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post #1141 of 1400 Old 03-05-2019, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Not sure I understand your reference to "My Setup". I don't have subs in the corners of my room.
From what I can tell from the pictures, the front left is close to a corner with uninterrupted walls in both directions. And that sub had the best unequalized response, IMO.

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post #1142 of 1400 Old 03-05-2019, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Wayne A. Pflughaupt View Post
From what I can tell from the pictures, the front left is close to a corner with uninterrupted walls in both directions. And that sub had the best unequalized response, IMO.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
My two front subs are at the 1/4 and 3/4 marks, and my two rear subs are in the middle of the width of the room. IME, the 1/4 and 3/4 placements are much more common than corner placements. But different rooms will have different results.
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post #1143 of 1400 Old 03-05-2019, 08:11 PM
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I got around to doing some more SPL readings at different crossovers to see what gives me the flattest response (results below), and have a couple generic questions.

My front speakers are DefTech BP9060's, and my subwoofer is an HSU VTF15-MK2. I ran Audyssey XT32 and I then changed my bass management to Small with an initial crossover at 80hz. Everything is all good, sounds good, and passes my demo ear tests. I only wanted to test the difference between 40hz, 60hz, and 80hz crossovers.

Anyway, based on my readings, it does seem that 80hz gives the most even/flattest response. When using 60hz or 40hz crossover, there's a big drop off at 40hz.

(1) Most places I've read is that you only need to check the four 1/3 octaves above and below the cross-over. For example, when testing 80hz, I checked 63, 50, 40, and 31.5 for "below", and 100, 125, 160 and 200 for "above". The averages for below and above were fairly flat and came out to the same number.

(2) I've also been given advice that "C" weighting on SPL meter needs to be adjusted with correction factors based on some derived numbers. You can see those adjustments in the attachment, but they are relatively minor. I'm not sure if this is specific to radio shack meters only or in general all "C" weighted meters?

(3) The 16hz, 20hz, and 25hz readings seem high and not tamed by XT32, and that's before accounting for the correction values of +11.5 at 16hz for example. Is this normal?

Thanks in advance
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post #1144 of 1400 Old 03-06-2019, 05:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
I got around to doing some more SPL readings at different crossovers to see what gives me the flattest response (results below), and have a couple generic questions.

My front speakers are DefTech BP9080's, and my subwoofer is an HSU VTF15-MK2. I ran Audyssey XT32 and I then changed my bass management to Small with an initial crossover at 80hz. Everything is all good, sounds good, and passes my demo ear tests. I only wanted to test the difference between 40hz, 60hz, and 80hz crossovers.

Anyway, based on my readings, it does seem that 80hz gives the most even/flattest response. When using 60hz or 40hz crossover, there's a big drop off at 40hz.

(1) Most places I've read is that you only need to check the four 1/3 octaves above and below the cross-over. For example, when testing 80hz, I checked 63, 50, 40, and 31.5 for "below", and 100, 125, 160 and 200 for "above". The averages for below and above were fairly flat and came out to the same number.

(2) I've also been given advice that "C" weighting on SPL meter needs to be adjusted with correction factors based on some derived numbers. You can see those adjustments in the attachment, but they are relatively minor. I'm not sure if this is specific to radio shack meters only or in general all "C" weighted meters?

(3) The 16hz, 20hz, and 25hz readings seem high and not tamed by XT32, and that's before accounting for the correction values of +11.5 at 16hz for example. Is this normal?

Thanks in advance

Hi,

I admire your diligence in measuring the SPL, at various frequencies, using the warble tones. And, I agree that using an 80Hz crossover appears to give you the best results. But, I don't think you can draw too many conclusions from the measurements below 31.5Hz. Frankly, they don't look correct to me. We would normally expect an uncalibrated SPL meter to measure low at frequencies below about 40hz or so. But, it looks as if that meter is registering those frequencies as too high, rather than too low. I can't account for that, but I am very skeptical that the numbers are accurate. If you really wanted to investigate this, you would need REW to do it properly.

Typically, the lower frequencies would be dropping-off, or at best, staying equal with the frequencies above about 35Hz. The exception to that would be if you were in a very small room (probably under 1500^3) where you were getting a great deal of room gain, or where you were boosting your subwoofer a lot. If the increases in SPL that you see below 31.5Hz were due to room gain, Audyssey would have pulled them down when you ran the auto calibration routine. Audyssey can pull down peaks in SPL by up to 20db. That's another reason why I think your low-frequency SPL readings are simply not correct.

