Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences - Page 42 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1231 of 1410 Old 05-05-2019, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

Congratulations on your new subs! In theory, running each sub into a different sub out in your AVR should give you identical results to using a Y-splitter into a single sub out. In practice, trying just a single sub out often works better, as it requires Audyssey to do a little less processing. Mark Seaton has always recommended trying this method first, when subs are on the same wall and equidistant from the MLP.

Since your subs will not only be equidistant from the MLP, but will also be essentially acting as one sub anyway, due to their side-by-side location, I think that using just one sub out will introduce one less potential variable into the equation. So, that's what I would try if I were you.

Regards,
Mike
You are the best! As always...Thanks for the help Mike.
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post #1232 of 1410 Old 05-05-2019, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

Congratulations on your new subs! In theory, running each sub into a different sub out in your AVR should give you identical results to using a Y-splitter into a single sub out. In practice, trying just a single sub out often works better, as it requires Audyssey to do a little less processing. Mark Seaton has always recommended trying this method first, when subs are on the same wall and equidistant from the MLP.

Since your subs will not only be equidistant from the MLP, but will also be essentially acting as one sub anyway, due to their side-by-side location, I think that using just one sub out will introduce one less potential variable into the equation. So, that's what I would try if I were you.

Regards,
Mike
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Originally Posted by dinamigym View Post
Hi, I'm purchasing 2 Rythmik FV25HPs. They will be placed in the the rear of my dedicated media room which is 15' wide x 28' deep (8' ceiling), carpet over concrete slab. My processor is a Marantz AV8805. For integration purposes would I be better off using the two sub outs on the Marantz (one for each sub) or one sub out and connecting the two subs together by XLR?

Note: the subs will basically be right next to each other centered on the rear wall of the room...so pretty much exactly equidistant from the MLP.

Thanks for any help/thoughts?
First, jealous of your new subs and also about your AVP

As Mike said in the above quote, both subs would be acting as one for distance/phase. Since they are collocated and using a Y-splitter may work wonder.
The one advantage of using dual output with Audyseey XT32 at this point, would be adjusting the volume output for each sub.
That could be done with an SPL meter.


Ray
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post #1233 of 1410 Old 05-05-2019, 05:47 PM
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First, jealous of your new subs and also about your AVP

As Mike said in the above quote, would be acting as one for distance/phase. Since they are collocated and using a Y-splitter may work wonder.
The one advantage of using dual output with Audyseey XT32 at this point, would be taking of the volume output for each sub.
That could be done with an SPL meter.


Interesting...thanks for that!


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post #1234 of 1410 Old 05-05-2019, 05:55 PM
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Interesting...thanks for that!


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So sorry, for not mentioning the price of my post
We want pictures and your impressions, once your are done

Ray
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post #1235 of 1410 Old 05-05-2019, 06:10 PM
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Nice post! Thank you for the info!
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post #1236 of 1410 Old 05-06-2019, 09:02 AM
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So sorry, for not mentioning the price of my post
We want pictures and your impressions, once your are done

Ray

These will be my first Rythmik subs and the first sub I've really bought in 8 years. Looking forward to it. I'm sure ill have plenty more questions when they arrive! lol. Thanks Again
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post #1237 of 1410 Old 05-06-2019, 03:58 PM
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Thanks, Mike and Ray

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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Jack,

That's good news that your two subs seem to be working well together! Are you saying that you are measuring a 6db increase in SPL at 60Hz, and an 8db increase in SPL at 75Hz, compared to frequencies above and below that, after running Audyssey? If so, that's very strange. Audyssey's goal is to make all frequencies play +/-3db from 75db when it sets its filters. And, it can pull down peaks by up to 20db. What it can't do, though, is to EQ the speakers in relation to the subs. It EQ's each channel individually. The subs are all EQed as one, as part of the .1 LFE channel.

