Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences - Page 44 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1291 of 1605 Old 05-29-2019, 06:46 PM
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So far it sounds more detailed, I can hear the mid-bass now, where as before it was stepped on, for lack of a better term, by the sub. I do have a question if you can answer it? By having the LPF on the sub at 80hz, it will still play the lower hz stuff right, like 20hz and down? I didn't limit my sub to only play 80 hz frequencies right? I only limited it from playing higher than 80hz, correct?

Correct, it will not affect any frequencies lower than 80Hz. Only the ones above, by having a steeper roll off since no crossover is a brick wall.


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Thank you sir. It sounds way better now. Just a cleaner overall sound.
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post #1292 of 1605 Old 06-01-2019, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HYPURR DBL NKL View Post
Okay I am no mthomas47, but I want to describe what I hear after doing this to see if what I hear is possible. I have a 5.1.2 set up using an SVS PB-2000 sub. Mains are at 80hz, Center is at 80hz, Surrounds 90hz and my 2 Atmos speakers 90hz. LPF LFE @ 80hz in AVR and Low Pass Filter @ 80hz on sub. First the center channel sounds clearer. The bass sounds, not sure how to describe this technically, sounds fuller but not bloated, more punchy and cleaner. It seems to stop quicker, like the difference between a less capable sub where the bass lingers and a good one that is fast and the bass notes hit and stop. The whole system sounds more articulate. I haven't had a chance to crank it up yet. But so far it sounds good. Is what I described on par with how my system should have reacted with how it is set up? Just curious, TIA.

Edited to fix Mike's screen name. I had the "m" capitalized at first.

Phil, whom I am quoting above, sent me a PM asking me if I could explain why he hears more clarity and punchier bass after implementing cascading crossovers. Although I tried to address the issue in Section III-C: Cascading Crossovers, linked below, I decided to add more detail to that section. And, since I haven't posted on my own thread much lately, I decided to share the additional explanation in this post.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...nces.html#IIIC

To me, the relative increase in punchy bass is easier to explain. The subs are cutting-out more quickly--literally seeming to stop on a dime; more bass is being concentrated in the range where most people feel chest punch (<100Hz); and the mid-bass impacts accordingly sound and feel stronger.

The slightly more difficult phenomenon to explain is why we may hear more overall clarity, and I can address that explanation best by using the human voice, and the speech in movies, as an example. I will quote the older material from Section III-C first, and then add the new material starting with the asterisk. I should note that my initial experiments with cascading crossovers started at 100Hz, and then 90Hz, and finally 80Hz. I took my time, and made note of my impressions. I settled on 80Hz and have been extremely pleased with that setting. Here is the newly edited portion of that section:


"What I found when I tried this was that my mid-bass frequencies (up to 100Hz) seemed relatively louder than they had been, and my overall bass clarity improved. I especially noticed that I didn't have to boost my center channel as much as I had been doing, in order to hear clear dialogue. I think this is due to two factors. First, the higher bass content that had been played by my subwoofers was making the front speakers and surrounds a little heavy-sounding in proportion to the somewhat smaller center channel. And, second, since I was already using a heavy subwoofer boost, cutting-off the subs a little quicker imparted less bass coloration to the voices coming from the CC.

This is one of the reasons that I personally prefer not to use DEQ. I don't like boosting the bass in the center channel, with the voice coloration that I notice when I do that. Deep male voices typically only go down to a fundamental frequency of about 90Hz, so bass boosts above that frequency may make men's voices sound unnaturally thick and chesty to some people. As noted in other sections, however, whether we notice that sort of thing, or care about it, is strictly a YMMV issue. (I make up for not using DEQ by implementing a much more substantial subwoofer boost for movies.)


* I decided to add a little more detail to the explanation of why we may hear more mid-bass and overall clarity when bass boosts don't go above about 80 or 90Hz. Using voices is an excellent way to describe what I think is happening, and that is where I personally notice the additional clarity the most. The human voice is actually an instrument with a large frequency range. I said that bass boosts above 80 or 90Hz may potentially make male voices sound "chesty". In vocal music, a chest sound is deeper and more resonant than a head tone, which is produced higher in the voice box. The chest tone requires more air, and it resonates lower in the voice box than the head tone does, but it can also sound "throatier", and it has less clarity or "brilliance".

Some consonants, such as "B", "C", "D", "G", "T", "V", and "Z" which all share the same long "ee" sound, may be more difficult to distinguish if they are pronounced with too much chest tone. Some vowels can also be harder to distinguish if more bass sound is added to them, because the voice will sound slightly thicker. I believe that is especially the case if the person speaking has a strong accent, or if he fails to articulate clearly, or if ambient noises in the soundtrack make voices harder to hear clearly to start with.

(When someone articulates, he says each syllable of a word clearly and distinctly. James Earl Jones is a great example of a person with a very deep and resonant voice who is nevertheless very easy to understand. But, he had a speech impediment as a child and worked very hard to learn to speak slowly and with excellent articulation. Most actors do not have that style of speech and that kind of articulate diction.)

Remember also that if subwoofers are strongly boosted, with the normal 80Hz crossover in the AVR, they are only rolling-off at 24db per octave above 80Hz. So, at 100Hz, the subwoofer has only rolled-off by 6db and can still provide quite a lot of bass coloration to male voices. To me, that can make the voices sound a little unnatural as well as more difficult to understand. So, where I may not mind a little additional bass resonance in some music (the cello or the kettle drum, for instance), I may not like it quite as much for some other instruments. And, where I absolutely want it for the low-bass special effects in movies (well below an 80Hz crossover), I may not want that extra resonance at all where the human voice is concerned.

I found that as I implemented cascading crossovers at 100Hz, and then at 90Hz, and finally at 80Hz, I was able to concentrate a little more bass below 100Hz, and then below 90Hz, and then below 80Hz. And, not only did the mid-bass clarity improve with each attempt, but my mid-bass tactile response also increased as a result. That chest punch sensation is explained in detail in Section VII, but briefly, most people seem to feel the sensation most strongly between about 50Hz and 100Hz.

There is some evidence that the sensation may peak for most of us at around 63Hz. That specific number was the conclusion of one study I read years ago, and some subwoofer makers, such as SVS, provide the capability to add a pre-programmed peak at that frequency into their higher-end subwoofer models which have advanced PEQ. If we make our subwoofers roll-off more quickly above 80Hz, by implementing a 48db per octave filter, we are doubling the roll-off. So, although there is still some transition between speakers and subwoofers, the subwoofers have rolled-off by 12db at 100Hz, and 24db at 120Hz. And, we are increasing the 'punchiness' of the bass in the range where most people feel those chest punch sensations most strongly. *


I offer this method of cascading crossovers as a means of potentially obtaining additional mid-bass SPL and chest punch, combined with potential improvements in overall bass clarity. (The clarity was the real key for me, but again, I use a lot of subwoofer boost for movies.) Determining where to set the LPF in the subwoofers themselves, and what slope to select if that is an option, is something which may require some individual experimentation. But, in my personal opinion, it may turn-out to be an excellent solution for someone wanting to maximize mid-bass SPL and clarity."


Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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HI guys, Recently purchased a pair of Rythmic FV25HPs that I was integrating with a MiniDSP 2x4. I since have relocated one of the subs and it is now exactly equidistant from the MLP on the same wall as the other sub. Basically 1/4 and 3/4 position on back wall. I would prefer to use a XLR Y-Splitter and remove the mini-dsp from the equation. Is there any downside to that and are there any concerns/harm that can be caused to the actual subs by doing that?

Sorry...tried searching but couldn't find anything to this specific question? Ha! I'm sure its in here somewhere!

Thanks Much - Paul

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post #1294 of 1605 Old 06-01-2019, 09:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dinamigym View Post
HI guys, Recently purchased a pair of Rythmic FV25HPs that I was integrating with a MiniDSP 2x4. I since have relocated one of the subs and it is now exactly equidistant from the MLP on the same wall as the other sub. Basically 1/4 and 3/4 position on back wall. I would prefer to use a XLR Y-Splitter and remove the mini-dsp from the equation. Is there any downside to that and are there any concerns/harm that can be caused to the actual subs by doing that?

Sorry...tried searching but couldn't find anything to this specific question? Ha! I'm sure its in here somewhere!

Thanks Much - Paul

Hi Paul,

In general, where subs are equidistant from the MLP and on the same wall, there shouldn't be any reason at all not to use a Y-connector. As long as you get a good frequency response that way, and aren't using the miniDSP to implement Bass EQ, you shouldn't need to have the miniDSP in the system.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #1295 of 1605 Old 06-01-2019, 09:09 AM
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Thanks for the quick response Mike! Much appreciated!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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post #1296 of 1605 Old 06-01-2019, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by HYPURR DBL NKL View Post
Okay I am no mthomas47, but I want to describe what I hear after doing this to see if what I hear is possible. I have a 5.1.2 set up using an SVS PB-2000 sub. Mains are at 80hz, Center is at 80hz, Surrounds 90hz and my 2 Atmos speakers 90hz. LPF LFE @ 80hz in AVR and Low Pass Filter @ 80hz on sub. First the center channel sounds clearer. The bass sounds, not sure how to describe this technically, sounds fuller but not bloated, more punchy and cleaner. It seems to stop quicker, like the difference between a less capable sub where the bass lingers and a good one that is fast and the bass notes hit and stop. The whole system sounds more articulate. I haven't had a chance to crank it up yet. But so far it sounds good. Is what I described on par with how my system should have reacted with how it is set up? Just curious, TIA.

Edited to fix Mike's screen name. I had the "m" capitalized at first.

Phil, who I am quoting above, sent me a PM asking me if I could explain why he hears more clarity and punchier bass after implementing cascading crossovers. Although I tried to address the issue in Section III-C: Cascading Crossovers, linked below, I decided to add more detail to that section. And, since I haven't posted on my own thread much lately, [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG] I decided to share the additional explanation in this post.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...nces.html#IIIC

To me, the relative increase in punchy bass is easier to explain. The subs are cutting-out more quickly--literally stopping on a dime; more bass is being concentrated in the range where most people feel chest punch (<100Hz); and the mid-bass impacts accordingly sound and feel stronger.

The slightly more difficult phenomenon to explain is why we may hear more overall clarity, and I can address that explanation best by using the human voice, and the speech in movies, as an example. I will quote the older material from Section III-C first, and then add the new material starting with the asterisk. I should note that my initial experiments with cascading crossovers started at 100Hz, and then 90Hz, and finally 80Hz. I took my time, and made note of my impressions. I settled on 80Hz and have been extremely pleased with that setting. Here is the newly edited portion of that section:


"What I found when I tried this was that my mid-bass frequencies (up to 100Hz) seemed relatively louder than they had been, and my overall bass clarity improved. I especially noticed that I didn't have to boost my center channel as much as I had been doing, in order to hear clear dialogue. I think this is due to two factors. First, the higher bass content that had been played by my subwoofers was making the front speakers and surrounds a little heavy-sounding in proportion to the somewhat smaller center channel. And, second, since I was already using a heavy subwoofer boost, cutting-off the subs a little quicker imparted less bass coloration to the voices coming from the CC.

This is one of the reasons that I personally prefer not to use DEQ. I don't like boosting the bass in the center channel, with the voice coloration that I notice when I do that. Deep male voices typically only go down to a fundamental frequency of about 90Hz, so bass boosts above that frequency may make men's voices sound unnaturally thick and chesty to some people. As noted in other sections, however, whether we notice that sort of thing, or care about it, is strictly a YMMV issue. (I make up for not using DEQ by implementing a much more substantial subwoofer boost for movies.)


* I decided to add a little more detail to the explanation of why we may hear more mid-range clarity when bass boosts don't go above about 80 or 90Hz. Using voices is an excellent way to describe what I think is happening, and that is where I personally notice the additional clarity the most. The human voice is actually an instrument with a large frequency range. I said that bass boosts above 80 or 90Hz may potentially make male voices sound "chesty". In vocal music, a chest sound is deeper and more resonant than a head tone, which is produced higher in the voice box. The chest tone requires more air, and it resonates lower in the voice box than the head tone does, but it can also sound "throatier", and it has less clarity or "brilliance".

Some consonants, such as "B", "C", "D", "G", "T", "V", and "Z" which all share an "e" sound, may be more difficult to distinguish if they are pronounced with too much chest tone. Some vowels can also be harder to distinguish if more bass sound is added to them. I believe that is especially the case if the person speaking has a strong accent, or if he fails to articulate clearly, or if ambient noises in the soundtrack make voices harder to hear clearly to start with. (James Earl Jones is a great example of a person with a very deep and resonant voice who is nevertheless very easy to understand. But, he had a speech impediment as a child and worked very hard to learn to speak slowly and with excellent articulation. Most actors do not have that style of speech and gift of articulation.)

Remember also that if subwoofers are strongly boosted, with the normal 80Hz crossover in the AVR, they are only rolling-off at 24db per octave above 80Hz. So, at 100Hz, the subwoofer has only rolled-off by 6db and can still provide quite a lot of bass coloration to male voices. To me, that can make the voices sound a little unnatural as well as more difficult to understand. So, where I may like a little additional resonance in some music (the cello or kettle drum, for instance), and where I absolutely want it for the low-bass special effects in movies (well below an 80Hz crossover), I may not want that extra resonance at all where the human voice is concerned.

I found that as I implemented cascading crossovers at 100Hz, and then at 90Hz, and finally at 80Hz, I was able to concentrate a little more bass below 100Hz, and then below 90Hz, and then below 80Hz. And, not only did the mid-bass clarity improve with each attempt, but my mid-bass tactile response also increased as a result. That chest punch sensation is explained in detail in Section VII, but briefly, most people seem to feel the sensation most strongly between about 50Hz and 100Hz.

