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post #601 of 1605 Old 08-27-2018, 11:40 AM
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Hey, Mike and all. MIke, I once again want to thank you for producing this Guide with all the incredibly useful info. I've finally gotten through reading it and now have a true appreciation also for the recent hyperlink upgrades you added.

I'll get address my room, setup and equipment shortly, but I had one specific question of interest from your ported vs sealed section. You say not to mix ported and sealed subs and, "Automated room EQ may not be able to help at all when ported and sealed subs are mixed together in a room.", but I can't see the rationale for "why?". One option I've kept open for when I get through tweaking my setup has been to potentially add a 15" sub, and after reading that far in the Guide, I had thought that a ported sub would be best. But my other subs are sealed, so that comment throws me. By the time I'm through trying to maximize my bass to my liking, I may no long need or want this additional sub, but I still interested in why.
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post #602 of 1605 Old 08-27-2018, 03:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey, Mike and all. MIke, I once again want to thank you for producing this Guide with all the incredibly useful info. I've finally gotten through reading it and now have a true appreciation also for the recent hyperlink upgrades you added.

I'll get address my room, setup and equipment shortly, but I had one specific question of interest from your ported vs sealed section. You say not to mix ported and sealed subs and, "Automated room EQ may not be able to help at all when ported and sealed subs are mixed together in a room.", but I can't see the rationale for "why?". One option I've kept open for when I get through tweaking my setup has been to potentially add a 15" sub, and after reading that far in the Guide, I had thought that a ported sub would be best. But my other subs are sealed, so that comment throws me. By the time I'm through trying to maximize my bass to my liking, I may no long need or want this additional sub, but I still interested in why.

Hi Rich,

You are very welcome, and I appreciate your nice comment!

Unfortunately, the question of mixing ported and sealed subs together in a room is a very complicated one. I don't know that I can do justice to the issue, but I will give it a shot. When we put a single subwoofer in a room, the subwoofer reacts in unpredictable ways with the room, causing peaks at some frequencies and dips at others. When we put two identical subwoofers in a room, the subwoofers react with both the room, and with each other, in unpredictable ways, causing peaks and dips at random frequencies. Some forms of room EQ (including some versions of YPAO) help with bass frequencies, by smoothing-out some of those peaks and dips to create a more uniform bass sound.

When we put two subwoofers which are not identical, and which have very different frequency responses--with more and less SPL at different frequencies--we create an additional level of unpredictability. Automated room corrected is less helpful, in this case, because the subwoofers will roll-off at different frequencies, and the room correction is designed to stop EQing as the combined SPL of the subwoofers rolls-off by 3db. So, the ported subwoofer may not receive any EQ at all below about 40Hz, where it may still be playing quite strongly, because the sealed subwoofer may have already lost SPL at that point.

Putting sealed and ported subwoofers together in a room is a bit of a crap shoot. The combined bass may sound just fine, and it may even measure well with REW. But, it is more likely that there will be peaks at some frequencies and dips at others. And, I believe that cancellation can be especially likely near the ported subs tuning point, where room EQ will no longer be helping. I won't promise that what I have just said is absolutely accurate, but I think I have captured the essence of it.

Whenever we place two subwoofers with unlike SPL output together in a room, we can make-up for some of the disparity in output with placement--placing the weaker sub right behind a listening position, for instance. But, if the actual frequency responses of the subs are very different, then good placement may not help to resolve potential issues. The typical recommendation is not to mix sealed and ported subs, unless we have something like REW with which to measure the frequency response, and unless we have some means to EQ the subs individually. One way to do that would be via their individual DSP, which can be fairly sophisticated with some subwoofers. Another way would be with something like a miniDSP.

I wouldn't want to discourage an experienced HT owner from trying to combine sealed and ported subs, but life is simpler if we stay with either identical, or at least pretty similar, subs. Personally, if I really wanted ported subs (which I do) I would just go with an all-ported subwoofer system. Ditto for sealed subs. Again, some people do mix sealed and ported subwoofers with good success. But, they typically have some way to measure, and to independently adjust the frequency responses of the subs, when they do it.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #603 of 1605 Old 08-27-2018, 03:41 PM
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I'm not sure if I missed something regarding phase settings when calibrating dual subs in an HT system?

My main HT sub forever has been a Mirage BPS-400 (dual opposed, sealed 12" w/ 400 Watts of power). It has no phase settings at all on the plate amp.

Tomorrow, I'll be integrating a Martin Logan Dynamo 1500X into the system (single, sealed 15" w/ 650 Watts of power). I think the subs are a fairly good match for one another, both being sealed and having relatively similar capabilities. The ML does have variable phase settings and also PBK (perfect bass kit) compatibility, which I will utililze.

I'm basically following the Two Sub Midwall Placement as closely as I can (side walls of the room), although my room isn't quite a perfect rectangle, and has one opening into the room beside the front right speaker. The subs will be slightly closer to the front of the room than the back as that's pretty much the only place they can go. They will be directly across from each other.

Do I need to worry about setting the phase on the ML before I re-run the calibration? I know I need to level match the subs, and I think I'll run PBK as well on the ML (should I use the PBK EQ at all?) before I run Audyssey on my Denon AVR-X3200 receiver.

I do have 2 more subs in the system as well (2x Velodyne SPL-800R, 8" sealed, 1000Watts). My system is a little complicated (hybrid 2 channel & HT system with separate signal paths for HT and 2 channel). I use the Velodynes as stereo subs for 2 channel music, but in the HT system, the front L SPL-800 sub ends up being part of the front L channel and the front R sub is part of the front R channel. I usually cross the front L/R channels over to the LFE/Summed sub(s) at 40 or 60Hz.

Does that sound about right? Anything I should do differently?

Main System: Vizio P70 4K TV. Selah Vigore Speakers. KEF Q100 Rear L/R, Mirage BPS 400 LFE Sub. (2x)Rythmik FM8 Subs. Denon AVR-X4500H Receiver. Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 Integrated (2 channel). Oppo BDP-103. Zappiti Mini 4K HDR. GIK 242 Panels, Tri Traps, Monster Bass Trap. Various Vicoustic Desktop: Dynaudio BM6A mkII. Paradigm SUB10 w/ PBK. Cambridge DACMagic+ DAC. GIK 242 Panels, Monster Bass Trap Master Bedroom: Vizio M55 4K HDR. BG Radia In-Wall/Ceiling Speakers (5.2.2). NAD T758v3 Receiver
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post #604 of 1605 Old 08-27-2018, 03:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nick V View Post
I'm not sure if I missed something regarding phase settings when calibrating dual subs in an HT system?

