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post #511 of 1605 Old 08-18-2018, 03:56 PM
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Been an interesting few weeks! I made a few upgrades this year to my setup as we all know till properly setup,we can wonder why oh why didn't I leave well enough alone! First up were switching out a few acoustic panels from broadband to some of the GIK Alpha and Impression lines, next up was upgrading the Marantz 8802 to the newer 8805 (simply loving this thing) and adding an Rythmik F18 sub to the rear of the room. The subs at the front are a stack of Kresiel DXD12012's total of( 4 12" drivers) and the combination of the two play extremely well together. Lastly was the use of the Audyssey app, here I was after mostly limiting correction on my mains (Boston Acoustic E100's) which can cast a soundstage that can haunt ones dreams! I'm 2/ch just about 80% of my listening but I try to never with in reason compromise any system aspect. To get down to my post, I found the time two weeks ago to breakout REW and mic and do the sub distance tweek and ended up adding 7ms to what Audyssey had set them at, I had already spent time playing with the Audyssey app and came to really like the following setup for all speakers using the app to limit correction with all using an 80hz crossover in a 7.1.4 setup. Mains are corrected up to 250hz with all other speakers up to 5000hz no midrange compensation used except for the center channel. To get things to this point took extreme trail and error but that sweet little app made it a breeze. Back to REW, I was able to smooth out the crossover point to from anywhere smoothly from 60-90hz but settled on 80hz and the results were very amazing indeed.

This all leads me to today! I finally got around to Cascading the crossovers! The results? Man oh Man the midrange clarity and tactility are almost tangible and sorry for the use of a few Audiophile lingo but the pitch and definition are just as sure footed as a mountain goat! The spatial rendering behind and in front of the speakers all the way to the mlp is just a sheer pleasure to hear no smearing what so ever! The subs a starting and stopping even faster than what was precieved before. I choose these particular subs for a reason,and that was clean distortion free bass regardless of the note there producing(DXD's use pushpull/Ryhtmik uses Servo) and both are world class leaders at doing so.

Now I know there's no such thing as a free lunch! The skeptic in me is just waiting for something to say Hmm! a scramble back to defaullt But as it stands today I'm loving the feels like I finally got my bass back like the old days but packaged with all the things I all ways new could make it better i.e smother crossover , no nulls peaks etc..

Now as to a bit more insight as to just what in the world is going on and while refreshing myself on the matter I came across this link that stood out. Till I breakout REW again for myself (not today as I'm staying right here were the ears have spoken and @Alanp didn't feel the need to do another distance tweek as the sound was spot on!

https://forums.audioholics.com/forum...ssovers.37018/



Mike and others like you AlanP darthray and many others here on AVS, thanks for all you do man, as its what this sharing of info on this worldwide web is all about. Hats off to ya Sirs
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post #512 of 1605 Old 08-18-2018, 04:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post
Been an interesting few weeks! I made a few upgrades this year to my setup as we all know till properly setup,we can wonder why oh why didn't I leave well enough alone! First up were switching out a few acoustic panels from broadband to some of the GIK Alpha and Impression lines, next up was upgrading the Marantz 8802 to the newer 8805 (simply loving this thing) and adding an Rythmik F18 sub to the rear of the room. The subs at the front are a stack of Kresiel DXD12012's total of( 4 12" drivers) and the combination of the two play extremely well together. Lastly was the use of the Audyssey app, here I was after mostly limiting correction on my mains (Boston Acoustic E100's) which can cast a soundstage that can haunt ones dreams! I'm 2/ch just about 80% of my listening but I try to never with in reason compromise any system aspect. To get down to my post, I found the time two weeks ago to breakout REW and mic and do the sub distance tweek and ended up adding 7ms to what Audyssey had set them at, I had already spent time playing with the Audyssey app and came to really like the following setup for all speakers using the app to limit correction with all using an 80hz crossover in a 7.1.4 setup. Mains are corrected up to 250hz with all other speakers up to 5000hz no midrange compensation used except for the center channel. To get things to this point took extreme trail and error but that sweet little app made it a breeze. Back to REW, I was able to smooth out the crossover point to from anywhere smoothly from 60-90hz but settled on 80hz and the results were very amazing indeed.

This all leads me to today! I finally got around to Cascading the crossovers! The results? Man oh Man the midrange clarity and tactility are almost tangible and sorry for the use of a few Audiophile lingo but the pitch and definition are just as sure footed as a mountain goat! The spatial rendering behind and in front of the speakers all the way to the mlp is just a sheer pleasure to hear no smearing what so ever! The subs a starting and stopping even faster than what was precieved before. I choose these particular subs for a reason,and that was clean distortion free bass regardless of the note there producing(DXD's use pushpull/Ryhtmik uses Servo) and both are world class leaders at doing so.

Now I know there's no such thing as a free lunch! The skeptic in me is just waiting for something to say Hmm! a scramble back to defaullt But as it stands today I'm loving the feels like I finally got my bass back like the old days but packaged with all the things I all ways new could make it better i.e smother crossover , no nulls peaks etc..

