Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences - Page 20 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #571 of 1611 Old 08-23-2018, 05:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gene4ht View Post
Agree...far too many instruction manuals do not have the quality: i.e. ease of understanding, ease of use, and intuitiveness that Mike's work has demonstrated. Maybe Mike should quit his day job and offer/provide consulting services?

Thank you very much, Gene! That's a very nice compliment. Actually, my day job is in consulting.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #572 of 1611 Old 08-23-2018, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Thank you very much, Gene! That's a very nice compliment. Actually, my day job is in consulting.

You're welcome Mike! Actually, some professional qualities are easily recognized!
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post #573 of 1611 Old 08-24-2018, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Chuck,

Unfortunately, current Onkyo's don't offer Audyssey. AccuEQ is Onkyo's own proprietary room EQ. My understanding is that AccuEQ doesn't do much with bass frequencies. The chesty bass you are describing makes perfect sense, and so does your solution. Having bass added to voices makes them much harder to understand. The whole purpose behind cascading crossovers, as I see it, is to keep subwoofers from affecting upper mid-bass frequencies too much. But, it sounds as if your Onkyo weren't really allowing you to do that.

I try not to get involved in any discussions of whether some AVR's do or don't have distinctive sound signatures, much less which ones may sound better to someone. So, who knows who likes what in that respect? But, from a strictly functional standpoint (including Audyssey with XT-32), the Denon 4400 you have coming Friday should perform much better for what you want. And, I can definitely help you to troubleshoot Audyssey, if necessary.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks for the offer.. pics attached
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post #574 of 1611 Old 08-24-2018, 10:30 AM
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I´ve read the complete article done by @mthomas47 , which is very interesting and mostly understandable even for a rookie like me. Thank you.

I come here for help, because you have a lot of knowledgeable and I will use the Mike manual as a guide.
I have a room with 24x18x9 ft and two subs 12" in an ATMOS system 7.1.4.
The bass is good, but I feel the subs are not working as must do it.
I would like to know where is/are my problem and make a plan action to fix it.
I attach a graph taken from REW of my sub, so you can analize and give some feed back.
I hope some of you can help me.
Regards!
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post #575 of 1611 Old 08-24-2018, 11:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Chuck666 View Post
Thanks for the offer.. pics attached

Hi Chuck,

I will try to help a little, based on your pictures, but we will both know more once you run an Audyssey calibration or two. First, it appears to me that your speakers are well situated, and that the ones in the front sound stage are appropriately pointed toward your listening positions. Second, I like the fact that you have an area rug between your speakers and your listening chairs. And, I like the fact that your chairs are soft fabric. You should be able to get the Audyssey mic within 4" to 6" of your chair backs without worrying about comb filtering. The advice in this subsection should be helpful to you with respect to the actual Audyssey calibration.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...rences.html#IB

One thing that I see that is not as positive is that your listening distance is putting a lot of demand on that center speaker. From the photos, I would guess that you are about 14' from the speaker to where your head is. That's a pretty good distance for a fairly small speaker. The other thing I see is that you probably don't want to be using an 80Hz or lower crossover.

Klipsch is known to sometimes overstate their speaker/subwoofer specs. But, even the R-25C spec sheet shows the quasi-anechoic response of that speaker as being down 3db at 82Hz. So, the frequency response will drop-off fast below that point. Even with a little boundary gain, you probably don't want to run that speaker at less than about 100Hz. But, we will know more about that once your Denon sets a crossover for it post-calibration, based on it's measured in-room F3 point.

In my opinion, the center channel is the most important channel in an HT system--especially for movies--because it has to carry more than 80% of the total movie content, and all of the dialogue. When you have a chance to reload, I think that a more powerful center channel may make your life a little easier with respect to dialogue. But, meanwhile, just try to get a good Audyssey calibration and let's see what happens.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #576 of 1611 Old 08-24-2018, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rmerlano View Post
I´ve read the complete article done by @mthomas47 , which is very interesting and mostly understandable even for a rookie like me. Thank you.

I come here for help, because you have a lot of knowledgeable and I will use the Mike manual as a guide.
I have a room with 24x18x9 ft and two subs 12" in an ATMOS system 7.1.4.
The bass is good, but I feel the subs are not working as must do it.
I would like to know where is/are my problem and make a plan action to fix it.
I attach a graph taken from REW of my sub, so you can analize and give some feed back.
I hope some of you can help me.
Regards!

First, of all, welcome to the thread, and thanks for the compliment! I will give you a quick impression of what I see in your graph, but you may want to go to the REW thread to let them talk you through how to use REW and how to display your graphs in the right format. Here is a link to that thread:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...et-graphs.html

Here is what I see so far, although the SPL numbers look way high to me. You have a room of almost 4000^3. That means that you won't be getting a lot of room gain until you are under about 25 or 30Hz. You have two very handsome JBL subs. But, they are small sealed subs which are designed, according to their specs, to roll-off fairly strongly by 25Hz.

Looking at your graph, you have a nice peak at about 40Hz, but below 40Hz, your subwoofers are dropping-off steadily. There is a brief peak at about 22Hz which might be room gain, and then the bottom drops completely out on your frequency response. I assume that what you are lacking is low-bass. That is what I see in the graph, and that is what I would predict from two small sealed subs in a 3900^3 room.

I think that you can experiment more with subwoofer placement, and perhaps you can move your two subs close to your listening chair in order to gain a little more audible low-bass. But, I think that the long-term solution is probably going to be more powerful subwoofers if you really want more low-frequency SPL. The JBL subwoofers weren't cheap subwoofers at all, and they were very popular for music systems that didn't require much low-bass. But they really weren't designed to provide strong low-bass performance in a pretty large room. A couple of good ported subs will very easily surpass them in low-frequency performance.