My main HT sub forever has been a Mirage BPS-400 (dual opposed, sealed 12" w/ 400 Watts of power). It has no phase settings at all on the plate amp.

Tomorrow, I'll be integrating a Martin Logan Dynamo 1500X into the system (single, sealed 15" w/ 650 Watts of power). I think the subs are a fairly good match for one another, both being sealed and having relatively similar capabilities. The ML does have variable phase settings and also PBK (perfect bass kit) compatibility, which I will utililze.

I'm basically following the Two Sub Midwall Placement as closely as I can (side walls of the room), although my room isn't quite a perfect rectangle, and has one opening into the room beside the front right speaker. The subs will be slightly closer to the front of the room than the back as that's pretty much the only place they can go. They will be directly across from each other.

Do I need to worry about setting the phase on the ML before I re-run the calibration? I know I need to level match the subs, and I think I'll run PBK as well on the ML (should I use the PBK EQ at all?) before I run Audyssey on my Denon AVR-X3200 receiver.

I do have 2 more subs in the system as well (2x Velodyne SPL-800R, 8" sealed, 1000Watts). My system is a little complicated (hybrid 2 channel & HT system with separate signal paths for HT and 2 channel). I use the Velodynes as stereo subs for 2 channel music, but in the HT system, the front L SPL-800 sub ends up being part of the front L channel and the front R sub is part of the front R channel. I usually cross the front L/R channels over to the LFE/Summed sub(s) at 40 or 60Hz.

Does that sound about right? Anything I should do differently?

Wow, you may want to start a separate thread for this one, Nick!

I think as you add the new subwoofer mid-wall, you will just need to experiment to find out how things sound. I would expect subs on opposing walls to have some cancellation, but personally, I would run Audyssey first, before adjusting anything. Then, depending on how things sound (or measure, if you have REW) I would try adjusting the phase on the Martin Logan.

I am not familiar with ML's PBK, although I have heard of it. My first instinct again, would be to let Audyssey do what it can and then use PBK to fine tune the result. But, I have heard of instances where changing phase or using a sub's internal DSP prior to running room EQ can be helpful, so some trial-and-error experimentation is in order here.

I hope this helps!

Regards,
Mike


Edit: I don't want this statement to be a recurring theme on the thread, as I think that many people can achieve results that are perfectly satisfactory to them by careful subwoofer placement. And room EQ can help a lot. But, I really do think that the more complicated someone's system is, the more he needs to be able to actually measure the frequency response, and not simply rely on his hearing to make phase and/or DSP adjustments.
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 08-27-2018 at 04:04 PM.
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post #605 of 1605 Old 08-27-2018, 05:26 PM
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Hi Rich,

You are very welcome, and I appreciate your nice comment!

Unfortunately, the question of mixing ported and sealed subs together in a room is a very complicated one. I don't know that I can do justice to the issue, but I will give it a shot. When we put a single subwoofer in a room, the subwoofer reacts in unpredictable ways with the room, causing peaks at some frequencies and dips at others. When we put two identical subwoofers in a room, the subwoofers react with both the room, and with each other, in unpredictable ways, causing peaks and dips at random frequencies. Some forms of room EQ (including some versions of YPAO) help with bass frequencies, by smoothing-out some of those peaks and dips to create a more uniform bass sound.

When we put two subwoofers which are not identical, and which have very different frequency responses--with more and less SPL at different frequencies--we create an additional level of unpredictability. Automated room corrected is less helpful, in this case, because the subwoofers will roll-off at different frequencies, and the room correction is designed to stop EQing as the combined SPL of the subwoofers rolls-off by 3db. So, the ported subwoofer may not receive any EQ at all below about 40Hz, where it may still be playing quite strongly, because the sealed subwoofer may have already lost SPL at that point.

Putting sealed and ported subwoofers together in a room is a bit of a crap shoot. The combined bass may sound just fine, and it may even measure well with REW. But, it is more likely that there will be peaks at some frequencies and dips at others. And, I believe that cancellation can be especially likely near the ported subs tuning point, where room EQ will no longer be helping. I won't promise that what I have just said is absolutely accurate, but I think I have captured the essence of it.

Whenever we place two subwoofers with unlike SPL output together in a room, we can make-up for some of the disparity in output with placement--placing the weaker sub right behind a listening position, for instance. But, if the actual frequency responses of the subs are very different, then good placement may not help to resolve potential issues. The typical recommendation is not to mix sealed and ported subs, unless we have something like REW with which to measure the frequency response, and unless we have some means to EQ the subs individually. One way to do that would be via their individual DSP, which can be fairly sophisticated with some subwoofers. Another way would be with something like a miniDSP.

I wouldn't want to discourage an experienced HT owner from trying to combine sealed and ported subs, but life is simpler if we stay with either identical, or at least pretty similar, subs. Personally, if I really wanted ported subs (which I do) I would just go with an all-ported subwoofer system. Ditto for sealed subs. Again, some people do mix sealed and ported subwoofers with good success. But, they typically have some way to measure, and to independently adjust the frequency responses of the subs, when they do it.

Regards,
Mike
Wow! Yes, quite complicated, but I think you provided an excellent, understandable answer. Thanks much. Personally, I'd encourage you to add all that into the Guide -- after all, it took a lot to get that out coherently. Maybe as one of those bracketed items for optional reading if interested.
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post #606 of 1605 Old 08-27-2018, 06:04 PM
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Ok, I've been trying to decide how to do this, but Mike's @mthomas47 response to @Nick V about possibly starting his own thread has decided me. My signature includes my equipment and a link to my own HT thread which I created to discuss things and to help with my upgrade to immersive sound. Description and pics are included in the first 6 posts. I think it's best to continue with my question for upgrading my HT bass there and use pointers here as appropriate. Especially as @PioManiac as already started me down the road to perdition...

