Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences - Page 45 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1321 of 1404 Old 06-09-2019, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
(Remember that making the subwoofer LPF setting coincide with the AVR crossover setting will affect all of your listening content and not just content with a low-frequency effects channel. The LPF of LFE setting in the AVR is still a third setting.)
I did not know that the LPF of LFE was even engaged or used with 2.1 playback. Thanks, I have a lot more general learning to do.

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post #1322 of 1404 Old 06-09-2019, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
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I did not know that the LPF of LFE was even engaged or used with 2.1 playback. Thanks, I have a lot more general learning to do.

You are very welcome, but that's not exactly what I was saying. There are three separate settings that you can engage with cascading crossovers. Two of them are in your AVR, and the third setting is in the subwoofers themselves.

The first setting is in the AVR--it is the crossover between the speakers and the subwoofer. The second setting, also in the AVR, is the LPF (low-pass filter) of LFE (low-frequency effects channel). The crossover from speakers to subwoofers affects all of your listening content. The LPF of LFE affects only 5.1 content. That is what you thought to start with, and you were correct. That setting has no effect whatsoever unless you are playing 5.1 content.

The third setting is on the subwoofers themselves. It is sometimes labelled "Crossover" on the sub's plate amp, but is actually just a low-pass filter (LPF) which tells the subwoofer how high you want it to play. Frequencies above your subwoofer's LPF setting, on the plate amp of the sub, will roll-off at about 12db or 24db per octave, above that setting. Rolling-off the subwoofers more quickly can potentially increase clarity and concentrate more SPL below the crossover.

What I was saying is that setting 1 (the crossover you set in the AVR) and setting 3 (the LPF you implement in the subwoofer itself) will combine to increase the roll-off above the selected frequency, thereby potentially increasing the clarity for two-channel music, or for any other content. Whether or not you will actually hear an increase in clarity, if you try that, is something you won't know until you try. But, those two settings will affect all of your content and not just 5.1 content.

You could try setting all three settings to 100Hz, or to 80Hz, and you could mix them if you wanted to. The idea is just to make the subs stop more quickly, especially with heavier subwoofer boosts. I hope this additional clarification helps, because I don't think I can explain all of this any better.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #1323 of 1404 Old 06-09-2019, 03:01 PM
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Thanks again Mike. I’ll give it a try, though accessing my sub dials is a real pain. Obviously, the AVR menu choices are easy. I didn’t realize the sub’s LPF setting effected the normal bass output, as I thought it was just for the LFE low bass sounds in movies, or audio in a 5.1 mix. Previously, like many I set the LPF at 120hz, and matched that in the AVR, as that’s the standard advice. Hopefully my small mains will tell my ears if I get an improvement in clarity, as my mid bass is somehow lacking.

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post #1324 of 1404 Old 06-09-2019, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Mactavish View Post
Thanks again Mike. I’ll give it a try, though accessing my sub dials is a real pain. Obviously, the AVR menu choices are easy. I didn’t realize the sub’s LPF setting effected the normal bass output, as I thought it was just for the LFE low bass sounds in movies, or audio in a 5.1 mix. Previously, like many I set the LPF at 120hz, and matched that in the AVR, as that’s the standard advice. Hopefully my small mains will tell my ears if I get an improvement in clarity, as my mid bass is somehow lacking.
I recently did the cascading crossovers and the improvement was VERY noticable. Mine are all at 80hz. The clarity over all improved, I can actually hear the mid bass now. The sub is more punchy and as Mike said, it hits and stops on a dime now. The dialog is cleaner too. I didn't realize how much the dialog was effected until I did this. It sounds more natural. I am glad I tried this. Very happy with the results.
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post #1325 of 1404 Old 06-09-2019, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post

If you are looking for more mid-bass punch in music, then I think that some of the electronic music you mentioned might be good test material. One of the nice things about testing cascading crossovers is how little time it takes to change the settings. You don't have to rerun any automated calibration, or modify any of your other settings, you just change the LPF of LFE in your AVR, and the LPF's on your subwoofers, and you are good to go. It shouldn't take you 15 minutes, counting the time it takes to get to the backs of your subs, if that is where your controls are located. And, after listening for a while, if you don't hear a difference, it is easy to change things back if you want to.
+1

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Hi,

With respect to your first paragraph, I would say that it depends on the individual whether cascading crossovers are more valuable for 5.1 movies and music than they are for two-channel content. You might or might not hear more clarity in two-channel music if your subwoofers rolled-off more quickly above the crossover point.