There is some evidence that the sensation may peak for most of us at around 63Hz. That specific number was the conclusion of one study I read years ago, and some subwoofer makers, such as SVS, provide the capability to add a pre-programmed peak at that frequency into their higher-end subwoofer models which have advanced PEQ. If we make our subwoofers roll-off more quickly above 80Hz, by implementing a 48db per octave filter, we are literally making them stop on a dime. And, we are increasing the 'punchiness' of the bass in the range where most people feel those chest punch sensations most strongly. *


I offer this method of cascading crossovers as a means of potentially obtaining additional mid-bass SPL and chest punch, combined with potential improvements in overall bass clarity. (The clarity was the real key for me, but again, I use a lot of subwoofer boost for movies.) Determining where to set the LPF in the subwoofers themselves, and what slope to select if that is an option, is something which may require some individual experimentation. But, in my personal opinion, it may turn-out to be an excellent solution, for someone wanting to maximize mid-bass SPL and clarity."


Regards,
Mike
Mike as always amazing write up and thank you for that. Explained it perfectly. Like I told ya in PM, I for one appreciate your tremendous effort and contribution to this site. I have no way to give ya a like on my phone, consider this my like. Thank you again.
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post #1297 of 1605 Old 06-01-2019, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by dinamigym View Post
HI guys, Recently purchased a pair of Rythmic FV25HPs that I was integrating with a MiniDSP 2x4. I since have relocated one of the subs and it is now exactly equidistant from the MLP on the same wall as the other sub. Basically 1/4 and 3/4 position on back wall. I would prefer to use a XLR Y-Splitter and remove the mini-dsp from the equation. Is there any downside to that and are there any concerns/harm that can be caused to the actual subs by doing that?

Sorry...tried searching but couldn't find anything to this specific question? Ha! I'm sure its in here somewhere!

Thanks Much - Paul
No need to be sorry, we are all here to learn

And thinking to do something similar, once I got my new subs.
Since my main MLP is center compare to the side walls. And the next second MLP spot is on my right, for my Wife.
I intend to try this first, to see how it sound and measure. On my first run.

Front sub, 2/3 from the front wall to the MLP's (at around 12ft from the front wall in a 18ft long room). Second sub, 1/3 from the back wall to the MLP's (6ft) distance.
Both subs will be at around 3-4ft from the right wall (in a 12ft wide room), since if the subs are sitting center from the sidewalls. It might create other frequencies cancellation problems.


Darth
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post #1298 of 1605 Old 06-01-2019, 02:03 PM
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No need to be sorry, we are all here to learn

And thinking to do something similar, once I got my new subs.
Since my main MLP is center compare to the side walls. And the next second spot is on my right.
I intend to try this first, to see how it sound and measure.
Front sub, 2/3 from the front wall to the MLP's (at around 12ft from the front wall in a 18ft long room). Second sub, 1/3 from the back wall to the MLP's (6ft) distance.
Thank you Ray! Cant wait for you to get your FV18s. Love to hear your thoughts once you've had a chance to play around a bit! . Honestly, had they been in stock when I ordered, I may have gone that direction.

Thanks,
Paul
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post #1299 of 1605 Old 06-01-2019, 02:13 PM
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Thank you Ray! Cant wait for you to get your FV18s. Love to hear your thoughts once you've had a chance to play around a bit! . Honestly, had they been in stock when I ordered, I may have gone that direction.

Thanks,
Paul
Thanks Paul

It will be a little while for me to get them, since I have learn many years ago. Patience is your best friend, to get what you want and doing-it right the first time. And be sure, I will post my thought on the Rythmik thread when this happen. A year or so from now
And might have gone with yours's dual FV25HPs, if it was not about the difference in price. Since when buying from the US, it cost about double here. But such is life


Darth
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Using voices is an excellent way to describe what I think is happening, and that is where I personally notice the additional clarity the most. The human voice is actually an instrument with a large frequency range. I said that bass boosts above 80 or 90Hz may potentially make male voices sound "chesty". In vocal music, a chest sound is deeper and more resonant than a head tone, which is produced higher in the voice box. The chest tone requires more air, and it resonates lower in the voice box than the head tone does, but it can also sound "throatier", and it has less clarity or "brilliance".
I have been cascading crossovers for years and voices were one of the driving forces behind it for me. For whatever reason I'm particularly sensitive to 'chesty' voices and if they sound the least bit heavy - when they aren't supposed to - I find it very distracting. I am also a fanatic for precision and detail, I love to hear every little nuance. When a subwoofer is still audibly contributing above the crossover point it seems to detract from the experience. Since I don't personally know anyone else who has the same difficulty I just assumed it was a unique sensitivity. Reading how so many others have benefitted from making the same adjustment has made me realize perhaps I am not in a band of one, that there are others who feel similarly. That's why you see me place so much emphasis on voices in my speaker reviews, it one of the criteria I'm most aware of.
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post #1301 of 1605 Old 06-01-2019, 06:19 PM
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Wow, trying to read through all of this has made me go cross eyed and mush in the head lol. The issue I'm running into with my sub (PB12-Plus) is that it sounds muddled. My AVR is a Yamaha RX-V581.I've called SVS and had them run me through the setup, It helped a little but still getting muddled or punchy mid bass. I have 4 different places I can adjust the sub, 1. on the Sub itself 2. in the Speaker Level after calibration 3. in the Tone Control section and 4. in the Volume Trim section.


I was advised to only adjust the Sub to a max of -5db and to only change it on the AVR in the Trim Level. I've been messing around with all settings to try and get a happy medium, but to no avail. My current settings are as follows:


Crossover 60Hz
Sub -5db
AVR Speaker Menu: Sub -5db
Tone Control: Bypass
Volume Trim: +2


Any other things I should try before starting from scratch? I've already done the sub crawl and it's in the best location for my limited placement options. On another note I've had this sub in the past paired with a Pioneer receiver and know that it can sound great. PS if anyone is in the Phoenix area and wants to help me dial it in, ill provide Food and drinks
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post #1302 of 1605 Old 06-02-2019, 05:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow, trying to read through all of this has made me go cross eyed and mush in the head lol. The issue I'm running into with my sub (PB12-Plus) is that it sounds muddled. My AVR is a Yamaha RX-V581.I've called SVS and had them run me through the setup, It helped a little but still getting muddled or punchy mid bass. I have 4 different places I can adjust the sub, 1. on the Sub itself 2. in the Speaker Level after calibration 3. in the Tone Control section and 4. in the Volume Trim section.


I was advised to only adjust the Sub to a max of -5db and to only change it on the AVR in the Trim Level. I've been messing around with all settings to try and get a happy medium, but to no avail. My current settings are as follows:


Crossover 60Hz
Sub -5db
AVR Speaker Menu: Sub -5db
Tone Control: Bypass
Volume Trim: +2


Any other things I should try before starting from scratch? I've already done the sub crawl and it's in the best location for my limited placement options. On another note I've had this sub in the past paired with a Pioneer receiver and know that it can sound great. PS if anyone is in the Phoenix area and wants to help me dial it in, ill provide Food and drinks

Hi,

I'm sorry you are having problems! Although I know it sounds as if you provided a lot of information, that's really not a lot to go on, but I will try to provide some preliminary thoughts.

