. I can't imagine ever turning it up louder than that.

Thoughts?

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post #501 of 1600 Old 08-13-2018, 01:09 PM
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Hi and thank you both for a swift response.

The partial wall in the left corner is 24 inches and the same goes for the fireplace.
I didn´t think does two partial walls would do much in regards of reflecting sound waves but it is encouraging to read that those two walls might actually help a little bit.
Great insight.

The room extending to the bathroom wall is 1094 cubic feet so in that regards those two rooms combined would be 2364 cubic feet all together and that would constitute a medium size room?

I will of course experiment with subwoofer placement once I have them.
And yes living in a apartment do have its limitations regarding being neighborly.

My goal is to get more lower bass frequency in the movie room and not necessarily that physical pressurization from an enclosed room. So in that regards I'm confident that I will be pleased with two sealed subwoofers. I will however think about ported subs as well but those damn things are so huge.

Again thanx for the insight about those two partial walls, it will be interesting to hear the difference and figuring out where the subwoofers sounds the best.

Cheers,
//Peter
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Originally Posted by Sask HT View Post
What are your feelings on sub and speaker break-in? There seems to be varying opinions.

I haven't touched any of my audio settings now for a couple weeks and I swear the system sounded better this weekend.

We watched Wonder Woman on Sunday in 4K with Dolby Atmos. The wife and I watched this about 3-4 weeks ago, but my son wanted to watch it so we watched it again. The audio was amazing! The battle scene at the end shook the house, was blowing my pant legs around, and was jaw dropping!

I feel like all the speakers sounded better and the subs performed better. It was quite noticeable. As we watched it at the same volume and I haven't changed any settings in a couple weeks I concluded that the speakers/Subs must be getting better as they break-in.

It actually had me re-thinking my statement from a couple days ago that I should have got PB-2000's instead. My ears are still ringing today. I can't imagine ever turning it up louder than that.

Thoughts?

Hi,

I will be glad to give you my opinion, for whatever it may be worth. Enough people have reported hearing a little bit stronger low-bass after playing subwoofers (including SVS subwoofers) for a few days, that I am inclined to believe that there is something to it. I have read explanations for why some break-in could be possible, and I recall that the explanations seemed plausible at the time.

But, if there were to be a break-in effect, it seems to me that the subwoofers would have to be played for several hours or days for that effect to occur, and it seems to me that the difference would necessarily be subtle--perhaps a decibel or two at low-frequencies. What you described fits the first part of that, but not the subtle part.

You said that you watched Wonder Woman 3 or 4 weeks ago, but haven't touched any settings in the last 2 weeks. Perhaps you changed something after the last time you watched it--cascading crossovers maybe? I know that my own bass experiences vary quite widely on different days, and I can guarantee that happens without me changing any settings. I can watch a movie one day and feel that the bass is just right, and then watch the same movie with the same settings on a different day, and feel that the bass is either too weak or too strong. There are times when I believe that I am the most changeable variable in my HT system.

The bottom line on this is that I have no idea. I believe that there could be some break-in occurring, but I have to think that the effects would be subtle and not dramatic. But, combine that slight break-in with some setting tweaks that you may have forgotten making after first watching that movie, and with the way that our own perceptions can change from day-to-day, and I think that you have a probable explanation.

In any event, if it keeps you from wanting to upgrade for a while, maybe that's a good thing.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #503 of 1600 Old 08-13-2018, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I will be glad to give you my opinion, for whatever it may be worth. Enough people have reported hearing a little bit stronger low-bass after playing subwoofers (including SVS subwoofers) for a few days, that I am inclined to believe that there is something to it. I have read explanations for why some break-in could be possible, and I recall that the explanations seemed plausible at the time.

But, if there were to be a break-in effect, it seems to me that the subwoofers would have to be played for several hours or days for that effect to occur, and it seems to me that the difference would necessarily be subtle--perhaps a decibel or two at low-frequencies. What you described fits the first part of that, but not the subtle part.

