Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences - Page 47 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1381 of 1605 Old 07-09-2019, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I really shouldn't have used the multi-quote option since nearly all of my post was actually directed to the person who asked the original question, and the follow-up question on a different thread. I understand if you don't want to use the subwoofer gain to make adjustments to your subwoofer, and I understand your reasons.

But, different people have different bass requirements. If someone is listening at a master volume level of about -10 or-15, keeping the AVR sub trim at about -5 or lower is a pretty good idea in order to prevent clipping and in order to maximize subwoofer output. Some people like to use a great deal more subwoofer boost than the +6db that you mentioned. Of course, if you are also employing DEQ, your actual subwoofer boost is much greater than 6db. There is a YMMV aspect to nearly everything in audio and this is no exception.

In any event, I apologize if my post gave you the impression that I was advising you personally to use your gain control to make subwoofer boosts. That part of my post was directed to the OP, and to whomever else might be reading along silently. Using the subwoofer gain control is really only important if someone wants to make fairly substantial subwoofer boosts, while trying to stay below about -5 in AVR trim. And, the -5 number is mainly important at slightly higher master volume levels. Section II of the Guide explains all of that in much more detail for anyone reading along who may be interested.

Regards,
Mike
Would be great if all subs came with remotes. With my PB I upped the trim from -9.5 to -7.5 and forgot about it and simply use the 3 SVS app presets to add the extra for different sources. Also its great for cascading option as I use 2 presets for with Low pass on for cascading and 1 off for non crucial TV view. But I do understand the struggle when you cant get to the back to sort things or when my wife dusts the sub and gain knob is moved.
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post #1382 of 1605 Old 07-09-2019, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bigzee3 View Post
Would be great if all subs came with remotes. With my PB I upped the trim from -9.5 to -7.5 and forgot about it and simply use the 3 SVS app presets to add the extra for different sources. Also its great for cascading option as I use 2 presets for with Low pass on for cascading and 1 off for non crucial TV view. But I do understand the struggle when you cant get to the back to sort things or when my wife dusts the sub and gain knob is moved.
And this can be a bummer
While I dust my subs and polish my own speakers (piano gloss finish), I do have some Cats. And there little paws, can get very curious

The way I remedy this one, was using some soft silicone. Applied 3/4 around the knobs once done (not inside, just enough to cover part of the knob over the plate amp), For easy removal, if needed to be change again.
Problem solve

As I am posting this, here is a picture of our new family member sitting close to me. Extremely passive, my wife was not ready for another one. But while she was doing our monthly donation for food, at the shelter. He came to her, and start kissing my wife. And got him the next day, since this shelter check your past history;


To be a new playmate for our little female, since we had to put our big boy to sleep. For been very sick, and suffering.


Will be remember in my own Theater link, and post some words ever year.




Darth

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post #1383 of 1605 Old 07-09-2019, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
And this can be a bummer
While I dust my subs and polish my own speakers (piano gloss finish), I do have some Cats. And there little paws, can get very curious

The way I remedy this one, was using some soft silicone. Applied 3/4 around the knobs, once done. For easy removal, if needed to be change again.
Problem solve


Darth
I still remember the make up mirror and mini torch trying to look at the knob position. Will pass on your tip to a few boys that have the rear gain adjustment.
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post #1384 of 1605 Old 07-09-2019, 06:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mactavish View Post
No need to apologize, a lot of what I’ve learned is from YOU! Just thought I’d save you from another response, seems I was wrong.
I just wanted to list some things for the OP to consider. I’m not in the position with my little 12” subwoofer to even consider any “substantial” sub boosts, but hopefully someday. Keep up the good work, I’ll let you answer these types of posts from now on, you have much more knowledge and respond in great helpful detail. I just wanted to add a few points I learned from you.
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First, it take a real man to admit when wrong. I would still post from your personal knowledge, this way we can all learn a thing or two.
I post here often, and when I am wrong. Mike @mthomas47 will correct me, and got no problem with-it. A good way to learn from the Master, from your mistake.
They say in Life, the only way to really learn is from your own previous mistakes

Just like Mike realizing, he should not have multiple quote.
Hope to see you post again!


Darth

Just to prove I haven't really learned anything, I'm going to use the multi-quote feature again.

Sometimes, it isn't even a matter of whether someone's post is wrong or not. I often find myself needing to add some detail to someone else's explanation, because I know that there will be other people silently reading along, who may misunderstand something if I don't. I think I have mentioned this before, but the ratio of guests to members on the Subwoofer Forum can range from about 3/1 to about 7/1, depending on the day and time of day. And, guests aren't allowed to post even if they want to.

So, for every member who reads posts on this thread and who asks a follow-up question, there may be a half-dozen guests today, and hundreds over a period of a few weeks, who would like to ask a follow-up question for clarification, and can't. For some reason, I have always felt a responsibility to address readers beyond the person who asked the original question, which is partly how the Guide was born. It's also one reason my posts tend to be fairly detailed.