I feel a little guilty that my last two posts on the thread are suggesting potential upgrades in order to optimize performance. But unfortunately, especially when it comes to subwoofers, the native frequency response and output is what it is. We can try to find ideal locations for our subwoofers, and even move them closer to our listening positions, but there isn't much we can do to enhance their low-frequency extension and low-bass SPL. I hope this helps a little.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #577 of 1611 Old 08-24-2018, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
First, of all, welcome to the thread, and thanks for the compliment! I will give you a quick impression of what I see in your graph, but you may want to go to the REW thread to let them talk you through how to use REW and how to display your graphs in the right format. Here is a link to that thread:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...et-graphs.html

Here is what I see so far, although the SPL numbers look way high to me. You have a room of almost 4000^3. That means that you won't be getting a lot of room gain until you are under about 25 or 30Hz. You have two very handsome JBL subs. But, they are small sealed subs which are designed, according to their specs, to roll-off fairly strongly by 25Hz.

Looking at your graph, you have a nice peak at about 40Hz, but below 40Hz, your subwoofers are dropping-off steadily. There is a brief peak at about 22Hz which might be room gain, and then the bottom drops completely out on your frequency response. I assume that what you are lacking is low-bass. That is what I see in the graph, and that is what I would predict from two small sealed subs in a 3900^3 room.

I think that you can experiment more with subwoofer placement, and perhaps you can move your two subs close to your listening chair in order to gain a little more audible low-bass. But, I think that the long-term solution is probably going to be more powerful subwoofers if you really want more low-frequency SPL. The JBL subwoofers weren't cheap subwoofers at all, and they were very popular for music systems that didn't require much low-bass. But they really weren't designed to provide strong low-bass performance in a pretty large room. A couple of good ported subs will very easily surpass them in low-frequency performance.

I feel a little guilty that my last two posts on the thread are suggesting potential upgrades in order to optimize performance. But unfortunately, especially when it comes to subwoofers, the native frequency response and output is what it is. We can try to find ideal locations for our subwoofers, and even move them closer to our listening positions, but there isn't much we can do to enhance their low-frequency extension and low-bass SPL. I hope this helps a little.

Regards,
Mike
Thank you for your quick answer and support, your answer is a great answer for me and, I guess, it puts me in the right direction.
I´ll try to experiment with more placement looking for an improvement, although I´ve done many changes regarding this, and very few changes I´ve experimented.

As you said, the subwoofer is behaving like it was designed, so no many improvement is gonna happen.
Months ago I have been looking for a subwoofer to change the experience in my room, and one the finalist is the HSU VFT-15H MK2 (I´ll buy one in short term and a second in mid term). It´s flexibility, cost, and user comments, have convinced me that is a very good option, even I would have liked a pair of 18" subs like either Rythmik or PSA, but the budget is limited.
Do you think that a pair of HSU is gonna make a notable difference in my room?
Thank you again!
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post #578 of 1611 Old 08-24-2018, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Chuck,

I will try to help a little, based on your pictures, but we will both know more once you run an Audyssey calibration or two. First, it appears to me that your speakers are well situated, and that the ones in the front sound stage are appropriately pointed toward your listening positions. Second, I like the fact that you have an area rug between your speakers and your listening chairs. And, I like the fact that your chairs are soft fabric. You should be able to get the Audyssey mic within 4" to 6" of your chair backs without worrying about comb filtering. The advice in this subsection should be helpful to you with respect to the actual Audyssey calibration.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...rences.html#IB

One thing that I see that is not as positive is that your listening distance is putting a lot of demand on that center speaker. From the photos, I would guess that you are about 14' from the speaker to where your head is. That's a pretty good distance for a fairly small speaker. The other thing I see is that you probably don't want to be using an 80Hz or lower crossover.

Klipsch is known to sometimes overstate their speaker/subwoofer specs. But, even the R-25C spec sheet shows the quasi-anechoic response of that speaker as being down 3db at 82Hz. So, the frequency response will drop-off fast below that point. Even with a little boundary gain, you probably don't want to run that speaker at less than about 100Hz. But, we will know more about that once your Denon sets a crossover for it post-calibration, based on it's measured in-room F3 point.

In my opinion, the center channel is the most important channel in an HT system--especially for movies--because it has to carry more than 80% of the total movie content, and all of the dialogue. When you have a chance to reload, I think that a more powerful center channel may make your life a little easier with respect to dialogue. But, meanwhile, just try to get a good Audyssey calibration and let's see what happens.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks for looking so closely at my HT photos. Actulally 11.5 to 12 ft is the distance depending on the chair's position;; upright or lounge..

Just got the Denon installed and the latest firmware installed. Need a geezer break ( short nap). LOL.. Will do reread the guide sections suggested and post something later in the day.

Again, thank you for your interest and assistance...
Chuck

Samsung UN82MU8000 4K UHD TV | Yamaha RX-A2070 9.2 AVR with Klipsch R-15M L&R and R-34C front stage speakers | Klipsch G-12 surrounds | 4 Atrium 5 front & rear Tops | Dual BIC RtR EV-1200 Subs | 5.1.4 Atmos system | Samsung UBD M9500 BD Player | FireTV 4K | Logitech Harmony 750 | TIVO BOLT OTA 849000 | AppleTV 4K | miniDSP 2 X 4 |
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post #579 of 1611 Old 08-24-2018, 01:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rmerlano View Post
Thank you for your quick answer and support, your answer is a great answer for me and, I guess, it puts me in the right direction.
I´ll try to experiment with more placement looking for an improvement, although I´ve done many changes regarding this, and very few changes I´ve experimented.

As you said, the subwoofer is behaving like it was designed, so no many improvement is gonna happen.
Months ago I have been looking for a subwoofer to change the experience in my room, and one the finalist is the HSU VFT-15H MK2 (I´ll buy one in short term and a second in mid term). It´s flexibility, cost, and user comments, have convinced me that is a very good option, even I would have liked a pair of 18" subs like either Rythmik or PSA, but the budget is limited.
Do you think that a pair of HSU is gonna make a notable difference in my room?
Thank you again!

You are very welcome! I think that one 15H MK2 soon, and another one when you can, will be a terrific solution. Those subwoofers are excellent performers, and just one of them should easily exceed both of your JBL subs under about 35Hz. If you currently miss hearing and feeling the low-bass in movies, then the difference should be very noticeable. The situation will only improve when you can add the second one.
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #580 of 1611 Old 08-24-2018, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
You are very welcome! I think that one 15H MK2 soon, and another one when you can, will be a terrific solution. Those subwoofers are excellent performers, and just one of them should easily exceed both of your JBL subs under about 35Hz. If you currently miss hearing and feeling the low-bass in movies, then the difference should be very noticeable. The situation will only improve when you can add the second one.
I´m close to pull the trigger!!! hahaha

I´ll move forward to those HSU, I´ll keep you updated.