(Remember that making the subwoofer LPF setting coincide with the AVR crossover setting will affect all of your listening content and not just content with a low-frequency effects channel. The LPF of LFE setting in the AVR is still a third setting.)

** There is something that I want to say to everyone who is reading this thread. Understanding the theory of how and why something works is both interesting and helpful, and I obviously like that part of this hobby. But, only by experimenting will you discover what actually sounds better to you.

If you read about a setting that sounds interesting to you, and you trust the source, then give it a try. At worst, you will waste a few minutes in changing some settings, and you may discover that you achieve an audible improvement in sound quality. If not, just put things back the way they were, with no harm done.

Regards,
Mike
Big +1

I only post part of your previous post, to emphasise that experimenting for this this. Is the only way to find out if it work for you, in your own environment and one personal preference. Is not only easy to do, but also very fast to do. And reversing the process, also take very little time if you someone do like the results for there environment.


Darth

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post #1326 of 1404 Old 06-10-2019, 07:23 AM
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Thank you very much for posting, that was excellent.
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post #1327 of 1404 Old 06-10-2019, 08:28 AM
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I've been working on calibration this morning and really scratching my head.

I have 3 DIY 18s consisting of 1 SI HT18 v2 and 2 PN470s. The SI is running off one channel of a 6000DSP and the PN470s are wired in parallel for a 4 ohm load and ran off the other channel. Both channels have a limiter set for 90vp, which is a little over 1000 watts.

Using REW and CSL Umik-1, I have all my PEQ setup to produce a might flat response, one I am totally happy with. All sub calibration was performed with Audyssey off. However, when I run Audyssey after calibration, I have to have the input knob on the iNuke at 9 o'clock to prevent the subwoofer from measuring at -12. At that 9 o'clock position, I get -11 db. I then go in and bump that up to around -8 and set all speakers to small with crossovers of 80.

This results in very unimpressive bass response. Hell, using the infamous Edge Of Tomorrow opening credits with a master volume of -10, I barely get the first light to flicker on the iNuke.

Am I doing something wrong here? It sure seems like I'm not, but the results are very lackluster.

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post #1328 of 1404 Old 06-10-2019, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 4fit? View Post
I've been working on calibration this morning and really scratching my head.

I have 3 DIY 18s consisting of 1 SI HT18 v2 and 2 PN470s. The SI is running off one channel of a 6000DSP and the PN470s are wired in parallel for a 4 ohm load and ran off the other channel. Both channels have a limiter set for 90vp, which is a little over 1000 watts.

Using REW and CSL Umik-1, I have all my PEQ setup to produce a might flat response, one I am totally happy with. All sub calibration was performed with Audyssey off. However, when I run Audyssey after calibration, I have to have the input knob on the iNuke at 9 o'clock to prevent the subwoofer from measuring at -12. At that 9 o'clock position, I get -11 db. I then go in and bump that up to around -8 and set all speakers to small with crossovers of 80.

This results in very unimpressive bass response. Hell, using the infamous Edge Of Tomorrow opening credits with a master volume of -10, I barely get the first light to flicker on the iNuke.

Am I doing something wrong here? It sure seems like I'm not, but the results are very lackluster.

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Hi,

If you have read Section II of the Guide, or even the Cliff Notes at the very beginning of the Guide, you know that Audyssey is trying to set all of your channels to play at the same volume. That includes the subwoofers. But, we don't hear lower frequencies as well as we do those in our normal hearing range. At Reference levels (about -5MV up to 0.0MV) the bass frequencies will be mixed in appropriate equilibrium with the frequencies in our normal hearing range of 500 to 5000Hz.

As we drop below about -5MV, however, the lowest frequencies will fall-off much faster than the 500-5000Hz frequencies, and we won't hear some of the impressive special effects you were talking about. DEQ was designed to help with that, but depending on the listening level, most people have to add a +3db to +6db subwoofer boost even with DEQ engaged. A lot of that depends on our own hearing and low-bass tactile sensitivity, and on our own preferences. Personally, I don't use DEQ at all, but I raise my subwoofer levels substantially higher than where Audyssey put them in the initial calibration.

