Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences - Page 40 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1171 of 1344 Old 03-14-2019, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Zelko,

There is no single right answer to your question. It's just a matter of what you hear, and what you prefer. DEQ is a little bit complicated in its action. It is adding less bass to the regular channels than it is adding to the subwoofers, and it is actually boosting the treble a little in the regular channels. You can read more about its specific action in Section V-A of the Guide.

My advice would be to listen with it off for a while, add some subwoofer boost until it sounds right, and just see what you think. At a master volume of -10, DEQ is not doing nearly as much to change your sound as it would be doing at a lower volume level. So, you may not need to do too much in the way of compensatory adjustments, if you turn it off.

One other thing that you may enjoy experimenting with, though, is the tone controls. They are available to you only when DEQ is turned off, and they only affect your front speakers. You could try adding a little bass to your front speakers if you wanted to. Other than the LFE channel (played only be the subwoofers) the front speakers would be likely to carry more bass than any other channels. And, you can also experiment with your treble control, if you like, to slightly adjust the high-frequencies either upward or downward.

I far prefer being able to add my own subwoofer boosts, and to adjust my tone controls, in order to achieve the sound qualities I want for a particular listening session, or for a particular program, as opposed to relying on an automated algorithm to make the adjustments for me. For the most part, once I found settings I liked for the tone controls, I leave them there, and mostly just adjust the subwoofer volume when I need to. But, as with most things in audio, the use of DEQ versus independent sub boosts and tone control adjustments, is strictly a YMMV issue.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks Mike,

Totally agree in the end it is personal preference but it doesn't hurt to get an expert starting point. Before I read your email I popped in Transformers 2 and turned DEQ off and added a few extra db to try and match what DEQ and my usual boost at -10 would do. I didn't mess with any other channels and no tone controls. At -10 I did notice the bass a touch cleaner or should I say less aggressive. Fronts and center all sounded clean but the rears I noticed where a bit lower although it I feel is hard to judge, how do we really know how loud the rears are supposed to be in certain scenes anyway and only more view with DEQ off could you make a better judgement. I guess it might be different at lower volumes but I don't normally go lower than -15 for my movie viewing and that's only when the soundtrack is really loud. I will definitely run it like this for a while and see how we go. On a side note going thru the guide you said that turning up bass after calibration with sub gain or AVR trim is ok to do. What I did notice is when adding an extra 3-4db after Audyssey via the sub gain instead of the AVR it did sound a bit more robust. Guessing it had to do with the extra power the sub would have over the AVR?. Thanks as always for your great advice.
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post #1172 of 1344 Old 03-14-2019, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Zelko,

There is no single right answer to your question. It's just a matter of what you hear, and what you prefer. DEQ is a little bit complicated in its action. It is adding less bass to the regular channels than it is adding to the subwoofers, and it is actually boosting the treble a little in the regular channels. You can read more about its specific action in Section V-A of the Guide.

My advice would be to listen with it off for a while, add some subwoofer boost until it sounds right, and just see what you think. At a master volume of -10, DEQ is not doing nearly as much to change your sound as it would be doing at a lower volume level. So, you may not need to do too much in the way of compensatory adjustments, if you turn it off.

One other thing that you may enjoy experimenting with, though, is the tone controls. They are available to you only when DEQ is turned off, and they only affect your front speakers. You could try adding a little bass to your front speakers if you wanted to. Other than the LFE channel (played only be the subwoofers) the front speakers would be likely to carry more bass than any other channels. And, you can also experiment with your treble control, if you like, to slightly adjust the high-frequencies either upward or downward.

I far prefer being able to add my own subwoofer boosts, and to adjust my tone controls, in order to achieve the sound qualities I want for a particular listening session, or for a particular program, as opposed to relying on an automated algorithm to make the adjustments for me. For the most part, once I found settings I liked for the tone controls, I leave them there, and mostly just adjust the subwoofer volume when I need to. But, as with most things in audio, the use of DEQ versus independent sub boosts and tone control adjustments, is strictly a YMMV issue.

Regards,
Mike
+1

The reason my DEQ is turned off.
Than again, it is a matter of preference for each individual the way it sound in there room. But you already know that
Some like it On, and some like it Off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigzee3 View Post
Hi Guys,

I'm thinking of experimenting with DEQ off for movies and understand we need to boost the bass but was wondering how the other channels react with it off and do they need to be adjusted at say a volume of -10.
Just to make your life easier, the section Mike was speaking about the DEQ can be found here;
V-A: Dynamic EQ


Ray
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post #1173 of 1344 Old 03-15-2019, 11:18 AM
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I'm off work today and the wife is out running around,so I figured I would look into trying to work on my subs a little. The only issue I have is that one of my subs sits in a corner of my room. I've had a "Rattle" noise that's been bothering me for a while,so I figured why not see what I can do while I have the time. Long story short I kept moving that particular sub out from the corner that it sits in to try and get rid of the Rattle as much as I can. I pulled the sub out from the corner until the rattling was pretty much gone. I was so excited! It was in a place that I knew it couldn't stay though,so I kept moving it back towards the corner until it was the best spot that I could deal with it between the noise and placement. Worked out better than I hoped for! A lot less rattling and I was able to turn the volume up on the sub just a little more for more bass in my room. I've always had good bass in my room it was just that rattling noise that would bother me. This is one of my favorite threads,I use the Cascading Crossover,and everything is sounding great. Just felt like sharing that tidbit of experience with you guys,and it just shows that moving A Sub A little can make a Huge Difference. It seems to me on this forum that too many people just take someone's word for granted and "sets and forgets" without trying things for themselves. No two rooms are the same,you have to take the time and work with the knowledge that you gain! Thank you for So much knowledge on this thread @mthomas47 and @darthray .
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post #1174 of 1344 Old 03-15-2019, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by skypop View Post
I'm off work today and the wife is out running around,so I figured I would look into trying to work on my subs a little. The only issue I have is that one of my subs sits in a corner of my room. I've had a "Rattle" noise that's been bothering me for a while,so I figured why not see what I can do while I have the time. Long story short I kept moving that particular sub out from the corner that it sits in to try and get rid of the Rattle as much as I can. I pulled the sub out from the corner until the rattling was pretty much gone. I was so excited! It was in a place that I knew it couldn't stay though,so I kept moving it back towards the corner until it was the best spot that I could deal with it between the noise and placement. Worked out better than I hoped for! A lot less rattling and I was able to turn the volume up on the sub just a little more for more bass in my room. I've always had good bass in my room it was just that rattling noise that would bother me. This is one of my favorite threads,I use the Cascading Crossover,and everything is sounding great. Just felt like sharing that tidbit of experience with you guys,and it just shows that moving A Sub A little can make a Huge Difference. It seems to me on this forum that too many people just take someone's word for granted and "sets and forgets" without trying things for themselves. No two rooms are the same,you have to take the time and work with the knowledge that you gain! Thank you for So much knowledge on this thread @mthomas47 and @darthray.
Glad to see Mike and I did help you
And also very glad you took the time, to reply with your finding and having your rattle problem solve

I have learn a lot from Mike Guide, and still learning as I go through life from him and some others.
As you said yourself, helping your self is the best way to learn. And Thank You for mention-it

If in the future you decide to move your sub/s into a different position, and have a new rattle problem.
Here's few things that have learn for my room, in case you might need this info.