I don't know where you are crossing from your front speakers to your subs. If your crossover is lower than 80Hz, I would raise it to at least that number, and I might also try 90Hz. I assume that you are running your frnt speakers as Small and that you aren't using LFE+Main. That feature can mess things up sometimes (often). I really wouldn't like hearing that much extra mid-bass, so I think it would be worth experimenting a bit to see if I could get rid of it.

You can certainly try to use the PEQ built into your SVS sub to see if you can pull down those peaks, but it would be useful here to be able to measure your frequency response with REW. I assume that you can hear the extra mid-bass in the 60 to 75Hz range as well as measure it with an SPL meter? Don't forget that most uncalibrated SPL meters will lose volume as they try to measure lower frequencies, so unless 60-75Hz measures louder than 100Hz or 120Hz, then you may just be seeing the limitations in your SPL meter; especially if you can't really hear that much more mid-bass.

If you do decide to implement some independent PEQ to try to pull down those frequencies, I might consult with Ed Mullen first, if I were you. I hope this helps!

Regards,
Mike
Thank you for your comments and suggestions. My receiver recommended 60 Hz crossover and I went with that; I now am thinking of raising it to 90 or 100 Hz. Haven't checked response levels above 100 Hz yet. I have the curve for the SPL meter, it's pretty flat thru the region I am presently concerned with. Gonna be away from my toys till next month. Got a UMIK-1 so I can start using REW (always more to learn!!). Now I also have to learn to run my recently acquired old Ashly Protea processor...hope it isn't too much for my 71-year-old brain. Regards
Jack
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Originally Posted by dinamigym View Post
These will be my first Rythmik subs and the first sub I've really bought in 8 years. Looking forward to it. I'm sure ill have plenty more questions when they arrive! lol. Thanks Again
While I will be almost in the same situation, for my first Rythmik and me been 10 years since my last subs purchase.
I intend to get two of these, in a year or so;
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FV18.html

Due the bigger size than my present PB13, I will also need to experiment with new locations.
I look at it, as some fun time. And also looking forward to see how Servo subs, sound in my room

Looking forward to hear your impressions, and the steps you took to achieve your set-up.


Ray
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Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
While I will be almost in the same situation, for my first Rythmik and me been 10 years since my last subs purchase.
I intend to get two of these, in a year or so;
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FV18.html

Due the bigger size than my present PB13, I will also need to experiment with new locations.
I look at it, as some fun time. And also looking forward to see how Servo subs, sound in my room

Looking forward to hear your impressions, and the steps you took to achieve your set-up.


Ray


UPS just scheduled delivery for Monday. I’m excited and nervous Ha! I’ll be sure to keep you posted. I was very torn between the FV25s and 18s. The 18s I wanted are currently on back order so that was really the only deciding factor at this point. The 18s look like fantastic subs


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post #1240 of 1410 Old 05-10-2019, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by dinamigym View Post
UPS just scheduled delivery for Monday. I’m excited and nervous Ha! I’ll be sure to keep you posted. I was very torn between the FV25s and 18s. The 18s I wanted are currently on back order so that was really the only deciding factor at this point. The 18s look like fantastic subs

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Those are exciting for you
I know that every time, I buy a new toy. Checking daily where it is, once ship. Is a big part of the fun for me.
Looking forward for your impressions!


Darth


P.S. changing my signature, too many Ray's around in too many threads
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Question for the experts here: I thought I had my sub's gain set correctly after a speaker calibration on my last receiver, an Onkyo TX-NR828, but when that died about 10 months ago I had to replace it with an RZ-820. Due to another failure of an HDMI board on my RZ-820 which I just had repaired at the beginning of the month, I had to re-run the calibration and the sub volume on the receiver is set to +4.5db for sub output. Having read the notes in the beginning of this thread, it seems that means my sub's gain is not nearly high enough. I then re-ran speaker calibration two more times, turning up the gain a little more before each run, and now it's showing +1.5db, which is still off from what I'm reading. Don't you want the sub output to be around -10 to -6db on the receiver, post calibration/ If so, it certainly seems like I'm having to greatly increase the amount of gain I had been using for the last 4-5 years.

