Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences - Page 19 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #541 of 1605 Old 08-21-2018, 11:50 AM
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[QUOTE=richlife;56674036]I want to join those who have thanked @mthomas47 for this guide! Thanks, Mike! I'm still wading my way through it, but find it's just incredibly absorbing, informative and USEFUL! So much good stuff in a relatively small space. ("Small" -- 118 pages when loaded to MS Word!)

And while on the topic, I've only done a quick glance and search through this thread, but I saw a comment about publishing. When I originally realized the size of the main doc, I knew I would never finish it in one reading or even likely within a few weeks, so I did a copy into Word -- very easy. That also allows me to set a bookmark and jump right to that spot (Bookmark - Goto) when starting again. (Insert on top menu, Links, Bookmark, select one or type a new one -- I use my name, Add. A link is inserted where the cursor sits in the doc. When ready for a new one, Delete the bookmark, re-type the name and Add. Or insert multiples to get back to certain pages.) Something similar can probably be done with other read/review apps.


@richlife I wanted to thank you as well for the suggestion to copy the document to Word, and the info on setting up bookmarks. That was very helpful.
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post #542 of 1605 Old 08-21-2018, 03:52 PM
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This is Chuck mentioned above with dialogue clarity issues. Referring to BR2049 and the fact that I had to raise center 9db to hear the voices. Many thought that was a setup issue, plus me ears. LOL.

While I wait for my new Klipsch 14As to up grade the Onkyo 410s, I redid my setup. I have an Onkyo 787 AVR and thus have to use AccuEQ. It is quite different than Audessy. No walkthrough, I can find. It uses 3 positions The first is like Audessy; but 2 & 3 do a standing wave check, then magic happens and an EQ is saved.
That is where I started this morning. Then went old school and checked with my SPL meter to see what db levels were? Most were very close to ref 75, except my 2 subs were less than 60! Can't explain.. I had to turn the gain from 12 to 1 oc to get back to 75.. At this point, i DID NOT rerun EQ Same room,etc.. Next, I turned on 2049. When, the first dialog starts at abt 6 minutes I had to turn center up to +6 db from a ref of -6db or 12 db. Egads. NO CCading. Basically, all speakers 80hz, LFE 120, sub xo 150 at this point.

Now, I did the CC dance and reran the same 2049 scene. After 7 or 8 iterations, I arrived at speakers 80 (no chg) LFE xo 80 and subs xo 88hz.... Now center set to -1.5db or 4.5 db chg from ref.. Life is better!

Tomorrow I will install the 14A and rerun AccuEQ, recheck SPL values and reset the CCading values.

Any comments will be welcome. Sure wish another Onkyo owner was commenting. And, as I understand, there is not an Audessy version for Onkyo anymore?


EDIT: After thinking some more, I experimented with pure stereo vs atmos. What I discovered is "chesty" bass is the problem. This Onkyo receiver does no offer a "small or large" speaker choice. Each speaker has a scalable xo value from 40hz to 200 hz. Per ccading, all were 80hz. I changed the center to 60 and much clear voices.
Does that make sense?
Also, I have a Denon 4400 coming Friday.. OVERKILL ??

Samsung UN82MU8000 4K UHD TV | Yamaha RX-A2070 9.2 AVR with Klipsch R-15M L&R and R-34C front stage speakers | Klipsch G-12 surrounds | 4 Atrium 5 front & rear Tops | Dual BIC RtR EV-1200 Subs | 5.1.4 Atmos system | Samsung UBD M9500 BD Player | FireTV 4K | Logitech Harmony 750 | TIVO BOLT OTA 849000 | AppleTV 4K | miniDSP 2 X 4 |

Last edited by Chuck666; 08-22-2018 at 10:49 AM.
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post #543 of 1605 Old 08-22-2018, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck666 View Post
This is Chuck mentioned above with dialogue clarity issues. Referring to BR2049 and the fact that I had to raise center 9db to hear the voices. Many thought that was a setup issue, plus me ears. LOL.

While I wait for my new Klipsch 14As to up grade the Onkyo 410s, I redid my setup. I have an Onkyo 787 AVR and thus have to use AccuEQ. It is quite different than Audessy. No walkthrough, I can find. It uses 3 positions The first is like Audessy; but 2 & 3 do a standing wave check, then magic happens and an EQ is saved.
That is where I started this morning. Then went old school and checked with my SPL meter to see what db levels were? Most were very close to ref 75, except my 2 subs were less than 60! Can't explain.. I had to turn the gain from 12 to 1 oc to get back to 75.. At this point, i DID NOT rerun EQ Same room,etc.. Next, I turned on 2049. When, the first dialog starts at abt 6 minutes I had to turn center up to +6 db from a ref of -6db or 12 db. Egads. NO CCading. Basically, all speakers 80hz, LFE 120, sub xo 150 at this point.