But, I don't want anyone to think that I am ever discouraging anyone else from posting on the thread, or from answering any question he wants to answer. If I expand on an answer, it's almost never with the intent of contradicting or correcting someone. It's usually just a matter of clarifying and expanding on the issue for other readers.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #1385 of 1605 Old 07-09-2019, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by bigzee3 View Post
I still remember the make up mirror and mini torch trying to look at the knob position. Will pass on your tip to a few boys that have the rear gain adjustment.
Added this small detail to my previous;
"(not inside, just enough to cover part of the knob over the plate amp)"


Darth
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post #1386 of 1605 Old 07-10-2019, 11:21 AM
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I’m expecting my replacement driver for my Rythmik F12G subwoofer, and since it will be brand new, I searched for information regarding “proper break in”. Like many audio topics there seems to be a wide variety of opinions. I pasted a link below of just one such advice page from a well respected subwoofer vendor. On the opposite end is simple advice, like “just use it as you normally would”.

Thought I’d seek the advice of experts here. Thanks.

https://rel.net/how-to-break-in-a-subwoofer/

HDTV: Panasonic P55VT50 Plasma
AVR: Denon X3500H
SPEAKERS: Ohm (mains), Chane 2.4 (center), Rythmik F12G (sub), DefTech ProMonitor 80 (sats)
MEDIA PLAYER: Oppo BD83
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post #1387 of 1605 Old 07-10-2019, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
And this can be a bummer
While I dust my subs and polish my own speakers (piano gloss finish), I do have some Cats. And there little paws, can get very curious

The way I remedy this one, was using some soft silicone. Applied 3/4 around the knobs once done (not inside, just enough to cover part of the knob over the plate amp), For easy removal, if needed to be change again.
Problem solve

As I am posting this, here is a picture of our new family member sitting close to me. Extremely passive, my wife was not ready for another one. But while she was doing our monthly donation for food, at the shelter. He came to her, and start kissing my wife. And got him the next day, since this shelter check your past history;


To be a new playmate for our little female, since we had to put our big boy to sleep. For been very sick, and suffering.


Will be remember in my own Theater link, and post some words ever year.




Darth
How do you polish your piano black speakers? I have been looking for a method that works.
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post #1388 of 1605 Old 07-10-2019, 02:54 PM
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How do you polish your piano black speakers? I have been looking for a method that works.
Obviously, he uses un-clawed “CAT PAWS”, nothing softer ....

HDTV: Panasonic P55VT50 Plasma
AVR: Denon X3500H
SPEAKERS: Ohm (mains), Chane 2.4 (center), Rythmik F12G (sub), DefTech ProMonitor 80 (sats)
MEDIA PLAYER: Oppo BD83
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post #1389 of 1605 Old 07-10-2019, 05:15 PM
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How do you polish your piano black speakers? I have been looking for a method that works.

Pledge Lemon with an old t-shirt
Just like some furniture, you have to be sometime patient to remove finger prints. If only dust, only take a minute or two.


Darth
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post #1390 of 1605 Old 07-10-2019, 05:20 PM
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Obviously, he uses un-clawed “CAT PAWS”, nothing softer ....

LOL
My cats never bother the speakers, and have no grills on.
The worst they do, other than the paws getting curious (only happen once). They like to sleep on the subs, that also have no grill on

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post #1391 of 1605 Old 07-10-2019, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Mactavish View Post
I’m expecting my replacement driver for my Rythmik F12G subwoofer, and since it will be brand new, I searched for information regarding “proper break in”. Like many audio topics there seems to be a wide variety of opinions. I pasted a link below of just one such advice page from a well respected subwoofer vendor. On the opposite end is simple advice, like “just use it as you normally would”.

Thought I’d seek the advice of experts here. Thanks.

https://rel.net/how-to-break-in-a-subwoofer/
Depending of the brand. Some will do some break in, before shipping the end product to the customer. I believe your new woofer, has a rubber surround. While it might need some break in, to relax the suspension. It will change nothing or very little to your sound. More a market ploy, to make you use to this new sound for not returning-it. Since relaxing a suspension take only a few hours, at mid high volume. Normal listening volume, will take of that quickly. Did-it myself before, and over time and experience. Found out, it was just me getting use to a new sound signature


Darth

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post #1392 of 1605 Old 07-11-2019, 08:00 PM
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Level matching subs at db level of calibration