For those who use smartphones and can't see sigs, this is the link to the post that starts my bass/subwoofer quest: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-ge...l#post56674222

For completeness in this post, my setup:
Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
Base: Mirage OM-6 (FLR), MC-si (C), OM-R2 (SLR), FRx-nine (BLR)
Presence: ELAC A4s (FP), RSL C34Es (RP); 2 aci Titan subs; RP amp: AudioSource AMP100VS

Description of my sub setup is in the latest post of that thread #107 .

Atmos/DTS:X HT in Vaulted Room -- LG OLED Settings Options
Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
Base: Mirage OM-6 (FLR), MC-si (C), OM-R2 (SLR), FRx-nine (BLR)
Presence: ELAC A4s (FP), RSL C34Es (RP); 2 aci Titan subs; RP amp: AudioSource AMP100VS
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post #607 of 1605 Old 08-27-2018, 06:10 PM
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Wow, you may want to start a separate thread for this one, Nick!

I think as you add the new subwoofer mid-wall, you will just need to experiment to find out how things sound. I would expect subs on opposing walls to have some cancellation...

Regards,
Mike


Edit: I don't want this statement to be a recurring theme on the thread, as I think that many people can achieve results that are perfectly satisfactory to them by careful subwoofer placement. And room EQ can help a lot. But, I really do think that the more complicated someone's system is, the more he needs to be able to actually measure the frequency response, and not simply rely on his hearing to make phase and/or DSP adjustments.
Thanks.

The two sub mid-wall placement is actually what's recommended in Dr. Floyd Toole's book "Sound Reproduction". From an audioholics article "If you are running two subs, the ideal locations for them in a rectangular room are on opposing vertical or horizontal midwalls. Two subs configured in such a method work nearly as good as four subs configured via our 4 Corner Placement recommendation."



Having said that, it's based on an exactly rectangular room, which mine is not quite.

I do use REW, and i use a miniDSP DDRC-22D for digital domain Dirac Live room correction in the 2 channel signal path in my system, but I'm not as fussy with HT.

I'll put the sub on the opposite wall and try dialing it in a bit before getting into measuring too much with REW. I'm hoping it sounds great right off the bat and I don't have to fuss with it too much.

Main System: Vizio P70 4K TV. Selah Vigore Speakers. KEF Q100 Rear L/R, Mirage BPS 400 LFE Sub. (2x)Rythmik FM8 Subs. Denon AVR-X4500H Receiver. Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 Integrated (2 channel). Oppo BDP-103. Zappiti Mini 4K HDR. GIK 242 Panels, Tri Traps, Monster Bass Trap. Various Vicoustic Desktop: Dynaudio BM6A mkII. Paradigm SUB10 w/ PBK. Cambridge DACMagic+ DAC. GIK 242 Panels, Monster Bass Trap Master Bedroom: Vizio M55 4K HDR. BG Radia In-Wall/Ceiling Speakers (5.2.2). NAD T758v3 Receiver
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post #608 of 1605 Old 08-27-2018, 06:22 PM
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Hi Chuck,

The long post actually helps, in my opinion, because it clarifies both your recent experience and your expectations. I'm going to give you a fairly lengthy reply in return, and I will shoot straight with you. I hope that's okay.

First, you haven't really been at this very long. You said that you replaced your 20-year old speakers in June, and you just got your new AVR on Friday. The first thing that I think you need is some patience to clarify your own goals a little better, and then some time and patience to execute them properly. This is something you said that may be important: "After the last upgrade to 5.2.4, I starting playing all my UHD and Atmos BD's. I noticed issues hearing dialogue."

Apparently adding more sound sources caused some issues with hearing clear dialogue. If we think about it, that may not be too surprising, if you were already right on the edge with some hearing loss anyway. So, you may need to decide what your real goal is here: clear dialogue, or overhead speakers? You could always try turning off your overhead speakers, in the Speaker Configuration menu, to see if that helps the dialogue.

The second observation I would make is that in your desire to go from zero to sixty in 6 seconds, you have emphasized having a lot of speakers, instead of emphasizing having adequate speakers. Most of us have had to build our HT systems on a budget, and we have built them over time. I think that most experienced HT owners would tell you that it's better, from a sound quality standpoint, to have a good 5.1 system than it is to have a meh 5.1.4 system. (The .1 channel always counts as 1 regardless of the number of subwoofers.)

In fact, I would emphasize the front soundstage even more than the surround speakers, so I would say that a good 3.1 system is the best starting point. The front three speakers is really where the great majority of the important content comes from.

My impression when you posted pictures of your room was that your front three speakers were under-powered for your listening distance. That wouldn't be so obvious with the Left Front and Right Front speakers. But, it could be very noticeable with dialogue for the center channel. Your surround speakers may add to the problem by playing distracting ambient content.

And, your subwoofers could add to the problem because that CC needs a crossover of at least 80Hz or 90Hz, in my opinion. That's to keep the speaker from distorting, which would also interfere with dialogue clarity, even if the distortion were not extremely noticeable by itself. But, as you go up with the crossover, that allows more bass to leak into the sound, making male voices sound chestier and harder to hear clearly. As you noted, accents don't help either.

I don't think that your expectations are unreasonable or unattainable, but you need to take some time to figure things out and to experiment. You need to experiment with the Audyssey target curve and with Audyssey Flat. Which setting improves the quality of the sound for you? No one but you can answer that question. You need to experiment with DEQ on, and DEQ off. Which sounds better to you? You're the only one who counts with that question, too.

You need to experiment with different crossovers for your CC. And make the changes dramatic, so that you can hear real trends in the sound. Try a 60Hz crossover, and then go straight to a 100Hz crossover. You can try the in-between increments once you get a general idea of which direction is better--going up, or going down, from the usual recommendation of 80Hz. Take your time, and approach each setting individually so you will understand how it changes things. Otherwise, you won't really learn what you like.

It's your audio system, and your goals and priorities can be whatever you want them to be. If it were my audio system, I would upgrade my center channel first, and my two front speakers second, and I wouldn't care quite as much about the other channels until I got the front soundstage and the dialogue where I wanted them. Along the way, I would take the time to discover for myself what settings work best for my components, in my room, and for my preferences. But, all of that will take a bit of time and patience. I hope this helps!

Regards,
Mike

+1

The Center is way too low, for it's frequencies response.
I would go 100Hz or even, 120Hz.