Now, I did the CC dance and reran the same 2049 scene. After 7 or 8 iterations, I arrived at speakers 80 (no chg) LFE xo 80 and subs xo 88hz.... Now center set to -1.5db or 4.5 db chg from ref.. Life is better!

Tomorrow I will install the 14A and rerun AccuEQ, recheck SPL values and reset the CCading values.

Any comments will be welcome. Sure wish another Onkyo owner was commenting. And, as I understand, there is not an Audessy version for Onkyo anymore?

Hi Chuck

I was think about your Center sound problem.

By any chance, is your Center situated much lower or higher than your main, for where the Tweeter is in relation to each other?
If so, it could be remedy with a simple angle-it, up or down, and I could send you simple instructions, on how to do it properly.

This way you can keep it's current location.
Also a picture of your front set-up, would speak a thousand words.


Ray
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Last edited by darthray; 08-22-2018 at 07:04 AM.
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post #544 of 1605 Old 08-22-2018, 08:13 AM
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Ray,

See below. They are essentially in line. 17 inches difference. The center is angled up and points at my nose..LOL

The picture was posted in the ATMOS forum. It is already out of date.. I'm replacing the two Onkyo upfiring 410s with 2 Klipsch 14As to mount as front top speakers.
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Samsung UN82MU8000 4K UHD TV | Yamaha RX-A2070 9.2 AVR with Klipsch R-15M L&R and R-34C front stage speakers | Klipsch G-12 surrounds | 4 Atrium 5 front & rear Tops | Dual BIC RtR EV-1200 Subs | 5.1.4 Atmos system | Samsung UBD M9500 BD Player | FireTV 4K | Logitech Harmony 750 | TIVO BOLT OTA 849000 | AppleTV 4K | miniDSP 2 X 4 |

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post #545 of 1605 Old 08-22-2018, 09:05 AM
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Please help....what is the recommended settings for my sub?

AVR
Denon AVR-S940H
https://usa.denon.com/us/product/hom...ivers/avrs940h

Surround sound setup
Jamo S 809 HCS
http://www.jamo.com/products/s-809-hcs

Subwoofer
Cambridge Audio Minx X201 Subwoofer
https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/usa/en/products/minx
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post #546 of 1605 Old 08-22-2018, 10:53 AM
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SEE my edit

Samsung UN82MU8000 4K UHD TV | Yamaha RX-A2070 9.2 AVR with Klipsch R-15M L&R and R-34C front stage speakers | Klipsch G-12 surrounds | 4 Atrium 5 front & rear Tops | Dual BIC RtR EV-1200 Subs | 5.1.4 Atmos system | Samsung UBD M9500 BD Player | FireTV 4K | Logitech Harmony 750 | TIVO BOLT OTA 849000 | AppleTV 4K | miniDSP 2 X 4 |
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post #547 of 1605 Old 08-22-2018, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck666 View Post
This is Chuck mentioned above with dialogue clarity issues. Referring to BR2049 and the fact that I had to raise center 9db to hear the voices. Many thought that was a setup issue, plus me ears. LOL.

While I wait for my new Klipsch 14As to up grade the Onkyo 410s, I redid my setup. I have an Onkyo 787 AVR and thus have to use AccuEQ. It is quite different than Audessy. No walkthrough, I can find. It uses 3 positions The first is like Audessy; but 2 & 3 do a standing wave check, then magic happens and an EQ is saved.
That is where I started this morning. Then went old school and checked with my SPL meter to see what db levels were? Most were very close to ref 75, except my 2 subs were less than 60! Can't explain.. I had to turn the gain from 12 to 1 oc to get back to 75.. At this point, i DID NOT rerun EQ Same room,etc.. Next, I turned on 2049. When, the first dialog starts at abt 6 minutes I had to turn center up to +6 db from a ref of -6db or 12 db. Egads. NO CCading. Basically, all speakers 80hz, LFE 120, sub xo 150 at this point.

Now, I did the CC dance and reran the same 2049 scene. After 7 or 8 iterations, I arrived at speakers 80 (no chg) LFE xo 80 and subs xo 88hz.... Now center set to -1.5db or 4.5 db chg from ref.. Life is better!

Tomorrow I will install the 14A and rerun AccuEQ, recheck SPL values and reset the CCading values.

Any comments will be welcome. Sure wish another Onkyo owner was commenting. And, as I understand, there is not an Audessy version for Onkyo anymore?