I did watch a movie (Inception) last night and it felt like there was too much bass in a few scenes of the film. I don't think I'm getting the correct sound and output levels that I should be. For reference, my gain is now set at about the 10 o'clock point on the adjustment knob. It used to be set to around 7 or 8. Any insight?
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Originally Posted by Piker84 View Post
Question for the experts here: I thought I had my sub's gain set correctly after a speaker calibration on my last receiver, an Onkyo TX-NR828, but when that died about 10 months ago I had to replace it with an RZ-820. Due to another failure of an HDMI board on my RZ-820 which I just had repaired at the beginning of the month, I had to re-run the calibration and the sub volume on the receiver is set to +4.5db for sub output. Having read the notes in the beginning of this thread, it seems that means my sub's gain is not nearly high enough. I then re-ran speaker calibration two more times, turning up the gain a little more before each run, and now it's showing +1.5db, which is still off from what I'm reading. Don't you want the sub output to be around -10 to -6db on the receiver, post calibration/ If so, it certainly seems like I'm having to greatly increase the amount of gain I had been using for the last 4-5 years.

I did watch a movie (Inception) last night and it felt like there was too much bass in a few scenes of the film. I don't think I'm getting the correct sound and output levels that I should be. For reference, my gain is now set at about the 10 o'clock point on the adjustment knob. It used to be set to around 7 or 8. Any insight?

Hi,

I don't think I have quite enough information to completely diagnose the problem, but I do know that the internal gain structure of different AVR's can vary. What that means is that different AVR's can send varying amounts of voltage to the subwoofer through the sub out in the AVR, and that in turn will affect the trim level of the sub. Onkyo now has its own proprietary room EQ program, and I don't know much about it. It's also possible that different AVR's, with different measuring microphones, could produce different trim results. I wouldn't worry about that part too much.

Assuming that the calibration was performed correctly, and that the Onkyo is working correctly, here is what I would do. First, I would reduce the sub's trim level in the AVR to about -5 or -6. Watch some other movies you like and see how that sounds. FWIW, some movies are always going to have more aggressive bass than others. Perhaps watch the same scenes in Inception again, and if you need to, increase the gain on the sub a little more. 10:00 is still a very low gain setting, so you have a lot of headroom left.

Once you feel you have a good listening baseline established at a trim level of about -6, you can adjust the trim upward or downward a little with your AVR remote, depending on the bass content of the specific movie or program you are watching. As you know from reading the Guide, it is a good idea to keep your sub trim level well in the negative. But, it is the combination of trim level, sub gain level, and master volume that determines how loudly the sub plays.

You are just trying to find the right combination of trim and gain, which gives you the amount of bass you want, while still allowing you to keep the trim level well in negative numbers. You can do all that after your calibration, if you want to, by following the procedure I suggested.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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Cascading Crossovers???

I thought I'd give the cascading crossovers a try. I did find that reducing the LPF down to 80 hz does seem to improve the center channel dialogue. I wish there was an accurate way to measure with a UMIK-1? Or is this just more subjective and preference related?
Is cascading crossovers still a thing to be doing?
In addition, the third tier of cascading, is it better do at the actual subwoofer with knob or more accurately with MiniDSP?

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post #1244 of 1410 Old 05-13-2019, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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I thought I'd give the cascading crossovers a try. I did find that reducing the LPF down to 80 hz does seem to improve the center channel dialogue. I wish there was an accurate way to measure with a UMIK-1? Or is this just more subjective and preference related?
Is cascading crossovers still a thing to be doing?
In addition, the third tier of cascading, is it better do at the actual subwoofer with knob or more accurately with MiniDSP?

Hi,

Those are good questions! I find that keeping bass frequencies from creeping into the material played by my center channel makes dialogue clearer. Mid-bass and higher sounds are sharper and easier to separate than low-bass sounds, so that makes sense, especially if we are using significant subwoofer boosts. It's the harmonics in voices that makes speech sound clearer, so keeping some bass out of the frequencies above about the lowest frequency of a male voice does seem to help. But, I think that trying to measure something like that would be a lot of trouble for not much result.