- The first thing I do, is to repeat the scene of a movie/ or the test disk frequency where it occur.
Walk around the room where it seem to come from
Put some pressure on the wall/ceiling until, I found the culprit
If a rattle stop, mark the spot and put a dry wall screw to see if it fix the problem (if it did, just putty and paint is left do do).
-If all fail, you need to think outside the box
I once thought it was my Tower left woofer was the culprit, turn out it was a door knob near by. That the screws got loose.
Another one, was a movie poster. While I thought it Left surround speaker mount.

As you see, finding a rattling problem. Can be sometime easy, and other time very difficult to pin point


Ray
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post #1175 of 1344 Old 03-15-2019, 06:23 PM
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I moved my subs as recommended. Keeping with the WAF, I moved them essentially about 1.5' to the left and right from where they were originally, under the main speakers. I put the main speakers on stands. Ran some more REW sweeps and re-did my PEQ for the subs. Here goes:

Subs AFTER PEQ:


Looks pretty good to me. I know you guys wanted to see the filters. I will get them, but forgot to send from laptop to my office computer, so it'll wait until next time. I ended up using 8 filters per sub, balanced the outputs, and the right sub ended up being 180 out of phase for best freq response. I think the graph looks pretty good. I ran many measurements, and level matched the subs before and after PEQ, but always EQ'd them both together.

Next I ran the Left and Right mains in DIRECT mode which is no EQ and no subs for a baseline (I realize this is a sub forum, but I think there are some Audyssey guys snooping around here too..)


Then I changed the AVR to Stereo, which reincorporates the subs (freshly calibrated) with the mains....the crossover was set at 100hz as Audyssey had previously done on my last calibration (a week ago). Audyssey is OFF:



At this point I am thinking "Heck yeah!". Looking pretty good. I can live with this. So now I go to run Audyssey. I use all 8 positions (always) and used a pretty tight mic placement technique (about 1' diameter circle at MLP). Audyssey ran with no hickups, and re-set the crossover for the mains at 90hz. No problem.

So now I decide for giggles I will run a few more sweeps to see how much flatter Audyssey got it. Yes, my UMIK mic was moved a little, but just a little. It was essentially in the same spot....not enough for me to even notice visually. This is the result:

Audyssey Reference Left and Right with subs:


Audyssey Flat Left and Right with subs:


Not great, but OK.

Here's where it gets interesting. I turned Audyssey off, and re-ran the Left and Right speakers with the subs just to see if anything had changed. Audyssey did have me change to sub outputs to level match them but it ended up being no more than 2db on the right sub. Other than that, the aforementioned crossover changed from 100hz to 90hz and the mic position changed maybe 2 inches.

Left channel subs, no Audyssey, before and after running Audyssey (Green is before I ran Audyssey, Red is after running Audyssey, but Audyssey is OFF for BOTH measurements):


Right channel, same configuration:


Finally I just changed the graph to see what happened to the subs response.



I put on a record and was unimpressed. I put on a different record (recording quality varies greatly) and again, no wow factor. I boosted both subs and equal amount via the AVR. (It had them at -10db L and -2db R even though I level matched them with REW and the PEQ before I ran Audyssey....they should have been closer than that.

After pumping the subs up a few db, started to sound OK, but still I am left scratching my head a little. I can really hear the peak Audyssey through in around 1khz (and again, I realize this is a sub forum). Wonder why Audyssey took a relatively flat frequency response and jacked it all up?

Oh well. This is a fun hobby, but sometimes things are just weird. I have not given up the fight. I need to listen to some reference recordings to really evaluate what may be happening here.

PS: I decided to break out my trusty old Radio Shack SPL meter to check the channel levels. They were all pretty good but ended up lowering the center by 2db and RAISING the left sub from -10db to -3db! Now, why would Audyssey have the sub levels so far off? Maybe it's because I have one of them 180 deg out of phase? Hmmm....anyhow, it sounds better with the subs cranked up, but not sure why I would have to do that. I may experiment with a different power amp on the subs. Shouldn't make a difference, but at this point, I don't trust anything.
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post #1176 of 1344 Old 03-15-2019, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legierk View Post
I moved my subs as recommended. Keeping with the WAF, I moved them essentially about 1.5' to the left and right from where they were originally, under the main speakers. I put the main speakers on stands. Ran some more REW sweeps and re-did my PEQ for the subs. Here goes:

Subs AFTER PEQ:


Looks pretty good to me. I know you guys wanted to see the filters. I will get them, but forgot to send from laptop to my office computer, so it'll wait until next time. I ended up using 8 filters per sub, balanced the outputs, and the right sub ended up being 180 out of phase for best freq response. I think the graph looks pretty good. I ran many measurements, and level matched the subs before and after PEQ, but always EQ'd them both together.

Next I ran the Left and Right mains in DIRECT mode which is no EQ and no subs for a baseline (I realize this is a sub forum, but I think there are some Audyssey guys snooping around here too..)


Then I changed the AVR to Stereo, which reincorporates the subs (freshly calibrated) with the mains....the crossover was set at 100hz as Audyssey had previously done on my last calibration (a week ago). Audyssey is OFF:



At this point I am thinking "Heck yeah!". Looking pretty good. I can live with this. So now I go to run Audyssey. I use all 8 positions (always) and used a pretty tight mic placement technique (about 1' diameter circle at MLP). Audyssey ran with no hickups, and re-set the crossover for the mains at 90hz. No problem.

So now I decide for giggles I will run a few more sweeps to see how much flatter Audyssey got it. Yes, my UMIK mic was moved a little, but just a little. It was essentially in the same spot....not enough for me to even notice visually. This is the result:

Audyssey Reference Left and Right with subs:


Audyssey Flat Left and Right with subs:


Not great, but OK.