EDIT: After thinking some more, I experimented with pure stereo vs atmos. What I discovered is "chesty" bass is the problem. This Onkyo receiver does no offer a "small or large" speaker choice. Each speaker has a scalable xo value from 40hz to 200 hz. Per ccading, all were 80hz. I changed the center to 60 and much clear voices.
Does that make sense?
Also, I have a Denon 4400 coming Friday.. OVERKILL ??

Hi Chuck,

Unfortunately, current Onkyo's don't offer Audyssey. AccuEQ is Onkyo's own proprietary room EQ. My understanding is that AccuEQ doesn't do much with bass frequencies. The chesty bass you are describing makes perfect sense, and so does your solution. Having bass added to voices makes them much harder to understand. The whole purpose behind cascading crossovers, as I see it, is to keep subwoofers from affecting upper mid-bass frequencies too much. But, it sounds as if your Onkyo weren't really allowing you to do that.

I try not to get involved in any discussions of whether some AVR's do or don't have distinctive sound signatures, much less which ones may sound better to someone. So, who knows who likes what in that respect? But, from a strictly functional standpoint (including Audyssey with XT-32), the Denon 4400 you have coming Friday should perform much better for what you want. And, I can definitely help you to troubleshoot Audyssey, if necessary.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #548 of 1605 Old 08-22-2018, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goke313 View Post
Please help....what is the recommended settings for my sub?

AVR
Denon AVR-S940H
https://usa.denon.com/us/product/hom...ivers/avrs940h

Surround sound setup
Jamo S 809 HCS
http://www.jamo.com/products/s-809-hcs

Subwoofer
Cambridge Audio Minx X201 Subwoofer
https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/usa/en/products/minx

Hi,

The very first post in this thread has some setting tips in the Cliff Notes that will help to get you started. More detailed information is distributed throughout the Guide, but reading the Introduction to the Guide will also help.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #549 of 1605 Old 08-22-2018, 12:34 PM
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First, thank you both for your nice comments about the Guide! You are very welcome!

Rich, I appreciate the suggestion to copy the Guide as a Word document. I will try that. I actually lost the subsection on Pressure Vessel Gain in Section VII the other day. I have no idea what could have happened. I wanted to add something to it, and most of it was just gone. Fortunately, I was able to recreate most of the content from memory, although I'm sure that I used different words and examples. But, it scared me! Backing-up the Guide on Word sounds like a great solution.

...

Regards,
Mike
Thanks for the pointers, Mike. I noted those points as I read so I expect to be ok. Everything you mentioned, as you note, seems to have relevance for the Yamaha (except unfortunately, the missing LPF adjustment).

On the Pressure Vessel Gain, I saved my copy to word Aug 10. I searched on that term and got 15 hits. If my version is the one involved and you think it will help, I can copy those sections and PM them to you.
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Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
Base: Mirage OM-6 (FLR), MC-si (C), OM-R2 (SLR), FRx-nine (BLR)
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post #550 of 1605 Old 08-22-2018, 12:35 PM
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Chuck,

Unfortunately, current Onkyo's don't offer Audyssey. AccuEQ is Onkyo's own proprietary room EQ. My understanding is that AccuEQ doesn't do much with bass frequencies. The chesty bass you are describing makes perfect sense, and so does your solution. Having bass added to voices makes them much harder to understand. The whole purpose behind cascading crossovers, as I see it, is to keep subwoofers from affecting upper mid-bass frequencies too much. But, it sounds as if your Onkyo weren't really allowing you to do that.

I try not to get involved in any discussions of whether some AVR's do or don't have distinctive sound signatures, much less which ones may sound better to someone. So, who knows who likes what in that respect? But, from a strictly functional standpoint (including Audyssey with XT-32), the Denon 4400 you have coming Friday should perform much better for what you want. And, I can definitely help you to troubleshoot Audyssey, if necessary.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks Mike, et al,
It's a $400 pill to swallow. I've just such a frugal old bastard, it's hard. $2000 cause I wanted to try ATMOS. Yikes. I'm insane!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now, I believe, I understand why I was going bonkers...…………….

Samsung UN82MU8000 4K UHD TV | Yamaha RX-A2070 9.2 AVR with Klipsch R-15M L&R and R-34C front stage speakers | Klipsch G-12 surrounds | 4 Atrium 5 front & rear Tops | Dual BIC RtR EV-1200 Subs | 5.1.4 Atmos system | Samsung UBD M9500 BD Player | FireTV 4K | Logitech Harmony 750 | TIVO BOLT OTA 849000 | AppleTV 4K | miniDSP 2 X 4 |
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post #551 of 1605 Old 08-22-2018, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richlife View Post
Thanks for the pointers, Mike. I noted those points as I read so I expect to be ok. Everything you mentioned, as you note, seems to have relevance for the Yamaha (except unfortunately, the missing LPF adjustment).