Now as to a bit more insight as to just what in the world is going on and while refreshing myself on the matter I came across this link that stood out. Till I breakout REW again for myself (not today as I'm staying right here were the ears have spoken and @Alanp didn't feel the need to do another distance tweek as the sound was spot on!

https://forums.audioholics.com/forum...ssovers.37018/


Mike and others like you AlanP darthray and many others here on AVS, thanks for all you do man, as its what this sharing of info on this worldwide web is all about. Hats off to ya Sirs

First, you are very welcome for any help I have provided! It was my pleasure! And, I appreciate you posting about your experience.

Second, I am very glad to hear that you like using the cascading crossovers. It's one of the best and easiest upgrades I have made to my audio system. I read the same discussion you linked before deciding to give cascading crossovers a try for myself, and like yours, my experience has been nothing but positive.

It sounds as if you have had a busy and productive time of it lately. It's sort of a labor of love, though, isn't it? I have spent a great deal of time and effort on my room, and on my audio system, especially over the last few years, and I really don't begrudge any of it. If anything, the process involved just allows me to enjoy the result of my effort all the more. A lot of what we learn about audio involves discovering what we really like personally in the way of gear, the listening environment, and settings. Even with some temporary confusions and frustrations along the way, I have enjoyed all of it.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #513 of 1605 Old 08-18-2018, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post
Been an interesting few weeks! I made a few upgrades this year to my setup as we all know till properly setup,we can wonder why oh why didn't I leave well enough alone! First up were switching out a few acoustic panels from broadband to some of the GIK Alpha and Impression lines, next up was upgrading the Marantz 8802 to the newer 8805 (simply loving this thing) and adding an Rythmik F18 sub to the rear of the room. The subs at the front are a stack of Kresiel DXD12012's total of( 4 12" drivers) and the combination of the two play extremely well together. Lastly was the use of the Audyssey app, here I was after mostly limiting correction on my mains (Boston Acoustic E100's) which can cast a soundstage that can haunt ones dreams! I'm 2/ch just about 80% of my listening but I try to never with in reason compromise any system aspect. To get down to my post, I found the time two weeks ago to breakout REW and mic and do the sub distance tweek and ended up adding 7ms to what Audyssey had set them at, I had already spent time playing with the Audyssey app and came to really like the following setup for all speakers using the app to limit correction with all using an 80hz crossover in a 7.1.4 setup. Mains are corrected up to 250hz with all other speakers up to 5000hz no midrange compensation used except for the center channel. To get things to this point took extreme trail and error but that sweet little app made it a breeze. Back to REW, I was able to smooth out the crossover point to from anywhere smoothly from 60-90hz but settled on 80hz and the results were very amazing indeed.

This all leads me to today! I finally got around to Cascading the crossovers! The results? Man oh Man the midrange clarity and tactility are almost tangible and sorry for the use of a few Audiophile lingo but the pitch and definition are just as sure footed as a mountain goat! The spatial rendering behind and in front of the speakers all the way to the mlp is just a sheer pleasure to hear no smearing what so ever! The subs a starting and stopping even faster than what was precieved before. I choose these particular subs for a reason,and that was clean distortion free bass regardless of the note there producing(DXD's use pushpull/Ryhtmik uses Servo) and both are world class leaders at doing so.

Now I know there's no such thing as a free lunch! The skeptic in me is just waiting for something to say Hmm! a scramble back to defaullt But as it stands today I'm loving the feels like I finally got my bass back like the old days but packaged with all the things I all ways new could make it better i.e smother crossover , no nulls peaks etc..

Now as to a bit more insight as to just what in the world is going on and while refreshing myself on the matter I came across this link that stood out. Till I breakout REW again for myself (not today as I'm staying right here were the ears have spoken and @Alanp didn't feel the need to do another distance tweek as the sound was spot on!

https://forums.audioholics.com/forum...ssovers.37018/



Mike and others like you AlanP darthray and many others here on AVS, thanks for all you do man, as its what this sharing of info on this worldwide web is all about. Hats off to ya Sirs

Sure glad, you also enjoy the benefit of Cascading

While I like to be a purist, experimenting with this little exercise, open my eyes or should I say my hears, to another level
A lot more exciting and enjoyable, for my movie viewing.

It show that sometime been a purist, is good for doing the basics the right way, but could be improve with some small tweaking


And Thank You, to take the time, to double check with REW, and having good results, as no major problems.

We owe a big thanks to Mike, to include this in his Guide.
And also to JimWilson, to always confirm this, since it sound from his many posts, He have done that for while, and of course all other that replied with their results.


Ray

Last edited by darthray; 08-18-2018 at 07:02 PM.
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post #514 of 1605 Old 08-18-2018, 08:04 PM
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First, you are very welcome for any help I have provided! It was my pleasure! And, I appreciate you posting about your experience.

Second, I am very glad to hear that you like using the cascading crossovers. It's one of the best and easiest upgrades I have made to my audio system. I read the same discussion you linked before deciding to give cascading crossovers a try for myself, and like yours, my experience has been nothing but positive.

It sounds as if you have had a busy and productive time of it lately. It's sort of a labor of love, though, isn't it? I have spent a great deal of time and effort on my room, and on my audio system, especially over the last few years, and I really don't begrudge any of it. If anything, the process involved just allows me to enjoy the result of my effort all the more. A lot of what we learn about audio involves discovering what we really like personally in the way of gear, the listening environment, and settings. Even with some temporary confusions and frustrations along the way, I have enjoyed all of it.