Of course, you might be employing a very strong subwoofer boost, but if so, I would have expected you to mention that. If you are employing a strong subwoofer boost, post-Audyssey, and by chance your SPL meter is measuring the <31.5Hz frequencies accurately, then you have a very nice low-bass house curve going for you--especially with only a single subwoofer.

I think I would go back to your statement that everything sounds good and passes your ear demo tests. But, if you are really curious about your frequency response, I think you will need a more sophisticated measurement system (such as REW) to satisfy your curiosity.

Regards,
Mike
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post #1145 of 1400 Old 03-06-2019, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I admire your diligence in measuring the SPL, at various frequencies, using the warble tones. And, conclusions from I agree that using an 80Hz crossover appears to give you the best results. But, I don't think you can draw too many the measurements below 31.5Hz. Frankly, they don't look correct to me. We would normally expect an uncalibrated SPL meter to measure low at frequencies below about 40hz or so. But, it looks as if that meter is registering those frequencies as too high, rather than too low. I can't account for that, but I am very skeptical that the numbers are accurate. If you really wanted to investigate this, you would need REW to do it properly.

Typically, the lower frequencies would be dropping-off, or at best, staying equal with the frequencies above about 35Hz. The exception to that would be if you were in a very small room (probably under 1500^3) where you were getting a great deal of room gain, or where you were boosting your subwoofer a lot. If the increases in SPL that you see below 31.5Hz were due to room gain, Audyssey would have pulled them down when you ran the auto calibration routine. Audyssey can pull down peaks in SPL by up to 20db. That's another reason why I think your low-frequency SPL readings are simply not correct.

Of course, you might be employing a very strong subwoofer boost, but if so, I would have expected you to mention that. If you are employing a strong subwoofer boost, post-Audyssey, and by chance your SPL meter is measuring the <31.5Hz frequencies accurately, then you have a very nice low-bass house curve going for you--especially with only a single subwoofer.

I think I would go back to your statement that everything sounds good and passes your ear demo tests. But, if you are really curious about your frequency response, I think you will need a more sophisticated measurement system (such as REW) to satisfy your curiosity.

Regards,
Mike
+1, SPL meter are know not been accurate at lower frequencies.
In my days of manual tweaking, I always use the Radio Shack correction table. Will post couple link for the OP, after I reply to him.
But as you say, it pass the test of Everything Sound Good. And for the OP, this all it should matter

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
I got around to doing some more SPL readings at different crossovers to see what gives me the flattest response (results below), and have a couple generic questions.

My front speakers are DefTech BP9060's, and my subwoofer is an HSU VTF15-MK2. I ran Audyssey XT32 and I then changed my bass management to Small with an initial crossover at 80hz. Everything is all good, sounds good, and passes my demo ear tests. I only wanted to test the difference between 40hz, 60hz, and 80hz crossovers.

Anyway, based on my readings, it does seem that 80hz gives the most even/flattest response. When using 60hz or 40hz crossover, there's a big drop off at 40hz.

(1) Most places I've read is that you only need to check the four 1/3 octaves above and below the cross-over. For example, when testing 80hz, I checked 63, 50, 40, and 31.5 for "below", and 100, 125, 160 and 200 for "above". The averages for below and above were fairly flat and came out to the same number.

(2) I've also been given advice that "C" weighting on SPL meter needs to be adjusted with correction factors based on some derived numbers. You can see those adjustments in the attachment, but they are relatively minor. I'm not sure if this is specific to radio shack meters only or in general all "C" weighted meters?

(3) The 16hz, 20hz, and 25hz readings seem high and not tamed by XT32, and that's before accounting for the correction values of +11.5 at 16hz for example. Is this normal?

Thanks in advance
As Mike said to you, Kudos for measuring different frequencies settings

Most SPL meter are not accurate at lower frequencies.
As seen by this link;
http://diyaudioprojects.com/Testeq/R...50/33-2050.htm
That said, you mention that you have use "C" weight for your measurements, with a correction table
https://www.noisemeters.com/help/faq...-weighting.asp
Since those SPL meter vary between each other, even with the same brand and model to a degree. The correction table give a good a idea of what your situation is.

I love your numbers for the 80Hz setting, look very nice
As you mention, since it pass the most important test (your hears and how it sound to you).
At this point, I believe you are Golden
Just enjoy, and get a REW if your curiosity take over.


Ray
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post #1146 of 1400 Old 03-07-2019, 09:35 AM
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I wonder if the “analog” SPL offset chart would be needed for an average $70 DIGITAL SPL meter?