On the Pressure Vessel Gain, I saved my copy to word Aug 10. I searched on that term and got 15 hits. If my version is the one involved and you think it will help, I can copy those sections and PM them to you.

You are welcome, Rich! I appreciate the offer to send me an earlier version of the subsection on PVG. I think I covered it pretty well the second time around, but it would be nice to compare what I wrote to the earlier version. I copied my Guide yesterday as a Word document, and then immediately thereafter started to reformat the subsection headings to make it easier to navigate. So, what I copied yesterday is already obsolete. I have some work left to do to get headings and internal links the way I have decided I want them.

But, I think I will start backing the Guide up about once a month from now on. AVS can be very glitchy, especially when a single post is as long as that one.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #552 of 1605 Old 08-22-2018, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
You are welcome, Rich! I appreciate the offer to send me an earlier version of the subsection on PVG. I think I covered it pretty well the second time around, but it would be nice to compare what I wrote to the earlier version. I copied my Guide yesterday as a Word document, and then immediately thereafter started to reformat the subsection headings to make it easier to navigate. So, what I copied yesterday is already obsolete. I have some work left to do to get headings and internal links the way I have decided I want them.

But, I think I will start backing the Guide up about once a month from now on. AVS can be very glitchy, especially when a single post is as long as that one.

Regards,
Mike
OK, PM sent.

Backup... Yup! My wife and I both retired from technology support position -- we believe in backup. Though on our own now, each of us manually backs up our individual laptops to an off-machine drive once a week. It took us years to get to the point we just accept the need and do it. Day-to-day our machines automatically backup via the apps, websites, or cloud services. Once a week it's "hands-on"

Frankly, over my career I lost more work due to fumble-fingers or hickups in the backup process than I ever managed to recover. But once a week... I'm not obsessive -- but this behavior is.
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Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
Base: Mirage OM-6 (FLR), MC-si (C), OM-R2 (SLR), FRx-nine (BLR)
Presence: ELAC A4s (FP), RSL C34Es (RP); 2 aci Titan subs; RP amp: AudioSource AMP100VS
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post #553 of 1605 Old 08-22-2018, 02:13 PM
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OK, PM sent.

Backup... Yup! My wife and I both retired from technology support position -- we believe in backup. Though on our own now, each of us manually backs up our individual laptops to an off-machine drive once a week. It took us years to get to the point we just accept the need and do it. Day-to-day our machines automatically backup via the apps, websites, or cloud services. Once a week it's "hands-on"

Frankly, over my career I lost more work due to fumble-fingers or hickups in the backup process than I ever managed to recover. But once a week... I'm not obsessive -- but this behavior is.
+1

LOL...I too am retired from I.T, and have learned the "hard way" and from numerous client experiences to "back up."

Epson: 5040UB | Elite: 115" Fixed Frame CinemaScope (2.35:1) | Onkyo: TX-RZ920 + M-5010 (7.2.4) | Klipsch: RF-7 II's, RC-64 II, RS-62 II, RB-61 II MICCA: M-8C (Atmos) x 6 | SVS: PB16-Ultra x 2 | Philips: BDP7501, Panasonic: DMP UB900, Oppo: UDP-203
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post #554 of 1605 Old 08-22-2018, 03:59 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, PM sent.

Backup... Yup! My wife and I both retired from technology support position -- we believe in backup. Though on our own now, each of us manually backs up our individual laptops to an off-machine drive once a week. It took us years to get to the point we just accept the need and do it. Day-to-day our machines automatically backup via the apps, websites, or cloud services. Once a week it's "hands-on"

Frankly, over my career I lost more work due to fumble-fingers or hickups in the backup process than I ever managed to recover. But once a week... I'm not obsessive -- but this behavior is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gene4ht View Post
+1

LOL...I too am retired from I.T, and have learned the "hard way" and from numerous client experiences to "back up."

Now, I'll know who to ask if I need tech support, a not infrequent occurrence, and especially so on AVS.

I haven't received the PM yet, so perhaps some AVS tech support is in order now. I know that sometimes when PM's exceed AVS's length restrictions, they simply don't get sent. I wonder if that could have happened in this case? That subsection was fairly long.
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 08-22-2018 at 05:39 PM.
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post #555 of 1605 Old 08-22-2018, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuck666 View Post
Ray,

See below. They are essentially in line. 17 inches difference. The center is angled up and points at my nose..LOL

The picture was posted in the ATMOS forum. It is already out of date.. I'm replacing the two Onkyo upfiring 410s with 2 Klipsch 14As to mount as front top speakers.