See, my response to Chuck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck666 View Post
Thanks, Ray. And there's a measuring tape a foot from this keyboard, LOL

After rethinking most of what I've done, I think I need to discuss my journey to here and what are my expectations are to Nirvana, LOL. Last Fall, I update by video to TV to 4K and the BD and Tivo and then Roku. This June, I got the ATMOS bug and began replacing my, NO laughing, 20+ year old Bose Accoussticmass 3 and 5 speakers. I was a 5.0 config with a Yamaha AVP.. In the Atmos forum, it was suggested that I put my Bose speakers in the bathroom and upgrade. Gave to daughter. I had upgraded my AVP to another Yammy by then. I purchased 2 matching Monoprice 12" subs, there entry level ones, not the THX. Then added Klipsch speakers as I found them on Amazon, on sale. At that point, I had a 5.2.2 system. Loved the new found bass. That config sounded really nice using the Dolby test clips; so, I deciced 5.2.4 had to be better... LOL.. By then, I had been thru 5 other AVP. 2 Yamahas, 1 Denon and 2 Onkyos. After the last upgrade to 5.2.4, I starting playing all my UHD and Atmos BD's. I noticed issues hearing dialogue. By this time I was a regular on this forum. From that work with you fellows, I decided to upgrade my AVP to the Denon 4400H. The Onkyo wasn't doing good bass management, we thought....And, the EQ program had issue; it was said..

That's the journey so far. Sorry for needing to include it.

Today, I feel that I have an expectation issue with what I can achieve. What do I expect? First, 80% of my listening from late September to early May is OTA major networks thru my antenna and Tivo Roamio (Dolby Digital+). I supplement that with FireTV streaming of Sling FS1, USA, History, etc. (Stereo and some 5.1) for another 15% and Streaming Amazon Music (Stereo) for the rest of viewing/listening time. Occasionally, I will buy a new BD with Atmos. Expectation=clearest dialogue possible from all sources. At 75, I have normal hearing losses and it drops off about 7.5-8 kHz. Soft consonants kill me. The Brits and accents kill me, sorry friends.. So, 99% of my listening didn't need an upgrade, except speakers. And, most of my listening doesn't include bass below 50Hz.

Now, what I want to clarify today is my conceptions. As we look at the Audyssey data, we have XO at low as 60Hz. I think that means we are using bass management and anything above 60 (forget the roll off/on slopes) goes to the speaker in question and the rest goes to the subwoofers? Correct? So, if mid range bass (what is it's range?) is causing a lot of the muddiness, that would be too low? For discussion, let's stay with the big 5 speakers (LCR) and the 2 subs. My $100 subs spec at 50-250 Hz, my LR spec at 62-20K, extended to 54Hz and my C 82-20K, extended to 74Hz. The LCR speakers spec XO at 1800Hz? So, it is as Mike suggested? Up the XOs? Probably don't use DEQ?

The other issue for me is that the source sound type seems to influence the muddiness? The best sound processor for me seems to be Dolby Surround or Stereo for what I listen to and watch? All others produce muddiness to various degrees?

Can I even get there???

Sorry for the length of post. Hope it helps newbeessssssss?

Chuck

Hi Chuck

From one of your previous post, you got your Center set this way;
C 11.7 -4.5 60

60Hz, is way too low for that Center.
The spec, say 82Hz to 24KHz.

As the quote above yours from, Mike.
I would definitely change-it to a minimum of 100Hz.
Personally, I would use 120Hz, as been only 1/2 of an octave above, no crossover is a brick wall.
At 60Hz, it does explain your muddiness, by trying to play lower, than what it was design for.

Not only your center will sound better, you will not loose any lower content, since your AVR, will tell your sub/s to take care of it, and doing what they were design for

That said, since your main problem was with the Center, I did Not look at the specs of your mains and surrounds.
You should double check those as well, before running a new calibration, and also change the settings if require.
Also remember, that often, Audyssey set the speaker frequencies too low.
So after calibration double check, and change them for what is needed!

Very much, hope everything work out at the end.
I think, your almost there


Ray

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post #609 of 1605 Old 08-27-2018, 10:25 PM
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Thanks, Ray.

Today, I started with the settings from the initial EQ run and mentioned in post #581 .... I changed nothing initially.

I then started by listening to my 5 media types and with each one went thru the settings pages of the Denon 4400. Before I did anything, I reviewed the Denon 4400H forum for pertinent tips in the FAQ and troubleshoots quide. There was one paragraph that spoke of low volume center channel suggestions.

I started with basic FM radio listening. I then went down thru the settings pages one at a time and varied whatever the parameter was to find which sounded best? Then, I continued on to FireTV (Netflix, SlingTV, Amazon Music), Tivo Roamio and BluRay player.

First, I added 3db to the Dialog Level adjust. Did not change the off settings of: Subwoofer level, Cinema EQ, Restorer, Audio Delay and Volume controls.
In Audyssey, changed MultiEQ to "flat", Dynamic EX to "on" and 10db offset, Dynamic Volume to "Medium" and left LFC off. I found Dolby Surround was the sound mode I chose most often. These settings were all changed as mentioned going thru FM listening and I did NOT find and reason to change those values thru the rest of the 6 listening sources.

Things sound pretty good. Not perfect, but better.
Tomorrow I will try the XO changes that have been suggested and hear what I can hear.

Because Amazon has such a good return policy; I ordered an upgraded CC speaker. A RP-250C, which nearly an identical size to the R-25C. Simple swap should help me learn and understand some of the other thoughts suggested here.

My only question in regard to the speaker is that, it has a rear port and I didn't find any guidance on the net as to how close the back side can be to walls and cabinets

Let your thoughts rain,
Chuck

EDIT: This morning I did my first XO corrections. Several suggestions were offered in relation to the CC. Remember AEQ had it set at 60 hz, which made NO sense. Today, I tried 100, 110, 120 and 150. I did not HEAR a lot of difference and many choices sounded identical at normal MV listening levels. Does anyone know of a differential test? At this point, I am selecting 120Hz...
Next, I will adjust LFE of LPF, which is now 120Hz. Only had one suggestion - 90.

EDIT 2: I tried values from 80-150 and could not HEAR any differences in dialog; clearly, I do NOT know how to test?

Need Rain of thoughts.