The answer to your issue is simply to raise the volume on your subwoofers by as many decibels as your individual bass preferences require. You might also want to remeasure with REW to see whether you need to tweak any of your PEQ, post-calibration. For instance, you might want to implement a little more of a low-bass house curve, post-Audyssey. It's also possible that Audyssey set your subwoofers even lower than it intended to. As with all measurement microphones, the Audyssey mics have a built-in error factor.

I started to ask you whether you were sure that Audyssey was actually contributing anything, if your bass was where you wanted it before running Audyssey? But, Audyssey can still be helpful from an overall system calibration standpoint, and you may also be benefiting from some EQ for the non-subwoofer frequencies. For example, your speakers are still having to play down to 80Hz, so the EQ may be especially helpful for your mid and upper-bass.

You just need to be prepared to make some post-calibration tweaks, after running Audyssey, and continue raising the volume on your subwoofers, so that they give you the bass response you are looking for. That preferred bass response varies so much from individual-to individual, and also varies so much with both content and listening levels, that I don't believe that any system of automated calibration and room correction can ever be completely successful in setting subwoofer levels. But, you can easily fix this with a combination of an individualized house curve and a subwoofer boost.

If you haven't already read it, Section II of the Guide might be very helpful in understanding what Audyssey is doing and why. Please let me know if this answer helps, and if you have any more issues along this line.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #1329 of 1404 Old 06-10-2019, 11:12 AM
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Hi,

If you have read Section II of the Guide, or even the Cliff Notes at the very beginning of the Guide, you know that Audyssey is trying to set all of your channels to play at the same volume. That includes the subwoofers. But, we don't hear lower frequencies as well as we do those in our normal hearing range. At Reference levels (about -5MV up to 0.0MV) the bass frequencies will be mixed in appropriate equilibrium with the frequencies in our normal hearing range of 500 to 5000Hz.

As we drop below about -5MV, however, the lowest frequencies will fall-off much faster than the 500-5000Hz frequencies, and we won't hear some of the impressive special effects you were talking about. DEQ was designed to help with that, but depending on the listening level, most people have to add a +3db to +6db subwoofer boost even with DEQ engaged. A lot of that depends on our own hearing and low-bass tactile sensitivity, and on our own preferences. Personally, I don't use DEQ at all, but I raise my subwoofer levels substantially higher than where Audyssey put them in the initial calibration.

The answer to your issue is simply to raise the volume on your subwoofers by as many decibels as your individual bass preferences require. You might also want to remeasure with REW to see whether you need to tweak any of your PEQ, post-calibration. For instance, you might want to implement a little more of a low-bass house curve, post-Audyssey. It's also possible that Audyssey set your subwoofers even lower than it intended to. As with all measurement microphones, the Audyssey mics have a built-in error factor.

I started to ask you whether you were sure that Audyssey was actually contributing anything, if your bass was where you wanted it before running Audyssey? But, Audyssey can still be helpful from an overall system calibration standpoint, and you may also be benefiting from some EQ for the non-subwoofer frequencies. For example, your speakers are still having to play down to 80Hz, so the EQ may be especially helpful for your mid and upper-bass.

You just need to be prepared to make some post-calibration tweaks, after running Audyssey, and continue raising the volume on your subwoofers, so that they give you the bass response you are looking for. That preferred bass response varies so much from individual-to individual, and also varies so much with both content and listening levels, that I don't believe that any system of automated calibration and room correction can ever be completely successful in setting subwoofer levels. But, you can easily fix this with a combination of an individualized house curve and a subwoofer boost.

If you haven't already read it, Section II of the Guide might be very helpful in understanding what Audyssey is doing and why. Please let me know if this answer helps, and if you have any more issues along this line.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks for the response.

I had read all of that, but guess I wasn't prepared to crank it up quite as much as I did.

At the moment, I am pretty damn thrilled with where I'm at. I put the sub level at -9 and cranked the input knob on the iNuke to one click past the 11 o'clock position. I'm assuming that I could have gotten the same results by just cranking the sub level to like -2, but this works just fine.

Now if I can only get my 20hz response to come up a bit. I'm down 9db between 30 and 21hz. Eventually I will be adding two UM18s in Marty enclosures and moving the PN470s nearfield, but that will be a bit, so I'm just trying to get the best response available for right now.

I'm already applying 8db boost at 20hz at Q 0.70, so not sure what else I can do about that.

Sorry for the non-screenshot image, but I'm on my phone and it's just easier to post a pic this way. Red line is original post-Audyssey and the purple line is now.