First, even though the sub is in the best spot, if it is in a corner, you might try pulling the sub a little further out from the wall. That could help. Subwoofers which are in corners, or near walls, can often have a muddled one-note bass sound. Reducing the boundary effect may help with the overall clarity.

Second, after you move the sub further away from a boundary, you can experiment with some settings. With a 60Hz crossover, it's your speakers and not your sub that are playing most of the mid-bass. If your mid-bass sounds too muddled and punchy, there are two preliminary adjustments you can try. You can increase the crossover, so that your subwoofer is playing more of the mid-bass, and you can turn down its volume a little in the process.

Third, you can also use the tone control, to take away a little of the mid-bass from your front speakers. Start with -1 and try going down in bass volume with the tone controls from there. The tone controls will only affect speakers on your front soundstage and they will only reduce the bass above your crossover. I don't know which of the setting changes might work better, so I would try approaching it systematically. You can experiment with the crossovers, the sub volume and the tone control, in an effort to reduce the punchiness.

Fourth, despite the advice from whomever you talked to at SVS, I'm not crazy about you having your AVR trim level that high. Depending somewhat on your master volume level, a higher trim setting could be causing the sub to clip, or to compress the signal. The lowest frequencies would compress first, so compression could cause the mid-bass to sound stronger than it should.

If I were you, I would reduce my trim level to no higher than -3, even if it meant raising my subwoofer gain closer to 0. As I understand it, the gains on some of the older SVS subs need to be near the max setting for the subwoofer to achieve its max output levels. If the subwoofer is straining, it may be compressing the bass, as described earlier. And, keeping the trim control in the negative range is a good way to prevent clipping, which can also be audible in some cases.

Fifth, your Yamaha won't allow you to change the LPF of LFE from its default setting of 120Hz. But, you can also try reducing the low-pass filter on your Plus to about 80Hz. As discussed in the post just up the page from yours, cascading your crossovers at about 80Hz can often increase mid-bass clarity.

As noted, it can be difficult to know what might work, based on the information provided. But, I would go through the steps I have outlined, in a systematic fashion, trying to find a placement/setting combination that provided some improvement. You can take some time with this if necessary.

I hope that some combination of these measures works. Please let us know whether anything worked, after you have tried all this.

Regards,
Mike
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Thanks Mike for that great information. I did pull the sub out a bit more from the wall. I have it center stage in my setup. I re-ran the calibration and its sounding better, as it has the crossover set to 100hz. I'm thinking at the 60hz level it was affecting the mid bass as you had mentioned. I will adjust the Low Pass Filter to 80hz on the sub and see how that sounds. I usually don't mess with the Trim Level but I was used to the Pioneer and always had to give it a 3 point bump due to the Audyssey on the older AVR's. I will go over the other adjustments that you mentioned trying and see if I can get it up to par with what I know this sub can sound like.



Again thank you for helping out! This stuff can be a lot to take in, hence why my brain went to mush trying to process everything lol
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Originally Posted by johnnyknoxsvill View Post
Thanks Mike for that great information. I did pull the sub out a bit more from the wall. I have it center stage in my setup. I re-ran the calibration and its sounding better, as it has the crossover set to 100hz. I'm thinking at the 60hz level it was affecting the mid bass as you had mentioned. I will adjust the Low Pass Filter to 80hz on the sub and see how that sounds. I usually don't mess with the Trim Level but I was used to the Pioneer and always had to give it a 3 point bump due to the Audyssey on the older AVR's. I will go over the other adjustments that you mentioned trying and see if I can get it up to par with what I know this sub can sound like.

Again thank you for helping out! This stuff can be a lot to take in, hence why my brain went to mush trying to process everything lol

You are very welcome, and I'm glad that some of the suggestions helped! This stuff can definitely be complicated. It can take a while to digest it sufficiently to know how the different settings work in conjunction with each other. As an example of that, if you intend to leave your crossover to your front speakers set to 100Hz, I would probably set the subwoofer LPF to that same 100Hz as well, instead of trying the 80Hz setting. The 80Hz LPF on the sub would be for an 80Hz crossover in the AVR.
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Originally Posted by johnnyknoxsvill View Post
Thanks Mike for that great information. I did pull the sub out a bit more from the wall. I have it center stage in my setup. I re-ran the calibration and its sounding better, as it has the crossover set to 100hz. I'm thinking at the 60hz level it was affecting the mid bass as you had mentioned. I will adjust the Low Pass Filter to 80hz on the sub and see how that sounds. I usually don't mess with the Trim Level but I was used to the Pioneer and always had to give it a 3 point bump due to the Audyssey on the older AVR's. I will go over the other adjustments that you mentioned trying and see if I can get it up to par with what I know this sub can sound like.

Again thank you for helping out! This stuff can be a lot to take in, hence why my brain went to mush trying to process everything lol
Don't worry about your brain feeling like mush, lots of info in this guide to be process.
Reading-it a few time, and slowly. Will help, since there is too much info for a first read.

Can you define "center stage" MLP, sub or both?
Most of us know sitting in the middle of a room for MLP, is one of the worst position.
That said, that said if the Center position is bad for the Length. It also apply to the Width of the room, not only the Length.
When looking at the Harmon Calculator, I saw the first wave having a big dip for the Length and Width of my room.
Wish I could post a graph, the next best thing is the link;
https://www.harman.com/room-mode-calculator

And this got me thinking, if the MLP is bad in the center position.
Having a sub in the center of either Length and Width , of the room could also results in deep cancelation of lower frequencies.
Since I always had my subs at around 1/3 from each left/right walls, with descent results.
With my MLP been center to the Width of the room, and close to 1/3 from the back wall.
Having a sub off center of the room, could result in better response.

Just more stuff, for your brain to be mush around
And if wrong in my thinking, Mike @mthomas47 can always correct me on this forum


Darth
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Fourth, despite the advice from whomever you talked to at SVS, I'm not crazy about you having your AVR trim level that high. Depending somewhat on your master volume level, a higher trim setting could be causing the sub to clip, or to compress the signal. The lowest frequencies would compress first, so compression could cause the mid-bass to sound stronger than it should.

If I were you, I would reduce my trim level to no higher than -3, even if it meant raising my subwoofer gain closer to 0. As I understand it, the gains on some of the older SVS subs need to be near the max setting for the subwoofer to achieve its max output levels. If the subwoofer is straining, it may be compressing the bass, as described earlier. And, keeping the trim control in the negative range is a good way to prevent clipping, which can also be audible in some cases.
Confused, thought we were looking for a high number -5 dB or greater after an Audyssey run, so as to let the subwoofer’s amp do more of the amplifying, instead of the AVR. I finally got my subs gain control knob to a point that Audyssey shows a -7db, post run. Figured now I can simply use the Denon 3500’s, OPTION: “Channel Level Adjust” feature to add some bass boost on just the subwoofer channel. Maybe I’m misreading, but it almost seems your advice here is the opposite? Thanks.