Regards,
Mike
Yup! and along with enjoying and no take backs even with the confusions and frustrations, I'll admit its kept me sane and keeps my mind challenged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Sure glad, you also enjoy the benefit of Cascading

While I like to be a purist, experimenting with this little exercise, open my eyes or should I say my hears, to another level
A lot more exciting and enjoyable, for my movie viewing.

It show that sometime been a purist, is good for doing the basics the right way, but could be improve with some small tweaking


And Thank You, to take the time, to double check with REW, and having good results, as no major problems.

We owe a big thanks to Mike, to include this in his Guide.
And also to JimWilson, to always confirm this, since it sound from his many posts, He have done that for while, and of course all other that replied with their results.


Ray
Well said big nod to Jimwilson as well Still some life left in those basics and remain the foundation to good sound,just glad I'm still willing to try and try again
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post #515 of 1605 Old 08-19-2018, 07:16 AM
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Struggling with 2 concepts. How to test cascading xovers? And this sub distance tweek? Cant find an explanation?

Trying improve cc dialogue. Old ears\\ LOL

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post #516 of 1605 Old 08-19-2018, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Struggling with 2 concepts. How to test cascading xovers? And this sub distance tweek? Cant find an explanation?

Trying improve cc dialogue. Old ears\\ LOL

Hi Chuck,

To me, those are really separate questions. Cascading crossovers will either give you improved mid-bass clarity, and improved dialogue intelligibility or it won't. That is a purely subjective determination that our ears have to make. And, the overall sound quality will either improve as a result of implementing cascading crossovers, or it won't. That is also a subjective determination. And, it is no different from the decisions you make every day with respect to your HT system. How loud do I want this program to be? How much subwoofer boost do I want? Hmm, let me try taking a decibel or so out of the bass on this one to make it sound better to me, and so on. Our ears judge all of those things and much more for us.

Then there is the other issue. If I measure my frequency response with cascading crossovers, or with any other aspect of our audio system, will I see something in the measured frequency response that I may or may not have been able to notice (hear in a meaningful way)? And, if I do see some aberration in the frequency response, can I fix it? That question is dependent on the curiosity level and enterprise of the specific individual.

I know people who measure everything. The REW thread contains any number of measurement hobbyists, who really enjoy the tweak/measure/retweak/remeasure aspect of their hobby. And, there are other people who have measured in the past, but who do it infrequently, or not at all now, and who just prefer to rely on what they hear. The great majority of AVS members have never measured with REW and never will. In my opinion, all three approaches are equally legitimate. It's your hobby, after all.

For someone who wants to see, rather just to hear what cascading crossovers are doing, a before-and-after measurement of the frequency response should enable him to do that. In my opinion, those before-and-after measurements should be taken in about a 6" circle around our heads and averaged with REW, in order to reasonably approximate what we will hear, as our hearing is binaural (we use both ears to hear). If someone sees evidence of cancellation occurring at some frequency, where it wasn't occurring before, he can do what's called a subwoofer distance tweak. That would involve playing steady bass content while (typically) measuring the subwoofers and the center channel. Measuring the subwoofers with the center channel would be especially recommended for an emphasis on movie watching.

While measuring with REW, the listener would manually adjust the distance setting by either adding or subtracting distance, from one of the subwoofers, in an effort to remediate the cancellation. This is a rinse, repeat process, but it isn't complicated to do. Again, in order to be really useful, the measurements should be taken in about a 6" circle around the listener's head and averaged with REW--say about 6 measurements in all. Single-point measurements, taken right between our eyes, are rarely a good approximation of what we will actually hear. Alan, or others may be able to add to my explanation, if I have left anything out.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 08-19-2018 at 08:08 AM. Reason: Typo
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post #517 of 1605 Old 08-19-2018, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
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Hi Chuck,

To me, those are really separate questions. Cascading crossovers will either give you improved mid-bass clarity, and improved dialogue intelligibility or it won't. That is a purely subjective determination that our ears have to make. And, the overall sound quality will either improve as a result of implementing cascading crossovers, or it won't. That is also a subjective determination. And, it is no different from the decisions you make every day with respect to your HT system. How loud do I want this program to be? How much subwoofer boost do I want? Hmm, let me try taking a decibel or so out of the bass on this one to make it sound better to me, and so on. Our ears judge all of those things and much more for us.

Then there is the other issue. If I measure my frequency response with cascading crossovers, or with any other aspect of our audio system, will I see something in the measured frequency response that I may or may not have been able to notice (hear in a meaningful way)? And, if I do see some aberration in the frequency response, can I fix it? That question is dependent on the curiosity level and enterprise of the specific individual.

I know people who measure everything. The REW thread contains any number of measurement hobbyists, who really enjoy the tweak/measure/retweak/remeasure aspect of their hobby. And, there are other people who have measured in the past, but who do it infrequently, or not at all now, and who just prefer to rely on what they hear. The great majority of AVS members have never measured with REW and never will. In my opinion, all three approaches are equally legitimate. It's your hobby, after all.