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post #1147 of 1400 Old 03-07-2019, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Mactavish View Post
I wonder if the “analog” SPL offset chart would be needed for an average $70 DIGITAL SPL meter?
More likely, yes.

The link I posted in my previous post, is for the Radio Shack SPL.
http://diyaudioprojects.com/Testeq/R...50/33-2050.htm
A quick search on Google with the SPL brand and model, with the key word "correction chart for".
Should show if there one for your specific SPL.


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post #1148 of 1400 Old 03-07-2019, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
More likely, yes.

The link I posted in my previous post, is for the Radio Shack SPL.
http://diyaudioprojects.com/Testeq/R...50/33-2050.htm
A quick search on Google with the SPL brand and model, with the key word "correction chart for".
Should show if there one for your specific SPL.


Ray
I went back and checked the SPL meter I used (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...re-bullets-btf) and sure enough it's actually rated only down to 31.5hz. If I do invest in a better meter, I'll check the one you linked to.

Just like Mike Thomas stated, it explains his intuition that it's probably not reading correctly..
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post #1149 of 1400 Old 03-07-2019, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
I went back and checked the SPL meter I used (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...re-bullets-btf) and sure enough it's actually rated only down to 31.5hz. If I do invest in a better meter, I'll check the one you linked to.

Just like Mike Thomas stated, it explains his intuition that it's probably not reading correctly..
Very rare Mike is wrong when it come to sub set-up

Just want to point out, my previous link for a correction table;
http://diyaudioprojects.com/Testeq/R...50/33-2050.htm
Was the RadioShack one, not sure how close those corrections are for your SPL.

At the moment, I cannot find the proper corrections table for yours


Ray
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post #1150 of 1400 Old 03-07-2019, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Very rare Mike is wrong when it come to sub set-up.
Just want to point out, my previous link for a correction table;
http://diyaudioprojects.com/Testeq/R...50/33-2050.htm
Was the RadioShack one, not sure how close those corrections are for your SPL.
The correction values I used were for a radio shack meter, lol. Even without applying any correction factors (since there's no way of knowing how they translate between the same brands vs other brands anyway), my results seemed balanced enough. Since it also passed my hearing tests, I'm not toooo worried, I'm just a perfectionist and I like doing this stuff anyway. I sometimes spend more time testing, tweaking, experimenting, learning and asking questions than I do watching movies (but in a good way since it's part of the fun).

Also for example, I couldn't tell a difference when trying 40/60/80...but since 80 seems to show smoothest results, I'll just keep it like that..

And yes, I trust Mike's (and yours, and other members) suggestions/tips.
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post #1151 of 1400 Old 03-07-2019, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
The correction values I used were for a radio shack meter, lol. Even without applying any correction factors (since there's no way of knowing how they translate between the same brands vs other brands anyway), my results seemed balanced enough. Since it also passed my hearing tests, I'm not toooo worried, I'm just a perfectionist and I like doing this stuff anyway. I sometimes spend more time testing, tweaking, experimenting, learning and asking questions than I do watching movies (but in a good way since it's part of the fun).

Also for example, I couldn't tell a difference when trying 40/60/80...but since 80 seems to show smoothest results, I'll just keep it like that..

And yes, I trust Mike's (and yours, and other members) suggestions/tips.
This hobby can become very addictive
As you said, since it sound good to you. I would not worry about-it.


Ray

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post #1152 of 1400 Old 03-07-2019, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
I went back and checked the SPL meter I used (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...re-bullets-btf) and sure enough it's actually rated only down to 31.5hz. If I do invest in a better meter, I'll check the one you linked to.

Just like Mike Thomas stated, it explains his intuition that it's probably not reading correctly..
Why not consider investing in a UMIK-1 and REW? Much better than using an SPL.
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Using the MultEQ app and a Marantz AV7704 pre/pro, calibrated sub levels are -7.5 dB for Sub 1 and -8.0 for Sub 2.

So far (only had the 7704 for a week), I prefer to boost both subs 7 dB for music, so the resulting levels are -0.5 dB and -1.0 dB, so just barely into the negative. This is with DEQ off. When listening to music at "loud" levels briefly, the MV was at -7.

I would certainly expect/hope that a dedicated pre/pro could cleanly drive the sub outputs at those trim levels, even at high/reference volumes.

However, I've read that it's good to keep sub trims at -5 dB or lower, as a rule of thumb. However, not clear on the basis for this rule of thumb. Is it based on measured sub output distortion on some specific AVR models?