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Confused, thought we were looking for a high number -5 dB or greater after an Audyssey run, so as to let the subwoofer’s amp do more of the amplifying, instead of the AVR. I finally got my subs gain control knob to a point that Audyssey shows a -7db, post run. Figured now I can simply use the Denon 3500’s, OPTION: “Channel Level Adjust” feature to add some bass boost on just the subwoofer channel. Maybe I’m misreading, but it almost seems your advice here is the opposite? Thanks.

Hi,

I'm sorry if something I said seemed confusing. What you are doing sounds fine to me. But, if you want to add more than a couple of decibels of subwoofer boost, I would recommend using your subwoofer gain so that you aren't going above about -5. Remember that negative numbers are the opposite of positive numbers. So, -5 is a higher setting than -7, and you are adjusting upward for more volume as you approach 0.0.

What we are usually looking for is a nice negative trim number, such as -5, after we have added whatever trim boost we want to add. So, for instance, with a Denon/Marantz AVR with Audyssey, we might aim for a calibration setting of -11 and leave ourselves up to about 6db of upward adjustment in the AVR trim without exceeding about -5. And, we would increase our gain setting, during the calibration process, so that Audyssey would set that initial negative number of about -10 or -11.

But, the OP has a Yamaha AVR, and I was advising him to reduce his AVR trim level from +2 where he had it, into negative numbers, and to be conservative, I suggested a target of -3 instead of the usual -5. I also advised him to increase his sub gain, if necessary, in order to compensate for the reduction in trim level.

Denon/Marantz AVR's always send plenty of voltage to the subwoofer for low trim levels--even for -7 or -9 settings. Some Yamaha AVR's do not. Not being sure which Yamaha AVR the OP had, or whether it would turn-on the sub automatically, I was more conservative in my advice. There is no absolute rule to this which is applicable in all cases. The -5 recommendation is just a pretty good general guideline that we can use.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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Confused, thought we were looking for a high number -5 dB or greater after an Audyssey run, so as to let the subwoofer’s amp do more of the amplifying, instead of the AVR. I finally got my subs gain control knob to a point that Audyssey shows a -7db, post run. Figured now I can simply use the Denon 3500’s, OPTION: “Channel Level Adjust” feature to add some bass boost on just the subwoofer channel. Maybe I’m misreading, but it almost seems your advice here is the opposite? Thanks.
On the AVR, you are looking at -5 dB or lower. Not greater.
This is when you adjust the trim level on your sub/s, to achieve this level on your AVR.
At -7 dB post Audyssey run on your AVR, adjust your preference from your AVR using the Channel Level Adjust.


Darth
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I'm sorry you are having problems! Although I know it sounds as if you provided a lot of information, that's really not a lot to go on, but I will try to provide some preliminary thoughts.

First, even though the sub is in the best spot, if it is in a corner, you might try pulling the sub a little further out from the wall. That could help. Subwoofers which are in corners, or near walls, can often have a muddled one-note bass sound. Reducing the boundary effect may help with the overall clarity.

Second, after you move the sub further away from a boundary, you can experiment with some settings. With a 60Hz crossover, it's your speakers and not your sub that are playing most of the mid-bass. If your mid-bass sounds too muddled and punchy, there are two preliminary adjustments you can try. You can increase the crossover, so that your subwoofer is playing more of the mid-bass, and you can turn down its volume a little in the process.

Third, you can also use the tone control, to take away a little of the mid-bass from your front speakers. Start with -1 and try going down in bass volume with the tone controls from there. The tone controls will only affect speakers on your front soundstage and they will only reduce the bass above your crossover. I don't know which of the setting changes might work better, so I would try approaching it systematically. You can experiment with the crossovers, the sub volume and the tone control, in an effort to reduce the punchiness.

Fourth, despite the advice from whomever you talked to at SVS, I'm not crazy about you having your AVR trim level that high. Depending somewhat on your master volume level, a higher trim setting could be causing the sub to clip, or to compress the signal. The lowest frequencies would compress first, so compression could cause the mid-bass to sound stronger than it should.

If I were you, I would reduce my trim level to no higher than -3, even if it meant raising my subwoofer gain closer to 0. As I understand it, the gains on some of the older SVS subs need to be near the max setting for the subwoofer to achieve its max output levels. If the subwoofer is straining, it may be compressing the bass, as described earlier. And, keeping the trim control in the negative range is a good way to prevent clipping, which can also be audible in some cases.

Fifth, your Yamaha won't allow you to change the LPF of LFE from its default setting of 120Hz. But, you can also try reducing the low-pass filter on your Plus to about 80Hz. As discussed in the post just up the page from yours, cascading your crossovers at about 80Hz can often increase mid-bass clarity.

As noted, it can be difficult to know what might work, based on the information provided. But, I would go through the steps I have outlined, in a systematic fashion, trying to find a placement/setting combination that provided some improvement. You can take some time with this if necessary.

I hope that some combination of these measures works. Please let us know whether anything worked, after you have tried all this.

Regards,
Mike
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Hi,

I'm sorry if something I said seemed confusing. What you are doing sounds just right to me. What we are usually looking for is a nice negative trim number, such as -5, after we have added whatever trim boost we want to add. So, for instance, with a Denon/Marantz AVR with Audyssey, we might aim for a calibration setting of -11 and leave ourselves up to about 6db of upward adjustment in the AVR trim without exceeding about -5. And, we would increase our gain setting, during the calibration process, so that Audyssey would set that initial negative number of about -10 or -11.

But, the OP has a Yamaha AVR, and I was advising him to reduce his AVR trim level from +2 where he had it, into negative numbers, and to be conservative, I suggested a target of -3 instead of the usual -5. I also advised him to increase his sub gain, if necessary, in order to compensate for the reduction in trim level.

Denon/Marantz AVR's always send plenty of voltage to the subwoofer for low trim levels--even for -7 or -9 settings. Some Yamaha AVR's do not. Not being sure which Yamaha AVR the OP had, or whether it would turn-on the sub automatically, I was more conservative in my advice. There is no absolute rule to this which is applicable in all cases. The -5 recommendation is just a pretty good general guideline that we can use.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks Mike, all I saw was his -5 setting, did not know he had a positive number to begin with. I doubt I’d ever boost my subwoofer channel more the +6db, so I believe I’m ok with my post Audyssey sub gain at -7db. Appreciate all your GREAT knowledge and advice. I’ll soon be posting my experience with my first close mic position Audyssey run.
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
On the AVR, you are looking at -5 dB or lower. Not greater.
This is when you adjust the trim level on your sub/s, to achieve this level on your AVR.
At -7 dB post Audyssey run on your AVR, adjust your preference from your AVR using the Channel Level Adjust.


Darth
Some of the confusion is the number is GREATER, meaning a higher number, but the volume is LOWER. So of course a LOWER number like -3 versus -7, means volume is HIGHER. Semantics in the end...