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post #1330 of 1404 Old 06-10-2019, 11:54 AM
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Update....

Played around with a bit more post-Audyssey PEQ and got the 20hz region increased around 5db and flattened out a bit was well. I didn't take a pic/screenshot, but I'm very pleased with the overall performance at this point. Will only get better when the room makes the transition to a dedicated space and I can add a couple Martys to the mix for the ULF spectrum.

Now I just need to track down all the rattles that come from pressurizing the room in this way. My fight-or-flight response has already kicked in a few times. Haha.

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post #1331 of 1404 Old 06-10-2019, 12:02 PM
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What did you do to achieve the improvement?

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post #1332 of 1404 Old 06-10-2019, 02:43 PM
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Now I just need to track down all the rattles that come from pressurizing the room in this way. My fight-or-flight response has already kicked in a few times. Haha.
Have you considered an isolator like the SubDude? That decouples the sub from the floor and helps with rattles.
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post #1333 of 1404 Old 06-10-2019, 03:22 PM
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What did you do to achieve the improvement?

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Added additional PEQ around 24hz. I'll try to post the updated measurement later this evening. I've still got a bit of a dip around 85ish, but I believe that's just because of placement.

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post #1334 of 1404 Old 06-10-2019, 03:28 PM
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Have you considered an isolator like the SubDude? That decouples the sub from the floor and helps with rattles.
Yeah, I've used something like that before, but not with these 3 subs. The room is on the second floor, so basically has a suspended floor. The main thing rattling is the doors in the jams. Definitely going to have to add some weather stripping to them. The room is flexing for sure.

I planned to go with thick stall mats when I move them behind the screen, but it's going to be a bit before that happens.

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post #1335 of 1404 Old 06-10-2019, 05:43 PM
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Update....

Played around with a bit more post-Audyssey PEQ and got the 20hz region increased around 5db and flattened out a bit was well. I didn't take a pic/screenshot, but I'm very pleased with the overall performance at this point. Will only get better when the room makes the transition to a dedicated space and I can add a couple Martys to the mix for the ULF spectrum.

Now I just need to track down all the rattles that come from pressurizing the room in this way. My fight-or-flight response has already kicked in a few times. Haha.

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Glad it work out good for you, after doing a few tweaks
Also wishing you the best of luck, chasing all those rattles. Since some can be very difficult to pin point. Some of mine were feet's away from where, I thought they were coming from.
That said, with lot's of bass. Do come some homework


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post #1336 of 1404 Old 06-10-2019, 07:00 PM
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Just thought I'd toss up what I was able to come up with.

The bottom line is what I started with this morning. This had a few PEQ adjustments and had Audyssey turned off.

The middle line is the previous measurement I posted. This is after switching the phase to 180 for both channels, additional PEQ tweaks, and is post-Audyssey.

The top line is after I was able to up the response in the 20-30hz range and is also post-Audyssey.

When the room makes the transition to a mostly dedicated space in the next few months, I plan to build 2 full Martys to be ran off an unused 6000DSP I have lying around. These will be placed behind the false wall along with the HT18v2. I will then build end table enclosures for the PN470s and move them nearfield flanking the seating.

Just wanted to say thanks for the great thread!!

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post #1337 of 1404 Old 06-17-2019, 08:11 PM
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Tone Control?

Hi guys,

Was thinking about tone controls today. I know we use them for that extra bit of mid bass and I personally use +6db for bass for music and movies but if we are already implementing Cascading Crossovers for that same purpose to improve mid bass do we need to be using both or is it just a personal thing for us to play with or something else to be considered.

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post #1338 of 1404 Old 06-18-2019, 07:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys,

Was thinking about tone controls today. I know we use them for that extra bit of mid bass and I personally use +6db for bass for music and movies but if we are already implementing Cascading Crossovers for than same purpose to improve mid bass do we need to be using both or is it just a personal thing for us to play with or something else to be considered.

Hi Zelko,

I really don't think there is one setting combination that we can point to and say that it's a one-size-fits-all combination. In my opinion, that includes the use of the tone controls. For instance, many people who use Audyssey, in Denon/Marantz AVR's, like using DEQ. And the tone controls can only be used when DEQ is turned off. Owners of other brands of AVR's may or may not prefer to use the tone controls, depending on their individual circumstances and listening perceptions.