When I experiment with something like this, things either sound better a particular way, or they sound the same, or they sound worse. I trust my hearing and my preferences on that, and I adjust my settings accordingly. I like using an 80Hz LPF of LFE, and I like using cascading crossovers, but it's strictly a YMMV proposition.

As far as where you want to set the LPF for the subwoofer, I think that you can do it either way, but you will probably be splitting hairs. The idea is to set an additional LPF at about 80Hz, preferably with a 24db per octave roll-off. That way, the frequencies above 80Hz will roll-off a little faster, leaving more headroom below 80Hz, and keeping some bass out of the frequencies above 80Hz. But, an LPF at 90Hz with a second order filter (12db per octave) would still work pretty well.

This is something that you can choose to be as exact on as you like, but it may be hard to hear a difference between the two examples I used.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
As far as where you want to set the LPF for the subwoofer,..... But, an LPF at 90Hz with a second order filter (12db per octave) would still work pretty well.
I'm glad you mentioned the second order thing. Something super easy to try with the MiniDSP in the chain. I'll keep messing around with it but so far, the WAF is much better with hear the voices a bit crisper.

Thanks for your input and also my sincerest thanks to you for putting all this down in your guide. You have truly opened my eyes and ears to all this wonderful information!

Kevin.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

Those are good questions! I find that keeping bass frequencies from creeping into the material played by my center channel makes dialogue clearer. Mid-bass and higher sounds are sharper and easier to separate than low-bass sounds, so that makes sense, especially if we are using significant subwoofer boosts. It's the harmonics in voices that makes speech sound clearer, so keeping some bass out of the frequencies above about the lowest frequency of a male voice does seem to help. But, I think that trying to measure something like that would be a lot of trouble for not much result.

When I experiment with something like this, things either sound better a particular way, or they sound the same, or they sound worse. I trust my hearing and my preferences on that, and I adjust my settings accordingly. I like using an 80Hz LPF of LFE, and I like using cascading crossovers, but it's strictly a YMMV proposition.

As far as where you want to set the LPF for the subwoofer, I think that you can do it either way, but you will probably be splitting hairs. The idea is to set an additional LPF at about 80Hz, preferably with a 24db per octave roll-off. That way, the frequencies above 80Hz will roll-off a little faster, leaving more headroom below 80Hz, and keeping some bass out of the frequencies above 80Hz. But, an LPF at 90Hz with a second order filter (12db per octave) would still work pretty well.

This is something that you can choose to be as exact on as you like, but it may be hard to hear a difference between the two examples I used.

Regards,
Mike
If the front LCR is set to 80hz crossover, but he surrounds and height Atmos set to 100hz..for cascading, would you recommend LPF of LFE at 80 or 100?

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If the front LCR is set to 80hz crossover, but he surrounds and height Atmos set to 100hz..for cascading, would you recommend LPF of LFE at 80 or 100?
Since the LFE/LPF is only concerning the bass, redirected to the sub/s.
I would first try 80Hz, and also try 100Hz or if possible 90Hz. To see the one setting you prefer.
Since Cascading Crossover, is purely a preference thing to get more Mid Bass.

While in my system, I use 80Hz. Many prefer 90Hz from some posts.
All depend of your room and sub/s been use, and the room is a big factor.


Darth
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post #1248 of 1410 Old 05-13-2019, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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If the front LCR is set to 80hz crossover, but he surrounds and height Atmos set to 100hz..for cascading, would you recommend LPF of LFE at 80 or 100?

The situation you are describing is not unusual. The rear surrounds and Atmos channels especially, have crossovers that are frequently higher than those on the front soundstage. They also play less significant content than those on the front soundstage and we tend to be a little less discerning about them. The advantage of using the 80Hz setting is primarily for that front soundstage in my system. I do get a bit more mid-bass, and I like that. But, mostly I pick-up clarity, particularly for dialogue coming from the center channel.