Here's where it gets interesting. I turned Audyssey off, and re-ran the Left and Right speakers with the subs just to see if anything had changed. Audyssey did have me change to sub outputs to level match them but it ended up being no more than 2db on the right sub. Other than that, the aforementioned crossover changed from 100hz to 90hz and the mic position changed maybe 2 inches.

Left channel subs, no Audyssey, before and after running Audyssey (Green is before I ran Audyssey, Red is after running Audyssey, but Audyssey is OFF for BOTH measurements):


Right channel, same configuration:


Finally I just changed the graph to see what happened to the subs response.



I put on a record and was unimpressed. I put on a different record (recording quality varies greatly) and again, no wow factor. I boosted both subs and equal amount via the AVR. (It had them at -10db L and -2db R even though I level matched them with REW and the PEQ before I ran Audyssey....they should have been closer than that.

After pumping the subs up a few db, started to sound OK, but still I am left scratching my head a little. I can really hear the peak Audyssey through in around 1khz (and again, I realize this is a sub forum). Wonder why Audyssey took a relatively flat frequency response and jacked it all up?

Oh well. This is a fun hobby, but sometimes things are just weird. I have not given up the fight. I need to listen to some reference recordings to really evaluate what may be happening here.

PS: I decided to break out my trusty old Radio Shack SPL meter to check the channel levels. They were all pretty good but ended up lowering the center by 2db and RAISING the left sub from -10db to -3db! Now, why would Audyssey have the sub levels so far off? Maybe it's because I have one of them 180 deg out of phase? Hmmm....anyhow, it sounds better with the subs cranked up, but not sure why I would have to do that. I may experiment with a different power amp on the subs. Shouldn't make a difference, but at this point, I don't trust anything.
First Thanks for all those detail graph

Your first one without the Audyssey engage, was very good to me. Look like +/-4 dB flat using the REW measuring mic.
Once the Audyssey was measure and engage, it seem the to have went for a worst result
And do not have an answer for this one

The only thing I can think about, if you use a Audissey Multi-EQ. It has a lot less filters capacity than one like XT32.
Just a shot in the dark, since less filters would result in a lesser refinement of the sub response.


Ray
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post #1177 of 1344 Old 03-15-2019, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post

The only thing I can think about, if you use a Audissey Multi-EQ. It has a lot less filters capacity than one like XT32.
Just a shot in the dark, since less filters would result in a lesser refinement of the sub response.


Ray
Thanks for that Ray. The AVR is a Denon 4311 with XT-32 and 2 sub outputs. My next move may be to stack the subs together where the right sub is currently, in the corner. Just treat them as one 2 x 12 sealed sub, in other words. What Audyssey did to the main speakers though is baffling. I mean, how can the frequency response change that much when Audyssey is OFF on both measurements. The only thing that changed was the crossover point (from 100hz to 90hz)....but the response is different across the spectrum. Very odd.
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post #1178 of 1344 Old 03-15-2019, 08:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for that Ray. The AVR is a Denon 4311 with XT-32 and 2 sub outputs. My next move may be to stack the subs together where the right sub is currently, in the corner. Just treat them as one 2 x 12 sealed sub, in other words. What Audyssey did to the main speakers though is baffling. I mean, how can the frequency response change that much when Audyssey is OFF on both measurements. The only thing that changed was the crossover point (from 100hz to 90hz)....but the response is different across the spectrum. Very odd.

Hi,

If I were you, I would step back a pace and read a little more about how Audyssey works. Section II of the Guide will help you with that, as will the Cliff Notes at the very beginning of the Guide. Your subs will always sound relatively softer, after an Audyssey calibration. That is because Audyssey level-matches all of the channels, and we don't hear low-frequencies as well as those in our normal hearing range. So, we turn-up our subs, post-Audyssey, especially at below Reference volume levels.

The other thing that I think is happening here is that you are setting PEQ filters before running Audyssey, and then Audyssey is undoing some of what you have done and setting its own competing filters. But you don't want the two to compete with each other. That is likely to result in a mess.

You need to start with the best locations you can find for your subs. That is the most important thing. If that means they are stacked in a corner, so be it. Then, once you have a fairly good native frequency response (without any independent PEQ) you need to run Audyssey and see what it can do for you. Don't forget to turn-up your subwoofer volume, as suggested in the Guide.

After all that, if and only if, there is something specific you want to try to fix with a filter of your own, apply it post-Audyssey. What you don't want is the PEQ you apply to compete with what Audyssey is trying to do. Let Audyssey try to do its job, and then put a final polish on the FR if you really need to. At most one or two filters should be necessary at that point--perhaps to bring down a peak you can hear, or to pull up a dip that is wide enough to concern you.

To reiterate the most important points here, the key to a good frequency response is to start with good subwoofer placement. EQ, whether independently applied, or through an automated algorithm, is not a panacea. You want to start with the best FR you can get, then run Audyssey, and then just apply a little polish if it's needed. Or, if you really like applying your own filters, just do that and leave Audyssey alone. Let it calibrate your channels for you and then just turn it off. Doing things the way you did them is almost certain to have a bad result, in my opinion.

I hope this helps! Some of this stuff takes a little effort to get right, but you clearly enjoy the process. So, stay with it, but in a little more strategic way.

Regards,
Mike


Incidentally, when you take UMIK measurements in one location, that won't really replicate what you are actually hearing or what Audyssey is measuring. Our hearing is binaural, meaning that both ears work together and our brains sort it out. You really need to take several measurements around your head, and let REW average the results for you. That will give you a much truer picture of your frequency response.

Also, small deviations in mic position will be much more perceptible for higher frequencies, due to all of the surface reflections in the room. Moving the mic just a little will yield a different result. That is why Audyssey has you use 8 mic positions, which it then averages, with its own system of fuzzy-logic weighting.
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #1179 of 1344 Old 03-16-2019, 06:42 AM
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Mike,
I have actually never thought of running Audyssey first, THEN fine tuning the subs with the PEQ. I always assumed that if I had everything pretty smoothed out first, Audyssey would have less to do! LOL. I will try this sometime this weekend.

WRT sub placement, I also thought that spreading the subs out would reduce room modes....has always worked in the past. These 2 12" subs have been a bear to work with though. Co-locating them may be my best option at this point, as placement options are very limited.

Also, next time I have everything hooked up, I will run some sweeps with REW and move the mic a little to see what happens, especially with the subs. I know it shouldn't change that much, but just out of curiosity.

Finally, I can't help but think the Dayton PEQ may have some (negative) influence on all this. It works, but it is the first time I have used one, and it is also the first time I have had a horrible time getting things ironed out. I could bring back my old AudioControl Richter Scale which is a crude 7 band graphic sub EQ. It is effective even though it is a bit limited however.