For someone who wants to see, rather just to hear what cascading crossovers are doing, a before-and-after measurement of the frequency response should enable him to do that. In my opinion, those before-and-after measurements should be taken in about a 6" circle around our heads and averaged with REW, in order to reasonably approximate what we will hear, as our hearing is binaural (we use both ears to hear). If someone sees evidence of cancellation occurring at some frequency, where it wasn't occurring before, he can do what's called a subwoofer distance tweak. That would involve playing steady bass content while (typically) measuring the subwoofers and the center channel. Measuring the subwoofers with the center channel would be especially recommended for an emphasis on movie watching.

While measuring with REW, the listener would manually adjust the distance setting by either adding or subtracting distance, from one of the subwoofers, in an effort to remediate the cancellation. This is a rinse, repeat process, but it isn't complicated to do. Again, in order to be really useful, the measurements should be taken in about a 6" circle around the listener's head and averaged with REW--say about 6 measurements in all. Single-point measurements, taken right between our eyes, are rarely a good approximation of what we will actually hear. Alan, or others may be able to add to my explanation, if I have left anything out.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks, Mike.

I expected that kind of reply; but, was hoping for a more discrete set of steps. LOL... Engineer in me...

But, better mid bass clarity doesn't mean a great deal to me as a complete newbee....... Would I know it if I heard it? My subs do not have a discrete xo selector; just an analog knob. Range 50-150. So at 10:30, it's about 87.5 Hz, LOL. I have two such subs. All other speakers are at 80 Hz; except the LFE is set to 90 Hz in the Onkyo. If you were tweaking from these starting positions; which one first or what has the most impact?
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post #518 of 1605 Old 08-19-2018, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuck666 View Post
Thanks, Mike.

I expected that kind of reply; but, was hoping for a more discrete set of steps. LOL... Engineer in me...

But, better mid bass clarity doesn't mean a great deal to me as a complete newbee....... Would I know it if I heard it? My subs do not have a discrete xo selector; just an analog knob. Range 50-150. So at 10:30, it's about 87.5 Hz, LOL. I have two such subs. All other speakers are at 80 Hz; except the LFE is set to 90 Hz in the Onkyo. If you were tweaking from these starting positions; which one first or what has the most impact?
Here is a link to the SDT. Short version increase or decrease sub distance by 2' intervals until you get the smoothest FR around the sub and mains/center x-over point. https://www.dropbox.com/s/9x76z07se4...02013.pdf?dl=0

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post #519 of 1605 Old 08-19-2018, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Chuck666 View Post
Thanks, Mike.

I expected that kind of reply; but, was hoping for a more discrete set of steps. LOL... Engineer in me...

But, better mid bass clarity doesn't mean a great deal to me as a complete newbee....... Would I know it if I heard it? My subs do not have a discrete xo selector; just an analog knob. Range 50-150. So at 10:30, it's about 87.5 Hz, LOL. I have two such subs. All other speakers are at 80 Hz; except the LFE is set to 90 Hz in the Onkyo. If you were tweaking from these starting positions; which one first or what has the most impact?

You are welcome, Chuck! To me a great way to determine mid-bass clarity is with dialogue in movies. Since implementing cascading crossovers, I have been able to consistently hear dialogue better, with my center channel at a lower level than I had it before. If you try cascading crossovers, and you can hear movie/TV dialogue better, then I would count that as a win.

The settings that you have described sound fine to me. LFE at 90Hz, speaker crossovers at 80Hz, and subwoofer low-pass filter with an analogue knob at ~87.5Hz. I don't think it is necessary for all of the frequencies to match identically (even for engineers ) in order to realize the benefits of cascading crossovers. All you are really trying to do is to get the frequencies above about 80Hz or 90Hz to roll-off faster. You do that by setting multiple low-pass filters, so that their roll-offs combine. If we keep subwoofer frequencies concentrated below about 90Hz, the bass boosts that we are using have less opportunity to influence voices. That is especially helpful for male voices.

Some male voices in movies are deliberately bass-enhanced. Voices of villains in Sci-Fi movies are a great example of that. But, we don't want male voices to sound bass-enhanced when they aren't intended to be. And, good dialogue clarity is essential to be able to hear certain sounds in words, especially as we get older. The cascading crossovers should help with that.

The step-by-step instructions on how to implement them are in Section III of the Guide. But, we have both already mentioned them in our posts: speaker crossovers and the LPF of LFE in the AVR, and the low-pass filter in the subwoofers, all converging at about the same frequency. In your case, they would all converge between 80Hz and 90Hz. Good enough!

If you ever wanted to measure the results, the only thing you would tweak is the distance setting for one subwoofer in your AVR. If you didn't have separate distance settings for two subwoofers in your AVR, the next best thing you could do would be to adjust the phase knob on the back of one subwoofer, while playing some good bass content, and then measuring the results of changed phase positions. But honestly, if you end-up hearing dialogue more clearly with cascading crossovers, I might not bother to measure or to tweak the results, if I were you. YMMV!

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #520 of 1605 Old 08-19-2018, 01:10 PM
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post #521 of 1605 Old 08-19-2018, 02:35 PM
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Thanks for this great guide! I’ve practically doubled the effectiveness of my 15” HSU. I’m in the process of installing acoustic treatments as well; not only do I have better bass but also more intelligible dialog.