I believe I noticed a significant improvement in my calibration after level matching the subs at the exact volume at which the calibration was to be performed. The technical support, Anthem and SVS, both responded to a different question than what I asked. However, an electrical engineer told me that my suspicion is correct and when you change the volume, the phase also changes. I don't completely understand this technical answer, but I have included a REW graph showing my 4 subs at two different volume levels.
As you can see, by changing the subs only 5 db , there is a variation in the lines. At 41.1hz, there is a 5.3db difference, at 60.2hz a 4.9db difference and at 71.1hz a 4.1db difference. Wouldn't this 1.2db variation mean that there would be two different sets of corrections? If you level matched at one level and then changed the volume by 5 db before calibrating, wouldn't the calibration system be correcting the wrong information?
I believe this issue would exist with any calibration system and multiple subs.
Any opinions?
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post #1393 of 1605 Old 07-12-2019, 06:10 AM - Thread Starter
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I believe I noticed a significant improvement in my calibration after level matching the subs at the exact volume at which the calibration was to be performed. The technical support, Anthem and SVS, both responded to a different question than what I asked. However, an electrical engineer told me that my suspicion is correct and when you change the volume, the phase also changes. I don't completely understand this technical answer, but I have included a REW graph showing my 4 subs at two different volume levels.
As you can see, by changing the subs only 5 db , there is a variation in the lines. At 41.1hz, there is a 5.3db difference, at 60.2hz a 4.9db difference and at 71.1hz a 4.1db difference. Wouldn't this 1.2db variation mean that there would be two different sets of corrections? If you level matched at one level and then changed the volume by 5 db before calibrating, wouldn't the calibration system be correcting the wrong information?
I believe this issue would exist with any calibration system and multiple subs.
Any opinions?

What you are saying makes sense to me. There is more than one purpose involved in the level-matching process that occurs in an auto-calibration routine. First, of course, we simply want to have all of the channels playing the same volume at the MLP, so that the various speaker and subwoofer levels will sound balanced with respect to each other. But second, starting with all of the channels playing at the same volume level is probably the best way for the automated software to attempt to EQ for a flat frequency response. (This is addressed in some detail in Section II of the Guide.)

As far as I know, all of the systems of automated room EQ operate more-or-less in this way. First, they should typically attempt to level-match all of the channels to the same volume level (which in today's AVR's is typically 75db) and only after the channels are level-matched are any correction filters applied to those channels. (Does ARC not attempt to level-match the subs to the target SPL of ~75db?) Once the channels are all level-matched, correction filters are applied to minimize upward and downward deviations, at any frequencies, from the target SPL of ~75db.

After level-matching, it stands to reason that we wouldn't want to change the volume level of any channels, including the subwoofers, between the level-matching process and the auto-calibration process, although after calibration is complete, we can change any channel levels we want without changing the EQ filters that were set. We will obviously change the acoustic balance of our HT system, by increasing the volume of our subwoofers or our center channel, for instance, in accordance with our own listening preferences. But, increasing the volume of the center channel as a whole, or increasing the volume of our subwoofers as a whole, won't change the filters that try to promote an overall fairly flat frequency response.

Where things may seem to get a little more complicated at first is when we deliberately introduce PEQ changes at specific frequencies after an auto-calibration routine. That might be done by introducing a house curve from a specific frequency downward, or something of that nature. But, that is frequently done in accordance with measurements of our frequency response, with REW or something similar, so that we can see as well as hear the effects of the PEQ tweaks on our overall frequency response. And, where we are doing it based solely on our own listening preferences, we are doing it because it actually does sound better to us, and we are still leaving the rest of the EQ filters intact.

Frankly, I'm not sure why someone would want to deviate from having all of the channels level-matched before running auto-calibration. Although I'm not sure that I fully understand the phase cancellation that's occurring in the graph, I can't imagine that the auto-calibration routine could perform its job as effectively if all of the channels weren't playing at approximately the same volume, as measured at the MLP.

Regards,
Mike


Edit: Just to be clear, the issue being described in the post that follows this one, seems to be limited to ARC Genesis. It didn't seem to be a function of previous versions of ARC, and I know that is not the way that any version of Audyssey, or Dirac, or YPAO operates. The two-step process that WLC is describing is certainly something that ARC Genesis users should be aware of. Since so much of Genesis has changed/updated in just the last few months, it's hard to know if the need to level-match again, after being told to turn down the subwoofers, is a software glitch or not. If so, perhaps it will be addressed in future software updates. But, if the final result of level-matching to 75db again, after turning down the sub gains works, then that's all that really matters.
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 07-12-2019 at 07:36 AM.
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post #1394 of 1605 Old 07-12-2019, 07:17 AM
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When level matching occurs

Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
What you are saying makes sense to me. There is more than one purpose involved in the level-matching process that occurs in an auto-calibration routine. First, of course, we simply want to have all of the channels playing the same volume at the MLP, so that the various speaker and subwoofer levels will sound balanced with respect to each other. But second, starting with all of the channels playing at the same volume level is probably the best way for the automated software to attempt to EQ for a flat frequency response. (This is addressed in some detail in Section II of the Guide.)