If I were you, I would try both the 80Hz setting and the 100Hz setting, to determine whether I could hear any difference at all. And, I would play a variety of bass content to make that determination. If I couldn't hear any difference, I would probably just go with the 80Hz setting. Or, I might use a compromise frequency of 90Hz.

Remember that you aren't actually eliminating any frequencies completely with these settings. You are just setting filters to make the subwoofers roll-off a little faster above those frequencies. They will still be playing above 80Hz in any case, but they will be playing above 80Hz relatively softer than they would be with a higher LPF of LFE.

I think you would be far more likely to hear a difference between 80Hz and 100Hz for the front soundstage, although even then the difference would probably be subtle. But, I think that you would be far less likely to hear the even more subtle difference between the two settings for the surround and Atmos channels. If you do hear a difference just go with the one you like better.

Regards,
Mike

Edit: I was too slow for Darth on this one.
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #1249 of 1410 Old 05-13-2019, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
The situation you are describing is not unusual. The rear surrounds and Atmos channels especially, have crossovers that are frequently higher than those on the front soundstage. They also play less significant content than those on the front soundstage and we tend to be a little less discerning about them.

If I were you, I would try both the 80Hz setting and the 100Hz setting, to determine whether I could hear any difference at all. And, I would play a variety of bass content to make that determination. If I couldn't hear any difference, I would probably just go with the 80Hz setting. Or, I might use a compromise frequency of 90Hz.

Remember that you aren't actually eliminating any frequencies completely with these settings. You are just setting filters to make the subwoofers roll-off a little faster above those frequencies. They will still be playing above 80Hz in any case, but they will be playing above 80Hz relatively softer than they would be with a higher LPF of LFE.

I think you would be far more likely to hear a difference between 80Hz and 100Hz for the front soundstage, although even then the difference would probably be subtle. But, I think that you would be far less likely to hear the even more subtle difference between the two settings for the surround and Atmos channels. If you do hear a difference just go with the one you like better.

Regards,
Mike

Edit: I was too slow for Darth on this one.
Doesn't happen too often, normally it is the other way around


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post #1250 of 1410 Old 05-13-2019, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Piker84 View Post
Question for the experts here: I thought I had my sub's gain set correctly after a speaker calibration on my last receiver, an Onkyo TX-NR828, but when that died about 10 months ago I had to replace it with an RZ-820. Due to another failure of an HDMI board on my RZ-820 which I just had repaired at the beginning of the month, I had to re-run the calibration and the sub volume on the receiver is set to +4.5db for sub output. Having read the notes in the beginning of this thread, it seems that means my sub's gain is not nearly high enough. I then re-ran speaker calibration two more times, turning up the gain a little more before each run, and now it's showing +1.5db, which is still off from what I'm reading. Don't you want the sub output to be around -10 to -6db on the receiver, post calibration/ If so, it certainly seems like I'm having to greatly increase the amount of gain I had been using for the last 4-5 years.

I did watch a movie (Inception) last night and it felt like there was too much bass in a few scenes of the film. I don't think I'm getting the correct sound and output levels that I should be. For reference, my gain is now set at about the 10 o'clock point on the adjustment knob. It used to be set to around 7 or 8. Any insight?
While Mike @mthomas47 already answer your question, I will just add that not all movies a created and recorded the same.
Since many Sound Engineer, have different preference for what it should sound (and many unfortunately, suffer from hearing loss from listening at very high level during the mixing session).
I would not base your impression, on the how the bass sound in your room and sub/s on one movie.
But instead after watching several movies, to give you a good general impression with different recording


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post #1251 of 1410 Old 05-13-2019, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

Those are good questions! I find that keeping bass frequencies from creeping into the material played by my center channel makes dialogue clearer. Mid-bass and higher sounds are sharper and easier to separate than low-bass sounds, so that makes sense, especially if we are using significant subwoofer boosts. It's the harmonics in voices that makes speech sound clearer, so keeping some bass out of the frequencies above about the lowest frequency of a male voice does seem to help. But, I think that trying to measure something like that would be a lot of trouble for not much result.