This is an excellent in-depth guide yet written so a layman such as myself can understand it. Thanks again!
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post #522 of 1605 Old 08-19-2018, 02:58 PM
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^^^^The Guide is incredible. Each time I read it (on fourth run now) I get more and more out of it. So much valuable information. I recommend people read it more than once. Invaluable reference resource for the AVS Community.

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post #523 of 1605 Old 08-19-2018, 03:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ruggercb View Post
Thanks for this great guide! I’ve practically doubled the effectiveness of my 15” HSU. I’m in the process of installing acoustic treatments as well; not only do I have better bass but also more intelligible dialog.

This is an excellent in-depth guide yet written so a layman such as myself can understand it. Thanks again!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
^^^^The Guide is incredible. Each time I read it (on fourth run now) I get more and more out of it. So much valuable information. I recommend people read it more than once. Invaluable reference resource for the AVS Community.

Thank you both very much! I am really glad that the Guide is helping. Hearing that it is makes it all worthwhile.

I think that one reason you get more out of the Guide each time you read it Adam, is that I keep adding to it all the time! I keep thinking of new information I should add, or things that I can explain a little better. I'm going to have to make a new hard copy soon, as I could never reproduce all of this if anything ever happened to it.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #524 of 1605 Old 08-19-2018, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Thank you both very much! I am really glad that the Guide is helping. Hearing that it is makes it all worthwhile.

I think that one reason you get more out of the Guide each time you read it Adam, is that I keep adding to it all the time! I keep thinking of new information I should add, or things that I can explain a little better. I'm going to have to make a new hard copy soon, as I could never reproduce all of this if anything ever happened to it.
Publishing would be another solution!

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Originally Posted by Chuck666 View Post
Thanks, Mike.

I expected that kind of reply; but, was hoping for a more discrete set of steps. LOL... Engineer in me...

But, better mid bass clarity doesn't mean a great deal to me as a complete newbee....... Would I know it if I heard it? My subs do not have a discrete xo selector; just an analog knob. Range 50-150. So at 10:30, it's about 87.5 Hz, LOL. I have two such subs. All other speakers are at 80 Hz; except the LFE is set to 90 Hz in the Onkyo. If you were tweaking from these starting positions; which one first or what has the most impact?

My subs (PB13-Ultra, original version), also only have an analog knob, I set mine at what is suppose to be 90Hz mark (use to be at 120Hz, crossover Off), how accurate it is, is anyone guess.
Also set my LFE at 90Hz (also use to be at 120Hz) on my Marantz AVP, and like very much the results
For wish one, as the most impact, I have no idea since I change both at the same time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck666 View Post
Struggling with 2 concepts. How to test cascading xovers? And this sub distance tweek? Cant find an explanation?

Trying improve cc dialogue. Old ears\\ LOL

Here's my take on this one, if wrong I am sure that I will be corrected, and have no problem with that.

The purpose of a calibration system, is to make your sound as flat as possible, for the room your are in.
Therefore to measure any difference, you would be require to do a calibration first, then measure with a system like REW, to see the results.

Then do the few change in your system, to try cascading your frequencies settings, (re-doing a calibration at this point, would futile, in my opinion, since the calibration system would change all it's corrections).
Then re-measure with REW, to see the results of what actually happen in your frequencies results.

The way I see-it, you start with the basics, to make your sound as perfect, as possible.
Then tweak to try the cascading, if you like the sound better, if not, you can always go back very easily.
But nothing wrong, to know what happen within the frequencies response, knowledge is power

My-self, I will never know, I do have a REW system, since it is too complicated for me, and require knowledge of computer, a big weakness of mine, but it sound good and like-it, and knew the results before from Audyssey graph.


Ray

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post #526 of 1605 Old 08-20-2018, 08:05 AM
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Watched BR2049 last night.. WOW TRULY a reference ATMOS BD.. Room filling sound, but the dialog was soft and mushy at times. Had to tweak CC+8dbs at times. Time to restart the process. Have lots of time.. Anyone seen an AccuEQ guide. Definitely different than AUDESSY.. Will be changing out 1 set of height speakers Wednesday.

Thanks ALL

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Originally Posted by Chuck666 View Post
Thanks, Mike.

I expected that kind of reply; but, was hoping for a more discrete set of steps. LOL... Engineer in me...

But, better mid bass clarity doesn't mean a great deal to me as a complete newbee....... Would I know it if I heard it? My subs do not have a discrete xo selector; just an analog knob. Range 50-150. So at 10:30, it's about 87.5 Hz, LOL. I have two such subs. All other speakers are at 80 Hz; except the LFE is set to 90 Hz in the Onkyo. If you were tweaking from these starting positions; which one first or what has the most impact?