Thank you.
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post #581 of 1611 Old 08-24-2018, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck666 View Post
Thanks for looking so closely at my HT photos. Actulally 11.5 to 12 ft is the distance depending on the chair's position;; upright or lounge..

Just got the Denon installed and the latest firmware installed. Need a geezer break ( short nap). LOL.. Will do reread the guide sections suggested and post something later in the day.

Again, thank you for your interest and assistance...
Chuck
Data from Audyssey... 8 positions 2 ft square about MLP

FL 12.1 FT -3.0db 60Hz
FR 12.1 -3.0
C 11.7 -4.5 60
SW1 14.9 -11.5 LPF/LFE 120
SW2 14.9 -12.0
SL 6.3 0.0 110
SR 7.8 0.0
FHL 14.4 +1.0 90
FHR 14.4 +1.0
RHL 12.7 0.0 100
RHR 13.2 0.0

I see one subwoofer is a little hot. I noticed that is was a little higher than 1; but wanted to see the values...

Let the fun begin????

Generally, I think the chestiness is gone. Yeah. The center channel is quite low. Looking for spectrum spread? The option that lets you spead center with left and right fronts? MV seems to be needed higher 3-4 db?

Thanks gang..

Samsung UN82MU8000 4K UHD TV | Yamaha RX-A2070 9.2 AVR with Klipsch R-15M L&R and R-34C front stage speakers | Klipsch G-12 surrounds | 4 Atrium 5 front & rear Tops | Dual BIC RtR EV-1200 Subs | 5.1.4 Atmos system | Samsung UBD M9500 BD Player | FireTV 4K | Logitech Harmony 750 | TIVO BOLT OTA 849000 | AppleTV 4K | miniDSP 2 X 4 |
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post #582 of 1611 Old 08-24-2018, 04:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Chuck666 View Post
Data from Audyssey... 8 positions 2 ft square about MLP

FL 12.1 FT -3.0db 60Hz
FR 12.1 -3.0
C 11.7 -4.5 60
SW1 14.9 -11.5 LPF/LFE 120
SW2 14.9 -12.0
SL 6.3 0.0 110
SR 7.8 0.0
FHL 14.4 +1.0 90
FHR 14.4 +1.0
RHL 12.7 0.0 100
RHR 13.2 0.0

I see one subwoofer is a little hot. I noticed that is was a little higher than 1; but wanted to see the values...

Let the fun begin????

Generally, I think the chestiness is gone. Yeah. The center channel is quite low. Looking for spectrum spread? The option that lets you spead center with left and right fronts? MV seems to be needed higher 3-4 db?

Thanks gang..

Hi Chuck,

I'll take the last part first. The master volume returns to wherever you had it before you started your calibration. All Audyssey has done with the volume is to level-match all of your channels, and to set them to play "Reference" at a master volume of 0.0. But, how loudly you wish to listen is entirely up to you. The same thing applies to the volume of your center channel. You can turn it up several decibels if you want to. I have never really liked spreading out the content from the center channel into the other channels very much, but that doesn't say that you won't. The older version of Dolby Pro Logic will let you do that in Music Mode. You can try it if you still have that version of PLIIz in your Denon. Just change the surround mode to PLIIz Music. You can widen or shrink the center in that mode.

Looking at your crossovers and trim levels, I would set the crossovers for the front three at 90Hz. That 1/2 octave will give you some cushion. You don't normally want a subwoofer to have a trim level lower than -11.5, because -12 is as low as they go on Denon/Marantz, but since the other (symmetrical) one is -11.5, I probably wouldn't worry about it. I probably would reduce my LPF of LFE to 90Hz, though. That should help to keep the bass out of the upper mid-range.

When you perform an Audyssey calibration, there are two things that are set by default, which are subject to user control. One is the Audyssey curve which rolls-off the high frequencies a little bit. You may or may not prefer that. The second is Dynamic EQ. DEQ adds bass to every channel, and boosts the surround speakers relative to the front soundstage. The operation of both features are described in Section V of the Guide. This is a direct link to the subsections that explain those features.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...rences.html#VA

You may want to experiment with Audyssey Flat, which doesn't roll-off the high frequencies, and with DEQ off. If you turn off DEQ, you will probably need to add more subwoofer boost than you will need with it on. Just give yourself a little time now to get used to things and to experiment a little whenever the mood strikes you. There is no right or wrong way to operate your Audyssey-related features, or your other settings. There is only what sounds good to you.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #583 of 1611 Old 08-25-2018, 10:45 AM
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Thanks, Mike and Ray

I will make the basic changes that Mike suggested and "get used to it" for a bit, before I over experiment and lose track of the starting sounds. And reread "The Tome of Audio". LOL

Later,

Samsung UN82MU8000 4K UHD TV | Yamaha RX-A2070 9.2 AVR with Klipsch R-15M L&R and R-34C front stage speakers | Klipsch G-12 surrounds | 4 Atrium 5 front & rear Tops | Dual BIC RtR EV-1200 Subs | 5.1.4 Atmos system | Samsung UBD M9500 BD Player | FireTV 4K | Logitech Harmony 750 | TIVO BOLT OTA 849000 | AppleTV 4K | miniDSP 2 X 4 |
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post #584 of 1611 Old 08-25-2018, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck666 View Post
Data from Audyssey... 8 positions 2 ft square about MLP

FL 12.1 FT -3.0db 60Hz
FR 12.1 -3.0
C 11.7 -4.5 60
SW1 14.9 -11.5 LPF/LFE 120
SW2 14.9 -12.0
SL 6.3 0.0 110
SR 7.8 0.0
FHL 14.4 +1.0 90
FHR 14.4 +1.0
RHL 12.7 0.0 100
RHR 13.2 0.0

I see one subwoofer is a little hot. I noticed that is was a little higher than 1; but wanted to see the values...

Let the fun begin????