Thanks for the tutorials and patience.
Keith
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post #1180 of 1344 Old 03-16-2019, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Mike,
I have actually never thought of running Audyssey first, THEN fine tuning the subs with the PEQ. I always assumed that if I had everything pretty smoothed out first, Audyssey would have less to do! LOL. I will try this sometime this weekend.

WRT sub placement, I also thought that spreading the subs out would reduce room modes....has always worked in the past. These 2 12" subs have been a bear to work with though. Co-locating them may be my best option at this point, as placement options are very limited.

Also, next time I have everything hooked up, I will run some sweeps with REW and move the mic a little to see what happens, especially with the subs. I know it shouldn't change that much, but just out of curiosity.

Finally, I can't help but think the Dayton PEQ may have some (negative) influence on all this. It works, but it is the first time I have used one, and it is also the first time I have had a horrible time getting things ironed out. I could bring back my old AudioControl Richter Scale which is a crude 7 band graphic sub EQ. It is effective even though it is a bit limited however.

Thanks for the tutorials and patience.
Keith


Hi Keith,

You are very welcome! I really don't think that there are any hard-and-fast rules that we can follow for most of what we are discussing. For instance, spreading subwoofers further apart may allow them to engage room modes differently, and that may improve the overall frequency response. But, it can't be a random process of placement, unless we just happen to get lucky. We have to try moving the subs to different locations, and then listen/measure to see what happens when we move them to those different locations.

That process usually starts with a sub crawl to pick the best location for one sub, and then trial-and-error to find a location for the second subwoofer that integrates well with the first one. That may be on the same wall, or on different walls--either front/back, or on side walls, or diagonal corners, or whatever.

There are suggestions for potential subwoofer locations in Section VIII-E, but they are just suggestions. It's still trial-and-error to figure out what works in a particular room, with a pair (or more than a pair) of particular subs. Where placement opportunities are extremely limited, putting the subs together can be a viable option, as long as that location has an inherently good frequency response. As noted in the earlier post, starting with an inherently good frequency response, before attempting any room EQ, is the real key.

There aren't any hard-and-fast rules about when or how to use something like your Dayton, or a miniDSP, either. Sometimes, where automated room correction (such as Audyssey) can't fix a problem, it can be useful to use independent PEQ first. But, that would generally apply to a single issue in a limited area of the frequency response. You wouldn't want to attempt full bandwidth EQ for your subwoofers, and to then run Audyssey. The filters set in the two separate instances would almost certainly be counterproductive.

Again, speaking generally, I would always try to find out what Audyssey could do for me first, and then if necessary, polish the result afterwards. A lot of time and effort went into the development of the Audyssey software program, and XT-32 is usually pretty effective at EQing subwoofers. Some very knowledgeable users find that they can get even better results by making a few adjustments to the FR before running Audyssey. But, they discovered that through informed experimentation, by trying it both ways, and it would typically be a matter of fixing some specific problem that Audyssey couldn't handle.

Most people will probably do much better just letting the automated room EQ help them with the low-frequency response. Then, if there is a problem at the crossover to the center channel, or something like that, some additional actions can be taken. This is what I would recommend for almost everyone who doesn't have a fairly significant level of expertise in this area, or who hasn't already done a lot of experimentation with his room.

Regards,
Mike
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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #1181 of 1344 Old 03-16-2019, 05:52 PM
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@legierk

As you can see Mike, @mthomas47 has a lot more knowledge than me when it come to Sub/s and Audyssey

In my previous post to you (1176). I was assuming you had the Audyissey Multi-EQ as quote below from my post;
"The only thing I can think about, if you use a Audissey Multi-EQ. It has a lot less filters capacity than one like XT32.
Just a shot in the dark, since less filters would result in a lesser refinement of the sub response."

Since you do have the XT32, I would re-read Mike previous posts (1178 & 1180) a few times. And taking a look at those sections he mention.
Lots of good information's!
While I knew the XT32 is a very elaborate calibration system, it never cross my mind, that you ran the REW before the Audyissey calibration system.


Ray

P.S. added a couple quick link for you for those sections, to find them faster.
And did not bother quoting the Cliff notes, since they are at the very beginning of the Guide;
Section II: Audio System Calibration and Subwoofer Levels:
VIII-E: Subwoofer Placement in a Room:
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
@legierk

As you can see Mike, @mthomas47 has a lot more knowledge than me when it come to Sub/s and Audyssey

In my previous post to you (1176). I was assuming you had the Audyissey Multi-EQ as quote below from my post;
"The only thing I can think about, if you use a Audissey Multi-EQ. It has a lot less filters capacity than one like XT32.
Just a shot in the dark, since less filters would result in a lesser refinement of the sub response."

Since you do have the XT32, I would re-read Mike previous posts (1178 & 1180) a few times. And taking a look at those sections he mention.
Lots of good information's!
While I knew the XT32 is a very elaborate calibration system, it never cross my mind, that you ran the REW before the Audyissey calibration system.


Ray

P.S. added a couple quick link for you for those sections, to find them faster.
And did not bother quoting the Cliff notes, since they are at the very beginning of the Guide;
Section II: Audio System Calibration and Subwoofer Levels:
VIII-E: Subwoofer Placement in a Room:


Thanks Darth, but we are all learning from each other, all of the time! Ed Mullen helped me to understand something better the other day, and not for the first time. I would like to think that I learn something new or understand something better, about this hobby of ours, every week.
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
....

I would like to think that I learn something new or understand something better, about this hobby of ours, every week.
Especially in this thread! I've learned and came to understand a lot since I've stumbled upon this thread!
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post #1184 of 1344 Old 03-17-2019, 03:38 PM
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Glad to see Mike and I did help you
And also very glad you took the time, to reply with your finding and having your rattle problem solve

I have learn a lot from Mike Guide, and still learning as I go through life from him and some others.
As you said yourself, helping your self is the best way to learn. And Thank You for mention-it

If in the future you decide to move your sub/s into a different position, and have a new rattle problem.
Here's few things that have learn for my room, in case you might need this info.

- The first thing I do, is to repeat the scene of a movie/ or the test disk frequency where it occur.
Walk around the room where it seem to come from
Put some pressure on the wall/ceiling until, I found the culprit
If a rattle stop, mark the spot and put a dry wall screw to see if it fix the problem (if it did, just putty and paint is left do do).
-If all fail, you need to think outside the box
I once thought it was my Tower left woofer was the culprit, turn out it was a door knob near by. That the screws got loose.
Another one, was a movie poster. While I thought it Left surround speaker mount.