Sorry buddy

I thought it might have been part of the problem.
Since you already have-it angle-up, that part is well taken care.

If, I think of something else, I will post again.


Ray
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post #556 of 1605 Old 08-22-2018, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuck666 View Post
Thanks Mike, et al,
It's a $400 pill to swallow. I've just such a frugal old bastard, it's hard. $2000 cause I wanted to try ATMOS. Yikes. I'm insane!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now, I believe, I understand why I was going bonkers...…………….

You will enjoy-it

That said, do not expect to be overbearing, like when surrounds sound came out, and was expected to be.
Instead, it just had some overall enveloping sound, and once in a while, that special sound effect going from front to ceiling and surrounds effect, in those moments, you Wow

I'm glad I did, it was a $5000 up-grade, to replace my previous AVP, add an amp and 4 ceiling speakers.
And never regraded doing-it.


Enjoy!


Ray
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post #557 of 1605 Old 08-22-2018, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
You are welcome, Rich! I appreciate the offer to send me an earlier version of the subsection on PVG. I think I covered it pretty well the second time around, but it would be nice to compare what I wrote to the earlier version. I copied my Guide yesterday as a Word document, and then immediately thereafter started to reformat the subsection headings to make it easier to navigate. So, what I copied yesterday is already obsolete. I have some work left to do to get headings and internal links the way I have decided I want them.

But, I think I will start backing the Guide up about once a month from now on. AVS can be very glitchy, especially when a single post is as long as that one.

Regards,
Mike

Yes it can


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The reason why I got so many Edit, it this post and edit now for me, it sucks.


Ray
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post #558 of 1605 Old 08-22-2018, 07:41 PM
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I'm currently using an Onkyo TX-NR676 with a BIC PL200ii subwoofer.

After following the guide as closely as I could, I've settled on a subwoofer level of around 3 o'clock (not quite 3/4 on the dial) and LFE level at -10 on the AVR. Since the Onkyo doesn't have Audyssey, I've had to manually adjust the level of my center channel and surround right to get a level SPL across all channels. Not a big deal, just me being OCD more than anything.

Question is, when I'm manually calibrating the subwoofer SPL in relation to the other speakers in my 5.1 arrangement, does the subwoofer need to match the SPL of the other speakers, or does it need to be a few decibels higher? (i.e. if all speakers are at 50dB when playing test tones, does the subwoofer also need to be 50dB?)

Thanks!
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post #559 of 1605 Old 08-22-2018, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuck666 View Post
I wanted to try ATMOS. Yikes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
You will enjoy-it

That said, do not expect to be overbearing, like when surrounds sound came out, and was expected to be.
Instead, it just had some overall enveloping sound, and once in a while, that special sound effect going from front to ceiling and surrounds effect, in those moments, you Wow

I'm glad I did, it was a $5000 up-grade, to replace my previous AVP, add an amp and 4 ceiling speakers.
And never regraded doing-it.
I'm in agreement with Ray! 3D sound (Atmos, DTS:X, Auro) takes surround sound to the next immersion level. As Ray also mentions, all source material is not created equal as the implementation, quality, and usage of 3D sound varies with studios and mixers. However, in general, new releases are better than previous releases as Hollywood climbs the Atmos mixing learning curve. Where a year ago, some Atmos releases fell short of demonstrating its capability, we now have an abundance of demo worthy releases. Lastly, there has been unexpected and surprising benefits from the 3D sound codecs. Atmos's upmixer (DSU) and DTS:X's upmixer (Neural:X) breathe new life into non Atmos and non DTS:X titles by adding overhead sound information resulting in faux Atmos and DTS:X imaging. Consequently, many people begin rewatching the non Atmos titles in their collections and are amazed at the results. BTW, Atmos is not only applicable to movies but also music. Hans Zimmer: Live in Prague and The Wall: Live in Berlin are great examples. Of course, the full enjoyment and appreciation of these Atmos titles are not possible without a quality and properly set up subwoofer(s).
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Originally Posted by iiK0NiiK View Post
I'm currently using an Onkyo TX-NR676 with a BIC PL200ii subwoofer.

After following the guide as closely as I could, I've settled on a subwoofer level of around 3 o'clock (not quite 3/4 on the dial) and LFE level at -10 on the AVR. Since the Onkyo doesn't have Audyssey, I've had to manually adjust the level of my center channel and surround right to get a level SPL across all channels. Not a big deal, just me being OCD more than anything.