As far as I know, all of the systems of automated room EQ operate more-or-less in this way. First, they should typically attempt to level-match all of the channels to the same volume level (which in today's AVR's is typically 75db) and only after the channels are level-matched are any correction filters applied to those channels. (Does ARC not attempt to level-match the subs to the target SPL of ~75db?) Once the channels are all level-matched, correction filters are applied to minimize upward and downward deviations, at any frequencies, from the target SPL of ~75db.

After level-matching, it stands to reason that we wouldn't want to change the volume level of any channels, including the subwoofers, between the level-matching process and the auto-calibration process, although after calibration is complete, we can change any channel levels we want without changing the EQ filters that were set. We will obviously change the acoustic balance of our HT system, by increasing the volume of our subwoofers or our center channel, for instance, in accordance with our own listening preferences. But, increasing the volume of the center channel as a whole, or increasing the volume of our subwoofers as a whole, won't change the filters that try to promote an overall fairly flat frequency response.

Where things may seem to get a little more complicated at first is when we deliberately introduce PEQ changes at specific frequencies after an auto-calibration routine. That might be done by introducing a house curve from a specific frequency downward, or something of that nature. But, that is frequently done in accordance with measurements of our frequency response, with REW or something similar, so that we can see as well as hear the effects of the PEQ tweaks on our overall frequency response. And, where we are doing it based solely on our own listening preferences, we are doing it because it actually does sound better to us, and we are still leaving the rest of the EQ filters intact.

Frankly, I'm not sure why someone would want to deviate from having all of the channels level-matched before running auto-calibration. Although I'm not sure that I fully understand the phase cancellation that's occurring in the graph, I can't imagine that the auto-calibration routine could perform its job as effectively if all of the channels weren't playing at approximately the same volume, as measured at the MLP.

Regards,
Mike
Hi Mike,

I think that the issue I'm addressing perhaps doesn't occur with Audyssey if it automatically level matches multiple subs. I've written about this issue in this thread because it appears to me to be where such issues are best addressed. Here's what I'm trying to address, although I've had trouble getting most people to understand what I'm talking about.
With Arc2, you could ignore the sub volume too loud warning and proceed. With Genesis, you can't do that. So, first you level match your subs and then Genesis tells you to lower the volume. What I'm trying to address is that after you lower the volume of the subs, you should then go through the level matching process again. As I stated above, normally helpful sources, Anthem & SVS, didn't address the issue and answered a different question than I was asking.
I know that the results I've gotten after making this discovery are remarkably better than what I got before. I'm just trying to understand why. I know what phase is, but the explanation that the electrical engineer was giving me was just beyond what I can grasp without studying it in greater depth than I plan on. However, he is a reliable resource and I trust him. At least I know that I'm not just imagining what happened.
Before Genesis, I always raised the level of my back and surround channels. With Genesis, this is no longer necessary and I get a better result leaving those channels as Genesis recommends. I also played my subs at quite a bit higher volume than the calibration suggested. Again, with Genesis this is no longer necessary or, even, desirable.
Thanks for your response.
P.S. If you are interested, I further addressed the issue of the Deep Bass Boost in the dedicated genesis thread. I posted a REW graph that I hope raised some questions about what some users are experiencing. I know you don't have genesis, but you seemed interested in the discussion.
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post #1395 of 1605 Old 07-12-2019, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Just to prove I haven't really learned anything, I'm going to use the multi-quote feature again.

Sometimes, it isn't even a matter of whether someone's post is wrong or not. I often find myself needing to add some detail to someone else's explanation, because I know that there will be other people silently reading along, who may misunderstand something if I don't. I think I have mentioned this before, but the ratio of guests to members on the Subwoofer Forum can range from about 3/1 to about 7/1, depending on the day and time of day. And, guests aren't allowed to post even if they want to.

So, for every member who reads posts on this thread and who asks a follow-up question, there may be a half-dozen guests today, and hundreds over a period of a few weeks, who would like to ask a follow-up question for clarification, and can't. For some reason, I have always felt a responsibility to address readers beyond the person who asked the original question, which is partly how the Guide was born. It's also one reason my posts tend to be fairly detailed.

But, I don't want anyone to think that I am ever discouraging anyone else from posting on the thread, or from answering any question he wants to answer. If I expand on an answer, it's almost never with the intent of contradicting or correcting someone. It's usually just a matter of clarifying and expanding on the issue for other readers.

Regards,
Mike
Bravo Zulu Mike. You make us all look bad in comparison. The very fact that you take into consideration the possible questions and concerns of "Guests" whom can not post, is incredibly considerate and definately Commendable. Well done Sir!!!! If I did not know any better, I might begin to think you are some form of advanced Acoustic Bass Analysis "AI" engine.
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post #1396 of 1605 Old 07-12-2019, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Bravo Zulu Mike. You make us all look bad in comparison. The very fact that you take into consideration the possible questions and concerns of "Guests" whom can not post, is incredibly considerate and definately Commendable. Well done Sir!!!! If I did not know any better, I might begin to think you are some form of advanced Acoustic Bass Analysis "AI" engine.