I think that we can say the same thing for the use of the bass tone control to add mid-bass, primarily above the crossover to the subs, in conjunction with cascading crossovers. Some people may find it helpful and some may not. I think it is most likely to be helpful where someone is using a fairly significant subwoofer boost, because it could create a more blended perception of bass if the mid-bass in the front speakers were also boosted a bit. But, it's strictly a YMMV question.

The following post on the previous page explains why the tone controls might be helpful with significant subwoofer boosts, even where cascading crossovers are employed to increase the mid-bass clarity and impact below the selected crossover (typically about 80Hz).

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post58148812

Remember that the primary effect of the bass tone control would be above the selected crossover. It is also important to remember that on most AVR's, including Denon/Marantz, the tone controls only affect the front speakers. That is important because we may not want to add any more bass to our center channel, in order to maximize vocal clarity for movies.

That is part of the purpose of implementing cascading crossovers in the first place--to prevent boosted bass from the subwoofers from leaking into voices coming from the center channel. Boosting bass slightly in the front speakers, while leaving the center channel alone, can potentially allow us to have a more pleasing overall blending of bass, without adversely affecting what the cascading crossovers are doing.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #1339 of 1404 Old 06-18-2019, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Zelko,

I really don't think there is one setting combination that we can point to and say that it's a one-size-fits-all combination. In my opinion, that includes the use of the tone controls. For instance, many people who use Audyssey, in Denon/Marantz AVR's, like using DEQ. And the tone controls can only be used when DEQ is turned off. Owners of other brands of AVR's may or may not prefer to use the tone controls, depending on their individual circumstances and listening perceptions.

I think that we can say the same thing for the use of the bass tone control to add mid-bass, primarily above the crossover to the subs, in conjunction with cascading crossovers. Some people may find it helpful and some may not. I think it is most likely to be helpful where someone is using a fairly significant subwoofer boost, because it could create a more blended perception of bass if the mid-bass in the front speakers were also boosted a bit. But, it's strictly a YMMV question.

The following post on the previous page explains why the tone controls might be helpful with significant subwoofer boosts, even where cascading crossovers are employed to increase the mid-bass clarity and impact below the selected crossover (typically about 80Hz).

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post58148812

Remember that the primary effect of the bass tone control would be above the selected crossover. It is also important to remember that on most AVR's, including Denon/Marantz, the tone controls only affect the front speakers. That is important because we may not want to add any more bass to our center channel, in order to maximize vocal clarity for movies.

That is part of the purpose of implementing cascading crossovers in the first place--to prevent boosted bass from the subwoofers from leaking into voices coming from the center channel. Boosting bass slightly in the front speakers, while leaving the center channel alone, can potentially allow us to have a more pleasing overall blending of bass, without adversely affecting what the cascading crossovers are doing.

Regards,
Mike
Mike,

As always advise much appreciated.
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
I have been cascading crossovers for years and voices were one of the driving forces behind it for me. For whatever reason I'm particularly sensitive to 'chesty' voices and if they sound the least bit heavy - when they aren't supposed to - I find it very distracting. I am also a fanatic for precision and detail, I love to hear every little nuance. When a subwoofer is still audibly contributing above the crossover point it seems to detract from the experience. Since I don't personally know anyone else who has the same difficulty I just assumed it was a unique sensitivity. Reading how so many others have benefitted from making the same adjustment has made me realize perhaps I am not in a band of one, that there are others who feel similarly. That's why you see me place so much emphasis on voices in my speaker reviews, it one of the criteria I'm most aware of.
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Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
I've seen you mention Cascading crossovers throughout my time on this forum but I never understood it until just now reading these last few posts about it Mike.

You make so much sense and I can relate to running a high boost on your sub's. I run mine 12db hot and some scenes seem too "bassy" and now I understand that this is a normal problem and I amplify it more by this bass boost I run.

Luckily I just got The Sandlot BD in the mail today so I'll be able to test this out with James Earl Jones right away.

Thank you Mike for all the work you put in on this forum!


First, thank you both for responding, and for your supportive comments. I agree with Jim that it's interesting when someone else hears what we hear and notices what we notice. In the relatively short time that I have been actively talking about cascading crossovers, and other people have been responding, I think that only one or two people who tried using the technique have said that they couldn't hear a difference. As far as I recall, everyone who could hear a difference preferred using cascading crossovers.