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Some of the confusion is the number is GREATER, meaning a higher number, but the volume is LOWER. So of course a LOWER number like -3 versus -7, means volume is HIGHER. Semantics in the end...
Correct, a bigger negative number translate to a lesser overall sound volume.
Just a reverse from +? and where -?, from zero.
Equal a positive, or a negative value, zero been the Absolut.



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I've seen you mention Cascading crossovers throughout my time on this forum but I never understood it until just now reading these last few posts about it Mike.

You make so much sense and I can relate to running a high boost on your sub's. I run mine 12db hot and some scenes seem too "bassy" and now I understand that this is a normal problem and I amplify it more by this bass boost I run.

Luckily I just got The Sandlot BD in the mail today so I'll be able to test this out with James Earl Jones right away.

Thank you Mike for all the work you put in on this forum!
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I have been cascading crossovers for years and voices were one of the driving forces behind it for me. For whatever reason I'm particularly sensitive to 'chesty' voices and if they sound the least bit heavy - when they aren't supposed to - I find it very distracting. I am also a fanatic for precision and detail, I love to hear every little nuance. When a subwoofer is still audibly contributing above the crossover point it seems to detract from the experience. Since I don't personally know anyone else who has the same difficulty I just assumed it was a unique sensitivity. Reading how so many others have benefitted from making the same adjustment has made me realize perhaps I am not in a band of one, that there are others who feel similarly. That's why you see me place so much emphasis on voices in my speaker reviews, it one of the criteria I'm most aware of.
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I've seen you mention Cascading crossovers throughout my time on this forum but I never understood it until just now reading these last few posts about it Mike.

You make so much sense and I can relate to running a high boost on your sub's. I run mine 12db hot and some scenes seem too "bassy" and now I understand that this is a normal problem and I amplify it more by this bass boost I run.

Luckily I just got The Sandlot BD in the mail today so I'll be able to test this out with James Earl Jones right away.

Thank you Mike for all the work you put in on this forum!


First, thank you both for responding, and for your supportive comments. I agree with Jim that it's interesting when someone else hears what we hear and notices what we notice. In the relatively short time that I have been actively talking about cascading crossovers, and other people have been responding, I think that only one or two people who tried using the technique have said that they couldn't hear a difference. As far as I recall, everyone who could hear a difference preferred using cascading crossovers.

There was a post recently on the Audyssey thread which helped to explain what I have been describing in very graphic terms. I think we are all indebted to @Jon AA for the measurements he provided to illustrate what happens, above a crossover, when we boost our subwoofers. I am sharing a link to a question as to how a strong subwoofer boost might change the way we perceive bass with a given crossover.

That wasn't exactly the way the question was phrased, but that's what the OP was really asking. Jon not only interpreted the real nature of the question correctly, he proceeded to explain how subwoofer boosts can affect what we hear, above the crossover, via a series of measured frequency responses. Here is a link to the question and to Jon's answer:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post58131806

At some point, I will add a link to those graphs to the Guide, so that people can see graphic illustrations of why a quicker roll-off above a crossover can be so helpful. But, since the use of significant subwoofer boosts is so common, and since the use of cascading crossovers is a frequent topic of conversation, I thought it would be worth sharing the link here as well. Jon is discussing subwoofer boosts, in the context of using the new Audyssey app, as a way to have a more blended bass response.

To a large extent, we can achieve that same effect with cascading crossovers, because we make the subwoofer boost roll-off more quickly above the crossover. But, there is also even more that we can do, depending on the size of our subwoofer boosts and on our own listening preferences. And, for those who may not be able to fully implement cascading crossovers, for whatever reason, this additional technique may be helpful.

The following technique is not dependent on either Audyssey, or the use of the Audyssey app. In most AVR's, the use of the tone controls affects only the front speakers. I believe, however, that in at least one brand of AVR's (Yamaha?) the tone controls also affect the center channel. Where we are using an independent subwoofer boost (and not using Audyssey's DEQ, which can also obscure bass clarity) we can use the bass tone control to help balance the mid-bass, coming from the front speakers, with the boosted bass coming from the subwoofers.

We would do that by adding anywhere from 1db to 6db of bass boost to the front speakers. (Most tone controls I have seen allow 6db of upward or downward adjustability.) Although the crossover is not a brick wall, in either direction, that tone control boost would be implemented primarily above the selected crossover. It would drop away rapidly below the selected crossover, would remain in full force out to about 200Hz, and would tail-off gradually out to about 800Hz. With an 80Hz crossover, we would hear the boost most strongly from about 80Hz to about 200Hz, or so.

Particularly in systems where the tone controls do not affect the center channel, that allows us to have a smoother bass transition with our front speakers, without affecting the clarity of voices which are played almost exclusively by the center channel. Win-Win! That is because, although some boosted bass is leaking into the frequencies a little bit above 80Hz, the front speakers are playing that >80Hz bass a little bit louder than they would ordinarily, due to the bass tone control boost we have added.

By raising the bass volume by a few decibels, from about 200 or 300Hz down to 80Hz, we meet the subwoofer boosts which are leaking-in a little above 80Hz. And, the overall low-bass, mid-bass, and upper-bass may sound more balanced, as a result. As with everything in audio, we still have to find the right combination of settings for our own personal preferences. And, it helps if we are starting with fairly capable front speakers, which can easily support an 80Hz or 90Hz crossover. So, this technique may work better for some people than for others.

But, I offer the use of the bass tone control as a way to achieve more blended sounding bass, without sacrificing clarity, where we are enjoying the use of a significant subwoofer boost for the special effects in movies, or where we just want to add a little more bass to our front speakers. I like to use a bass tone control boost, in conjunction with a large subwoofer boost, in conjunction with cascading crossovers, for 5.1 movies. I especially enjoy that combination for action movies and blockbusters. YMMV!

Regards,
Mike
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Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #1314 of 1605 Old 06-06-2019, 11:44 AM
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There was a post recently on the Audyssey thread which helped to explain what I have been describing in very graphic terms. I think we are all indebted to @Jon AA for the measurements he provided to illustrate what happens, above a crossover, when we boost our subwoofers. I am sharing a link to a question as to how a strong subwoofer boost might change the way we perceive bass with a given crossover.
Good call out; that post not only explained it, there were graphs to demonstrate as well.
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post #1315 of 1605 Old 06-06-2019, 05:52 PM
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I have been cascading crossovers for years and voices were one of the driving forces behind it for me. For whatever reason I'm particularly sensitive to 'chesty' voices and if they sound the least bit heavy - when they aren't supposed to - I find it very distracting. I am also a fanatic for precision and detail, I love to hear every little nuance. When a subwoofer is still audibly contributing above the crossover point it seems to detract from the experience. Since I don't personally know anyone else who has the same difficulty I just assumed it was a unique sensitivity. Reading how so many others have benefitted from making the same adjustment has made me realize perhaps I am not in a band of one, that there are others who feel similarly. That's why you see me place so much emphasis on voices in my speaker reviews, it one of the criteria I'm most aware of.
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I've seen you mention Cascading crossovers throughout my time on this forum but I never understood it until just now reading these last few posts about it Mike.