Thank you very much for the compliment, Adam. It's nice to have friends! Frankly, I would be pleased to be considered even normally intelligent. Anyone knowing my computer skills would have a very hard time considering me as any form of advanced artificial intelligence.
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #1397 of 1605 Old 07-13-2019, 06:02 PM
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Bravo Zulu Mike. You make us all look bad in comparison. The very fact that you take into consideration the possible questions and concerns of "Guests" whom can not post, is incredibly considerate and definately Commendable. Well done Sir!!!! If I did not know any better, I might begin to think you are some form of advanced Acoustic Bass Analysis "AI" engine.
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Thank you very much for the compliment, Adam. It's nice to have friends! Frankly, I would be pleased to be considered even normally intelligent. Anyone knowing my computer skills would have a very hard time considering me as any form of advanced artificial intelligence.

Actually, I think it stand for Advance Information's


Darth

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post #1398 of 1605 Old 07-14-2019, 12:00 PM
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Okay need help here. So I posted in Reddit, refuting a persons recommendation to set sub gain at 50% and the AVR trim at 0. I said doing that could cause the sub signal to clip, and was basically told that it was snake oil nonsense when I recommended a slightly higher gain setting to result in a lower negative trim setting in the AVR. More than one person said it is not going to clip the signal and basically I was wrong and spouting nonsense. I can't support my claim with links, but linked Mike's guide, to support the setting recommendations. Mike's guide, if I remember right doesn't say clipping per se, but the idea is there and honestly didn't need to be spelled out. One other person at least acknowledged clipping could happen, with a cheap junk AVR, but that LFE line clipping isn't an issue in modern receivers these days.

I trust the people here, and I have seen it mentioned time and time again to keep a negative sub trim to avoid possible clipping the signal, by people I know are knowledgable. So is this hogwash, and clipping isn't possible with a 50% or lower sub gain and a 0 AVR sub trim, and driving the system at reference or near reference levels? I don't have the super technical knowledge, but understand basic principle of clipping the sub out signal.

I don't like being told I'm making stuff up, when I relayed information I have seen repeated time and time again in this site. You all can't be wrong, right?
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Originally Posted by HYPURR DBL NKL View Post
Okay need help here. So I posted in Reddit, refuting a persons recommendation to set sub gain at 50% and the AVR trim at 0. I said doing that could cause the sub signal to clip, and was basically told that it was snake oil nonsense when I recommended a slightly higher gain setting to result in a lower negative trim setting in the AVR. More than one person said it is not going to clip the signal and basically I was wrong and spouting nonsense. I can't support my claim with links, but linked Mike's guide, to support the setting recommendations. Mike's guide, if I remember right doesn't say clipping per se, but the idea is there and honestly didn't need to be spelled out. One other person at least acknowledged clipping could happen, with a cheap junk AVR, but that LFE line clipping isn't an issue in modern receivers these days.

I trust the people here, and I have seen it mentioned time and time again to keep a negative sub trim to avoid possible clipping the signal, by people I know are knowledgable. So is this hogwash, and clipping isn't possible with a 50% or lower sub gain and a 0 AVR sub trim, and driving the system at reference or near reference levels? I don't have the super technical knowledge, but understand basic principle of clipping the sub out signal.

I don't like being told I'm making stuff up, when I relayed information I have seen repeated time and time again in this site. You all can't be wrong, right?

Hi Phil,

The information you referred to in the Guide is not wrong. Mark Seaton and Ed Mullen, two respected subwoofer designers, are both quoted on that issue. And, some other designers have also weighed in on the issue with similar comments. It's a fairly complicated issue that depends somewhat on the subwoofer, the AVR, and the listening level (and amount of subwoofer boost). So, I wouldn't say that all subs will clip with a positive AVR trim level, even at high volume levels, nor will I say that all subs will be able to reach higher max volumes with a high gain level.

But, I would say that, unless someone knows for sure, that his combination of subwoofer, AVR, and volume level will not cause his subwoofer to clip, and unless he knows for sure that his subwoofer will be able to reach higher max volume levels with a low gain setting, it's a pretty harmless precaution to take. I like to recommend harmless precautions which just may be really beneficial.

Personally, I never get into any debates over anything in the Guide (or anything at all on the Internet for that matter). I will offer information or insights which I believe to be correct. And, if I think it's going to be helpful, I may come back to offer additional clarification regarding that information or insight.