There was a post recently on the Audyssey thread which helped to explain what I have been describing in very graphic terms. I think we are all indebted to @Jon AA for the measurements he provided to illustrate what happens, above a crossover, when we boost our subwoofers. I am sharing a link to a question as to how a strong subwoofer boost might change the way we perceive bass with a given crossover.

That wasn't exactly the way the question was phrased, but that's what the OP was really asking. Jon not only interpreted the real nature of the question correctly, he proceeded to explain how subwoofer boosts can affect what we hear, above the crossover, via a series of measured frequency responses. Here is a link to the question and to Jon's answer:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post58131806

At some point, I will add a link to those graphs to the Guide, so that people can see graphic illustrations of why a quicker roll-off above a crossover can be so helpful. But, since the use of significant subwoofer boosts is so common, and since the use of cascading crossovers is a frequent topic of conversation, I thought it would be worth sharing the link here as well. Jon is discussing subwoofer boosts, in the context of using the new Audyssey app, as a way to have a more blended bass response.

To a large extent, we can achieve that same effect with cascading crossovers, because we make the subwoofer boost roll-off more quickly above the crossover. But, there is also even more that we can do, depending on the size of our subwoofer boosts and on our own listening preferences. And, for those who may not be able to fully implement cascading crossovers, for whatever reason, this additional technique may be helpful.

The following technique is not dependent on either Audyssey, or the use of the Audyssey app. In most AVR's, the use of the tone controls affects only the front speakers. I believe, however, that in at least one brand of AVR's (Yamaha?) the tone controls also affect the center channel. Where we are using an independent subwoofer boost (and not using Audyssey's DEQ, which can also obscure bass clarity) we can use the bass tone control to help balance the mid-bass, coming from the front speakers, with the boosted bass coming from the subwoofers.

We would do that by adding anywhere from 1db to 6db of bass boost to the front speakers. (Most tone controls I have seen allow 6db of upward or downward adjustability.) Although the crossover is not a brick wall, in either direction, that tone control boost would be implemented primarily above the selected crossover. It would drop away rapidly below the selected crossover, would remain in full force out to about 200Hz, and would tail-off gradually out to about 800Hz. With an 80Hz crossover, we would hear the boost most strongly from about 80Hz to about 200Hz, or so.

Particularly in systems where the tone controls do not affect the center channel, that allows us to have a smoother bass transition with our front speakers, without affecting the clarity of voices which are played almost exclusively by the center channel. Win-Win! That is because, although some boosted bass is leaking into the frequencies a little bit above 80Hz, the front speakers are playing that >80Hz bass a little bit louder than they would ordinarily, due to the bass tone control boost we have added.

By raising the bass volume by a few decibels, from about 200 or 300Hz down to 80Hz, we meet the subwoofer boosts which are leaking-in a little above 80Hz. And, the overall low-bass, mid-bass, and upper-bass may sound more balanced, as a result. As with everything in audio, we still have to find the right combination of settings for our own personal preferences. And, it helps if we are starting with fairly capable front speakers, which can easily support an 80Hz or 90Hz crossover. So, this technique may work better for some people than for others.

But, I offer the use of the bass tone control as a way to achieve more blended sounding bass, without sacrificing clarity, where we are enjoying the use of a significant subwoofer boost for the special effects in movies, or where we just want to add a little more bass to our front speakers. I like to use a bass tone control boost, in conjunction with a large subwoofer boost, in conjunction with cascading crossovers, for 5.1 movies. I especially enjoy that combination for action movies and blockbusters. YMMV! [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

Regards,
Mike
Mike,

How much bass is Audyssey adding to the front speakers above 80hz when not at reference level.

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Mike,

How much bass is Audyssey adding to the front speakers above 80hz when not at reference level.

Hi Zelko,

Your question does not make sense to me as it is phrased. But, I think that you may be asking how much bass DEQ (which is a software program that is an adjunct to Audyssey) adds below Reference. If that is your question, the answer is it depends on your listening level. DEQ doesn't do anything at all at a listening level of 0.0. DEQ was designed to maintain acoustic equilibrium at below (or above) Reference listening levels. So, at -5MV, for instance, DEQ would add about 1db to all of the channels in your system, including your front speakers, above 80Hz. Section V of the Guide has a detailed description of how DEQ works at different frequencies.

Interestingly, if you go above Reference, DEQ works in reverse, subtracting bass (and a little bit of treble) in the same proportions that it adds them at below Reference levels. So, for instance, at +5 MV, DEQ would subtract ~1db of bass and ~1db of treble above 80Hz.