Generally, I think the chestiness is gone. Yeah. The center channel is quite low. Looking for spectrum spread? The option that lets you spead center with left and right fronts? MV seems to be needed higher 3-4 db?

Thanks gang..

Hello Chuck

Had to restart from fresh today, so I deleted what I started yesterday, since I could not finish.
Had to shut down the computer.

First, all the distance from your speakers look very good.
Your mains are at exactly the same distance, so are the level
Center is very close for distance, and level.
All your surrounds, also look good.

Sub wise, the distance is again the exact same to your MPL.
I suspect, you are like me, and spend lots of time with a measuring tape

As mike, I notice that your level seem on the low side.
I would try, to raise them a little on the sub trim level, by maybe 6-7dB, to be closer to -5 or -6dB.
Then, re-run Audyssey.

See how it sound for a while, as you mention.
Then try Mike suggestion's, about lowering the LFE and subs crossover to 90Hz.
This way, you have a good base, to know how it sound before, and after.


Playing, with this type of stuff, is all part of the fun.
Once, everything is perfect, you kind of get bored, and start thinking, "what else to do?".


Ray

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Hello Chuck

Had to restart from fresh today, so I deleted what I started yesterday, since I could not finish.

I suspect, you are like me, and spend lots of time with a measuring tape

As mike, I notice that your level seem on the low side.
I would try, to raise them a little on the sub trim level, by maybe 6-7dB, to be closer to -5 or -6dB.
Then, re-run Audyssey.

See how it sound for a while, as you mention.
Then try Mike suggestion's, about lowering the LFE and subs crossover to 90Hz.
This way, you have a good base, to know how it sound before, and after.

Playing, with this type of stuff, is all part of the fun.
Once, everything is perfect, you kind of get bored, and start thinking, "what else to do?".

Ray
Thanks, Ray. And there's a measuring tape a foot from this keyboard, LOL

After rethinking most of what I've done, I think I need to discuss my journey to here and what are my expectations are to Nirvana, LOL. Last Fall, I update by video to TV to 4K and the BD and Tivo and then Roku. This June, I got the ATMOS bug and began replacing my, NO laughing, 20+ year old Bose Accoussticmass 3 and 5 speakers. I was a 5.0 config with a Yamaha AVP.. In the Atmos forum, it was suggested that I put my Bose speakers in the bathroom and upgrade. Gave to daughter. I had upgraded my AVP to another Yammy by then. I purchased 2 matching Monoprice 12" subs, there entry level ones, not the THX. Then added Klipsch speakers as I found them on Amazon, on sale. At that point, I had a 5.2.2 system. Loved the new found bass. That config sounded really nice using the Dolby test clips; so, I deciced 5.2.4 had to be better... LOL.. By then, I had been thru 5 other AVP. 2 Yamahas, 1 Denon and 2 Onkyos. After the last upgrade to 5.2.4, I starting playing all my UHD and Atmos BD's. I noticed issues hearing dialogue. By this time I was a regular on this forum. From that work with you fellows, I decided to upgrade my AVP to the Denon 4400H. The Onkyo wasn't doing good bass management, we thought....And, the EQ program had issue; it was said..

That's the journey so far. Sorry for needing to include it.

Today, I feel that I have an expectation issue with what I can achieve. What do I expect? First, 80% of my listening from late September to early May is OTA major networks thru my antenna and Tivo Roamio (Dolby Digital+). I supplement that with FireTV streaming of Sling FS1, USA, History, etc. (Stereo and some 5.1) for another 15% and Streaming Amazon Music (Stereo) for the rest of viewing/listening time. Occasionally, I will buy a new BD with Atmos. Expectation=clearest dialogue possible from all sources. At 75, I have normal hearing losses and it drops off about 7.5-8 kHz. Soft consonants kill me. The Brits and accents kill me, sorry friends.. So, 99% of my listening didn't need an upgrade, except speakers. And, most of my listening doesn't include bass below 50Hz.

Now, what I want to clarify today is my conceptions. As we look at the Audyssey data, we have XO at low as 60Hz. I think that means we are using bass management and anything above 60 (forget the roll off/on slopes) goes to the speaker in question and the rest goes to the subwoofers? Correct? So, if mid range bass (what is it's range?) is causing a lot of the muddiness, that would be too low? For discussion, let's stay with the big 5 speakers (LCR) and the 2 subs. My $100 subs spec at 50-250 Hz, my LR spec at 62-20K, extended to 54Hz and my C 82-20K, extended to 74Hz. The LCR speakers spec XO at 1800Hz? So, it is as Mike suggested? Up the XOs? Probably don't use DEQ?

The other issue for me is that the source sound type seems to influence the muddiness? The best sound processor for me seems to be Dolby Surround or Stereo for what I listen to and watch? All others produce muddiness to various degrees?

Can I even get there???

Sorry for the length of post. Hope it helps newbeessssssss?

Chuck
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Thanks, Ray. And there's a measuring tape a foot from this keyboard, LOL



After rethinking most of what I've done, I think I need to discuss my journey to here and what are my expectations are to Nirvana, LOL. Last Fall, I update by video to TV to 4K and the BD and Tivo and then Roku. This June, I got the ATMOS bug and began replacing my, NO laughing, 20+ year old Bose Accoussticmass 3 and 5 speakers. I was a 5.0 config with a Yamaha AVP.. In the Atmos forum, it was suggested that I put my Bose speakers in the bathroom and upgrade. Gave to daughter. I had upgraded my AVP to another Yammy by then. I purchased 2 matching Monoprice 12" subs, there entry level ones, not the THX. Then added Klipsch speakers as I found them on Amazon, on sale. At that point, I had a 5.2.2 system. Loved the new found bass. That config sounded really nice using the Dolby test clips; so, I deciced 5.2.4 had to be better... LOL.. By then, I had been thru 5 other AVP. 2 Yamahas, 1 Denon and 2 Onkyos. After the last upgrade to 5.2.4, I starting playing all my UHD and Atmos BD's. I noticed issues hearing dialogue. By this time I was a regular on this forum. From that work with you fellows, I decided to upgrade my AVP to the Denon 4400H. The Onkyo was doing good bass management, we thought....And, the EQ program had issue; it was said..