Ultimately, is it worth it to increase gain on the subs and rerun the calibration so that trims are -5 dB or less after boosting to the preferred level?

If so, I guess it would be best to increase both subs to the same level at the MLP using a SPL meter prior to rerunning the calibration.


-

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Quote:
Originally Posted by adam2434 View Post
Using the MultEQ app and a Marantz AV7704 pre/pro, calibrated sub levels are -7.5 dB for Sub 1 and -8.0 for Sub 2.

So far (only had the 7704 for a week), I prefer to boost both subs 7 dB for music, so the resulting levels are -0.5 dB and -1.0 dB, so just barely into the negative. This is with DEQ off. When listening to music at "loud" levels briefly, the MV was at -7.

I would certainly expect/hope that a dedicated pre/pro could cleanly drive the sub outputs at those trim levels, even at high/reference volumes.

However, I've read that it's good to keep sub trims at -5 dB or lower, as a rule of thumb. However, not clear on the basis for this rule of thumb. Is it based on measured sub output distortion on some specific AVR models?

Ultimately, is it worth it to increase gain on the subs and rerun the calibration so that trims are -5 dB or less after boosting to the preferred level?

If so, I guess it would be best to increase both subs to the same level at the MLP using a SPL meter prior to rerunning the calibration.


-
You are flying blind. Consider using REW measurements to test the performance of your subs. REW has a distortion measurement. By running the measurement sweeps at increasing output levels, you will be able to see at what level the sub starts to produce excessive distortion levels. Without measurements, all you have is theory.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
You are flying blind. Consider using REW measurements to test the performance of your subs. REW has a distortion measurement. By running the measurement sweeps at increasing output levels, you will be able to see at what level the sub starts to produce excessive distortion levels. Without measurements, all you have is theory.
Yep, I'm considering REW for other reasons, more frequency response related.

But regarding your comment in relation to the -5 dB sub trim rule of thumb, are you recommending REW for determining if "current" sub trims cause excessive distortion at increasing output levels? And from there, would one experiment with higher sub gain and lower trim levels to potentially reduce distortion?

Also, what is considered excessive? When a certain % threshold is hit?



-

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Quote:
Originally Posted by adam2434 View Post
Using the MultEQ app and a Marantz AV7704 pre/pro, calibrated sub levels are -7.5 dB for Sub 1 and -8.0 for Sub 2.

So far (only had the 7704 for a week), I prefer to boost both subs 7 dB for music, so the resulting levels are -0.5 dB and -1.0 dB, so just barely into the negative. This is with DEQ off. When listening to music at "loud" levels briefly, the MV was at -7.

I would certainly expect/hope that a dedicated pre/pro could cleanly drive the sub outputs at those trim levels, even at high/reference volumes.

However, I've read that it's good to keep sub trims at -5 dB or lower, as a rule of thumb. However, not clear on the basis for this rule of thumb. Is it based on measured sub output distortion on some specific AVR models?

Ultimately, is it worth it to increase gain on the subs and rerun the calibration so that trims are -5 dB or less after boosting to the preferred level?

If so, I guess it would be best to increase both subs to the same level at the MLP using a SPL meter prior to rerunning the calibration.

-

Hi,

Jerry's advice to be able to measure your frequency response, and to be able to test for indications of distortion or compression, is always good advice. But, the simple fact is that most people are never going to do that. So, let me try to answer the questions you asked.

There are two reasons why it can be advisable to keep the AVR trims a little lower than you currently have them. First, clipping can sometimes occur with trim levels above about -5 or so. That is especially true where master volumes are at -10 or higher. Second, some subwoofers can't achieve their max output levels unless gain levels are fairly high.

I have seen that specifically apply to some SVS and PSA subs, but I can't tell you if it also applies to the Outlaw subs listed in your signature. It's a good general rule to follow for someone adding strong subwoofer boosts and/or listening at high volume levels. And, you seem to be doing both.

In any event, it is a pretty simple precaution to take, but you don't have to rerun Audyssey to do it. Just lower the AVR trim levels by 4.5db and 4db respectively. Then, you can raise the gain levels symmetrically, to add back about as much bass as you were listening to before. You probably added volume by ear before; you are just using your gain levels to do it now. And, you are trying to add the same amount if you can. Some people mark their starting points, on an analogue gain dial, with tape to facilitate that process.