But, I don't care a thing about "winning" an Internet debate, and if someone wants to consider the advice in the Guide snake oil, he is welcome to do it. After all, the title of the Guide is deliberate. It is just intended to offer guidance. If people choose to reject that guidance, it's perfectly alright with me.

Everyone should be absolutely free to accept or reject anything in the Guide. And, of course, if someone can demonstrate where I have gotten something wrong, I will enthusiastically and immediately fix it. That has happened a couple of times, especially in the early versions of the Guide. And, I go back and add edits for additional clarification all the time, including today.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #1400 of 1605 Old 07-14-2019, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by HYPURR DBL NKL View Post
Okay need help here. So I posted in Reddit, refuting a persons recommendation to set sub gain at 50% and the AVR trim at 0. I said doing that could cause the sub signal to clip, and was basically told that it was snake oil nonsense when I recommended a slightly higher gain setting to result in a lower negative trim setting in the AVR. More than one person said it is not going to clip the signal and basically I was wrong and spouting nonsense. I can't support my claim with links, but linked Mike's guide, to support the setting recommendations. Mike's guide, if I remember right doesn't say clipping per se, but the idea is there and honestly didn't need to be spelled out. One other person at least acknowledged clipping could happen, with a cheap junk AVR, but that LFE line clipping isn't an issue in modern receivers these days.

I trust the people here, and I have seen it mentioned time and time again to keep a negative sub trim to avoid possible clipping the signal, by people I know are knowledgable. So is this hogwash, and clipping isn't possible with a 50% or lower sub gain and a 0 AVR sub trim, and driving the system at reference or near reference levels? I don't have the super technical knowledge, but understand basic principle of clipping the sub out signal.

I don't like being told I'm making stuff up, when I relayed information I have seen repeated time and time again in this site. You all can't be wrong, right?

Hi Phil,

The information you referred to in the Guide is not wrong. Mark Seaton and Ed Mullen, two respected subwoofer designers, are both quoted on that issue. And, some other designers have also weighed in on the issue with similar comments. It's a fairly complicated issue that depends somewhat on the subwoofer, the AVR, and the listening level (and amount of subwoofer boost). So, I wouldn't say that all subs will clip with a positive AVR trim level, even at high volume levels, nor will I say that all subs will be able to reach higher max volumes with a high gain level.

But, I would say that, unless someone knows for sure, that his combination of subwoofer, AVR, and volume level will not cause his subwoofer to clip, and unless he knows for sure that his subwoofer will be able to reach higher max volume levels with a low gain setting, it's a pretty harmless precaution to take. I like to recommend harmless precautions which just may be really beneficial.

Personally, I never get into any debates over anything in the Guide (or anything at all on the Internet for that matter). I will offer information or insights which I believe to be correct. And, if I think it's going to be helpful, I may come back to offer additional clarification regarding that information or insight.

But, I don't care a thing about "winning" an Internet debate, and if someone wants to consider the advice in the Guide snake oil, he is welcome to do it. After all, the title of the Guide is deliberate. It is just intended to offer guidance. If people choose to reject that guidance, it's perfectly alright with me.

Everyone should be absolutely free to accept or reject anything in the Guide. And, of course, if someone can demonstrate where I have gotten something wrong, I will enthusiastically and immediately fix it. That has happened a couple of times, especially in the early versions of the Guide. And, I go back and add edits for additional clarification all the time, including today. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

Regards,
Mike
Thanks Mike. It isn't about winning a debate, I could honestly careless about. Saying I was basically making stuff up, is what bothered me. In the end, I'll do my thing according to what I think it the best course of action, based on information available to me, which I have, by using your guide.
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Thanks Mike. It isn't about winning a debate, I could honestly careless about. Saying I was basically making stuff up, is what bothered me. In the end, I'll do my thing according to what I think it the best course of action, based on information available to me, which I have, by using your guide.

Personally I just ignore those people, since they are not willing to learn a few new things. Because their mind is made-up.
Same thing happen, when you try explaining to some people. That they should stay away from B*** speakers, since they are all marketing and way over price.
I got all types of replies, from thinking that I was an idiot to ….
Oh well, let them do the mistake. Since they do not want to learn

You are a better man, to just walk away and smile. And look like you did just that

Darth

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post #1402 of 1605 Old 07-17-2019, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by HYPURR DBL NKL View Post
Thanks Mike. It isn't about winning a debate, I could honestly careless about. Saying I was basically making stuff up, is what bothered me. In the end, I'll do my thing according to what I think it the best course of action, based on information available to me, which I have, by using your guide.