If your question involves the use of the tone controls, those don't have anything at all to do with Audyssey, and in fact they are inoperable when DEQ is engaged. (DEQ is engaged by default whenever an Audyssey calibration is performed.) The use of the tone controls has nothing to do with either Audyssey or with your listening level. The bass tone control is a feature of your AVR. It will add (or subtract) anywhere from 1db to 6db, in 1db increments, on Denon/Marantz AVR's, irrespective of listening level. It is simply a user-discretion feature, like the surround mode you pick.

I hope that one of those interpretations of your question is correct.

Regards,
Mike
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Zelko,

Your question does not make sense to me as it is phrased. But, I think that you may be asking how much bass DEQ (which is a software program that is an adjunct to Audyssey) adds below Reference. If that is your question, the answer is it depends on your listening level. DEQ doesn't do anything at all at a listening level of 0.0. DEQ was designed to maintain acoustic equilibrium at below (or above) Reference listening levels. So, at -5MV, for instance, DEQ would add 2.2db to all of the channels in your system including your front speakers and your subwoofers.

Interestingly, if you go above Reference, DEQ works in reverse, subtracting bass (and a little bit of treble) in the same proportions that it adds them at below Reference levels. So, for instance, at +5 MV, DEQ would subtract 2.2db of bass and ~1db of treble.

If your question involves the use of the tone controls, those don't have anything at all to do with Audyssey, and in fact they are inoperable when DEQ is engaged. (DEQ is engaged by default whenever an Audyssey calibration is performed.) The use of the tone controls has nothing to do with either Audyssey or with your listening level. The bass tone control is a feature of your AVR. It will add (or subtract) anywhere from 1db to 6db, in 1db increments, on Denon/Marantz AVR's, irrespective of listening level. It is simply a user-discretion feature, like the surround mode you pick.

I hope that one of those interpretations of your question is correct.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks Mike,

What I meant was what did DEQ add to the fronts at say around -10 and specifically above 80hz. I understand the 2.2db added every 5MV above reference but not sure if that's for the entire frequency range of the fronts all is it just under 80 hz.
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Originally Posted by bigzee3 View Post
Thanks Mike,

What I meant was what did DEQ add to the fronts at say around -10 and specifically above 80hz. I understand the 2.2db added every 5MV above reference but not sure if that's for the entire frequency range of the fronts all is it just under 80 hz.

I edited my response to you, to add more detail, before you posted the above. You need to read Section V of the Guide in order to have a better understanding of how DEQ works at frequencies both above and below your crossover. At -10MV, DEQ would add a little more than 2db of bass boost, above 80Hz, to the front speakers. If you had other speakers in your system, it would add the same amount to them as well.
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
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Originally Posted by bigzee3 View Post
Thanks Mike,

What I meant was what did DEQ add to the fronts at say around -10 and specifically above 80hz. I understand the 2.2db added every 5MV above reference but not sure if that's for the entire frequency range of the fronts all is it just under 80 hz.[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

I edited my response to you, to add more detail, before you posted the above. You need to read Section V of the Guide in order to have a better understanding of how DEQ works at frequencies both above and below your crossover. At -10MV, DEQ would add a little more than 2db of bass boost, above 80Hz, to the front speakers. If you had other speakers in your system, it would add the same amount to them as well.
Thanks Mike,

I did read it but must have missed something. Will have a look at it again. I appreciation your understanding.
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i tried 80 all across. lfe, speaker crossovers and on back of jbl 550p sub
i have the older emptek impression series towers and big center.
these are known to be laid back both the bass and tweeters.

this definitely added some punch to the sound.
just to make sure, i wont be missing out on any low end from the jbl?
it only goes down to 27hz
using a denon 1712 with audyssey multeq xt
dynamic eq on, dynamic volume off.

dialogue from the center is improved.
im going to listen for a couple days just to make sure its not placebo effect before i decide to leave settings like this
ive only listened for approx 10 minutes so far
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Originally Posted by mariogonzalezzz View Post
i tried 80 all across. lfe, speaker crossovers and on back of jbl 550p sub
i have the older emptek impression series towers and big center.
these are known to be laid back both the bass and tweeters.

this definitely added some punch to the sound.
just to make sure, i wont be missing out on any low end from the jbl?
it only goes down to 27hz
using a denon 1712 with audyssey multeq xt
dynamic eq on, dynamic volume off.

dialogue from the center is improved.
im going to listen for a couple days just to make sure its not placebo effect before i decide to leave settings like this
ive only listened for approx 10 minutes so far
Thanks for your thoughts and your impressions

I also found that "Cascading Crossover", did offer an improvement to my midbass and overall sound in general.
With your sub, I would also experiment with the DEQ set to Off.
In my case, it also improve the bass quality drastically for not having the lower end increase a lot. And got two very capable subs.