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post #610 of 1605 Old 08-28-2018, 01:31 PM
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I have a question regarding setting sub amp gain and AVR trim. My HSU VTF2 MK5 sub recommends to set the gain at the 9 o'clock position. However, this caused Audyssey to set the trim at only -.5

Should I try the amp gain more at the 12 o'clock position and re-run Audyssey? My understanding from this thread, is that more headroom/negative AVR trim is desirable.
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Originally Posted by Chuck666 View Post
Thanks, Ray.

Today, I started with the settings from the initial EQ run and mentioned in post #581 .... I changed nothing initially.

I then started by listening to my 5 media types and with each one went thru the settings pages of the Denon 4400. Before I did anything, I reviewed the Denon 4400H forum for pertinent tips in the FAQ and troubleshoots quide. There was one paragraph that spoke of low volume center channel suggestions.

I started with basic FM radio listening. I then went down thru the settings pages one at a time and varied whatever the parameter was to find which sounded best? Then, I continued on to FireTV (Netflix, SlingTV, Amazon Music), Tivo Roamio and BluRay player.

First, I added 3db to the Dialog Level adjust. Did not change the off settings of: Subwoofer level, Cinema EQ, Restorer, Audio Delay and Volume controls.
In Audyssey, changed MultiEQ to "flat", Dynamic EX to "on" and 10db offset, Dynamic Volume to "Medium" and left LFC off. I found Dolby Surround was the sound mode I chose most often. These settings were all changed as mentioned going thru FM listening and I did NOT find and reason to change those values thru the rest of the 6 listening sources.

Things sound pretty good. Not perfect, but better.
Tomorrow I will try the XO changes that have been suggested and hear what I can hear.

Because Amazon has such a good return policy; I ordered an upgraded CC speaker. A RP-250C, which nearly an identical size to the R-25C. Simple swap should help me learn and understand some of the other thoughts suggested here.

My only question in regard to the speaker is that, it has a rear port and I didn't find any guidance on the net as to how close the back side can be to walls and cabinets

Let your thoughts rain,
Chuck

EDIT: This morning I did my first XO corrections. Several suggestions were offered in relation to the CC. Remember AEQ had it set at 60 hz, which made NO sense. Today, I tried 100, 110, 120 and 150. I did not HEAR a lot of difference and many choices sounded identical at normal MV listening levels. Does anyone know of a differential test? At this point, I am selecting 120Hz...
Next, I will adjust LFE of LPF, which is now 120Hz. Only had one suggestion - 90.

EDIT 2: I tried values from 80-150 and could not HEAR any differences in dialog; clearly, I do NOT know how to test?

Need Rain of thoughts.

Hi Chuck,

I have two observations. First, as long as you give the port of a speaker about an inch or so clearance from a solid obstruction you should be fine. Second, remember that I advised you not to test incremental changes in your CC crossover. I think that your preliminary setting of 120Hz may be fine, and in that case, then I would just use 120Hz for the LPF of LFE also.

But, if I really wanted to test dialogue clarity with different crossovers, I would make the changes dramatic. I would listen for a few minutes at 60Hz, and then make an immediate change to 150Hz. Now, listen to that for a few minutes. Give yourself some time. Better or worse? Our audio memory can be measured in seconds, so if you go up the scale incrementally, it's unlikely that you will be able to tell much difference. There should be some kind of difference between 60Hz and 150Hz, and if there really isn't to your ears, then so be it. Just go with 120Hz.

If there is a difference between 60Hz and 150Hz, just keep switching back-and-forth until you discover which you like better, and why. They don't have to be fast switches. You can listen to an episode of a TV program with a 60Hz setting, and then listen to a different episode of the same program with a 150Hz setting. That will give you a clue to whether the best solution lies in the 60Hz to 90Hz range, or whether it lies in the 120Hz to 150Hz range.

Don't be in a hurry; this may take a day or two. And, I wouldn't even strain to concentrate, or to try to hear differences. I would just relax and watch the programs, and let a gradual impression form naturally, of the difference (if any) between 60Hz and 150Hz, with dialogue that may normally be a little difficult to hear. That will put you on an analytical track to finding a crossover that works best for your hearing, with your equipment, in your room. And, the crossover is the only change I would make while I was doing this. That gives you a controlled constant.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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Originally Posted by marantz545 View Post
I have a question regarding setting sub amp gain and AVR trim. My HSU VTF2 MK5 sub recommends to set the gain at the 9 o'clock position. However, this caused Audyssey to set the trim at only -.5

Should I try the amp gain more at the 12 o'clock position and re-run Audyssey? My understanding from this thread, is that more headroom/negative AVR trim is desirable.

Hi,

Yes, you should raise the gain on your subwoofer and recalibrate. But, I don't know if 12:00 is correct or not. Raising it all the way to 12:00 may give you a trim setting of -12, so you will have to experiment to find a gain setting (perhaps 11:00, for instance) that gets you down into a low negative trim range such as -9 to -11. But, you don't want to go lower than -12, because that's the bottom of the trim control. If you want to understand the whole process better, there is a detailed explanation in this subsection of the Guide:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...ences.html#IIC

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

Yes, you should raise the gain on your subwoofer and recalibrate. But, I don't know if 12:00 is correct or not. Raising it all the way to 12:00 may give you a trim setting of -12, so you will have to experiment to find a gain setting (perhaps 11:00, for instance) that gets you down into a low negative trim range such as -9 to -11. But, you don't want to go lower than -12, because that's the bottom of the trim control. If you want to understand the whole process better, there is a detailed explanation in this subsection of the Guide:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...ences.html#IIC

Regards,
Mike

Hi Mike,


I raised the gain to 12:00 and ran Audyssey again. This time it set the sub trim at -2.5


Should I raise the gain a little more and re-run Audyssey? It sounds pretty good, but I think the sub needs a touch more boost. I would like to add about 2 or 3 to the trim.


Thanks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marantz545 View Post
Hi Mike,


I raised the gain to 12:00 and ran Audyssey again. This time it set the sub trim at -2.5


Should I raise the gain a little more and re-run Audyssey? It sounds pretty good, but I think the sub needs a touch more boost. I would like to add about 2 or 3 to the trim.


Thanks

You are welcome! Yes, you should raise the gain again, but...