You need to understand that your AVP isn't the real factor in driving your subwoofers. It simply needs to supply sufficient voltage to tell the subwoofers own internal amplifiers what to do. The subwoofer amplifiers need to do the real work, and some of them require higher gain levels in order to achieve max output, as noted above.

The ultimate factor in determining your subwoofers' ability to play both loudly and cleanly is the combination of subwoofer boost (through whatever combination of gain and trim you use) and master volume. It is important to recognize that both your subwoofer boost, and your master volume, put demands on your subs. At some point, you will simply run out of headroom. But, observing good gain/trim protocols can potentially help, up to the point at which you do run out.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #1157 of 1400 Old 03-09-2019, 11:38 AM
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Jerry and Mike,

I appreciate the input. New to Audyssey and warming up to the idea that I should invest the time and money in REW and a proper mic.

Mike, regarding your suggestion to reduce trims and adjust sub gain levels up by ear, I'm a bit hesitant to go that route because the gain structure is so different on the 2 Outlaw sub models. In other words, I won't know if I am raising gain levels symmetrically unless I use an SPL meter (Radio Shack digital model), which I realize is probably not super accurate.

So, what I could do is run the calibrated manual sub test tones individually, note the individual SLP meter levels, reduce the trim levels, then increase the sub gains individually to get back to the original individual SLP levels, then continue to apply the 7 dB boost for both subs in the source-specific Options-Channel Levels menu.


-
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post #1158 of 1400 Old 03-10-2019, 12:34 PM
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How about installing a free SPL app on your phone that has SLOW response and C weighting? Measure the SPL at your current settings (one sub on at a time and then the combined output) then back the AVR trim down and turn up the gain on the sub amps doing the same method. It might'nt be perfect but better than your ears for accuracy and the gain should be relative when measuring before and after...
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post #1159 of 1400 Old 03-12-2019, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adam2434 View Post
Jerry and Mike,

I appreciate the input. New to Audyssey and warming up to the idea that I should invest the time and money in REW and a proper mic.

Mike, regarding your suggestion to reduce trims and adjust sub gain levels up by ear, I'm a bit hesitant to go that route because the gain structure is so different on the 2 Outlaw sub models. In other words, I won't know if I am raising gain levels symmetrically unless I use an SPL meter (Radio Shack digital model), which I realize is probably not super accurate.

So, what I could do is run the calibrated manual sub test tones individually, note the individual SLP meter levels, reduce the trim levels, then increase the sub gains individually to get back to the original individual SLP levels, then continue to apply the 7 dB boost for both subs in the source-specific Options-Channel Levels menu.


-
Here a link for the correction table for the analog one, should be the same as the digital one;
http://diyaudioprojects.com/Testeq/R...50/33-2050.htm

This should put you in the ballpark
To be very accurate, many members around here use the REW;
Getting Started With REW: A Step-by-Step Guide


Ray
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post #1160 of 1400 Old 03-12-2019, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by brettus View Post
How about installing a free SPL app on your phone that has SLOW response and C weighting? Measure the SPL at your current settings (one sub on at a time and then the combined output) then back the AVR trim down and turn up the gain on the sub amps doing the same method. It might'nt be perfect but better than your ears for accuracy and the gain should be relative when measuring before and after...
Honestly, I cannot see an SPL from a phone been near accurate at all.
Might as well use your hears, for what sound good to you.

Radio Shack use to sell some SPL many years ago, and was very affordable.
More likely you could pick-up a use one for very cheap, since now a day most of us use an auto calibration system on our AVR/AVP.
And the Radio Shack, do have some correction table;
http://diyaudioprojects.com/Testeq/R...50/33-2050.htm


Ray

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post #1161 of 1400 Old 03-12-2019, 07:10 PM
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https://studiosixdigital.com

They used to have a free app “SPL”, pretty accurate on my iPhone 6. Take a look at their site, they even sell separate mics.

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post #1162 of 1400 Old 03-12-2019, 08:32 PM
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Got around to running REW again. Kinda quick. Anyhow, these are the results. I can post more tomorrow, but the lowdown:
2 x 12" sealed subs on front wall at 1/3 and 2/3 positions. No Audyssey. Crossover in AVR set to 80hz. The question is....how do I get these flatter? From my measuring, only solution seems to be placement....need to move them somewhere else. Anyhow, each one took 8 filters......I know, that's too many....oh, well. I did use the "Stormaudio" EQ template....seemed to work OK. Have used MiniDSP before as well....both seem to work better than the "Generic" template. Thoughts?