You said that you watched Wonder Woman 3 or 4 weeks ago, but haven't touched any settings in the last 2 weeks. Perhaps you changed something after the last time you watched it--cascading crossovers maybe? I know that my own bass experiences vary quite widely on different days, and I can guarantee that happens without me changing any settings. I can watch a movie one day and feel that the bass is just right, and then watch the same movie with the same settings on a different day, and feel that the bass is either too weak or too strong. There are times when I believe that I am the most changeable variable in my HT system.

The bottom line on this is that I have no idea. I believe that there could be some break-in occurring, but I have to think that the effects would be subtle and not dramatic. But, combine that slight break-in with some setting tweaks that you may have forgotten making after first watching that movie, and with the way that our own perceptions can change from day-to-day, and I think that you have a probable explanation.

In any event, if it keeps you from wanting to upgrade for a while, maybe that's a good thing.

Regards,
Mike
The last tweek I did was turning the sub gain from 2 O'Clock to 3'Oclock. That might have happened after the first Wonder Woman viewing. But it was a couple weeks ago. I feel like about last Wednesday I started noticing an improvement in overall stereo performance. Not just the subs, but the speakers too.

We watched the season finale of Lost in Space on Neflix Wednsday night and both my wife and I commented on that was the best the stereo had sounded. I wrote it off as the sound track on that episode was just that good (The show is Dolby Vision with Atmos). Than Saturday we watched Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 and the last 1/2 hour of the movie sounded fantastic. Battle scences really shook the house. Sunday was the clincher as Wonder Woman really brought the house down.

So there might have been that one small tweek on the sub, but it's not just the subs. The speakers seem to be sounder better as well. Maybe I'm imagining it, but the wife noticed it too.

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post #504 of 1600 Old 08-13-2018, 08:14 PM
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Here's is my small take about break-in

In my DIY day's, we took the time to install a frequency gysmo, to make the driver move for a few days, only the midrange, since it was for an MTM design.

When buying my new speakers, the brand also recommended to do this.

Potential benefit, been real or not, would be the spider and the suspension from the driver would relax.
Or, just the time to get use to a certain sound, been new a speaker or sub

This is a Big can of Worms, to be open, many other threads are open for this subject.

That said, when someone mention breaking-in a speakers wire, or sometime a wall plug (as very expensive), then, I have no problem to pull out the BS card, wires are wires!!!.


Ray
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post #505 of 1600 Old 08-13-2018, 08:49 PM
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post #506 of 1600 Old 08-17-2018, 10:43 AM
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Question Calibrate after making cascading crossover changes?

General question. this may have been previously covered, but if so I missed it somehow. Sorry.

What is the general opinion/consensus about running Audyssey (and/or equivalent) Calibration "post" Cascading Crossover adjustments ?

My brain is telling me yes I should do this. My body is saying Kick back and relax its not needed. Good enough is good enough right? Well, not in here it isn't.


Follow up question. Should one also redo OmniMic/Rew assisted "Phase" adjustments as well? Or am I thinking too hard about this?

If the answers are yes to any/all of the above. I am putting out an open invite to anybody local who is willing to come help an old fellah out. I will provide ample Pizza/Beer/Scotch/your choice of Food and Drink. Sweeting the pot, I will offer anyone who helps me a free UHD Movie of their choice and reimbursement for Gas & Travel costs. I live just North of Sarasota and just South of Tampa.

Getting Old is a bitch, but the alternative sucks!


Thanks for your attention.
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post #507 of 1600 Old 08-17-2018, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
General question. this may have been previously covered, but if so I missed it somehow. Sorry.

What is the general opinion/consensus about running Audyssey (and/or equivalent) Calibration "post" Cascading Crossover adjustments ?

My brain is telling me yes I should do this. My body is saying Kick back and relax its not needed. Good enough is good enough right? Well, not in here it isn't.


Follow up question. Should one also redo OmniMic/Rew assisted "Phase" adjustments as well? Or am I thinking too hard about this?

If the answers are yes to any/all of the above. I am putting out an open invite to anybody local who is willing to come help an old fellah out. I will provide ample Pizza/Beer/Scotch/your choice of Food and Drink. Sweeting the pot, I will offer anyone who helps me a free UHD Movie of their choice and reimbursement for Gas & Travel costs. I live just North of Sarasota and just South of Tampa.