That's the journey so far. Sorry for needing to include it.



Today, I feel that I have an expectation issue with what I can achieve. What do I expect? First, 80% of my listening from late September to early May is OTA major networks thru my antenna and Tivo Roamio (5.1Dolby). I supplement that with FireTV streaming of Sling FS1, USA, History, etc. (Stereo and some 5.1) for another 15% and Streaming Amazon Music (Stereo) for the rest of viewing/listening time. Occasionally, I will buy a new BD with Atmos. Expectation=clearest dialogue possible from all sources. At 75, I have normal hearing losses and it drops off about 7.5-8 kHz. Soft consonants kill me. The Brits and accents kill me, sorry friends.. So, 99% of my listening didn't need an upgrade, except speakers. And, most of my listening doesn't include bass below 50Hz.



Now, what I want to clarify today is my conceptions. As we look at the Audyssey data, we have XO at low as 60Hz. I think that means we are using bass management and anything above 60 (forget the roll off/on slopes) goes to the speaker in question and the rest goes to the subwoofers? Correct? So, if mid range bass (what is it's range?) is causing a lot of the muddiness, that would be too low? For discussion, let's stay with the big 5 speakers (LCR) and the 2 subs. My $100 subs spec at 50-250 Hz, my LR spec at 62-20K, extended to 54Hz and my C 82-20K, extended to 74Hz. The LCR speakers spec XO at 1800Hz? So, it is as Mike suggested? Up the XOs? Probably don't use DEQ?



The other issue for me is that the source sound type seems to influence the muddiness? The best sound processor for me seems to be Dolby Surround or Stereo for what I listen to and watch? All others produce muddiness to various degrees?



Can I even get there???



Sorry for the length of post. Hope it helps newbeessssssss?



Chuck


Try crossover at 100hz, maybe 80 on LR. The ‘LRC speaker spec 1800hz’ is the speakers internal crossover between the bass/midrange woofer(s) and the tweeter and is something you can ignore.


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Originally Posted by Chuck666 View Post
Thanks, Ray. And there's a measuring tape a foot from this keyboard, LOL

After rethinking most of what I've done, I think I need to discuss my journey to here and what are my expectations are to Nirvana, LOL. Last Fall, I update by video to TV to 4K and the BD and Tivo and then Roku. This June, I got the ATMOS bug and began replacing my, NO laughing, 20+ year old Bose Accoussticmass 3 and 5 speakers. I was a 5.0 config with a Yamaha AVP.. In the Atmos forum, it was suggested that I put my Bose speakers in the bathroom and upgrade. Gave to daughter. I had upgraded my AVP to another Yammy by then. I purchased 2 matching Monoprice 12" subs, there entry level ones, not the THX. Then added Klipsch speakers as I found them on Amazon, on sale. At that point, I had a 5.2.2 system. Loved the new found bass. That config sounded really nice using the Dolby test clips; so, I deciced 5.2.4 had to be better... LOL.. By then, I had been thru 5 other AVP. 2 Yamahas, 1 Denon and 2 Onkyos. After the last upgrade to 5.2.4, I starting playing all my UHD and Atmos BD's. I noticed issues hearing dialogue. By this time I was a regular on this forum. From that work with you fellows, I decided to upgrade my AVP to the Denon 4400H. The Onkyo wasn't doing good bass management, we thought....And, the EQ program had issue; it was said..

That's the journey so far. Sorry for needing to include it.

Today, I feel that I have an expectation issue with what I can achieve. What do I expect? First, 80% of my listening from late September to early May is OTA major networks thru my antenna and Tivo Roamio (5.1Dolby). I supplement that with FireTV streaming of Sling FS1, USA, History, etc. (Stereo and some 5.1) for another 15% and Streaming Amazon Music (Stereo) for the rest of viewing/listening time. Occasionally, I will buy a new BD with Atmos. Expectation=clearest dialogue possible from all sources. At 75, I have normal hearing losses and it drops off about 7.5-8 kHz. Soft consonants kill me. The Brits and accents kill me, sorry friends.. So, 99% of my listening didn't need an upgrade, except speakers. And, most of my listening doesn't include bass below 50Hz.

Now, what I want to clarify today is my conceptions. As we look at the Audyssey data, we have XO at low as 60Hz. I think that means we are using bass management and anything above 60 (forget the roll off/on slopes) goes to the speaker in question and the rest goes to the subwoofers? Correct? So, if mid range bass (what is it's range?) is causing a lot of the muddiness, that would be too low? For discussion, let's stay with the big 5 speakers (LCR) and the 2 subs. My $100 subs spec at 50-250 Hz, my LR spec at 62-20K, extended to 54Hz and my C 82-20K, extended to 74Hz. The LCR speakers spec XO at 1800Hz? So, it is as Mike suggested? Up the XOs? Probably don't use DEQ?

The other issue for me is that the source sound type seems to influence the muddiness? The best sound processor for me seems to be Dolby Surround or Stereo for what I listen to and watch? All others produce muddiness to various degrees?

Can I even get there???

Sorry for the length of post. Hope it helps newbeessssssss?

Chuck

Hi Chuck,

The long post actually helps, in my opinion, because it clarifies both your recent experience and your expectations. I'm going to give you a fairly lengthy reply in return, and I will shoot straight with you. I hope that's okay.

First, you haven't really been at this very long. You said that you replaced your 20-year old speakers in June, and you just got your new AVR on Friday. The first thing that I think you need is some patience to clarify your own goals a little better, and then some time and patience to execute them properly. This is something you said that may be important: "After the last upgrade to 5.2.4, I starting playing all my UHD and Atmos BD's. I noticed issues hearing dialogue."

Apparently adding more sound sources caused some issues with hearing clear dialogue. If we think about it, that may not be too surprising, if you were already right on the edge with some hearing loss anyway. So, you may need to decide what your real goal is here: clear dialogue, or overhead speakers? You could always try turning off your overhead speakers, in the Speaker Configuration menu, to see if that helps the dialogue.