Left, Right and both with NO EQ


Both Without EQ and WITH EQ
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Originally Posted by legierk View Post
I am familiar with sub calibration. Theater has 4 x 18" ported subs run in two pairs with a BFD FBQ1000 for PEQ. The BFD is cool because I can EQ each pair, then run REW and EQ the combined output (4 subs) and EQ those also by "linking" some PEQ channels. This has proved effective in the theater even without delay for each sub in the BFD. Of course, Audyseey is run after the subs are sufficiently calibrated.

I have 2 sealed 12" subs in my 5.1 living room setup. They each have their own bass management within the Denon 4311 AVR. I was using an old AudioControl Richter scale to EQ them, but as the EQ is only one channel, they would be EQ'd as a pair. This was not ideal so I very recently got a Dayton Audio DSP-408. It is similiar to the miniDSP out there.

With 4 inputs and 8 outputs, I have more than enough availability for the 2 subs in the living room. It does have limitations however.

I spent quite a bit of time over the weekend messing with calibrating these two subs. I can get each one pretty flat individually. But when I combine them, the resulting output via REW fed by a UMIK-1 is all over the place. I mess with polarity of each sub individually and combined, change the delay of each sub (the DSP-408 has a max of 8ms delay per channel) finally getting the flattest output with both subs at 0 deg polarity and the nearest sub a 2ms delay.

The resulting graph is not acceptable to me though. Again, each sub is flat when EQ'd individually, but when combined, the graph is all over the place. What is going on? I didn't have this issue in the theater room. Perhaps because there are 4 subs, so room modes are better controlled. The 2 subs are doubling as stands for the front left/right speakers (this setup is also used extensively for 2 channel listening, mostly vinyl), so moving them is a last, last resort.

I know you will want a graph, but I am at work and don't have one handy. I do not think the DSP-408 will allow me to combine the outputs like the BFD does. (It does have a channel "linking" option, but it does not allow the linking of PEQ channels like the BFD, only the output channels).

Should I abandon the individual EQing and just EQ them combined (which would be done by "linking" channels one and two that I am using)? Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legierk View Post
Thanks Mike for the thorough reply. I have contemplated all you've suggested: Moving both subs to a corner and put speakers on stands, running REW after Audyssey. I even thought of just running one sub and leaving the other as furniture. LOL. I will follow up with my eventual solution. Hey, we do this because it is fun right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by legierk View Post
Got around to running REW again. Kinda quick. Anyhow, these are the results. I can post more tomorrow, but the lowdown:
2 x 12" sealed subs on front wall at 1/3 and 2/3 positions. No Audyssey. Crossover in AVR set to 80hz. The question is....how do I get these flatter? From my measuring, only solution seems to be placement....need to move them somewhere else. Anyhow, each one took 8 filters......I know, that's too many....oh, well. I did use the "Stormaudio" EQ template....seemed to work OK. Have used MiniDSP before as well....both seem to work better than the "Generic" template. Thoughts?

Left, Right and both with NO EQ


Both Without EQ and WITH EQ

Hi,

I went back to reread your earliest posts on this subject, and decided to quote them, although I left out the longer intermediate ones. I think you already know that you are going to have to experiment with alternative positions for your subs. Even then, getting slightly different (or even identical) subwoofers to produce a relatively smooth frequency response can be challenge. Sometimes we place subs where they look good, and in this case where they can function as speaker stands, and they work just fine in those locations. But, where that doesn't happen, we really need to explore other placement options.

I have seen some frequency responses where the measurements certainly didn't look perfect, but where I would not have expected any serious audible problems. But, what you are illustrating here is not a frequency response I would want to have. Other than to experiment with placement until you can get rid of the more serious nulls, I don't know what else to suggest. You may need to play with phase or distance adjustments again, once you try moving the subs to different locations, but I would start with a sub crawl to find the best location for one sub, and go from there.

If you can get to a halfway decent starting point with your frequency response, Audyssey can be more helpful, even without independent EQ (which you can always tweak later if need be). For instance, Audyssey can pull down some peaks by quite a bit, in an effort to smooth things out, as it did with your lowest frequencies. But, it can't really do anything with nulls, and you really can't either. You would just consume valuable headroom in trying, even with independent DSP.