As you see, finding a rattling problem. Can be sometime easy, and other time very difficult to pin point


Ray
Update to my rattling issue,I located the main culprit,it was the Hihat light a few feet from the corner where the sub is. The ring of the light had enough play in it that it rattled when I watched movies at the "She's not home" levels 😂. The wall adjacent to the sub also had a vibration noise that I was able to locate and mark in order to put a few sheetrock screws in this week. I used the John Wick Club Scene to play over and over until I found the culprits. Than I used the Black Hole scene from Interstellar,everything sounds much better now,only noise is the wall that needs extra screws but that is not that bad. Almost done with chasing rattles!
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Originally Posted by jconjason View Post
Especially in this thread! I've learned and came to understand a lot since I've stumbled upon this thread!
+1
I have learn more since that thread existed, than a lot of years in audio

Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Thanks Darth, but we are all learning from each other, all of the time! Ed Mullen helped me to understand something better the other day, and not for the first time. I would like to think that I learn something new or understand something better, about this hobby of ours, every week.
So true Mike
And also notice that you and I, and some others. Are not afraid to say, we did learn something new from another member.
In my book, a very good quality in life.


Ray
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post #1186 of 1344 Old 03-17-2019, 05:29 PM
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Update to my rattling issue,I located the main culprit,it was the Hihat light a few feet from the corner where the sub is. The ring of the light had enough play in it that it rattled when I watched movies at the "She's not home" levels 😂. The wall adjacent to the sub also had a vibration noise that I was able to locate and mark in order to put a few sheetrock screws in this week. I used the John Wick Club Scene to play over and over until I found the culprits. Than I used the Black Hole scene from Interstellar,everything sounds much better now,only noise is the wall that needs extra screws but that is not that bad. Almost done with chasing rattles!
I bet you a nickel ($0.05, in Canada), this one was fun to figure out

Just one more word of advice.
Make sure before putting those sheetrock screws, that some pressure remedy the problem for sure.
Since once done, extra screws won't hurt. But will involve some putty, and paint matching your existing one.


Ray

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post #1187 of 1344 Old 03-17-2019, 06:34 PM
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I bet you a nickel ($0.05, in Canada), this one was fun to figure out

Just one more word of advice.
Make sure before putting those sheetrock screws, that some pressure remedy the problem for sure.
Since once done, extra screws won't hurt. But will involve some putty, and paint matching your existing one.


Ray
I already put pressure on the wall while the scene was playing and the noise stopped, so its just a matter of putting a few screws in a wall. Maybe tomorrow after work but definitely by the end of the week.
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post #1188 of 1344 Old 03-18-2019, 11:20 AM
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I ended up using 8 filters per sub, balanced the outputs, and the right sub ended up being 180 out of phase for best freq response.
Since you are using XT32 with SubEQ HT, there is no need to adjust phase. Audyssey will adjust the distance setting for each sub so that they are in-phase.


Quote:
Here's where it gets interesting. I turned Audyssey off, and re-ran the Left and Right speakers with the subs just to see if anything had changed. Audyssey did have me change to sub outputs to level match them but it ended up being no more than 2db on the right sub. Other than that, the aforementioned crossover changed from 100hz to 90hz and the mic position changed maybe 2 inches.
Your sub distance settings are probably all out of whack because you had one sub inverted. Set both subs to "0" phase, bypass all EQ filters, re-run Audyssey and measure. Post up those measurements.
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post #1189 of 1344 Old 03-18-2019, 04:42 PM
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Since you are using XT32 with SubEQ HT, there is no need to adjust phase. Audyssey will adjust the distance setting for each sub so that they are in-phase.

Your sub distance settings are probably all out of whack because you had one sub inverted. Set both subs to "0" phase, bypass all EQ filters, re-run Audyssey and measure. Post up those measurements.
Thanks Alan. Yep, I am gonna bypass (disable) PEQ for subs and re-run Audyssey. THEN I will break out REW and check on things. It will most likely be towards the weekend. My days are pretty full. Thanks for the continued assistance. Keith
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
If in the future you decide to move your sub/s into a different position, and have a new rattle problem.
Here's few things that have learn for my room, in case you might need this info.

- The first thing I do, is to repeat the scene of a movie/ or the test disk frequency where it occur.
Walk around the room where it seem to come from
REW's generator function is very useful for this.
Michael

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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Don't guess, measure: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...l#post22789786
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post #1191 of 1344 Old 03-29-2019, 07:49 PM
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Well it has been almost 2 weeks, so sorry I have been away (I really thought there would have been many more posts since I last visited). Last weekend, I did a recal on the living room setup. This time, however, I ran Audyssey FIRST. Of course, I first bypassed all PEQ and levels in the subs' DSP. Audyssey did it's thing, and everything sounded pretty darn good. Then I broke out REW to see what was happening, and the subs were really flat from 80hz (the cutoff that I set after Audyssey had set the mains at 40hz) to 40hz on the subs. At about 40hz, they rolled off gently, with a bump at 30hz. I then used the PEQ to eq both subs together to flatten it out from 40hz - 20hz. Now the subs are really flat. I then leveled the Audyssey (AVR) sub levels to -8 each, and recalibrated the subs using REW, and the PEQ level controls. This way, I have "more" room to boost things if need be, although everything is sounding very full and I haven't had the need to raise the levels this past week.

Thanks to everyone here for the tips. I think, after reflection, that I really got used to the bass in the theater room with 4 x 18" ported subs. I was expecting the same level of performance from 2 x 12" sealed subs in the living room, and now I know that that was just unrealistic.
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They're sealed subs. You just need to add a house curve. You can't do that with ported.
Michael

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #1193 of 1344 Old 03-30-2019, 05:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by legierk View Post
Well it has been almost 2 weeks, so sorry I have been away (I really thought there would have been many more posts since I last visited). Last weekend, I did a recal on the living room setup. This time, however, I ran Audyssey FIRST. Of course, I first bypassed all PEQ and levels in the subs' DSP. Audyssey did it's thing, and everything sounded pretty darn good. Then I broke out REW to see what was happening, and the subs were really flat from 80hz (the cutoff that I set after Audyssey had set the mains at 40hz) to 40hz on the subs. At about 40hz, they rolled off gently, with a bump at 30hz. I then used the PEQ to eq both subs together to flatten it out from 40hz - 20hz. Now the subs are really flat. I then leveled the Audyssey (AVR) sub levels to -8 each, and recalibrated the subs using REW, and the PEQ level controls. This way, I have "more" room to boost things if need be, although everything is sounding very full and I haven't had the need to raise the levels this past week.