The second observation I would make is that in your desire to go from zero to sixty in 6 seconds, you have emphasized having a lot of speakers, instead of emphasizing having adequate speakers. Most of us have had to build our HT systems on a budget, and we have built them over time. I think that most experienced HT owners would tell you that it's better, from a sound quality standpoint, to have a good 5.1 system than it is to have a meh 5.1.4 system. (The .1 channel always counts as 1 regardless of the number of subwoofers.)

In fact, I would emphasize the front soundstage even more than the surround speakers, so I would say that a good 3.1 system is the best starting point. The front three speakers is really where the great majority of the important content comes from.

My impression when you posted pictures of your room was that your front three speakers were under-powered for your listening distance. That wouldn't be so obvious with the Left Front and Right Front speakers. But, it could be very noticeable with dialogue for the center channel. Your surround speakers may add to the problem by playing distracting ambient content.

And, your subwoofers could add to the problem because that CC needs a crossover of at least 80Hz or 90Hz, in my opinion. That's to keep the speaker from distorting, which would also interfere with dialogue clarity, even if the distortion were not extremely noticeable by itself. But, as you go up with the crossover, that allows more bass to leak into the sound, making male voices sound chestier and harder to hear clearly. As you noted, accents don't help either.

I don't think that your expectations are unreasonable or unattainable, but you need to take some time to figure things out and to experiment. You need to experiment with the Audyssey target curve and with Audyssey Flat. Which setting improves the quality of the sound for you? No one but you can answer that question. You need to experiment with DEQ on, and DEQ off. Which sounds better to you? You're the only one who counts with that question, too.

You need to experiment with different crossovers for your CC. And make the changes dramatic, so that you can hear real trends in the sound. Try a 60Hz crossover, and then go straight to a 100Hz crossover. You can try the in-between increments once you get a general idea of which direction is better--going up, or going down, from the usual recommendation of 80Hz. Take your time, and approach each setting individually so you will understand how it changes things. Otherwise, you won't really learn what you like.

It's your audio system, and your goals and priorities can be whatever you want them to be. If it were my audio system, I would upgrade my center channel first, and my two front speakers second, and I wouldn't care quite as much about the other channels until I got the front soundstage and the dialogue where I wanted them. Along the way, I would take the time to discover for myself what settings work best for my components, in my room, and for my preferences. But, all of that will take a bit of time and patience. I hope this helps!

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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^^^
I think Mike is right. Regardless of what your budget might be (though you indicated you waited for sales), focus on that forward area where most of the audio info comes from. Remember that many audio purists feel that the best audio (music) comes from a pair of stereo speakers as opposed to surround audio. In you case, the Center channel is a critical add, so you get to Mike's 3.1. (And Mike, though I do describe my setup as 7.2.4, I apperciate you comment that it is actually .1 -- there is only one LFE stream coming in regardless of how many subs are connected. My Yamaha allow configuring the subs as L/R or F/B, but it is still the 1 LFE stream. And I use the Both setting anyway. :<)

My hearing is also "less than perfect" -- too much early abuse and chasing after you, Chuck, in age. So much so, I use subtitles to be sure I catch all the dialogue. In my system, the dialogue coming through is clean and clear -- subtitles are a backup for my hearing.

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Thanks Lee, Mike and Rich et all.

I love the succinct advise. At my age, pussy footing is a waste.

The center channel speaker is interesting to me and my journey. Remember, I started with a dual Bose 4"cube as my center channel and Closed Caption my BEST friend. LOL

I searched the internet and AVS forum as late as yesterday to see what others were doing, because Mike's comment 3 days ago threw me. The Klipsch 25C is 7 x 7 x 19 inches in size with two woofers and one tweeter. That's by volume 7 times bigger than I had. I never found any forum that addressed cc and the majority of the Web recommendations were Klipschs in 3 different models. Their speakers all got 4 and 5 star ratings. So, today, I would again NOT know what else to buy in that general price range. If distance to listener is a parameter, I never uncovered that? That is that part of the journey. Not trying to be defensive; just factual.

So, please suggest something for replacement.

What did change and I didn't realize it until this weekend; that audio codecs that I could now use were different and changed the center channel sound. DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Previous to this update, I always had Closed Caption ON. Since I live alone (widower), that was not an issue. When others come over, it is... So, I was trying to improve that, also.

What I learned today listening was that media without any Bass in it was NOT an issue. Regular FM radio and Amazon Prime music sound good. But, when I got to Tivo OTA broadcasts which had DD+ as a source and LFE .1 content, I had to turn up the center 3-4 dbs and turnoff DEQ. Then it was OK with only tell tail sub noises. MV at -10 to -15.

This is with the original settings noted in the above Audyssey data and only the changes just noted. Next, will be an Atmos BD. Then, I can start doing XO changes. I'm guessing that I may have to change parameters when I watch a slam bang bada boo, bada bing movie. LOL.

More later.

Samsung UN82MU8000 4K UHD TV | Yamaha RX-A2070 9.2 AVR with Klipsch R-15M L&R and R-34C front stage speakers | Klipsch G-12 surrounds | 4 Atrium 5 front & rear Tops | Dual BIC RtR EV-1200 Subs | 5.1.4 Atmos system | Samsung UBD M9500 BD Player | FireTV 4K | Logitech Harmony 750 | TIVO BOLT OTA 849000 | AppleTV 4K | miniDSP 2 X 4 |
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Thanks Lee, Mike and Rich et all.

I love the succinct advise. At my age, pussy footing is a waste.

The center channel speaker is interesting to me and my journey. Remember, I started with a dual Bose 4"cube as my center channel and Closed Caption my BEST friend. LOL

I searched the internet and AVS forum as late as yesterday to see what others were doing, because Mike's comment 3 days ago threw me. The Klipsch 25C is 7 x 7 x 19 inches in size with two woofers and one tweeter. That's by volume 7 times bigger than I had. I never found any forum that addressed cc and the majority of the Web recommendations were Klipschs in 3 different models. Their speakers all got 4 and 5 star ratings. So, today, I would again NOT know what else to buy in that general price range. If distance to listener is a parameter, I never uncovered that? That is that part of the journey. Not trying to be defensive; just factual.

So, please suggest something for replacement.