You make so much sense and I can relate to running a high boost on your sub's. I run mine 12db hot and some scenes seem too "bassy" and now I understand that this is a normal problem and I amplify it more by this bass boost I run.

Luckily I just got The Sandlot BD in the mail today so I'll be able to test this out with James Earl Jones right away.

Thank you Mike for all the work you put in on this forum!


First, thank you both for responding, and for your supportive comments. I agree with Jim that it's interesting when someone else hears what we hear and notices what we notice. In the relatively short time that I have been actively talking about cascading crossovers, and other people have been responding, I think that only one or two people who tried using the technique have said that they couldn't hear a difference. As far as I recall, everyone who could hear a difference preferred using cascading crossovers.

There was a post recently on the Audyssey thread which helped to explain what I have been describing in very graphic terms. I think we are all indebted to @Jon AA for the measurements he provided to illustrate what happens, above a crossover, when we boost our subwoofers. I am sharing a link to a question as to how a strong subwoofer boost might change the way we perceive bass with a given crossover.

That wasn't exactly the way the question was phrased, but that's what the OP was really asking. Jon not only interpreted the real nature of the question correctly, he proceeded to explain how subwoofer boosts can affect what we hear, above the crossover, via a series of measured frequency responses. Here is a link to the question and to Jon's answer:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post58131806

At some point, I will add a link to those graphs to the Guide, so that people can see graphic illustrations of why a quicker roll-off above a crossover can be so helpful. But, since the use of significant subwoofer boosts is so common, and since the use of cascading crossovers is a frequent topic of conversation, I thought it would be worth sharing the link here as well. Jon is discussing subwoofer boosts, in the context of using the new Audyssey app, as a way to have a more blended bass response.

To a large extent, we can achieve that same effect with cascading crossovers, because we make the subwoofer boost roll-off more quickly above the crossover. But, there is also even more that we can do, depending on the size of our subwoofer boosts and on our own listening preferences. And, for those who may not be able to fully implement cascading crossovers, for whatever reason, this additional technique may be helpful.

The following technique is not dependent on either Audyssey, or the use of the Audyssey app. In most AVR's, the use of the tone controls affects only the front speakers. I believe, however, that in at least one brand of AVR's (Yamaha?) the tone controls also affect the center channel. Where we are using an independent subwoofer boost (and not using Audyssey's DEQ, which can also obscure bass clarity) we can use the bass tone control to help balance the mid-bass, coming from the front speakers, with the boosted bass coming from the subwoofers.

We would do that by adding anywhere from 1db to 6db of bass boost to the front speakers. (Most tone controls I have seen allow 6db of upward or downward adjustability.) Although the crossover is not a brick wall, in either direction, that tone control boost would be implemented primarily above the selected crossover. It would drop away rapidly below the selected crossover, would remain in full force out to about 200Hz, and would tail-off gradually out to about 800Hz. With an 80Hz crossover, we would hear the boost most strongly from about 80Hz to about 200Hz, or so.

Particularly in systems where the tone controls do not affect the center channel, that allows us to have a smoother bass transition with our front speakers, without affecting the clarity of voices which are played almost exclusively by the center channel. Win-Win! That is because, although some boosted bass is leaking into the frequencies a little bit above 80Hz, the front speakers are playing that >80Hz bass a little bit louder than they would ordinarily, due to the bass tone control boost we have added.

By raising the bass volume by a few decibels, from about 200 or 300Hz down to 80Hz, we meet the subwoofer boosts which are leaking-in a little above 80Hz. And, the overall low-bass, mid-bass, and upper-bass may sound more balanced, as a result. As with everything in audio, we still have to find the right combination of settings for our own personal preferences. And, it helps if we are starting with fairly capable front speakers, which can easily support an 80Hz or 90Hz crossover. So, this technique may work better for some people than for others.

But, I offer the use of the bass tone control as a way to achieve more blended sounding bass, without sacrificing clarity, where we are enjoying the use of a significant subwoofer boost for the special effects in movies, or where we just want to add a little more bass to our front speakers. I like to use a bass tone control boost, in conjunction with a large subwoofer boost, in conjunction with cascading crossovers, for 5.1 movies. I especially enjoy that combination for action movies and blockbusters. YMMV! [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

Regards,
Mike
Very nice Mike, thanks again for your work. Thanks for the link to Jon AA's post (If you see this, thank you as well Jon). Glad you guys are still detailing the cascading crossovers. I love the way it sounds. I can actually hear, good clean mid-bass now. It just sounds crisper and cleaner over all. It is also nice to learn about why it sounds better, and how things work together.
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post #1316 of 1605 Old 06-06-2019, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Jon not only interpreted the real nature of the question correctly, he proceeded to explain how subwoofer boosts can affect what we hear, above the crossover, via a series of measured frequency responses. Here is a link to the question and to Jon's answer:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post58131806

At some point, I will add a link to those graphs to the Guide,

Regards,
Mike
Very good idea Mike
Graphs and pictures, can sometime speak a thousand words.
At your leisure of course, but knowing this Guide is your Baby.
I am sure it won't be that long of a wait


Darth

P.S. I did remove most of your post, for not repeating the whole post. And for those jumping to last post, it can be seen on post 1313. For the rest of the story
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Cascading Crossovers

@mthomas47 What's some good material (movies or music) to test cascading crossover settings? I know you mentioned the battle scenes in Battle: Los Angeles; any other recommendations? I boost my subs 4-5 dB and have a house curve (and BEQ) and don't have any issue with dialog during any movie that I can think of, but would like to try cascading crossovers to see if I'm missing anything. I would like to increase the midbass punch for music - I listen to a lot of metal which has little low bass, but plenty of mid bass.
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post #1318 of 1605 Old 06-09-2019, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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@mthomas47 What's some good material (movies or music) to test cascading crossover settings? I know you mentioned the battle scenes in Battle: Los Angeles; any other recommendations? I boost my subs 4-5 dB and have a house curve (and BEQ) and don't have any issue with dialog during any movie that I can think of, but would like to try cascading crossovers to see if I'm missing anything. I would like to increase the midbass punch for music - I listen to a lot of metal which has little low bass, but plenty of mid bass.

Hi,

I think that some of the audio differences being discussed can be subtle to some people and more noticeable to others. For instance, I would probably make a distinction between dialogue intelligibility and dialogue clarity. Like Jim, who commented earlier, I find that male voices which sound chesty are distracting. It's not just that the dialogue is harder to distinguish, the voices sound unnatural to me if they convey too much chest resonance. But, not everyone is going to notice that specific characteristic.

I just used the example of male voices as a good way to illustrate improved mid-bass clarity, and I suggested that where mid-bass clarity is degraded with too much bass, it can potentially interfere with dialogue intelligibility. But, it is mainly the improved clarity that I am after, and the improved dialogue intelligibility is just one aspect of that improved clarity.