Darth
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Zelko,

Your question does not make sense to me as it is phrased. But, I think that you may be asking how much bass DEQ (which is a software program that is an adjunct to Audyssey) adds below Reference. If that is your question, the answer is it depends on your listening level. DEQ doesn't do anything at all at a listening level of 0.0. DEQ was designed to maintain acoustic equilibrium at below (or above) Reference listening levels. So, at -5MV, for instance, DEQ would add about 1db to all of the channels in your system, including your front speakers, above 80Hz. Section V of the Guide has a detailed description of how DEQ works at different frequencies.

Interestingly, if you go above Reference, DEQ works in reverse, subtracting bass (and a little bit of treble) in the same proportions that it adds them at below Reference levels. So, for instance, at +5 MV, DEQ would subtract ~1db of bass and ~1db of treble above 80Hz.

If your question involves the use of the tone controls, those don't have anything at all to do with Audyssey, and in fact they are inoperable when DEQ is engaged. (DEQ is engaged by default whenever an Audyssey calibration is performed.) The use of the tone controls has nothing to do with either Audyssey or with your listening level. The bass tone control is a feature of your AVR. It will add (or subtract) anywhere from 1db to 6db, in 1db increments, on Denon/Marantz AVR's, irrespective of listening level. It is simply a user-discretion feature, like the surround mode you pick.

I hope that one of those interpretations of your question is correct.

Regards,
Mike

LOL
While nice to know, if someone listen above reference level. They have either some hearing problem, or will get some hearing loss within a few years


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Originally Posted by mariogonzalezzz View Post
i tried 80 all across. lfe, speaker crossovers and on back of jbl 550p sub
i have the older emptek impression series towers and big center.
these are known to be laid back both the bass and tweeters.

this definitely added some punch to the sound.
just to make sure, i wont be missing out on any low end from the jbl?
it only goes down to 27hz
using a denon 1712 with audyssey multeq xt
dynamic eq on, dynamic volume off.

dialogue from the center is improved.
im going to listen for a couple days just to make sure its not placebo effect before i decide to leave settings like this
ive only listened for approx 10 minutes so far
That's good it works for you,if you turn off DEQ and just turn up the level on your subwoofer-not on your receiver-it should sound even more articulate. Lots to learn by reading this thread. @mthomas47 did a hell of a job on it!
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That's good it works for you,if you turn off DEQ and just turn up the level on your subwoofer-not on your receiver-it should sound even more articulate. Lots to learn by reading this thread. @mthomas47 did a hell of a job on it!
thats too much to read honestly for a novice.

ill try turning deq off. but turn up the level (do you mean volume knob on back of the subwoofer?)
wont that affect audyssey calibration? i dont want to run it again. have my speakers toed in, subwoofer crawl etc. everything where i like it.

maybe i should just leave things alone.
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thats too much to read honestly for a novice.

ill try turning deq off. but turn up the level (do you mean volume knob on back of the subwoofer?)
wont that affect audyssey calibration? i dont want to run it again. have my speakers toed in, subwoofer crawl etc. everything where i like it.

maybe i should just leave things alone.

You can absolutely leave things alone if you want to, but you won't hurt anything by experimenting. You can always go back to the way things were whenever you want to.

You asked earlier if utilizing cascading crossovers would turn-off Audyssey and I responded that it wouldn't. Turning-up the volume on your subwoofer won't affect the Audyssey calibration either. You really do need to at least read the Cliff Notes at the beginning of the Guide. They won't take you fifteen minutes, and everyone needs to understand a little bit about how his HT system, with Audyssey, works.

Your gear offers you a lot of user-adjustability. We're all a little anxious at first about messing with our settings. Once we realize that we are just trying to improve our own listening enjoyment, it all gets easier. Just as it does when we experiment with different volume levels or a different surround mode. But, there's no pressure on you to try anything you don't want to. Just try things in your own time, whenever you feel like it.

Regards,
Mike
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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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