What did change and I didn't realize it until this weekend; that audio codecs that I could now use were different and changed the center channel sound. DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Previous to this update, I always had Closed Caption ON. Since I live alone (widower), that was not an issue. When others come over, it is... So, I was trying to improve that, also.

What I learned today listening was that media without any Bass in it was NOT an issue. Regular FM radio and Amazon Prime music sound good. But, when I got to Tivo OTA broadcasts which had DD+ as a source and LFE .1 content, I had to turn up the center 3-4 dbs and turnoff DEQ. Then it was OK with only tell tail sub noises. MV at -10 to -15.

This is with the original settings noted in the above Audyssey data and only the changes just noted. Next, will be an Atmos BD. Then, I can start doing XO changes. I'm guessing that I may have to change parameters when I watch a slam bang bada boo, bada bing movie. LOL.

More later.

Hi Chuck,

You are very welcome, and I'm glad that you didn't mind my direct advice. I think that the distance from the center channel especially matters. That's partly because of the normal 3db loss in SPL per doubling of distance (indoors), and partly because mid-range and high frequencies, which we need to hear in order to distinguish consonants clearly, diffuse/disperse as we move further away from the source. Hearing someone speak loudly from clear across the room is not the same thing as hearing someone speak more softly from 5' or 6' away.

I don't want to make too many suggestions all at once, but if you are game, here is something you could try. You might need to shift your sofa closer to the front of the room by a foot or two in order to do it, but I think it would help if you could move your listening chairs forward by a couple of feet. Maybe instead of getting a more powerful CC right now, we could move you a little closer to the one you have. I know that involves some physical effort, so this is just one of those 'if you want to try it' things. I think it would help a little. If you do it, you will need to run Audyssey again.

The other thing that I would like to see you try is completely painless. Try increasing the distance setting on your CC by about 3'. (So, set it manually to about 14.5' or 15'.) That will speed up the sound of the CC by about 3ms, and since we hear first arriving sounds as a little louder than later arriving sounds, it may help you to hear dialogue relative to the ambient sounds from your other channels. I am not surprised that you enjoy LFE content more with DEQ off. DEQ is adding bass to all of the channels, including the CC, and it is boosting the volume of the surrounds. That is a double whammy for dialogue intelligibility.

Keep reporting on your progress!

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #591 of 1611 Old 08-26-2018, 04:18 PM
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Hi Chuck,

You are very welcome, and I'm glad that you didn't mind my direct advice. I think that the distance from the center channel especially matters. That's partly because of the normal 3db loss in SPL per doubling of distance (indoors), and partly because mid-range and high frequencies, which we need to hear in order to distinguish consonants clearly, diffuse/disperse as we move further away from the source. Hearing someone speak loudly from clear across the room is not the same thing as hearing someone speak more softly from 5' or 6' away.

I don't want to make too many suggestions all at once, but if you are game, here is something you could try. You might need to shift your sofa closer to the front of the room by a foot or two in order to do it, but I think it would help if you could move your listening chairs forward by a couple of feet. Maybe instead of getting a more powerful CC right now, we could move you a little closer to the one you have. I know that involves some physical effort, so this is just one of those 'if you want to try it' things. I think it would help a little. If you do it, you will need to run Audyssey again.

The other thing that I would like to see you try is completely painless. Try increasing the distance setting on your CC by about 3'. (So, set it manually to about 14.5' or 15'.) That will speed up the sound of the CC by about 3ms, and since we hear first arriving sounds as a little louder than later arriving sounds, it may help you to hear dialogue relative to the ambient sounds from your other channels. I am not surprised that you enjoy LFE content more with DEQ off. DEQ is adding bass to all of the channels, including the CC, and it is boosting the volume of the surrounds. That is a double whammy for dialogue intelligibility.

Keep reporting on your progress!

Regards,
Mike
I like your new ideas. Moving furniture is nothing. And, actually the couch is not in the way of either chair physically. IT will just look funny for the test.
What does a more powerful speaker mean? What parameter? Klipsch are some of the easier speakers to drive; as I understand it?

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A Klipsch center like that is known to be bright, and should be good for dialog. It is probably some sort of setup issue. One thing about your new receiver is that it is easy to bump up and down the center volume by hitting option>channel adjust.
If you decide to try a new center speaker, the RP-450c is available at a massive discount from authorized dealers on ebay. I'll pm you the links, since you aren't allowed to put ebay links here.
It is huge, so it might not fit in your spot.
I would definitely explore setup issues first, though. You might even try unplugging the receiver for at least 10 minutes(soft reset) as that will sometimes fix issues.
https://www.klipsch.com/products/ref...SAAEgKiPPD_BwE

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post #593 of 1611 Old 08-26-2018, 04:29 PM
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Chuck666,

Rest assured you are getting professional grade advice/consult here from Mike and Darth. Getting this stuff right is overly complicated, to the point of making a person wonder if the Industry really wants customers? But I digress.

The only thing I could possibly add to the advice previously provided, is to take your time. Slow down and enjoy the journey. Relish the incremental improvements in the Sound and your knowledge in these things. You are asking great questions. Knowing what you don't know, is half of the problem with regard to gettin this Home Theatre stuff right.

Great advice and guidance Gentlemen. I am starting to feel like an "Mthomas47" Groupie!!!

Otherwise, carry on smartly Sir!
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post #594 of 1611 Old 08-26-2018, 05:09 PM - Thread Starter
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I like your new ideas. Moving furniture is nothing. And, actually the couch is not in the way of either chair physically. IT will just look funny for the test.
What does a more powerful speaker mean? What parameter? Klipsch are some of the easier speakers to drive; as I understand it?

Excellent! I think that moving closer will help, and adding some distance to your Audyssey setting, after recalibrating, should also help. I agree with drh3b that the Klipsch speakers are known for being bright. And, from what I have seen, the mid-range horn and the tweeter stay the same in all of the models. So, I would be looking for a CC that rolls-off a little lower in frequency. That will give you greater crossover flexibility and may make it easier to keep sub boosts out of your speaker.