When I experiment with something like this, things either sound better a particular way, or they sound the same, or they sound worse. I trust my hearing and my preferences on that, and I adjust my settings accordingly. I like using an 80Hz LPF of LFE, and I like using cascading crossovers, but it's strictly a YMMV proposition.

As far as where you want to set the LPF for the subwoofer, I think that you can do it either way, but you will probably be splitting hairs. The idea is to set an additional LPF at about 80Hz, preferably with a 24db per octave roll-off. That way, the frequencies above 80Hz will roll-off a little faster, leaving more headroom below 80Hz, and keeping some bass out of the frequencies above 80Hz. But, an LPF at 90Hz with a second order filter (12db per octave) would still work pretty well.

This is something that you can choose to be as exact on as you like, but it may be hard to hear a difference between the two examples I used.

Regards,
Mike
+1

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Originally Posted by Kevnmin View Post
I thought I'd give the cascading crossovers a try. I did find that reducing the LPF down to 80 hz does seem to improve the center channel dialogue. I wish there was an accurate way to measure with a UMIK-1? Or is this just more subjective and preference related?
Is cascading crossovers still a thing to be doing?
In addition, the third tier of cascading, is it better do at the actual subwoofer with knob or more accurately with MiniDSP?
All subjective and your preference to how it sound to you, not me or any one else
I use to anal to have a perfect flat line, after trying Cascading the Crossover. I much prefer the results for my current subs in my room.


Ray
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post #1252 of 1410 Old 05-14-2019, 06:13 AM
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Sub Trim

This morning, I ran Audyssey XT32 and have a question about subwoofer trim.

System: Marantz AV8805 pre/pro. Parasound Halo A52+ amplifier. SVS Ultra (L,C,R,SL,SR) and 2 SVS SB13 Ultra subwoofers. I listen to multichannel surround music (classical and jazz) and, of course, watch movies.

SW Level matching was about 75 to 78db. Audyssey set the subwoofer trim to -10 and -10.5. I would like extra bass so I changed the trim to -5 and -5.5. Is this the best procedure or should I leave the trim set by Audyssey and turn up the subwoofer volume about 5db?

Thanks. Marcus
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post #1253 of 1410 Old 05-14-2019, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Pilot View Post
This morning, I ran Audyssey XT32 and have a question about subwoofer trim.

System: Marantz AV8805 pre/pro. Parasound Halo A52+ amplifier. SVS Ultra (L,C,R,SL,SR) and 2 SVS SB13 Ultra subwoofers. I listen to multichannel surround music (classical and jazz) and, of course, watch movies.

SW Level matching was about 75 to 78db. Audyssey set the subwoofer trim to -10 and -10.5. I would like extra bass so I changed the trim to -5 and -5.5. Is this the best procedure or should I leave the trim set by Audyssey and turn up the subwoofer volume about 5db?

Thanks. Marcus

Hi Marcus,

What you did was just fine! There are a couple of variables here that I think are worth mentioning, though. If you think that either of the variables might apply in your circumstances, then I will make a suggestion. A lot depends on your listening volumes. If you rarely go over about -15 or so, with your master volume, then the variables will be less important.

First, there may be times when a movie doesn't seem to have as much audible or tactile bass that you will want to increase your subwoofer volume. As long as your master volume isn't much above -15, you could still use your trim controls to add another couple of decibels. Ideally, I wouldn't go much above -5, at higher master volume levels.

Second, if you ever feel that your SB13's are straining, you can actually achieve higher max output levels with those subwoofers, if the gain control is set closer to the max. Your current subwoofer boost is fairly modest, so again, unless your master volume level is high for a movie with a good deal of low-bass, that shouldn't be a problem. But remember, that if you are using DEQ, it will also be adding it's own subwoofer boost. It boosts the bass in all of the channels, and boosts most at subwoofer frequencies.