If you went from 9:00 to 12:00 and only picked up 3db (+0.5 to -2.5), then I'm not sure that your subwoofer is in a great location. Have you done a sub crawl yet to determine whether or not the subwoofer is playing in the best position available? There is an explanation of how to do that in the last subsection of Section VIII of the Guide, or you can Google the procedure.

If you have already done a sub crawl, then never mind. Just raise the gain to 1:00 or 2:00 to get a nice low trim number, and rerun Audyssey. Then you can boost the subwoofer with the trim control, while still staying at about -5 or so. (You could also just raise the gain without running Audyssey again, and lower the trim to about -5 to get the balance you want between gain and trim. Either method would work perfectly well.)
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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Do I need to worry about setting the phase on the ML before I re-run the calibration? I know I need to level match the subs, and I think I'll run PBK as well on the ML (should I use the PBK EQ at all?) before I run Audyssey on my Denon AVR-X3200 receiver.
I've reviewed two different subs that had a PBK, including the ML 1500, and I found it did work pretty well. Might be worth considering.
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Hi Chuck,

I have two observations. First, as long as you give the port of a speaker about an inch or so clearance from a solid obstruction you should be fine. Second, remember that I advised you not to test incremental changes in your CC crossover. I think that your preliminary setting of 120Hz may be fine, and in that case, then I would just use 120Hz for the LPF of LFE also.

But, if I really wanted to test dialogue clarity with different crossovers, I would make the changes dramatic. I would listen for a few minutes at 60Hz, and then make an immediate change to 150Hz. Now, listen to that for a few minutes. Give yourself some time. Better or worse? Our audio memory can be measured in seconds, so if you go up the scale incrementally, it's unlikely that you will be able to tell much difference. There should be some kind of difference between 60Hz and 150Hz, and if there really isn't to your ears, then so be it. Just go with 120Hz.

If there is a difference between 60Hz and 150Hz, just keep switching back-and-forth until you discover which you like better, and why. They don't have to be fast switches. You can listen to an episode of a TV program with a 60Hz setting, and then listen to a different episode of the same program with a 150Hz setting. That will give you a clue to whether the best solution lies in the 60Hz to 90Hz range, or whether it lies in the 120Hz to 150Hz range.

Don't be in a hurry; this may take a day or two. And, I wouldn't even strain to concentrate, or to try to hear differences. I would just relax and watch the programs, and let a gradual impression form naturally, of the difference (if any) between 60Hz and 150Hz, with dialogue that may normally be a little difficult to hear. That will put you on an analytical track to finding a crossover that works best for your hearing, with your equipment, in your room. And, the crossover is the only change I would make while I was doing this. That gives you a controlled constant.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks for the port answer.. I did do gross switches in trying the xos. And I did not hear really anything. So, I'll revert to 120 as suggested by you and others. I'll leave the other channels at EQ values. except the fronts, chg to 90. Tomorrow the new CC arrives and I'll see what I hear...LOL
Chuck

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post #617 of 1605 Old 08-29-2018, 11:26 AM
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Putting sealed and ported subwoofers together in a room is a bit of a crap shoot. The combined bass may sound just fine, and it may even measure well with REW. But, it is more likely that there will be peaks at some frequencies and dips at others. And, I believe that cancellation can be especially likely near the ported subs tuning point, where room EQ will no longer be helping. I won't promise that what I have just said is absolutely accurate, but I think I have captured the essence of it.
This is the rub.

Ported subs can suffer from large (sometimes very large) phase shifts around port tune. When paired with a sealed sub, this usually results in cancellation around the port tune of the ported sub, essentially killing the advantage the ported sub brings to the party.
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You are welcome! Yes, you should raise the gain again, but...

If you went from 9:00 to 12:00 and only picked up 3db (+0.5 to -2.5), then I'm not sure that your subwoofer is in a great location. Have you done a sub crawl yet to determine whether or not the subwoofer is playing in the best position available? There is an explanation of how to do that in the last subsection of Section VIII of the Guide, or you can Google the procedure.

If you have already done a sub crawl, then never mind. Just raise the gain to 1:00 or 2:00 to get a nice low trim number, and rerun Audyssey. Then you can boost the subwoofer with the trim control, while still staying at about -5 or so. (You could also just raise the gain without running Audyssey again, and lower the trim to about -5 to get the balance you want between gain and trim. Either method would work perfectly well.)

I just double-checked and apparently I only went from about the 9:00 position to the 11:00 position. I raised the sub gain to 2:00 and ran Audyssey. It set the trim at -6.5 which sounded ok. I raised it to -4.5 and that seems to be getting closer to the output I was looking for when watching Blu-Ray movies.


However, watching cable tv now it sounds a little bloated/boomy sounding. Like the cable tv (Spectrum/Time Warner) has some sort of bass boast or something. Any idea how to level that out without having to change it back to watch Blu-Rays?


Sub is HSU VTF 2 MK5


Appreciate all the help!
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post #619 of 1605 Old 08-29-2018, 07:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by marantz545 View Post
I just double-checked and apparently I only went from about the 9:00 position to the 11:00 position. I raised the sub gain to 2:00 and ran Audyssey. It set the trim at -6.5 which sounded ok. I raised it to -4.5 and that seems to be getting closer to the output I was looking for when watching Blu-Ray movies.


However, watching cable tv now it sounds a little bloated/boomy sounding. Like the cable tv (Spectrum/Time Warner) has some sort of bass boast or something. Any idea how to level that out without having to change it back to watch Blu-Rays?


Sub is HSU VTF 2 MK5


Appreciate all the help!

You are very welcome! You didn't mention whether you ever did a sub crawl to get your sub in the best location? Honestly, I think that sources vary so much that it's almost impossible to use the same settings for everything and still have things sound the same. If the bass sounds bloated on some sources, I would just back-off the sub trim a little during that program. As long as you give yourself some leeway in both directions, your remote is still an easy way to add and subtract some bass.

You could also try using one of the RLO settings, in the DEQ menu, for some content. You might like the way that sounds. Or, you could even turn DEQ off for some content, and then turn it back on again when you want. I have tried all of those things in the past. We actually have more user control on some of our modern AVR's than we may realize. We just need to experiment a little.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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[QUOTE=mthomas47;56720746]
Quote:
Originally Posted by marantz545 View Post

You are very welcome! You didn't mention whether you ever did a sub crawl to get your sub in the best location? Honestly, I think that sources vary so much that it's almost impossible to use the same settings for everything and still have things sound the same. If the bass sounds bloated on some sources, I would just back-off the sub trim a little during that program. As long as you give yourself some leeway in both directions, your remote is still an easy way to add and subtract some bass.