Getting Old is a bitch, but the alternative sucks!

Thanks for your attention.

Hi Adam,

Nice to hear from you! I'm right with you on the bolded part. It is easy to overthink some of this stuff, but the good news is that there isn't any reason whatsoever to fool with running a new Audyssey calibration, or to fool with the phase controls from where you currently have them. Cascading crossovers don't actually change the native frequency response of a subwoofer, or of a pair of subs. And, they don't change the way that the subwoofers interact with the room, and with each other, either. They just change how high in frequency the subwoofers are allowed to play.

When we do that we get rid of some bass coloration to frequencies above our selected crossover point, such as 80Hz, and we concentrate relatively more SPL below that crossover point. That gives us a potential increase in our mid-bass clarity, especially for dialogue. And, it gives our speakers a chance to exhibit more of their natural sound qualities for music. I think it also gives us a little more headroom for our low-bass frequencies, although most of us don't really need any more of that.

Implementing cascading crossovers is a little bit like implementing a house-curve, after running Audyssey, by using your LFA (low-frequency adjust) knob to raise or lower the SPL of the low-frequencies a little. But, in this case, instead of influencing the low-frequency SPL, we are influencing the SPL of frequencies above our crossover. In either example, though, we aren't changing the fundamental frequency response of the subwoofers in our room, and we aren't interfering in any way with the filters that Audyssey has already set. This is just like going from an 80Hz crossover to a 60Hz, or a 100Hz crossover, after an Audyssey calibration. No harm, no foul!

Regards,
Mike


Edit: I decided to edit my post for the benefit of others who may read this. First, I put an additional note at the beginning of the description of cascading crossovers indicating that it isn't necessary to run room correction again. There was already a note at the end of the description, but it may not have been clear that this is strictly a post-calibration tweak. Second, as already noted in the Guide, implementing cascading crossovers could potentially cause some cancellation near the crossover, but it may or may not be audible if it happens. For those who have measuring equipment, and are curious, it will be easy to measure to determine whether anything changes. And, listeners can then apply remedial measures, such as adjusting distance for one subwoofer (as @bscool mentioned in an earlier post), if something does change for the worse.

For those who hear clear improvements in the overall sound quality, however, I would find it hard to encourage someone to be anxious about this, or to measure his FR, unless he really is curious. What we can measure, and what we can hear, are not exactly the same, and most of us will be implementing cascading crossovers specifically in order to enhance our perceived sound quality. If it does that, then I would be inclined to accept the win. If it doesn't, or if curiosity gets the better of us, then we might want to break-out the measuring gear. But, everything in the Guide is intended to have general applicability, whether an individual has specific measurement capabilities, or not. And, cascading crossovers are a good example of that. Ultimately, we will simply implement the things in our audio systems that sound best to us.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 08-18-2018 at 04:07 AM.
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post #508 of 1600 Old 08-17-2018, 02:53 PM
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While I agree that implementing cascading crossovers would not require a new Audyssey calibration, I believe (in theory) that it could potentially change the phase relationship between the subs and the mains, requiring a new Sub Distance Tweak. This would be easy enough to check with an SPL meter or, of course, REW.

I personally haven't implemented CCs since two of my four subs lack crossover adjustments on the amp. I'm eyeballing a MiniDSP HD (for a few reasons) and that would allow me to try it out for myself.
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post #509 of 1600 Old 08-17-2018, 03:01 PM
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@mthomas47 and @Alan P ,

Thanks for the answers. Much appreciated Gentlemen!
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post #510 of 1600 Old 08-17-2018, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Adam,

Nice to hear from you! I'm right with you on the bolded part. It is easy to overthink some of this stuff, but the good news is that there isn't any reason whatsoever to fool with running a new Audyssey calibration, or to fool with the phase controls from where you currently have them. Cascading crossovers don't actually change the native frequency response of a subwoofer, or of a pair of subs. And, they don't change the way that the subwoofers interact with the room, and with each other, either. They just change how high in frequency the subwoofers are allowed to play.