If either of those variables I listed is a concern to you, you could compromise by raising the gain levels (equally) on the two subs and dropping your trim levels down to about -8. You would just be seasoning to taste here, as you did when you raised the trim levels by 5db. That would give you several decibels of room to move either up or down in subwoofer volume by just using your AVR remote.

To reiterate my first sentence, what you did was perfectly fine. It is only if you want to allow yourself a little more margin that you might consider doing what I suggested. I like to tell people that although the advice in the Guide represents best practice recommendations, this really isn't something to obsess about too much. And then I remember that I am talking to fellow AVS members, where OCD is SOP.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #1254 of 1410 Old 05-15-2019, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Marcus,

What you did was just fine!
Regards,
Mike
Thanks Mike. I got REW up and running last weekend. Not enough time to do a proper test. Plus I am learning how to use it as well. I am not a perfectionist but I do want to make sure the subs do not have extreme peaks and nulls. I hope to have time this weekend.

Marcus
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post #1255 of 1410 Old 05-15-2019, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Marcus,

What you did was just fine! There are a couple of variables here that I think are worth mentioning, though. If you think that either of the variables might apply in your circumstances, then I will make a suggestion. A lot depends on your listening volumes. If you rarely go over about -15 or so, with your master volume, then the variables will be less important.

First, there may be times when a movie doesn't seem to have as much audible or tactile bass that you will want to increase your subwoofer volume. As long as your master volume isn't much above -15, you could still use your trim controls to add another couple of decibels. Ideally, I wouldn't go much above -5, at higher master volume levels.

Second, if you ever feel that your SB13's are straining, you can actually achieve higher max output levels with those subwoofers, if the gain control is set closer to the max. Your current subwoofer boost is fairly modest, so again, unless your master volume level is high for a movie with a good deal of low-bass, that shouldn't be a problem. But remember, that if you are using DEQ, it will also be adding it's own subwoofer boost. It boosts the bass in all of the channels, and boosts most at subwoofer frequencies.

If either of those variables I listed is a concern to you, you could compromise by raising the gain levels (equally) on the two subs and dropping your trim levels down to about -8. You would just be seasoning to taste here, as you did when you raised the trim levels by 5db. That would give you several decibels of room to move either up or down in subwoofer volume by just using your AVR remote.

To reiterate my first sentence, what you did was perfectly fine. It is only if you want to allow yourself a little more margin that you might consider doing what I suggested. I like to tell people that although the advice in the Guide represents best practice recommendations, this really isn't something to obsess about too much. And then I remember that I am talking to fellow AVS members, where OCD is SOP.

Regards,
Mike
Hi Mike,

Doing my set up the same way. When calibrating I ended up at -9.5 in AVR and -16 sub volume. Decided I liked about 5-6 db extra with DEQ off. Started with upping the AVR to -5.5 and the rest via sub gain but then thought why potential cause the AVR issues as my movie listening is from -8 to -15. So i simply added 1-2 db in the AVR not going more than -7.5 and he rest in the PB to get my 5-6 db extra. Honestly doing it this way I could probably drop a 1-2 db as its a bit more robust using sub amp.
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post #1256 of 1410 Old 05-16-2019, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
+1



All subjective and your preference to how it sound to you, not me or any one else
I use to anal to have a perfect flat line, after trying Cascading the Crossover. I much prefer the results for my current subs in my room.


Ray
Hi Ray,

I think cascading is the way to go especially with ported like my PB16. I went away from cascading for a few weeks and found myself grabbing the remote during music to turn on the PEQ option in music mode to give me that bit extra with pre 90s music. In cascading mode it was there so I guess that's the point. I know people advise against the cascading option especially without measurements SVS staff included but its know the 16 has a bit of an issue in the mid bass department. As for settings I think and correct me if I'm wrong that the Hz setting for cascading is more important for the front sound stage and subwoofer than with the rears.
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post #1257 of 1410 Old 05-16-2019, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigzee3 View Post
Hi Ray,

I think cascading is the way to go especially with ported like my PB16. I went away from cascading for a few weeks and found myself grabbing the remote during music to turn on the PEQ option in music mode to give me that bit extra with pre 90s music. In cascading mode it was there so I guess that's the point. I know people advise against the cascading option especially without measurements SVS staff included but its know the 16 has a bit of an issue in the mid bass department. As for settings I think and correct me if I'm wrong that the Hz setting for cascading is more important for the front sound stage and subwoofer than with the rears.
First, glad Cascading Crossover work well for you
I know for me it is my new preference. When it come to bass sound.