The more that you can start with a reasonably even frequency response (even with some larger peaks and small dips) the more that Audyssey can even it out for you. And then, you can always come in afterwards, and add back a house curve if you want to, using room gain to help you with the total low-frequency headroom. But, I think you have to start with better subwoofer placement.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #1164 of 1400 Old 03-13-2019, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legierk View Post
Got around to running REW again. Kinda quick. Anyhow, these are the results. I can post more tomorrow, but the lowdown:
2 x 12" sealed subs on front wall at 1/3 and 2/3 positions. No Audyssey. Crossover in AVR set to 80hz. The question is....how do I get these flatter? From my measuring, only solution seems to be placement....need to move them somewhere else. Anyhow, each one took 8 filters......I know, that's too many....oh, well. I did use the "Stormaudio" EQ template....seemed to work OK. Have used MiniDSP before as well....both seem to work better than the "Generic" template. Thoughts?
Are you still EQ'ing the subs separately? I would still love to see a screenshot of your filters.

I agree with Mike that placement is going to be your only option to help your response. Have tried just temporarily moving the subs to the front corners to see how they measure?
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post #1165 of 1400 Old 03-13-2019, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I think you have to start with better subwoofer placement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I agree with Mike that placement is going to be your only option to help your response.
+1

Your REW graphs are begging for better sub placement...especially the nulls! In a previous home many years ago, I was where you are. And like many, I elected sub placement to be governed by aesthetics. Eventually I had to prioritize and make a decision...aesthetics or an optimal sounding system. Good luck with your decision!
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post #1166 of 1400 Old 03-13-2019, 11:42 AM
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Thank you both for the responses. (I never learned how to multi-quote efficiently).

Yeah, the whole thing has had me scratching my head. As stated before, I have 4 x 18" ported subs in the theater, and didn't have this issue at all. These things just do NOT want to play flat in their current position.

I EQ'd them together. I see now that there was really no reason to show the independent responses of each....I suppose I did it because the drivers are different in each (they used to be the same...thought I heard one of them rubbing so I replaced it with a cheaper driver. Then I find out I had a really bad speaker cable on that sub, so the original driver may not be bad after all…..that is another story). The Dayton Classic Sub driver does not have the lowend extension of the Dayton HF sub, as seen in the graph.

I have not tried other positions yet. That was a last, last last resort. I believe I am there now however. I can get screenshots of everything, it just makes the calibration process longer (and inconveniences the wife considerably).

Keep in mind, I am letting REW determine my filters and just manually plugging them into the DSP. I have though about just looking at the graph and coming up with my own filters, but I seriously doubt I would be able to have the precision that REW does. Did the author of REW ever respond as to whether he (they?) will integrate the Dayton DSP-408 into the software? One of the last things I did was just to try to import a MiniDSP (and StormAudio) filter set into the 408. LOL. I opened each TEXT file, and they are totally different. The Dayton TEXT file is totally gibberish, while the others have values that are easily recognizable. At any rate, that was me just goofing off.

Let me move the subs and see what happens and I will report back. Thanks again.
Keith
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post #1167 of 1400 Old 03-13-2019, 05:01 PM
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Hey everyone, sorry for throwing a random post among such great conversation. New avr, and have been going nuts to why audyssey XT-32 has been so uncooperative compared to my XT version in my old Integra.

After five attempts the other day and close to ten today i was loosing my mind why even after post calibration sub gain boost of 15DB's and 3DB trim boost there was almost nothing even at -8MV (i'm not using dynamic EQ). I had been trying to follow the sub level recommendation of 77DB or less to stay in the green before sweeps. This returned trim at -7, but i could barely hear anything, i mean anything.

I dont know if anyone else has experienced this but, the rumble in the subs, audyssey provides while level matching to get in the "green" is considerably louder to my ears than the cooresponding auydyssey sweep in the subs,, (is that normal?). The post calibration also has been reflecting this with anemic results.

I had been reducing Funk trim to -20DB to touch "green" before sweeps, no amount of gain or trim boost could liven things up much. Ended up doing a Marantz factory reset. This time i said F&^% it i'm going to add 5DB's to the sub gain pre audyssey so set it at -15 instead of -20, this brought me into the red at about 83DB's. Ran audyssey sub sweeps sounded more like i have been used to as before they were so quiet i felt the mic cant be able to tune to full potential.

I always use the first two minutes of "Life" as demo material to see where i'm at. Prior to the reset and hotter sub gain even with all the post sub gain boost and trim boost at -8MV i barely pulled 1amp with my subs. "After the last attempt,,,, good lord,,, as night and day as one could experience.

Post audyssey set trim almost maxed out at -11.5, so i bumped it 5db hot, and bumped sub gain to -5DB (10 db hot). Same scene was pulling 5 to 6 amps and the back window 28' away that has already had 5" of seal blown out was been tested again. Almost to much bass at that MV, kind of uncomfortable but in a good way.