When we do that we get rid of some bass coloration to frequencies above our selected crossover point, such as 80Hz, and we concentrate relatively more SPL below that crossover point. That gives us a potential increase in our mid-bass clarity, especially for dialogue. And, it gives our speakers a chance to exhibit more of their natural sound qualities for music. I think it also gives us a little more headroom for our low-bass frequencies, although most of us don't really need any more of that.

Implementing cascading crossovers is a little bit like implementing a house-curve, after running Audyssey, by using your LFA (low-frequency adjust) knob to raise or lower the SPL of the low-frequencies a little. But, in this case, instead of influencing the low-frequency SPL, we are influencing the SPL of frequencies above our crossover. In either example, though, we aren't changing the fundamental frequency response of the subwoofers in our room, and we aren't interfering in any way with the filters that Audyssey has already set. This is just like going from an 80Hz crossover to a 60Hz, or a 100Hz crossover, after an Audyssey calibration. No harm, no foul!

Regards,
Mike


Edit: I decided to edit my post for the benefit of others who may read this. First, I put a note into the description of cascading crossovers indicating that it isn't necessary to run room correction again. As Adam pointed out, it may not have been clear that this is strictly a post-calibration tweak. Second, as already noted in the Guide, implementing cascading crossovers could potentially cause some cancellation near the crossover, but it may or may not be audible if it happens. For those who have measuring equipment, and are curious, it will be easy to measure to determine whether anything changes. And, to apply remedial measures, such as adjusting distance for one subwoofer (as @bscool mentioned in an earlier post), if something does change for the worse.

For those who hear clear improvements in the overall sound quality, however, I would find it hard to encourage someone to be anxious about this, or to measure his FR, unless he really is curious. What we can measure, and what we can hear, are not exactly the same, and most of us will be implementing cascading crossovers specifically in order to enhance our perceived sound quality. If it does that, then I would be inclined to accept the win. If it doesn't, or if curiosity gets the better of us, then we might want to break-out the measuring gear. But, everything in the Guide is intended to have general applicability, whether an individual has specific measurement capabilities, or not. And, cascading crossovers are a good example of that. Ultimately, we will simply implement the things in our audio systems that sound best to us.

Big +1, on this last paragraph, if it sound better, why not doing-it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
General question. this may have been previously covered, but if so I missed it somehow. Sorry.

What is the general opinion/consensus about running Audyssey (and/or equivalent) Calibration "post" Cascading Crossover adjustments ?

My brain is telling me yes I should do this. My body is saying Kick back and relax its not needed. Good enough is good enough right? Well, not in here it isn't.


Follow up question. Should one also redo OmniMic/Rew assisted "Phase" adjustments as well? Or am I thinking too hard about this?

If the answers are yes to any/all of the above. I am putting out an open invite to anybody local who is willing to come help an old fellah out. I will provide ample Pizza/Beer/Scotch/your choice of Food and Drink. Sweeting the pot, I will offer anyone who helps me a free UHD Movie of their choice and reimbursement for Gas & Travel costs. I live just North of Sarasota and just South of Tampa.

Getting Old is a bitch, but the alternative sucks!


Thanks for your attention.

Adam

My personal opinion, since I do not have the level of knowledge as mthomas47 and Alan P.
But do know, what sound better to me


Not needed, if not, doing so, the calibration will try to re-adjust again for what I know about calibration system.

My system was flat, did the Audyssey calibration, set the DEQ to Off, and also set to Off was the house curve, and the subs set at 20Hz.

All I can tell you, is to try-it, this what I did.
Use to be a purist, but when doing a small change like this one, making any movie more exciting, who cares, after all, it is my system
I tried-it, and after two movies, I am pretty well decided to leave on the Cascading way.

Changing the few settings was fast to do, if you do not like what you hear, changing them back to the original. would be just as fast.

And by the way, Thank You, for your service to your Country, as a Navy man!


Ray
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Last edited by darthray; 08-17-2018 at 07:50 PM.
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