For your question. The answer is both a mix of Yes and No.
Are your front crossovers setting, more important than the rears (surrounds/ceiling speakers). The answer is Yes, while some surrounds can be also set at the same value.
Like I use with my towers and center, and also my 4 surrounds and two of my ceiling speakers been 80Hz. My rear ceiling ones are set at 90Hz, due to a vibration problem from one of them (always change the setting in pair).
Since not all bookshelf's are create equal, nothing wrong using a higher crossover point.

For the Cascading Crossover, it should only affect the sub/s frequencies. Since it involve changing the LFE setting from your AVR and the higher frequencies set on your sub/s can play.
By this last sentence, I mean both would set at 80/90Hz, instead of the normal 120Hz default (LFE on the AVR, and the sub/s max frequencies cut off).

As a side note, the PEQ do affect not only the sub/s. But all other speakers to a smaller extend.
Therefore my preference is to have the PEQ set to Off.


Darth
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Last edited by darthray; 05-16-2019 at 06:38 PM.
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post #1258 of 1410 Old 05-16-2019, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
First, glad Cascading Crossover work well for you
I know for me it is my new preference. When it come to bass sound.

For your question. The answer is both a mix of Yes and No.
Are your front crossovers setting, more important than the rears (surrounds/ceiling speakers). The answer is Yes, while some surrounds can be also set at the same value.
Like I use with my towers and center, and also my 4 surrounds and two of my ceiling speakers been 80Hz. My rear ceiling ones are set at 90Hz, due to a vibration problem from one of them (always change the setting in pair).
Since not all bookshelf's are create equal, nothing wrong using a higher crossover point.

For the Cascading Crossover, it should only affect the sub/s frequencies. Since it involve changing the LFE setting from your AVR and the higher frequencies set on your sub/s can play.
By this last sentence, I mean both would set at 80/90Hz, instead of the normal 120Hz default (LFE on the AVR, and the sub/s max frequencies cut off).

As a side note, the PEQ do affect not only the sub/s. But all other speakers to a smaller extend.
Therefore my preference is to have the PEQ set to Off.


Darth
I'm similar. My fronts and center are 80hz, my surrounds and ceilings are 100hz...I set the LPF of LFE to 80hz and the knob on back of my sub to max which is 90hz. It's to inaccurate to try to get that to 80hz.
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post #1259 of 1410 Old 05-16-2019, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
I'm similar. My fronts and center are 80hz, my surrounds and ceilings are 100hz...I set the LPF of LFE to 80hz and the knob on back of my sub to max which is 90hz. It's to inaccurate to try to get that to 80hz.

+1
Those knob can be indeed inaccurate, and 90Hz is very close to 80Hz.


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post #1260 of 1410 Old 05-17-2019, 08:17 AM
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This may be of interest to some since it comes up frequently. Often people boost the sub level ~ 5db or so post Audyssey calibration. I recently compared the onboard XT32 with the Audyssey App. It seems that the app sets the subs 3 dB higher than the AVR version. When I tested, it was back to back 8 position with no changes to anything in the setup. A couple others here have noticed the same difference. The other thing I noticed is the other speakers in the app version were generally a bit lower, but I cant say if that was just error from mic positions not being precisely the same.

BTW, I realize that I wouldnt want to run the -12 level and am not. Its just the way the results came out and the 3 dB level change is consistent with both subs. After back to back 8 pos runs, I wasnt about to redo it!

Anyway, just info if you are using the app to keep in mind.


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Last edited by sjm817; 05-17-2019 at 08:28 AM.
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