So i guess (for me) putting sub gain into the red made all the difference by a bunch. No need for dynamic EQ.

Before i'm roasted for not using REW yet i dont want a bad graph to trigger my OCD when my ears are telling me "good to go" lol.

Edit

Following up on our conversation Mike,, i reread the cascading X-overs and will see how it goes.
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post #1168 of 1400 Old 03-13-2019, 06:32 PM
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Hi Guys,

I'm thinking of experimenting with DEQ off for movies and understand we need to boost the bass but was wondering how the other channels react with it off and do they need to be adjusted at say a volume of -10.
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post #1169 of 1400 Old 03-13-2019, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legierk View Post
Thank you both for the responses. (I never learned how to multi-quote efficiently).

Yeah, the whole thing has had me scratching my head. As stated before, I have 4 x 18" ported subs in the theater, and didn't have this issue at all. These things just do NOT want to play flat in their current position.

I EQ'd them together. I see now that there was really no reason to show the independent responses of each....I suppose I did it because the drivers are different in each (they used to be the same...thought I heard one of them rubbing so I replaced it with a cheaper driver. Then I find out I had a really bad speaker cable on that sub, so the original driver may not be bad after all…..that is another story). The Dayton Classic Sub driver does not have the lowend extension of the Dayton HF sub, as seen in the graph.

I have not tried other positions yet. That was a last, last last resort. I believe I am there now however. I can get screenshots of everything, it just makes the calibration process longer (and inconveniences the wife considerably).

Keep in mind, I am letting REW determine my filters and just manually plugging them into the DSP. I have though about just looking at the graph and coming up with my own filters, but I seriously doubt I would be able to have the precision that REW does. Did the author of REW ever respond as to whether he (they?) will integrate the Dayton DSP-408 into the software? One of the last things I did was just to try to import a MiniDSP (and StormAudio) filter set into the 408. LOL. I opened each TEXT file, and they are totally different. The Dayton TEXT file is totally gibberish, while the others have values that are easily recognizable. At any rate, that was me just goofing off.

Let me move the subs and see what happens and I will report back. Thanks again.
Keith
Hi Keith

Just to go off subject for this post, I will try to help a little for doing multi-quote
Once sign in, you will see different option at the bottom of the post (Edit, Quote, Multi-Quote and Quick Reply).
All is needed to do, is click on the Multi-Quote you want to reply (in order of them). Then for last one Quote.
From there you go past [/quote], for each one (multi-quote, and the last quote) you want to response to. Left Click on your mouse, Click "Enter". Put your comments, and so on for each Quote and repeat the process for all of them.

Become easy after a few practice run

Now back to the subject at hand.


Ray
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post #1170 of 1400 Old 03-14-2019, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigzee3 View Post
Hi Guys,

I'm thinking of experimenting with DEQ off for movies and understand we need to boost the bass but was wondering how the other channels react with it off and do they need to be adjusted at say a volume of -10.

Hi Zelko,

There is no single right answer to your question. It's just a matter of what you hear, and what you prefer. DEQ is a little bit complicated in its action. It is adding less bass to the regular channels than it is adding to the subwoofers, and it is actually boosting the treble a little in the regular channels. You can read more about its specific action in Section V-A of the Guide.

My advice would be to listen with it off for a while, add some subwoofer boost until it sounds right, and just see what you think. At a master volume of -10, DEQ is not doing nearly as much to change your sound as it would be doing at a lower volume level. So, you may not need to do too much in the way of compensatory adjustments, if you turn it off.

One other thing that you may enjoy experimenting with, though, is the tone controls. They are available to you only when DEQ is turned off, and they only affect your front speakers. You could try adding a little bass to your front speakers if you wanted to. Other than the LFE channel (played only be the subwoofers) the front speakers would be likely to carry more bass than any other channels. And, you can also experiment with your treble control, if you like, to slightly adjust the high-frequencies either upward or downward.

I far prefer being able to add my own subwoofer boosts, and to adjust my tone controls, in order to achieve the sound qualities I want for a particular listening session, or for a particular program, as opposed to relying on an automated algorithm to make the adjustments for me. For the most part, once I found settings I liked for the tone controls, I leave them there, and mostly just adjust the subwoofer volume when I need to. But, as with most things in audio, the use of DEQ versus independent sub boosts and tone control adjustments, is strictly a YMMV issue.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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