If your dialogue intelligibility is already good, and voices sound normal to you with the relatively modest 4-5db subwoofer boost, then I don't know that you will notice a great deal of difference, in your movie watching, with cascading crossovers. You might, but I definitely think that as mid-bass subwoofer boosts go up (not just BEQ, which is mainly low-bass) that the differences in clarity would become more pronounced.

If you are looking for more mid-bass punch in music, then I think that some of the electronic music you mentioned might be good test material. One of the nice things about testing cascading crossovers is how little time it takes to change the settings. You don't have to rerun any automated calibration, or modify any of your other settings, you just change the LPF of LFE in your AVR, and the LPF's on your subwoofers, and you are good to go. It shouldn't take you 15 minutes, counting the time it takes to get to the backs of your subs, if that is where your controls are located. And, after listening for a while, if you don't hear a difference, it is easy to change things back if you want to.

Remember also that you can experiment with the bass tone control for your front speakers. Most people seem to experience chest punch between about 50Hz and 100Hz, but some people may experience it at higher frequencies than the average. I would try cascading crossovers by themselves at first, and then consider trying the use of the bass tone control as an enhancement. You might also find that using cascading crossovers, either with or without the tone controls, allows you to enjoy more subwoofer boost than you are currently using, and that could increase your chest punch too.

I would probably experiment with a variety of bass-heavy movies and music, but based on what you have said, I would start with some heavy metal, which especially emphasizes the mid-bass. Let us know what you discover.

Regards,
Mike
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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I think that some of the audio differences being discussed can be subtle to some people and more noticeable to others. For instance, I would probably make a distinction between dialogue intelligibility and dialogue clarity. Like Jim, who commented earlier, I find that male voices which sound chesty are distracting. It's not just that the dialogue is harder to distinguish, the voices sound unnatural to me if they convey too much chest resonance. But, not everyone is going to notice that specific characteristic.

I just used the example of male voices as a good way to illustrate improved mid-bass clarity, and I suggested that where mid-bass clarity is degraded with too much bass, it can potentially interfere with dialogue intelligibility. But, it is mainly the improved clarity that I am after, and the improved dialogue intelligibility is just one aspect of that improved clarity.

If your dialogue intelligibility is already good, and voices sound normal to you with the relatively modest 4-5db subwoofer boost, then I don't know that you will notice a great deal of difference, in your movie watching, with cascading crossovers. You might, but I definitely think that as mid-bass subwoofer boosts go up (not just BEQ, which is mainly low-bass) that the differences in clarity would become more pronounced.

If you are looking for more mid-bass punch in music, then I think that some of the electronic music you mentioned might be good test material. One of the nice things about testing cascading crossovers is how little time it takes to change the settings. You don't have to rerun any automated calibration, or modify any of your other settings, you just change the LPF of LFE in your AVR, and the LPF's on your subwoofers, and you are good to go. It shouldn't take you 15 minutes, counting the time it takes to get to the backs of your subs, if that is where your controls are located. And, after listening for a while, if you don't hear a difference, it is easy to change things back if you want to.

Remember also that you can experiment with the bass tone control for your front speakers. Most people seem to experience chest punch between about 50Hz and 100Hz, but some people may experience it at higher frequencies than the average. I would try cascading crossovers by themselves at first, and then consider trying the use of the bass tone control as an enhancement. You might also find that using cascading crossovers, either with or without the tone controls, allows you to enjoy more subwoofer boost than you are currently using, and that could increase your chest punch too.

I would probably experiment with a variety of bass-heavy movies and music, but based on what you have said, I would start with some heavy metal, which especially emphasizes the mid-bass. Let us know what you discover.

Regards,
Mike
Hi Mike,
Read all the posts on “cascading crossovers”, and to clarify to myself, it seems the benefits would most likely be more inline with movie viewing, and 5.1 music listening, as both those formats can engage the subwoofers LPF of LFE settings, is this correct?

Would there be any possible audio improvements using cascading crossovers in a simple 2.1 music playback scenario?

I have to remind myself at times, that much of the posts on certain threads are more home theater “movie soundtrack” oriented, and while I “tune” my Denon X3500H AVR using Audyssey for movie playback, it’s mostly done that way since there is a movie soundtrack “standard”. But I mostly listen to various 2 channel music sources. This includes music from my iTunes library, my FLAC music library, CD’s, and streaming music like Amazon at 256kb rates. Unfortunately, all the music sources I listen to are all over the place in volume levels, not to mention how the music was mixed in the first place, usually the bass levels are all over the place as well, and depending on my mood, I’ll chase the bass quickly, just using the bass “channel level” adjustment.

You also made a comment on cascading crossovers working better on “capable mains”. Compared to most here, my mains are smallish Ohm speakers and most likely not so capable, they rely greatly on my Rythmik F12G subwoofer for bass frequencies.

Thanks!

HDTV: Panasonic P55VT50 Plasma
AVR: Denon X3500H
SPEAKERS: Ohm (mains), Chane 2.4 (center), Rythmik F12G (sub), DefTech ProMonitor 80 (sats)
MEDIA PLAYER: Oppo BD83
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post #1320 of 1605 Old 06-09-2019, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Mike,
Read all the posts on “cascading crossovers”, and to clarify to myself, it seems the benefits would most likely be more inline with movie viewing, and 5.1 music listening, as both those formats can engage the subwoofers LPF of LFE settings, is this correct?

Would there be any possible audio improvements using cascading crossovers in a simple 2.1 music playback scenario?

I have to remind myself at times, that much of the posts on certain threads are more home theater “movie soundtrack” oriented, and while I “tune” my Denon X3500H AVR using Audyssey for movie playback, it’s mostly done that way since there is a movie soundtrack “standard”. But I mostly listen to various 2 channel music sources. This includes music from my iTunes library, my FLAC music library, CD’s, and streaming music like Amazon at 256kb rates. Unfortunately, all the music sources I listen to are all over the place in volume levels, not to mention how the music was mixed in the first place, usually the bass levels are all over the place as well, and depending on my mood, I’ll chase the bass quickly, just using the bass “channel level” adjustment.

You also made a comment on cascading crossovers working better on “capable mains”. Compared to most here, my mains are smallish Ohm speakers and most likely not so capable, they rely greatly on my Rythmik F12G subwoofer for bass frequencies.

Thanks!


Hi,

With respect to your first paragraph, I would say that it depends on the individual whether cascading crossovers are more valuable for 5.1 movies and music than they are for two-channel content. You might or might not hear more clarity in two-channel music if your subwoofers rolled-off more quickly above the crossover point.

(Remember that making the subwoofer LPF setting coincide with the AVR crossover setting will affect all of your listening content and not just content with a low-frequency effects channel. The LPF of LFE setting in the AVR is still a third setting.)

** There is something that I want to say to everyone who is reading this thread. Understanding the theory of how and why something works is both interesting and helpful, and I obviously like that part of this hobby. But, only by experimenting will you discover what actually sounds better to you.

If you read about a setting that sounds interesting to you, and you trust the source, then give it a try. At worst, you will waste a few minutes in changing some settings, and you may discover that you achieve an audible improvement in sound quality. If not, just put things back the way they were, with no harm done.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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