Question is, when I'm manually calibrating the subwoofer SPL in relation to the other speakers in my 5.1 arrangement, does the subwoofer need to match the SPL of the other speakers, or does it need to be a few decibels higher? (i.e. if all speakers are at 50dB when playing test tones, does the subwoofer also need to be 50dB?)

Thanks!

Hi,

I'm not very familiar with Onkyo. When you say that the LFE level in the AVR is at -10, do you mean that the subwoofer trim level in the AVR is at -10? I think I recall that Onkyo subwoofer trims go lower than -10, and if so, then your trim level should be fine.

Most people will want to start with the subwoofer set to the same level as the regular channels. That way, if you add a subwoofer boost, you will know how much you are boosting your subwoofer in relation to the other channels. In theory, when your Onkyo does an automated calibration, it will be calibrating your audio system so that a master volume level of 0.0 will correspond to 'Reference' levels for 5.1 movies. That isn't strictly necessary, but it does give us a common basis for comparison if we want to talk about our master volume levels and our subwoofer boosts.

Onkyo should be using a 75db test tone to automatically calibrate your audio system to Reference. Saying that you may be manually using a hypothetical 50db test tone throws me a little. If I were you, I would let your Onkyo do the initial automated calibration. You can always make manual adjustments to it afterwards, but it should be fairly accurate for the regular channels, even if the subwoofer levels are off. I have heard several people say that the subwoofer levels typically are off with AccuEQ, but I can't confirm that personally.

Once you have calibrated your system, however, so that all of the channels are set to play at approximately the same level with a 75db test tone, you can make any user-preference changes you want to make. Most people probably add a couple of decibels to the center channel, for instance. And, nearly everyone increases the volume on the subwoofer in order to enjoy the amount of bass that they like. The initial calibration, based on 75db just gives us a common starting point. After that, by all means increase the volume on your BIC to any level that you prefer, and that your subwoofer can play without distortion.

I hope this explanation helps!

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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Originally Posted by gene4ht View Post
I'm in agreement with Ray! 3D sound (Atmos, DTS:X, Auro) takes surround sound to the next immersion level. As Ray also mentions, all source material is not created equal as the quality and usage of 3D sound varies with studios and mixers. However, in general, new releases are better than previous releases as Hollywood climbs the Atmos mixing learning curve. Where a year ago, some Atmos releases fell short of demonstrating its capability, we now have an abundance of demo worthy releases. Lastly, there has been unexpected and surprising benefits from the 3D sound codecs. Atmos's upmixer (DSU) and DTS:X's upmixer (Neural:X) breathe new life into non Atmos and non DTS:X titles by adding overhead sound information resulting in faux Atmos and DTS:X imaging. Consequently, many people begin rewatching the non Atmos titles in their collections and are amazed at the results. BTW, Atmos is not only applicable to movies but also music. Hans Zimmer: Live in Prague and The Wall: Live in Berlin are great examples. Of course, the full enjoyment and appreciation of these Atmos titles are not possible without a quality and properly set up subwoofer(s).

I could not agree more on this one

The upmixer do a very job at-it, to produce overhead sound.
Very nice option to have, for those movies only release in 5.1/7.1, without Atmos or DTS:X
Always happy with results

And as you said, Hollywood is learning very fast about the production of Atmos/DTS:X mix, and now are getting very good at-it. I sure it will only get better in the future.


Ray
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post #562 of 1605 Old 08-23-2018, 07:25 AM
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...

I haven't received the PM yet, so perhaps some AVS tech support is in order now. I know that sometimes when PM's exceed AVS's length restrictions, they simply don't get sent. I wonder if that could have happened in this case? That subsection was fairly long.
Yeah, you're right. In trying to resend, I saw the error message this time. I sent PMs explaining.

If you will PM me an email address, I'll attached that section as a file.

Sorry for the delay, Rich

Edit: Ok, file sent.
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Atmos/DTS:X HT in Vaulted Room -- LG OLED Settings Options
Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
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Presence: ELAC A4s (FP), RSL C34Es (RP); 2 aci Titan subs; RP amp: AudioSource AMP100VS

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I think I recall that Onkyo subwoofer trims go lower than -10...

That's correct...where D+M's trim range is -12 to +12, Onkyo's trim range is -15 to +12.
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Lightbulb Guide Edits!

The Guide edits I am announcing this time are not substantive in terms of the addition of a new subsection. But, they are meaningful to me from the standpoint of the work involved, and from the standpoint of reader navigation. I have put the Table of Contents in Post 1, and I have added all of the subsections to the Table of Contents with their own hyperlinks. Readers can click on the section and subsection links to go directly to those parts of the Guide, and they can copy them for others.