You could also try using one of the RLO settings, in the DEQ menu, for some content. You might like the way that sounds. Or, you could even turn DEQ off for some content, and then turn it back on again when you want. I have tried all of those things in the past. We actually have more user control on some of our modern AVR's than we may realize. We just need to experiment a little.

Regards,
Mike
Did the sub crawl and it’s in a decent location. I figured out the problem with the cable content being boomy... The cable box was set to wide (front channel spread). So I changed it and it’s good now.

This may help others.

Thanks again!
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post #621 of 1605 Old 08-31-2018, 08:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Lightbulb Guide Edits!

I have been working fairly hard over the past couple of weeks on Section VIII. So many people seem to be in a perennial search for new subwoofers that the section on subwoofer selection and placement may end-up being the most useful one in the Guide. That is if prospective buyers have the patience to read it. If they actually do read it, I will once again have to give @gene4ht credit for suggesting the section.

Part of what I have been trying to do is to integrate the subsections on sealed and ported subwoofers, comparing subwoofer performance (from the standpoint of native response), and considering single and multiple subs, into a more integrated approach to selecting subs rather than just individual subsections. I can't promise that those subsections won't ever evolve further, but I think I have generally achieved what I wanted, with respect to integration, if someone wants to look at Section VIII again.

I have been aware for some time that there was a hole in my discussion involving the comparison of native frequency response, which I believe is still a somewhat novel way to compare subwoofer performance. The hole is: what happens to the native frequency response of subwoofers when automated room EQ acts to even-out any inherent differences in bass weight?

I have created a new component to Section VIII-B, titled Native Subwoofer Response and Room EQ, which attempts to briefly explore that question. The answer is that I don't honestly know--depending on the type of room EQ, and on the specific action of room modes.

But, I think that bass weight can still be a factor in our subwoofer selection, and I feel better for having attempted to explore the question. Interested readers are invited to explore it with me. Here is a direct link to that subsection:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...ces.html#VIIIB

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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Thanks, Mike. That subwoofer selection section was one (along with room setup and EQ) that I was most interested in and I'll certainly read your update. It appears an additional sub may be my one real improvement, though until I get to REW, I won't really know and won't go out to buy anything new.

I did follow your link to the VibSensor thread. True BASSHEAD thread that -- often over my head. But what I learned is that my room readings are comparable to most others, but my levels are very low in comparison. Big, very solid room and subs 13' away. Points to getting a bigger, nearfield sub which is how I started with this. So your new section will help me when (if) I get there. Regardless, it's a really informative read for anyone interested in subs -- especially a new purchase.

(One suggestion in VibSensor was to take one of my down-firing subs, move it right behind my MLP and lay it on it's side facing me. Yeah, that would probably help, but the WAF drops way low. Just mentioning it got me bad vibs! )
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post #623 of 1605 Old 08-31-2018, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, Mike. That subwoofer selection section was one (along with room setup and EQ) that I was most interested in and I'll certainly read your update. It appears an additional sub may be my one real improvement, though until I get to REW, I won't really know and won't go out to buy anything new.

I did follow your link to the VibSensor thread. True BASSHEAD thread that -- often over my head. But what I learned is that my room readings are comparable to most others, but my levels are very low in comparison. Big, very solid room and subs 13' away. Points to getting a bigger, nearfield sub which is how I started with this. So your new section will help me when (if) I get there. Regardless, it's a really informative read for anyone interested in subs -- especially a new purchase.

(One suggestion in VibSensor was to take one of my down-firing subs, move it right behind my MLP and lay it on it's side facing me. Yeah, that would probably help, but the WAF drops way low. Just mentioning it got me bad vibs! )

You are welcome, Rich! I don't know that you should discard that last suggestion so lightly, though. TR is TR! Nobody said that we have to distinguish between good vibes and bad vibes.

Oh wait! Your wife is the one who appreciated the mention of WAF in the Guide, so I should probably take that into consideration. Maybe the Beach Boys had it right after all.
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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #624 of 1605 Old 08-31-2018, 05:30 PM
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Hello everyone,

It's been a while since I've had time to check in. Well, I'm about to sell my rental property which will allow me to purchase the new sub. As many of you know, I was set on the Rythmik FV18. However, I just read the article by James Larson at Audioholics on the SVS PB-400. It seems like a competitive build, there is some DB loss at 25Hz and 80Hz+. I am attracted to the SVS for several reasons (listed below). Please let me know your thoughts. I PROMISE after this discussion, I'll just buy one of the damn subs and never look back

1. Build, the enclosure is MUCH nicer looking which helps with the WAF. This is in my living room, not behind a large projection screen
2. It has a remote!
3. I really like the app which allows you to calibrate on the fly without having to get up and adjust the gain mid-movie
4. I also like the calibration function which adjusts for room acoustics
5. Just seems like more tech and R&D went into the sub

So the questions is, with the above attributes over the Rythmik, is the 18" driver with Direct Servo still a superior sub?

Here is the article: https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...ws/svs-pb-4000

Misc: 7,000 cuft room, 60% Movies / 40% Music
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Last edited by Politicking; 08-31-2018 at 05:38 PM.
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post #625 of 1605 Old 08-31-2018, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Politicking View Post
Hello everyone,

It's been a while since I've had time to check in. Well, I'm about to sell my rental property which will allow me to purchase the new sub. As many of you know, I was set on the Rythmik FV18. However, I just read the article by James Larson at Audioholics on the SVS PB-400. It seems like a competitive build, there is some DB loss at 25Hz and 80Hz+. I am attracted to the SVS for several reasons (listed below). Please let me know your thoughts. I PROMISE after this discussion, I'll just buy one of the damn subs and never look back

1. Build, the enclosure is MUCH nicer looking which helps with the WAF. This is in my living room, not behind a large projection screen
2. It has a remote!
3. I really like the app which allows you to calibrate on the fly without having to get up and adjust the gain mid-movie
4. I also like the calibration function which adjusts for room acoustics
5. Just seems like more tech and R&D went into the sub

So the questions is, with the above attributes over the Rythmik, is the 18" driver with Direct Servo still a superior sub?