Thanks to everyone here for the tips. I think, after reflection, that I really got used to the bass in the theater room with 4 x 18" ported subs. I was expecting the same level of performance from 2 x 12" sealed subs in the living room, and now I know that that was just unrealistic.


You are very welcome, and I'm glad that the subs sound and measure better now! As you say, you have room to boost things if you decide later that you want to.

As you said, two 12" sealed subs are hardly likely to sound or feel exactly the way that four 18" ported subs do, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Depending on the size of the room that the sealed subs are in, the room construction (a suspended wood floor for the sealed subs, and a concrete floor for the ported subs, for instance), and the type of listening you are doing (acoustic music and TV, versus action movies, for instance) they may not need to have as much low-bass SPL, and they may not need to sound or feel the same.

There are a lot of variables that determine our satisfaction level with our subwoofers, in a particular space, for particular types of content. I listed some of them above. I think that you might enjoy having rooms with inherently different potential uses and sound qualities. Large ported subs with reasonably low port tunes will always be capable of much more <35Hz SPL than comparable sealed subs, although sealed subs can make-up that difference with sufficient numbers of subs, and with a strong house curve.

And, ported subs will always produce more low-bass tactile response (TR) than comparable sealed subs do. (On concrete, that can be a real plus, but it may not be quite as desirable on a suspended wood floor, where the floor itself will contribute much more to the low-bass TR.) So, the ported and sealed subs may not ever feel exactly the same, even if the low-bass SPL matches.

As noted above, I think that instead of having two rooms with exactly matching capabilities, you might actually enjoy having rooms/systems with some inherently different characteristics, and you might then just tailor your listening content somewhat to the specific room.

Regards,
Mike
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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #1194 of 1344 Old 04-02-2019, 10:15 AM
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I was watching the Cream 2005 concert blu-ray over the weekend with Audyssey engaged, DEQ off, 100Hz crossover, and 6-7 dB of channel level boost on the subs (Marantz AV7704).

This blu-ray has some very potent bass from the kick drums and bass guitar, and I was playing it pretty loud (-5 at the loudest, IIRC). The bass sounded great – impactful and clean, to my ears.

However, I did notice that the subs (Outlaw X12 and LFM-1) were working pretty darn hard – a lot of driver excursion, port output, and some enclosure vibration. I didn’t notice sounds of distress, but the subs definitely seemed like they were working harder than they were previously with my Outlaw 975 pre/pro.

So, this made me wonder about the general impact of SubEQ HT on subwoofer output and headroom. If SubEQ HT is only trying to fix major nulls (and not trying to reduce major peaks) based on the specific room response, seems like this could really tax the subwoofer output and headroom. In my case, the Editor App does show major nulls in the 50-80 Hz range in the sub “before” plot (see screenshot). This, in combination with sub level boost, could really tax one’s sub(s), I would think.

Again, I did not notice any signs of distress – like distortion, chuffing, rattles, etc. However, I wonder if folks have found that their sub(s) run out of steam post SubEQ HT, and whether folks have upgraded to bigger and badder subs because of this.

As a side note, I’ve been contemplating sub upgrades, even before using SubEQ HT with the Marantz 7704. Been wondering how much of an upgrade two 15” PSA V1510DF’s would be over the two 12” Outlaw’s I have. I use this system for 2-channel music and 5.1 concerts, primarily…with some TV and movies sprinkled in, so clean bass with a lot of headroom above 25-30 Hz is more of a priority than sub 25 Hz extension for me.
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post #1195 of 1344 Old 04-02-2019, 02:04 PM
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I was watching the Cream 2005 concert blu-ray over the weekend with Audyssey engaged, DEQ off, 100Hz crossover, and 6-7 dB of channel level boost on the subs (Marantz AV7704).

This blu-ray has some very potent bass from the kick drums and bass guitar, and I was playing it pretty loud (-5 at the loudest, IIRC). The bass sounded great – impactful and clean, to my ears.

However, I did notice that the subs (Outlaw X12 and LFM-1) were working pretty darn hard – a lot of driver excursion, port output, and some enclosure vibration. I didn’t notice sounds of distress, but the subs definitely seemed like they were working harder than they were previously with my Outlaw 975 pre/pro.

So, this made me wonder about the general impact of SubEQ HT on subwoofer output and headroom. If SubEQ HT is only trying to fix major nulls (and not trying to reduce major peaks) based on the specific room response, seems like this could really tax the subwoofer output and headroom. In my case, the Editor App does show major nulls in the 50-80 Hz range in the sub “before” plot (see screenshot). This, in combination with sub level boost, could really tax one’s sub(s), I would think.

Again, I did not notice any signs of distress – like distortion, chuffing, rattles, etc. However, I wonder if folks have found that their sub(s) run out of steam post SubEQ HT, and whether folks have upgraded to bigger and badder subs because of this.

As a side note, I’ve been contemplating sub upgrades, even before using SubEQ HT with the Marantz 7704. Been wondering how much of an upgrade two 15” PSA V1510DF’s would be over the two 12” Outlaw’s I have. I use this system for 2-channel music and 5.1 concerts, primarily…with some TV and movies sprinkled in, so clean bass with a lot of headroom above 25-30 Hz is more of a priority than sub 25 Hz extension for me.
Ah, the memory. I use to have that Outlaw AVP, many years ago
I change-it to a Onkyo PRS-886 with Audyssey XP. Nice new AVP, from there I moved to AV8801 then my present AV7702mkII.

From your screenshot, it does look like SubEQ on your Marantz did some boost. Look like around +5dB, for the 50-80Hz to make the response flatter.
If it is the case, playing at -5dB from refence level with a boost of 6-7dB. It would make your subs play very hard.
On the good side, you did not heard any stress level.
So no bottom out, meaning no damage

In my opinion, getting two 15" subs. Would be a step forward from your 12"
To play at those type of volume.

Since Mike always reply on this thread, he can correct me or add new information.


Ray
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post #1196 of 1344 Old 04-02-2019, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by adam2434 View Post
I was watching the Cream 2005 concert blu-ray over the weekend with Audyssey engaged, DEQ off, 100Hz crossover, and 6-7 dB of channel level boost on the subs (Marantz AV7704).

This blu-ray has some very potent bass from the kick drums and bass guitar, and I was playing it pretty loud (-5 at the loudest, IIRC). The bass sounded great – impactful and clean, to my ears.

However, I did notice that the subs (Outlaw X12 and LFM-1) were working pretty darn hard – a lot of driver excursion, port output, and some enclosure vibration. I didn’t notice sounds of distress, but the subs definitely seemed like they were working harder than they were previously with my Outlaw 975 pre/pro.