The one that drh3b linked is very large. But, Klipsch introduces new models every year, and they have one coming out sometime in 2018 (according to their website) that has dual 6.5" woofers and the same 58Hz extension as the really large one that was linked. But, I recall it as being in a more compact cabinet. I would put the new CC discussion on hold for a while, though, until we find out how much better mileage you can get out of your existing CC, from the changes we have discussed.
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post #595 of 1611 Old 08-26-2018, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
A Klipsch center like that is known to be bright, and should be good for dialog. It is probably some sort of setup issue. One thing about your new receiver is that it is easy to bump up and down the center volume by hitting option>channel adjust.
If you decide to try a new center speaker, the RP-450c is available at a massive discount from authorized dealers on ebay. I'll pm you the links, since you aren't allowed to put ebay links here.
It is huge, so it might not fit in your spot.
I would definitely explore setup issues first, though. You might even try unplugging the receiver for at least 10 minutes(soft reset) as that will sometimes fix issues.
https://www.klipsch.com/products/ref...SAAEgKiPPD_BwE
Don't need any links. avid shopper. Thank you. I see you use a 450C. What did you have before? A different Klipsch? R-42?

But up the MV or the CC volume does solve the mushiness; it just makes louder mush. LOL
Thanks, Chuck

Samsung UN82MU8000 4K UHD TV | Yamaha RX-A2070 9.2 AVR with Klipsch R-15M L&R and R-34C front stage speakers | Klipsch G-12 surrounds | 4 Atrium 5 front & rear Tops | Dual BIC RtR EV-1200 Subs | 5.1.4 Atmos system | Samsung UBD M9500 BD Player | FireTV 4K | Logitech Harmony 750 | TIVO BOLT OTA 849000 | AppleTV 4K | miniDSP 2 X 4 |
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post #596 of 1611 Old 08-26-2018, 05:19 PM
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Hi Chuck,
My viewing and listening habits are similar to yours.We watch quite a lot of TV with an OTA Roamio.We also stream TV shows, some movies and music with Amazon,Netflix,Pandora with an Nvidia Shield.

I also have less than perfect hearing and find with OTA broadcasts and streaming I need to crank up the center channel gain.This is with a center channel that has two 8" woofers and sensitivity rating of 98.5.Don't be afraid to do that.
As I type this,I'm watching the Little League World Series game on ABC, recorded earlier today at -35.0 on my Denon 3300 and the dialog to me sounds great.Other networks or streaming shows I have to adjust the volume into the 20's .With British shows and the like we turn subtitles on.

As Mike and others have said and I agree completely about getting the best possible front stage you can(especially the center channel).Then concentrate on the surrounds and Atmos if you wish.

Play around with crossover settings and Dynamic EQ.

I'm in the process of building a better front stage for more clairity. Subs,in my opinion are very important too.I use mine as more to fill the sound more than anything.
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post #597 of 1611 Old 08-26-2018, 05:32 PM
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Thanks, Mark. Very helpful. Love the Brit show comment... LOL

How far are you from your center channel? What brand and model? Thanks.


Chuck

Samsung UN82MU8000 4K UHD TV | Yamaha RX-A2070 9.2 AVR with Klipsch R-15M L&R and R-34C front stage speakers | Klipsch G-12 surrounds | 4 Atrium 5 front & rear Tops | Dual BIC RtR EV-1200 Subs | 5.1.4 Atmos system | Samsung UBD M9500 BD Player | FireTV 4K | Logitech Harmony 750 | TIVO BOLT OTA 849000 | AppleTV 4K | miniDSP 2 X 4 |
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post #598 of 1611 Old 08-26-2018, 05:34 PM
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Excellent! I think that moving closer will help, and adding some distance to your Audyssey setting, after recalibrating, should also help. I agree with drh3b that the Klipsch speakers are known for being bright. And, from what I have seen, the mid-range horn and the tweeter stay the same in all of the models. So, I would be looking for a CC that rolls-off a little lower in frequency. That will give you greater crossover flexibility and may make it easier to keep sub boosts out of your speaker.

The one that drh3b linked is very large. But, Klipsch introduces new models every year, and they have one coming out sometime in 2018 (according to their website) that has dual 6.5" woofers and the same 58Hz extension as the really large one that was linked. But, I recall it as being in a more compact cabinet. I would put the new CC discussion on hold for a while, though, until we find out how much better mileage you can get out of your existing CC, from the changes we have discussed.
Hmm, bastards. I really wanted an RP version of the RC- 62 II( dual 6 1/2 woofers), not the 450c, but they don't make one. I bitched about it on the Klipsch thread, so I'm taking full credit for them re introducing it. Might have to try it.

Definitely agree on trying setup issues. While any R series Klipsch isn't their best, it should be able to put out clear vocals.

I wonder if it sounds better with Audyssey off? That definitely would indicate a bad calibration.
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post #599 of 1611 Old 08-26-2018, 05:41 PM
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Don't need any links. avid shopper. Thank you. I see you use a 450C. What did you have before? A different Klipsch? R-42?

But up the MV or the CC volume does solve the mushiness; it just makes louder mush. LOL
Thanks, Chuck
That's got to be a setup issue, unless there is a problem with your center speaker. Is this with Audyssey on? If so, try turning Audyssey off, and see if it's clearer. That would indicate a bad calibration. If it's mushy, it's possible the tweeter has been blown at some point.
I had the previous generation of Klipsch Center with dual woofers, the RC 62 II, it was very good, but I went with my current one when I switched to RP series, and before that, a mid level Polk I was never super happy with, although I liked the matching bookshelves.

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post #600 of 1611 Old 08-26-2018, 06:13 PM
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Thanks, Mark. Very helpful. Love the Brit show comment... LOL

How far are you from your center channel? What brand and model? Thanks.


Chuck
Hi Chuck,
The British shows are interesting and tough for us to understand at times(Peaky Blinders is a great example,I need to read it to try to understand what I thought I heard.Then have to look up words on the internet.Great show by the way!)

I sit aprox. 10 feet away.
I have a DIY center channel(DIY Soundgroup Fusion 8).It's a great center if you're into DIY.Even with this center I go into channel level adjust and bump up the center channel level pretty high.You're getting great advise from Mike and others.I just changed my center channel distance(Thanks Mike!)

Of course in this hobby I'm looking for something a little better,so I'm building a new horizontal center with matching left and right speakers.
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