Personally I just ignore those people, since they are not willing to learn a few new things. Because their mind is made-up.
Same thing happen, when you try explaining to some people. That they should stay away from B*** speakers, since they are all marketing and way over price.
I got all types of replies, from thinking that I was an idiot to ….
Oh well, let them do the mistake. Since they do not want to learn[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

You are a better man, to just walk away and smile. And look like you did just that[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

Darth
Thank you sir. Yeah, I just let it go. Not worth it.
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Personally I just ignore those people, since they are not willing to learn a few new things. Because their mind is made-up.
Same thing happen, when you try explaining to some people. That they should stay away from B*** speakers, since they are all marketing and way over price.
I got all types of replies, from thinking that I was an idiot to ….
Oh well, let them do the mistake. Since they do not want to learn

You are a better man, to just walk away and smile. And look like you did just that

Darth

I've got a friend who has paired up two old school Infinity 3 way 15s with a B*** cube center speaker. I'm willing to give him my JBL S center when I replace it for free but he's not interested.
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I've got a friend who has paired up two old school Infinity 3 way 15s with a B*** cube center speaker. I'm willing to give him my JBL S center when I replace it for free but he's not interested.
The force is strong with the B*** marketing, for the weak mind

Joke aside, your friend doesn't know the lost of a good opportunity
Since Infinity and JBL are part of the same group of companies, from the Harman group
It would have been a major step-up, from a B*** cube center.


Darth
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I believe I noticed a significant improvement in my calibration after level matching the subs at the exact volume at which the calibration was to be performed. The technical support, Anthem and SVS, both responded to a different question than what I asked. However, an electrical engineer told me that my suspicion is correct and when you change the volume, the phase also changes. I don't completely understand this technical answer, but I have included a REW graph showing my 4 subs at two different volume levels.
...

Any opinions?

Which phase response was meant? The sub's phase response? Hopefully it does not change with volume!

Or was the phase response at the listening positions meant? Ofcourse it will change with any change in speaker-relationships.



ps: REW allows ofsetting the graphs so that they can be overlayed easily for comparison

Good sound is always the result of engineering. And engineering always starts with measuring. Consumer industry and mainstream will never tell customers about that: improvements in room acoustics are worth roughly ten (10!) times the amount spent on equipment like speakers and receivers. For example: only $500 in room treatment is worth more than spending $5000 (fivethousand) on equipment.
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Phase & Volume

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Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post
Which phase response was meant? The sub's phase response? Hopefully it does not change with volume!

Or was the phase response at the listening positions meant? Ofcourse it will change with any change in speaker-relationships.



ps: REW allows ofsetting the graphs so that they can be overlayed easily for comparison
My understanding is that whenever you change volume on the sub, the phase also changes. I stopped my friend from a more technical explanation because I would not understand it. All I can tell you is that I believe strongly that after deciding on Position 1, and on the correct sub volume for calibration, you should level match the subs and adjust phase at that position and at that volume level. I have gotten terrific results with Genesis by taking those steps. Not sure how this would effect Audyssey, but I would assume the physics principles are the same.
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My understanding is that whenever you change volume on the sub, the phase also changes.
I tried to explain that and it seems I failed.
The phase on the sub does not change with volume. Otherwise a frequency would shift in phase (= time!), just because it is appearing in the signal at different volumes.


What changes are the phase relationships at the microphone or listening position. They are simply a superposition (addition) of the sound emanating from each speaker. If one speaker is turned louder, it results in louder amplitude from that speaker and therefore it's frequencies have higher amplitude and therefore the resulting phase response from all speakers becomes more dominated by that louder speaker. That's how changing the volume of one speaker impacts phase relationships at the listening position.


It should become immediately clear, if you imagine stereo speakers and one is connected with inverted polarity. Playing back a low sine wave, say 50 Hz, will result in cancellation in the midst of the two speakers. Turning one speaker louder, makes the sound appear and the resulting phase will be dominated by the phase stemming from the louder speaker.


The same thing happens, if a sub is turned louder: the phase from that sub just becomes more dominant in the SUM of all speakers (at the microphone/listening position!).




Practical consequences?

Let's assume we have a finely created linear frequency response at the measuring position. Lets say two subs plus a few fullrange speakers contribute to the even frequency response.
It's important do understand: That FR is showing only the SUM. And only at the measurement/listening position.


By turning one sub louder, the result is not simply a louder even bass response!


The result is: ONLY the parts in the FR are emphasized, that are coming from that speaker.
We don't know the contributions of that speaker. The system was only calibrated for the SUM of all speakers!


Now imagine, based on the different positions, each speaker has it's unique paths, how the waves/frequencies travel through the room and reach the mic membrane. So each speaker contributes differently to the SUM.
It's entirely normal that one speaker emphasizes a certain frequency, while he is weak at other frequencies.
And the next speaker maybe just complements the characteristics.
So the sum of both speakers can result in an even FR. But if you turn one speaker louder, the even linearity probably vanishes.


Even if there is only one speaker working in a certain frequency range - think about one single sub: there are crossover frequencies, where other speakers take over. These are very important and in music very loud and dominant frequencies just where sub and main speakers contribute evenly - but at certain frequencies only in the SUM.
By turning the level of one up or down, changes the equilibrium of the initially even and finely crafted frequency response.