So, this made me wonder about the general impact of SubEQ HT on subwoofer output and headroom. If SubEQ HT is only trying to fix major nulls (and not trying to reduce major peaks) based on the specific room response, seems like this could really tax the subwoofer output and headroom. In my case, the Editor App does show major nulls in the 50-80 Hz range in the sub “before” plot (see screenshot). This, in combination with sub level boost, could really tax one’s sub(s), I would think.

Again, I did not notice any signs of distress – like distortion, chuffing, rattles, etc. However, I wonder if folks have found that their sub(s) run out of steam post SubEQ HT, and whether folks have upgraded to bigger and badder subs because of this.

As a side note, I’ve been contemplating sub upgrades, even before using SubEQ HT with the Marantz 7704. Been wondering how much of an upgrade two 15” PSA V1510DF’s would be over the two 12” Outlaw’s I have. I use this system for 2-channel music and 5.1 concerts, primarily…with some TV and movies sprinkled in, so clean bass with a lot of headroom above 25-30 Hz is more of a priority than sub 25 Hz extension for me.

Hi,

First, I think it's a good call to believe that Audyssey can reduce your overall headroom somewhat, depending on how much it is pulling-up dips, compared to pulling down peaks. Audyssey attempts to compensate for that by allowing its software to pull-down peaks by up to 20db, but it can only pull-up dips by a maximum of 9db. Most rooms have both peaks and dips in the frequency response, so the loss of headroom from pulling-up dips, and the gain in headroom from pulling-down peaks, tends to even out. In your case, though, they may not even out, if you don't have many frequencies peaking to start with.

Second, although the graphs that you see aren't totally accurate (for instance, they only depict what Audyssey was trying to do, not what it actually did) they do indicate some issues that might be ameliorated with better subwoofer placement. Fortunately, fixing dips in the 40Hz to 80Hz range doesn't consume as much headroom, as fixing even lower dips would, but you might get better results if you experiment a bit more with sub placement and test the results with Audyssey calibrations.

Third, your volume level is pretty high. Combined with the sub boost you are using, you are putting a good bit of demand on your subs. Remember to keep your trim levels well in the negative range (say about -5) and use your sub gains to add most of your subwoofer boost, post-Audyssey. That will help to prevent clipping, which is a form of distortion, but one that might be harder to hear. Section II of the Guide explains gain/trim relationships in detail.

I definitely think that a couple of PSA V1510's would be a significant upgrade for the content and preferences you describe. The current line of PSA ported subs roll-off a little faster below 20Hz than some other subs do, but they are designed to have a lot of >25Hz SPL. I think that you would enjoy the upgrade, but remember that subwoofer placement is what causes the dips you are seeing in the before graph, and you would still want to maximize your pre-Audyssey response, even with the new subwoofers.

This is just something to experiment with. If you get serious about it, you might want to invest in a calibrated UMIK-1 and download REW. It's free, but takes a little time and effort to learn. You might, for instance, want to change the phase on one of your subs, in an effort to reduce cancellation currently occurring in the 40Hz to 80Hz range. But, I'm not sure that you will be able to do that successfully by ear, or just with an SPL meter. You can try though, by listening/measuring the volume of some test tones in that range, while adjusting the phase control on just one of your subs.

I think that trying to reduce the potentially large area of depression in your frequency response, between 40hz and 80Hz, will be helpful regardless of which subs you have, although the PSA subs will absolutely have a lot more native volume in that range than your Outlaw subs have.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #1197 of 1344 Old 04-02-2019, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adam2434 View Post
As a side note, I’ve been contemplating sub upgrades, even before using SubEQ HT with the Marantz 7704. Been wondering how much of an upgrade two 15” PSA V1510DF’s would be over the two 12” Outlaw’s I have. I use this system for 2-channel music and 5.1 concerts, primarily…with some TV and movies sprinkled in, so clean bass with a lot of headroom above 25-30 Hz is more of a priority than sub 25 Hz extension for me.
Since you are specifically looking for subs to play music, you may want to consider Rythmik. Known for low distortion, articulate sound. Slightly different sound signature than PSA, from what I understand, but can't go wrong either way.
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FVX15.html
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FV15HP.html
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post #1198 of 1344 Old 04-03-2019, 05:52 AM
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darthray, mthomas47, and drh3b, thanks for the input.

Regarding phase adjustment to reduce cancellation, I thought that SubEQ HT was supposed to set the delay optimally. If I were to adjust phase on one sub 180 degrees (these subs only have 0/180 settings) prior to Audyssey calibration, wouldn’t SubEQ HT readjust the delay based on what it’s trying to achieve?

One thing I could try is to flip 1 sub to 180 degrees phase, rerun Audyssey, and see if the before plot is any better/different.

Regarding sub positioning, I am very limited in this room.

Current sub locations are in the front of the room – orange and green circles in the first pic. Note that picture is old and right before I added the second sub. Currently, The Outlaw X-12 is in the orange circle and the Outlaw LFM-1 is in the green circle.

My only 2 other placement options are:

1) Move both subs to the side walls, somewhat near the midpoints of the room, although not perfectly symmetrical – yellow and blue circles in the second pic. Running a sub cable to the blue circle would be a pain.

2) Or, keep one sub in one of the current orange or green front positions and move the other to one of the side wall blue or yellow circles.

I do have some concern that moving the subs to the side walls, closer to the couch, could cause localization for music.

Also, the couch is about at the midpoint of the room, which I believe is also less than ideal, regardless of sub positioning.

So, it this room, I feel like I have some real sub placement limitations and compromises, so that is why I was thinking that bigger subs with more headroom, combined with SubEQ HT equalization, might be a viable upgrade path forward.
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5.1 and 2.0 ch: Outlaw 975/Emotiva DC-1/Rotel RB-1582 MKII/Rotel RB-1552/Audiosource Amp 3/Polk LS90, CS400i, FX500i/Outlaw X-12, LFM-1/JVD DLA-HD250/Da-Lite 100" HCCV/Sony ES BDP/Sonos Connect. DC-1/RB-1582 MKII/Sonos Connect also feed Polk 7C in garage and Dayton IO655 on patio. 2.1 ch: Denon AVR-2807/Klipsch Forte I or NHT SB2/JBL SUB 550P x 2. 2.0 ch: Rotel RX-1052/Emotiva DC-1/Klipsch RF-7 III/Sony ES BDP/LG 65" LED. 2.0 ch: Klipsch Powergate/NHT SB3. Kitchen: Sonos Play5.
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post #1199 of 1344 Old 04-03-2019, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adam2434 View Post
darthray, mthomas47, and drh3b, thanks for the input.