Sub Distance Tweak, Reader's Digest condensed version:

  • Measure CC+subs (REW HDMI CH3)
  • Add to the sub distance setting (both subs equally if using an AVR with dual sub calibration) in 1' increments (on some AVRs you must make sure to back out of the distance setting menu before the new setting will take effect)
  • Re-measure
  • Repeat until you get the smoothest transition over the crossover
  • You can repeat the process with the L/R+sub, but will usually have to compromise the CC+subs to get them all fairly smooth (if you are primarily movies, balance the compromise in favor of CC+sub, if music the L/R+sub)
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Sub Distance Tweak, Reader's Digest condensed version:

  • Measure CC+subs (REW HDMI CH3)
  • Add to the sub distance setting (both subs equally if using an AVR with dual sub calibration) in 1' increments (on some AVRs you must make sure to back out of the distance setting menu before the new setting will take effect)
  • Re-measure
  • Repeat until you get the smoothest transition over the crossover
  • You can repeat the process with the L/R+sub, but will usually have to compromise the CC+subs to get them all fairly smooth (if you are primarily movies, balance the compromise in favor of CC+sub, if music the L/R+sub)

Hi Alan,

I like your Reader's Digest version, and I think it may be easier for a lot of people to understand and follow than a paragraph explanation. So, with your permission, I will add this to the subsection on cascading crossovers, with a mention for the illustrious Alan P.

(I may edit it slightly for format.)

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #529 of 1605 Old 08-20-2018, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Alan,

I like your Reader's Digest version, and I think it may be easier for a lot of people to understand and follow than a paragraph explanation. So, with your permission, I will add this to the subsection on cascading crossovers, with a mention for the illustrious Alan P.

(I may edit it slightly for format.)

Regards,
Mike
Go right ahead and add it if you think it is worthy, and edit all you want! "D
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Sub Distance Tweak, Reader's Digest condensed version:

  • Measure CC+subs (REW HDMI CH3)
  • Add to the sub distance setting (both subs equally if using an AVR with dual sub calibration) in 1' increments (on some AVRs you must make sure to back out of the distance setting menu before the new setting will take effect)
  • Re-measure
  • Repeat until you get the smoothest transition over the crossover
  • You can repeat the process with the L/R+sub, but will usually have to compromise the CC+subs to get them all fairly smooth (if you are primarily movies, balance the compromise in favor of CC+sub, if music the L/R+sub)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Alan,

I like your Reader's Digest version, and I think it may be easier for a lot of people to understand and follow than a paragraph explanation. So, with your permission, I will add this to the subsection on cascading crossovers, with a mention for the illustrious Alan P.

(I may edit it slightly for format.)

Regards,
Mike
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Go right ahead and add it if you think it is worthy, and edit all you want! "D

Way to go, Alan P


You now have a small part for contribution of this Guide
Congratulation!


Ray
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post #531 of 1605 Old 08-20-2018, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuck666 View Post
Watched BR2049 last night.. WOW TRULY a reference ATMOS BD.. Room filling sound, but the dialog was soft and mushy at times. Had to tweak CC+8dbs at times. Time to restart the process. Have lots of time.. Anyone seen an AccuEQ guide. Definitely different than AUDESSY.. Will be changing out 1 set of height speakers Wednesday.

Thanks ALL

8 dB is very high, something is definitely wrong, I could see a dB or two, but not eight.

I would say a fresh start for calibration is in order.
Mine is at exactly the way my calibration system set-it.


While, I do understand, that some movie are on low side for the CC, due to the way it was recorded in the mix.
Never had to raise the level once.


Ray

Last edited by darthray; 08-20-2018 at 06:24 PM.
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Way to go, Alan P

You now have a small part for contribution of this Guide
Congratulation!

Ray

I think we all have parts in it, Ray! We all learn from each other and give each other ideas which eventually work their way into the Guide. And, Alan and I have exchanged ideas for years. I call it exchanging, but I will collect (steal ) good ideas anywhere I can find them.
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #533 of 1605 Old 08-20-2018, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I think we all have parts in it, Ray! We all learn from each other and give each other ideas which eventually work their way into the Guide. And, Alan and I have exchanged ideas for years. I call it exchanging, but I will collect (steal ) good ideas anywhere I can find them.

Alan, do have also great knowledge, seen many times from his posts and contribution to various threads.


Keep stealing, I meant collecting


Ray
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Cascading Crossover settings

Hi Mike, I decided to jump in on the cascading crossovers, and am going to change only 2 things from my current setup, the LPF for LFE and the LPF engagement in my subs. Does the following make sense to try? I want to try just listening first, then will do some before/after REW tests:

Current settings:

Crossovers for all speakers 80hz, set to small
LPF for LFE 100 HZ
No LPF set on subs
Sub 1 phase 0, sub 2 phase 60d
Parametric filters engaged to get response as flat as can using REW after Audyssey
No DEQ, subs boosted by 7 db each after Audyssey

Proposed settings:

LPF for for LFE changed to 80HZ
LPF set on both subs at 80HZ, 12db slope
all other settings same (all speakers small with 80HZ crossover; phase on sub 1/2 set to 0/60; parametric filters engaged; no DEQ, 7db sub boost after Audyssey)

Mark

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post #535 of 1605 Old 08-20-2018, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck666 View Post
Watched BR2049 last night.. WOW TRULY a reference ATMOS BD.. Room filling sound, but the dialog was soft and mushy at times. Had to tweak CC+8dbs at times. Time to restart the process. Have lots of time.. Anyone seen an AccuEQ guide. Definitely different than AUDESSY.. Will be changing out 1 set of height speakers Wednesday.