Therefore changing volumes after calibration usually does not result in a better sound.
The room calibration is working only, if the volume relationsships between speakers are maintained.
Turning all speakers the same amount louder or softer is no problem.
Making changes at the signal level is also not a problem.
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Good sound is always the result of engineering. And engineering always starts with measuring. Consumer industry and mainstream will never tell customers about that: improvements in room acoustics are worth roughly ten (10!) times the amount spent on equipment like speakers and receivers. For example: only $500 in room treatment is worth more than spending $5000 (fivethousand) on equipment.

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Thank You

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Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post
I tried to explain that and it seems I failed.
The phase on the sub does not change with volume. Otherwise a frequency would shift in phase (= time!), just because it is appearing in the signal at different volumes.


What changes are the phase relationships at the microphone or listening position. They are simply a superposition (addition) of the sound emanating from each speaker. If one speaker is turned louder, it results in louder amplitude from that speaker and therefore it's frequencies have higher amplitude and therefore the resulting phase response from all speakers becomes more dominated by that louder speaker. That's how changing the volume of one speaker impacts phase relationships at the listening position.


It should become immediately clear, if you imagine stereo speakers and one is connected with inverted polarity. Playing back a low sine wave, say 50 Hz, will result in cancellation in the midst of the two speakers. Turning one speaker louder, makes the sound appear and the resulting phase will be dominated by the phase stemming from the louder speaker.


The same thing happens, if a sub is turned louder: the phase from that sub just becomes more dominant in the SUM of all speakers (at the microphone/listening position!).




Practical consequences?

Let's assume we have a finely created linear frequency response at the measuring position. Lets say two subs plus a few fullrange speakers contribute to the even frequency response.
It's important do understand: That FR is showing only the SUM. And only at the measurement/listening position.


By turning one sub louder, the result is not simply a louder even bass response!


The result is: ONLY the parts in the FR are emphasized, that are coming from that speaker.
We don't know the contributions of that speaker. The system was only calibrated for the SUM of all speakers!


Now imagine, based on the different positions, each speaker has it's unique paths, how the waves/frequencies travel through the room and reach the mic membrane. So each speaker contributes differently to the SUM.
It's entirely normal that one speaker emphasizes a certain frequency, while he is weak at other frequencies.
And the next speaker maybe just complements the characteristics.
So the sum of both speakers can result in an even FR. But if you turn one speaker louder, the even linearity probably vanishes.


Even if there is only one speaker working in a certain frequency range - think about one single sub: there are crossover frequencies, where other speakers take over. These are very important and in music very loud and dominant frequencies just where sub and main speakers contribute evenly - but at certain frequencies only in the SUM.
By turning the level of one up or down, changes the equilibrium of the initially even and finely crafted frequency response.


Therefore changing volumes after calibration usually does not result in a better sound.
The room calibration is working only, if the volume relationsships between speakers are maintained.
Turning all speakers the same amount louder or softer is no problem.
Making changes at the signal level is also not a problem.
Thank you for this clear and detailed explanation. My friend has a Ph.D. in electrical engineering and I think has trouble explaining technical issues at the level I can understand.

I am happy to have my practical experience reinforced by knowledge.

Thanks again.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WLC View Post
Thank you for this clear and detailed explanation. My friend has a Ph.D. in electrical engineering and I think has trouble explaining technical issues at the level I can understand.

I am happy to have my practical experience reinforced by knowledge.

Thanks again.

This is the reason we all cruise, around this forum. Learning from others, and passing on our knowledge to others


Darth
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Talking about sharing.

I will be getting two new subs, and one or both will need to find new location/s due to there size.
While I did unloaded the software of REW, I must admit it is too complicated for me

Solution, would be using a test CD with a SPL meter and correction chart for the meter. Unfortunately, I cannot find my old one.
So I decided to unload this test, and burn it to a CD;
https://realtraps.com/test-cd.htm
While it look like an excellent one, I still had more problem. To see how a sub react to all bass frequencies, at a certain location.
Since my 4K Sony player has no front display. It would be still fishing in the dark, since the track playing is not confirm

Last night I thought of this, since I got a Velodyne SMS-1. One of the first calibration system for bass duty, that do send it's own signal. then show you the result.
I thought, why not use-it for finding the best location for sub 1. Than sub 2, and after. If the sum of both, play nice with each other.

Worst case scenario, I can put both subs in the best location (as long it is not the front one, because I only have space for one sub on it's side).
Since I only need the bass to sound good, for my MLP and the seat next to my right.

Once proper location/s are done. I will let my Audyssey XT32 take care, of the subs level/phase matching and final calibration.
This is my plan of attack, and welcome any comment for any flaw


Darth
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