Regarding phase adjustment to reduce cancellation, I thought that SubEQ HT was supposed to set the delay optimally. If I were to adjust phase on one sub 180 degrees (these subs only have 0/180 settings) prior to Audyssey calibration, wouldn’t SubEQ HT readjust the delay based on what it’s trying to achieve?

One thing I could try is to flip 1 sub to 180 degrees phase, rerun Audyssey, and see if the before plot is any better/different.

Regarding sub positioning, I am very limited in this room.

Current sub locations are in the front of the room – orange and green circles in the first pic. Note that picture is old and right before I added the second sub. Currently, The Outlaw X-12 is in the orange circle and the Outlaw LFM-1 is in the green circle.

My only 2 other placement options are:

1) Move both subs to the side walls, somewhat near the midpoints of the room, although not perfectly symmetrical – yellow and blue circles in the second pic. Running a sub cable to the blue circle would be a pain.

2) Or, keep one sub in one of the current orange or green front positions and move the other to one of the side wall blue or yellow circles.

I do have some concern that moving the subs to the side walls, closer to the couch, could cause localization for music.

Also, the couch is about at the midpoint of the room, which I believe is also less than ideal, regardless of sub positioning.

So, it this room, I feel like I have some real sub placement limitations and compromises, so that is why I was thinking that bigger subs with more headroom, combined with SubEQ HT equalization, might be a viable upgrade path forward.


You are very welcome! Let's take some of those issues one at a time. First, with respect to room modes, your couch is not actually at the midpoint of the room. Some bass will escape to the space beyond your room, but the primary room modes are determined by the four walls which enclose the space, and not by the openings to other spaces. So, your couch location is not a principle factor in the mid-bass cancellation, in my opinion. If I'm right, that's a good thing, because that's a harder thing to fix!

FWIW, I think that you will get better overall sound quality, if you move your couch about a foot away from the wall, and put a painting or something absorbent on the wall behind the couch. That will help your mid-range and treble sound quality. Reading Section I of the Guide will help you to understand why that would be helpful, and you will also see some suggestions in that section about running a better Audyssey calibration. The bare wall directly behind your couch is a factor in what you hear, and in how Audyssey performs.

Second, I would experiment with other subwoofer locations before running Audyssey, and I would experiment with changing the phase on one of the subs after running Audyssey. It is important to understand that there is a degree of trial-and-error in all of this. You observe a large area of cancellation and try different methods of fixing it, without knowing in advance whether you can find physical locations which will work better. And, you won't know whether you will have localization either, until you try the placement you mentioned. Especially, with more than one sub in a room, nearfield placement of a sub can sometimes work very well.

The same thing applies to making changes in the phase on one of the subs. You just have to experiment to see if it helps. Audyssey sets the distance for each sub separately, but it EQ's the two subs together, based on their combined response. Where you know that you have a large area of cancellation, especially in a portion of the frequency range which is very important to you, you can experiment with a phase adjustment, or a distance adjustment for that matter, to see if it helps. The suggestions I am making are not just random ones, but I still can't tell you which subwoofer locations will work best, or whether a post-Audyssey phase adjustment will be helpful. You still have to experiment to find out.

I think that having better subs with more mid-bass headroom, does represent a good path forward. But, more headroom won't, by itself, fix a null. If the null remains after your Audyssey calibration, the new subwoofers will be able to play all frequencies louder than the current ones could, but that portion of the frequency range, which dips down, will still play softer than the rest of the frequency range played by the subs.

If Audyssey is fixing the problem sufficiently that you aren't aware of any loss of SPL in the mid-bass range (40Hz to 80Hz, in this case), then more capable subwoofers will absolutely give you more of what you want, and they won't have to work as hard to do it. In that case, I think that the two PSA subwoofers would be a great choice, because they are especially strong in the range you care most about. And, I would also expect you to notice an overall improvement in your bass sound quality with better subs.

If however, there is an ongoing issue in the 40Hz to 80Hz range that you are aware of, then some experimentation may be helpful to you, either with your current subwoofers, or with the new ones. That's really all I was saying.

We all decide for ourselves how much experimentation is enough. Some people really like to tinker with subwoofer placement, and with other things including measurements, and many others just like to put subwoofers where they seem to fit and work fairly well. I think that there is no absolute right or wrong answer to any of this--just the answer that your own sense of curiosity, and/or level of satisfaction, dictates.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 04-03-2019 at 09:00 AM. Reason: Typo
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post #1200 of 1344 Old 04-03-2019, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
You are very welcome! Let's take some of those issues one at a time. First, with respect to room modes, your couch is not actually at the midpoint of the room. Some bass will escape to the space beyond your room, but the primary room modes are determined by the four walls which enclose the space, and not by the openings to other spaces. So, your couch location is not a principle factor in the mid-bass cancellation, in my opinion. If I'm right, that's a good thing, because that's a harder thing to fix!

FWIW, I think that you will get better overall sound quality, if you move your couch about a foot away from the wall, and put a painting or something absorbent on the wall behind the couch. That will help your mid-range and treble sound quality. Reading Section I of the Guide will help you to understand why that would be helpful, and you will also see some suggestions in that section about running a better Audyssey calibration. The bare wall directly behind your couch is a factor in what you hear, and in how Audyssey performs.
Mike
Mike, thanks!

Might be hard to tell from the pic, but there is an half-wall behind the couch and a walk-though into a bar area that is a little smaller than the main viewing area. Do you think that the bar area is not a factor in room modes because it is not totally open to the main viewing area? If so, you are right, that would be a good thing.

Regarding the half-wall behind the couch, I do put pillows on top of the couch back when listening and when running Audyssey, in order to reduce reflections. Currently, I am limiting correction to 350 Hz with the Editor App, BTW.

I get what you are saying regarding experimenting with sub phase and locations, regardless of the make and model.


-
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5.1 and 2.0 ch: Outlaw 975/Emotiva DC-1/Rotel RB-1582 MKII/Rotel RB-1552/Audiosource Amp 3/Polk LS90, CS400i, FX500i/Outlaw X-12, LFM-1/JVD DLA-HD250/Da-Lite 100" HCCV/Sony ES BDP/Sonos Connect. DC-1/RB-1582 MKII/Sonos Connect also feed Polk 7C in garage and Dayton IO655 on patio. 2.1 ch: Denon AVR-2807/Klipsch Forte I or NHT SB2/JBL SUB 550P x 2. 2.0 ch: Rotel RX-1052/Emotiva DC-1/Klipsch RF-7 III/Sony ES BDP/LG 65" LED. 2.0 ch: Klipsch Powergate/NHT SB3. Kitchen: Sonos Play5.
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