Thanks ALL
Hi, I happend to watch some of BR2049 tonight (I have watched it several times), and didn't have any dialog issues. FWIW, my system is set up with Audyssey using Flat, no DEQ, and a 7db boost on my subs. [this before trying the cascading crossovers I mentioned just above by the way]
Mark

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Last edited by markmanner; 08-21-2018 at 05:54 AM.
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Thank you both very much! I am really glad that the Guide is helping. Hearing that it is makes it all worthwhile.

I think that one reason you get more out of the Guide each time you read it Adam, is that I keep adding to it all the time! I keep thinking of new information I should add, or things that I can explain a little better. I'm going to have to make a new hard copy soon, as I could never reproduce all of this if anything ever happened to it.
I would also like to thank Mike for this invaluable Guide and advice. I am a complete newb to subwoofers, and have just bought and received my first sub (a JTR Cap 2400 ULF), and I have learned so much already, bit have a lot more to learn. Oh well Rome wasn't built in a day. The one truth is I am loving this sub even though I have only seen one movie, and several demoes from a few other movies with it, and it has bought a big smile to my face already. Is there a pdf file available to male it easier to printout and refer to. Please let me know,
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post #537 of 1605 Old 08-21-2018, 07:58 AM
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I want to join those who have thanked @mthomas47 for this guide! Thanks, Mike! I'm still wading my way through it, but find it's just incredibly absorbing, informative and USEFUL! So much good stuff in a relatively small space. ("Small" -- 118 pages when loaded to MS Word!)

And while on the topic, I've only done a quick glance and search through this thread, but I saw a comment about publishing. When I originally realized the size of the main doc, I knew I would never finish it in one reading or even likely within a few weeks, so I did a copy into Word -- very easy. That also allows me to set a bookmark and jump right to that spot (Bookmark - Goto) when starting again. (Insert on top menu, Links, Bookmark, select one or type a new one -- I use my name, Add. A link is inserted where the cursor sits in the doc. When ready for a new one, Delete the bookmark, re-type the name and Add. Or insert multiples to get back to certain pages.) Something similar can probably be done with other read/review apps.

And one question: I see the comments about this doc being general enough to apply to other EQ systems including YPAO. Are there significant exceptions -- in particular, the 8-point mic placement? I've found other recent (much briefer) docs that describe similar placement (although, Mike, your detailed explanation is far better and more specific and is what I plan to use to redo my room EQ -- after I finish reading the doc and get my AMP100VS back from warranty repair). Perhaps you may provide the answer later in the doc, but I'd be interested in whether there are significant exceptions for YPAO from the specific material provided for Audyssey.

Finally, my wife appreciated the technical comment about WAF!
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post #538 of 1605 Old 08-21-2018, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmanner View Post
Hi Mike, I decided to jump in on the cascading crossovers, and am going to change only 2 things from my current setup, the LPF for LFE and the LPF engagement in my subs. Does the following make sense to try? I want to try just listening first, then will do some before/after REW tests:

Current settings:

Crossovers for all speakers 80hz, set to small
LPF for LFE 100 HZ
No LPF set on subs
Sub 1 phase 0, sub 2 phase 60d
Parametric filters engaged to get response as flat as can using REW after Audyssey
No DEQ, subs boosted by 7 db each after Audyssey

Proposed settings:

LPF for for LFE changed to 80HZ
LPF set on both subs at 80HZ, 12db slope
all other settings same (all speakers small with 80HZ crossover; phase on sub 1/2 set to 0/60; parametric filters engaged; no DEQ, 7db sub boost after Audyssey)

Mark
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmanner View Post
Hi, I happend to watch some of BR2049 tonight (I have watched it several times), and didn't have any dialog issues. FWIW, my system is set up with Audyssey using Flat, no DEQ, and a 7db boost on my subs. [this before trying the cascading crossovers I mentioned just above by the way]
Mark

Hi Mark,

I think that the settings you are proposing make sense. I would probably use a 24db slope rather than a 12db slope, though. If you are trying to increase the roll-off of the frequencies above 80Hz, then it makes sense to me to use the maximum available slope. It will also be interesting to see what changes in your frequency response, and whether the parametric filters still work at the same settings. I hope that you will post about your findings in that regard, when you measure your new FR.

With respect to dialogue clarity, I think that so much depends on our individual hearing, room, speakers, and subwoofer boost that it is hard to generalize. I haven't watched BR2049 yet, so I don't have any personal experience with how hard it is to hear intelligible dialogue. I understood that Chuck had trouble hearing it, but he mentioned having some hearing loss, and that is often most noticeable in the mid-range where we hear voices.

Where I am going with this, is that dialogue clarity is just the easiest way to notice the difference that cascading crossovers (CC) make. My impression of what I am hearing and feeling in my audio system is that my mid-bass clarity has improved, at the same time that more SPL and tactile response have been concentrated below 80Hz. When you changed your LPF of LFE, you probably observed a subtle increase in mid-bass clarity. Turning off DEQ also makes a difference in overall clarity.