I have also moved the Introduction to the Guide into the first post. This won't change anything for anyone showing a link to the Guide in his signature. That always went to Post 1 anyway, which is why I think it makes sense to have all of the introductory material there. I believe that doing this will improve the overall usability of the Guide.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I'm not very familiar with Onkyo. When you say that the LFE level in the AVR is at -10, do you mean that the subwoofer trim level in the AVR is at -10? I think I recall that Onkyo subwoofer trims go lower than -10, and if so, then your trim level should be fine.

Most people will want to start with the subwoofer set to the same level as the regular channels. That way, if you add a subwoofer boost, you will know how much you are boosting your subwoofer in relation to the other channels. In theory, when your Onkyo does an automated calibration, it will be calibrating your audio system so that a master volume level of 0.0 will correspond to 'Reference' levels for 5.1 movies. That isn't strictly necessary, but it does give us a common basis for comparison if we want to talk about our master volume levels and our subwoofer boosts.

Onkyo should be using a 75db test tone to automatically calibrate your audio system to Reference. Saying that you may be manually using a hypothetical 50db test tone throws me a little. If I were you, I would let your Onkyo do the initial automated calibration. You can always make manual adjustments to it afterwards, but it should be fairly accurate for the regular channels, even if the subwoofer levels are off. I have heard several people say that the subwoofer levels typically are off with AccuEQ, but I can't confirm that personally.

Once you have calibrated your system, however, so that all of the channels are set to play at approximately the same level with a 75db test tone, you can make any user-preference changes you want to make. Most people probably add a couple of decibels to the center channel, for instance. And, nearly everyone increases the volume on the subwoofer in order to enjoy the amount of bass that they like. The initial calibration, based on 75db just gives us a common starting point. After that, by all means increase the volume on your BIC to any level that you prefer, and that your subwoofer can play without distortion.

I hope this explanation helps!

Regards,
Mike
Thanks, Mike. That answered my question exactly. For clarification, I did perform the initial setup and "AccuEq" calibration with the Onkyo. Post calibration, I then increased the levels of the center channel and the surround channels just a bit to my liking.

Problem with AccuEq was that it set the subwoofer level on the AVR at +5 which was WAY too loud. I adjusted down to -10 out of -14 and it sounded more equal to the other speakers. I then used a SPL app on my phone to check the levels of all channels, I just wasn't sure if the SPL of the sub needed to match the rest of the channels, or be slightly louder.

Thanks again for your help!
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post #566 of 1605 Old 08-23-2018, 03:44 PM
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Been an interesting few weeks! I made a few upgrades this year to my setup as we all know till properly setup,we can wonder why oh why didn't I leave well enough alone! First up were switching out a few acoustic panels from broadband to some of the GIK Alpha and Impression lines, next up was upgrading the Marantz 8802 to the newer 8805 (simply loving this thing) and adding an Rythmik F18 sub to the rear of the room. The subs at the front are a stack of Kresiel DXD12012's total of( 4 12" drivers) and the combination of the two play extremely well together. Lastly was the use of the Audyssey app, here I was after mostly limiting correction on my mains (Boston Acoustic E100's) which can cast a soundstage that can haunt ones dreams! I'm 2/ch just about 80% of my listening but I try to never with in reason compromise any system aspect. To get down to my post, I found the time two weeks ago to breakout REW and mic and do the sub distance tweek and ended up adding 7ms to what Audyssey had set them at, I had already spent time playing with the Audyssey app and came to really like the following setup for all speakers using the app to limit correction with all using an 80hz crossover in a 7.1.4 setup. Mains are corrected up to 250hz with all other speakers up to 5000hz no midrange compensation used except for the center channel. To get things to this point took extreme trail and error but that sweet little app made it a breeze. Back to REW, I was able to smooth out the crossover point to from anywhere smoothly from 60-90hz but settled on 80hz and the results were very amazing indeed.

This all leads me to today! I finally got around to Cascading the crossovers! The results? Man oh Man the midrange clarity and tactility are almost tangible and sorry for the use of a few Audiophile lingo but the pitch and definition are just as sure footed as a mountain goat! The spatial rendering behind and in front of the speakers all the way to the mlp is just a sheer pleasure to hear no smearing what so ever! The subs a starting and stopping even faster than what was precieved before. I choose these particular subs for a reason,and that was clean distortion free bass regardless of the note there producing(DXD's use pushpull/Ryhtmik uses Servo) and both are world class leaders at doing so.

Now I know there's no such thing as a free lunch! The skeptic in me is just waiting for something to say Hmm! a scramble back to defaullt But as it stands today I'm loving the feels like I finally got my bass back like the old days but packaged with all the things I all ways new could make it better i.e smother crossover , no nulls peaks etc..