Here is the article: https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...ws/svs-pb-4000

Misc: 7,000 cuft room, 60% Movies / 40% Music

Hi,

I don't know what your typical listening volume is for movies, or how much bass you like. Knowing more about your specific bass goals would help a lot. But, I don't think that either subwoofer is likely to have enough firepower in a 7000^3 room. I have a 6000^3 room and a PB4000, among other subs, so I think that I am in a good position to make that observation. At a minimum, I think that you are going to need two of whatever subwoofer you pick.

You will do yourself a favor if you read at least subsections C, D, and E of Section VIII of the Guide, linked in my signature. I believe that you will understand things better if you read the whole section, but the last three would be especially pertinent in helping you to better define your goals. After helping what feels like hundreds of people with subwoofer purchases, I am convinced that defining your own performance goals is the real key. And, that includes your desire for total bass SPL, and your specific mid-bass and low-bass preferences. It also includes low-bass tactile response, which is different from SPL, and which the PB4000 will have more of than the FV18.

Section VIII of the Guide was written specifically to help people who are in the same position you are in. Now, if I can only get people to read it. Once you understand your own goals better, with respect to output and some other things, we can do a better job of discussing features and amenities.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #626 of 1605 Old 08-31-2018, 06:09 PM
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Seem like it was only a few months ago, that your Guide became a sticky.
And WOW, already on page 21, with over 600 posts


Obviously, the members, new and seasons like it very much


Ray
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post #627 of 1605 Old 09-02-2018, 10:15 AM
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You are welcome, Rich! I don't know that you should discard that last suggestion so lightly, though. TR is TR! Nobody said that we have to distinguish between good vibes and bad vibes.

Oh wait! Your wife is the one who appreciated the mention of WAF in the Guide, so I should probably take that into consideration. Maybe the Beach Boys had it right after all.
Ok, I got the TR boost and the extra vibes . Then I almost made a fool of myself on your Beach Boys reference. I've been a fan since Surfin' USA. Even got to see them at their DC July 4 concert on the mall in 1984 with 500,000 others and again close up and personal in a "small" club in Pueto Rico in 2000. But I was starting this response just about to admit ignorance of your reference when "Good, good, go-od, Good Vibrations" started running through my head! Yah -- the "bad" vibes could result in cancellation of good TR.

Better to buy a new sub!
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post #628 of 1605 Old 09-02-2018, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I don't know what your typical listening volume is for movies, or how much bass you like. Knowing more about your specific bass goals would help a lot. But, I don't think that either subwoofer is likely to have enough firepower in a 7000^3 room. I have a 6000^3 room and a PB4000, among other subs, so I think that I am in a good position to make that observation. At a minimum, I think that you are going to need two of whatever subwoofer you pick.

You will do yourself a favor if you read at least subsections C, D, and E of Section VIII of the Guide, linked in my signature. I believe that you will understand things better if you read the whole section, but the last three would be especially pertinent in helping you to better define your goals. After helping what feels like hundreds of people with subwoofer purchases, I am convinced that defining your own performance goals is the real key. And, that includes your desire for total bass SPL, and your specific mid-bass and low-bass preferences. It also includes low-bass tactile response, which is different from SPL, and which the PB4000 will have more of than the FV18.

Section VIII of the Guide was written specifically to help people who are in the same position you are in. Now, if I can only get people to read it. Once you understand your own goals better, with respect to output and some other things, we can do a better job of discussing features and amenities.

Regards,
Mike

+1

Those are big room to fill
Multiple subs are a requirement for that kind of space, in my view.

Mine is 1728^3, and have two PB13.
I though it was the right decision to get two, on my part.
More than needed in most case, but when the bass requirement, demand-it, I got extra juice to go


Ray
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Last edited by darthray; 09-03-2018 at 06:10 AM.
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post #629 of 1605 Old 09-02-2018, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by richlife View Post
Ok, I got the TR boost and the extra vibes . Then I almost made a fool of myself on your Beach Boys reference. I've been a fan since Surfin' USA. Even got to see them at their DC July 4 concert on the mall in 1984 with 500,000 others and again close up and personal in a "small" club in Pueto Rico in 2000. But I was starting this response just about to admit ignorance of your reference when "Good, good, go-od, Good Vibrations" started running through my head! Yah -- the "bad" vibes could result in cancellation of good TR.

Better to buy a new sub!

OK this has nothing to do with this thread, but I had to post this. I'm sitting here listening to my "Toe Tappers" playlist while catching up on threads that I follow. When I finished reading your post, The Beach Boys started playing Good Vibrations in my room. I'm not kidding, what a coincidence. I know, not very interesting to anyone but me, but I just had to post this.


While I'm here, I just wanted to thank Mike for very thoughtful contributions to our hobby. I'm an old guy that enjoys the hobby, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to offer advice to others, so I mostly lurk on these sub forums to learn what I can. Mike, as others have said, your contributions have increased my listening enjoyment. A few weeks ago I tried Cascading Crossovers and my system has never sounded better. Thank you for all you do!


Jack
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post #630 of 1605 Old 09-02-2018, 07:14 PM - Thread Starter
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OK this has nothing to do with this thread, but I had to post this. I'm sitting here listening to my "Toe Tappers" playlist while catching up on threads that I follow. When I finished reading your post, The Beach Boys started playing Good Vibrations in my room. I'm not kidding, what a coincidence. I know, not very interesting to anyone but me, but I just had to post this.

While I'm here, I just wanted to thank Mike for very thoughtful contributions to our hobby. I'm an old guy that enjoys the hobby, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to offer advice to others, so I mostly lurk on these sub forums to learn what I can. Mike, as others have said, your contributions have increased my listening enjoyment. A few weeks ago I tried Cascading Crossovers and my system has never sounded better. Thank you for all you do!

Jack

You are very welcome, Jack! And, thank you for sharing that with me! It makes me feel good to know that I have been able to add to your listening enjoyment. As far as I know, everyone who has tried cascading crossovers lately has found that they make a positive difference. I could wish that we had all discovered them sooner, but I'm really just glad that we discovered them at all. Glass half full!

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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