Using CC was a pretty significant additional upgrade in clarity for me. And, I feel that I am getting more impactful mid-bass and low-bass than I was, with the same amount of sub boost. I will add that my amount of sub boost happens to be a good deal greater than the average. A lot of that may be due to being in a very large room on concrete. My subwoofers have to manufacture most of my low-frequency SPL and tactile response themselves, because my significant room gain doesn't start until about 20Hz or lower, and concrete doesn't transmit the tactile sensations I like very well. But, I can get those same bass sensations now at a lower volume level than I was using before. I will be interested to find out what you discover when you try this.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #539 of 1605 Old 08-21-2018, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Mark,

I think that the settings you are proposing make sense. I would probably use a 24db slope rather than a 12db slope, though. If you are trying to increase the roll-off of the frequencies above 80Hz, then it makes sense to me to use the maximum available slope. It will also be interesting to see what changes in your frequency response, and whether the parametric filters still work at the same settings. I hope that you will post about your findings in that regard, when you measure your new FR.
...
But, I can get those same bass sensations now at a lower volume level than I was using before. I will be interested to find out what you discover when you try this.

Regards,
Mike
Hi Mike, I have been doing some REW tests, and I do need to tweak the PEQ settings that I was using for 2 of the 3 frequency bands. The 25hz boost I needed is the same, but a decrease I was using at 49 and 64 hz has now gone to an increase needed at 44hz and decrease at 50 hz. I will try a 24 db slope now.
I also think subjectively I have noticed a increase in bass sensations at lower volume as well. What an interesting thing this is!
Mark
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post #540 of 1605 Old 08-21-2018, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LennS View Post
I would also like to thank Mike for this invaluable Guide and advice. I am a complete newb to subwoofers, and have just bought and received my first sub (a JTR Cap 2400 ULF), and I have learned so much already, bit have a lot more to learn. Oh well Rome wasn't built in a day. The one truth is I am loving this sub even though I have only seen one movie, and several demoes from a few other movies with it, and it has bought a big smile to my face already. Is there a pdf file available to male it easier to printout and refer to. Please let me know,
Quote:
Originally Posted by richlife View Post
I want to join those who have thanked @mthomas47 for this guide! Thanks, Mike! I'm still wading my way through it, but find it's just incredibly absorbing, informative and USEFUL! So much good stuff in a relatively small space. ("Small" -- 118 pages when loaded to MS Word!)

And while on the topic, I've only done a quick glance and search through this thread, but I saw a comment about publishing. When I originally realized the size of the main doc, I knew I would never finish it in one reading or even likely within a few weeks, so I did a copy into Word -- very easy. That also allows me to set a bookmark and jump right to that spot (Bookmark - Goto) when starting again. (Insert on top menu, Links, Bookmark, select one or type a new one -- I use my name, Add. A link is inserted where the cursor sits in the doc. When ready for a new one, Delete the bookmark, re-type the name and Add. Or insert multiples to get back to certain pages.) Something similar can probably be done with other read/review apps.

And one question: I see the comments about this doc being general enough to apply to other EQ systems including YPAO. Are there significant exceptions -- in particular, the 8-point mic placement? I've found other recent (much briefer) docs that describe similar placement (although, Mike, your detailed explanation is far better and more specific and is what I plan to use to redo my room EQ -- after I finish reading the doc and get my AMP100VS back from warranty repair). Perhaps you may provide the answer later in the doc, but I'd be interested in whether there are significant exceptions for YPAO from the specific material provided for Audyssey.

Finally, my wife appreciated the technical comment about WAF!
First, thank you both for your nice comments about the Guide! You are very welcome!

Rich, I appreciate the suggestion to copy the Guide as a Word document. I will try that. I actually lost the subsection on Pressure Vessel Gain in Section VII the other day. I have no idea what could have happened. I wanted to add something to it, and most of it was just gone. Fortunately, I was able to recreate most of the content from memory, although I'm sure that I used different words and examples. But, it scared me! Backing-up the Guide on Word sounds like a great solution.

With respect to Yamaha differences, there are several mentioned throughout the Guide. I will try to touch on a few from memory. I don't know how many microphone placements YPAO recommends during calibration, but I would use all of them. The Audyssey microphone pattern I recommended as a starting point should still be generally applicable.

Some Yamaha AVR's output a lower voltage signal to the subwoofers than most other AVR brands do. Where a particular Yamaha AVR model does that, it may be harder to get your subwoofers to come on from Auto Mode with a low trim level. Several ways to deal with that are explained at the end of Section II, in the subsection titled Gain Settings and Maximum Sub Output. Yamaha AVR's are specifically addressed in the last three paragraphs.

One other idiosyncrasy of Yamaha AVR's seems to be the inability to adjust the LPF of LFE. My understanding is that the default setting of 120Hz can't be changed. That has some implications for cascading crossovers, and perhaps for mid-bass clarity in general, but I would still give cascading crossovers a try if I wanted to. That is mentioned in Section III.

There may be other differences involving Yamaha or YPAO (not counting the specifics of the actual room EQ that is performed), but I don't know that I recall hearing of any others. If anyone can think of something like that, which should be added to the Guide, I can do it.

Regards,
Mike
darthray and tipsymcstaggers like this.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 08-21-2018 at 11:28 AM.
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