Now as to a bit more insight as to just what in the world is going on and while refreshing myself on the matter I came across this link that stood out. Till I breakout REW again for myself (not today as I'm staying right here were the ears have spoken and @Alanp didn't feel the need to do another distance tweek as the sound was spot on!

https://forums.audioholics.com/forum...ssovers.37018/





Mike and others like you AlanP darthray and many others here on AVS, thanks for all you do man, as its what this sharing of info on this worldwide web is all about. Hats off to ya Sirs
Interesting! I went back to my default settings due to what may be considered to much of a good thing! What I found over listening was what could be described as to much of the crossover point,the effect was about the same as doing the sub distance tweak as it smoothed out the transition form mains and center to sub and until I can measure the Cascading does about the same in Theory and sound, while bass had more presence and all the goodies I noted in my original post, it also left a lot behind or just became to prominent, the effect was very evident no matter the recording or movie but first noticed during a tympani strike while listing to classical and I noticed to much blunting of the strike versus that of believe it or not texture. So for now its back to default but I would like to investigate when time allows to see if there is what I suspect in an increase in level around the crossover point (80hz in my case) which is that to much of a goodthing
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post #567 of 1605 Old 08-23-2018, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
The Guide edits I am announcing this time are not substantive in terms of the addition of a new subsection. But, they are meaningful to me from the standpoint of the work involved, and from the standpoint of reader navigation. I have put the Table of Contents in Post 1, and I have added all of the subsections to the Table of Contents with their own hyperlinks. Readers can click on the section and subsection links to go directly to those parts of the Guide, and they can copy them for others.

I have also moved the Introduction to the Guide into the first post. This won't change anything for anyone showing a link to the Guide in his signature. That always went to Post 1 anyway, which is why I think it makes sense to have all of the introductory material there. I believe that doing this will improve the overall usability of the Guide.

Regards,
Mike

I like this new format

Very well done!
And I see, You put lots of work into this first page

Too bad, Audio company, for there Monitor/projector, AVR/AVP, Blu-ray players, instruction on line or disk..
Do not apply the same level of a well done instruction manual, for the ease of finding something relevant , when doing your set-up, by a simple link.


Ray
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
I like this new format

Very well done!
And I see, You put lots of work into this first page

Too bad, Audio company, for there Monitor/projector, AVR/AVP, Blu-ray players, instruction on line or disk..
Do not apply the same level of a well done instruction manual, for the ease of finding something relevant , when doing your set-up, by a simple link.


Ray

Agree...far too many instruction manuals do not have the quality: i.e. ease of understanding, ease of use, and intuitiveness that Mike's work has demonstrated. Maybe Mike should quit his day job and offer/provide consulting services?
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Epson: 5040UB | Elite: 115" Fixed Frame CinemaScope (2.35:1) | Onkyo: TX-RZ920 + M-5010 (7.2.4) | Klipsch: RF-7 II's, RC-64 II, RS-62 II, RB-61 II MICCA: M-8C (Atmos) x 6 | SVS: PB16-Ultra x 2 | Philips: BDP7501, Panasonic: DMP UB900, Oppo: UDP-203
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post #569 of 1605 Old 08-23-2018, 05:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
I like this new format

Very well done!
And I see, You put lots of work into this first page

Too bad, Audio company, for there Monitor/projector, AVR/AVP, Blu-ray players, instruction on line or disk..
Do not apply the same level of a well done instruction manual, for the ease of finding something relevant , when doing your set-up, by a simple link.

Ray

Thank you very much, Ray! I had been thinking of doing this for a while, but I have been busy adding content, and I was also a little intimidated by the amount of work required. I have to preview, wait forever for it to load, and then correct, every time I add a paragraph, or change a font size, due to the random things that VerticalScope does to the spacing. And, when I correct one spacing issue, it often creates another problem somewhere else that I have to fix. But, I like it much better now, too.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #570 of 1605 Old 08-23-2018, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by gene4ht View Post
Agree...far too many instruction manuals do not have the quality: i.e. ease of understanding, ease of use, and intuitiveness that Mike's work has demonstrated. Maybe Mike should quit his day job and offer/provide consulting services?

+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Thank you very much, Ray! I had been thinking of doing this for a while, but I have been busy adding content, and I was also a little intimidated by the amount of work required. I have to preview, wait forever for it to load, and then correct, every time I add a paragraph, or change a font size, due to the random things that VerticalScope does to the spacing. And, when I correct one spacing issue, it often creates another problem somewhere else that I have to fix. But, I like it much better now, too.

Regards,
Mike

LOL


I thought, I was the only one having such problems, even with my simple posts or replies.


Ray
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