Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences - Page 51 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1501 of 1562 Old 08-26-2019, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
And then, of course, you can go a little deeper down the rabbit hole by buying a UMIK-1, and by downloading REW which is a free measurement tool. The use of REW does require a laptop. Here is a link to that:

https://www.minidsp.com/products/aco...urement/umik-1
This would be my recommendation, as it gives you so much more information, and it's very, very accurate. I still use my radioshack meter for checking levels, but it's can't tell me anything about the actual response in my room. A mic and REW is the only way to get that info. That said, only go down this rabbit hole if you're willing to make changes. There's no point driving yourself crazy with frequency response graphs if you can't move stuff around, or add panels/bass traps. In that case, it's probably better to be a little ignorant.
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post #1502 of 1562 Old 08-26-2019, 12:01 PM
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Hello,
Is there a difference in sound quality of Bass Management through a receiver, or Bass Management through an average subwoofer?
Is that Hz knob on a sub and underlying filter important for the final sound quality when the speaker wires are run from Amp to Sub to Speakers ?

Suppose i connect my Stereo Amp on the preout of a receiver and use BM, or connect the Amp through a subwoofer with High Level IN and using the B M in the sub.
Will there be an (audible) difference in it, or does it all make little difference and the "sound quality" of the Amp remains as it is, only filtered (say 80 Hz) for the speakers...….
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post #1503 of 1562 Old 08-26-2019, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
Hello,
Is there a difference in sound quality of Bass Management through a receiver, or Bass Management through an average subwoofer?
Is that Hz knob on a sub and underlying filter important for the final sound quality when the speaker wires are run from Amp to Sub to Speakers ?

Suppose i connect my Stereo Amp on the preout of a receiver and use BM, or connect the Amp through a subwoofer with High Level IN and using the B M in the sub.
Will there be an (audible) difference in it, or does it all make little difference and the "sound quality" of the Amp remains as it is, only filtered (say 80 Hz) for the speakers...….
Assuming competent bass management in both the receiver and the sub, I don't think there should be a difference in sound quality. That said, I think for most people it's easier to get the settings right in their receiver (again, assuming your receiver doesn't mess up bass management).
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post #1504 of 1562 Old 08-26-2019, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post
Assuming competent bass management in both the receiver and the sub, I don't think there should be a difference in sound quality. That said, I think for most people it's easier to get the settings right in their receiver (again, assuming your receiver doesn't mess up bass management).
Thanks for your thoughts :-)
Will B M effect sound quality one way or the other compared to what the receiver or amp will do without B M ?
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post #1505 of 1562 Old 08-26-2019, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
Thanks for your thoughts :-)
Will B M effect sound quality one way or the other compared to what the receiver or amp will do without B M ?
I'm not 100% sure I understand your question. If you're asking whether there will be a difference between bass management vs. no bass management, then the answer is definitely yes. A sub without any bass management will not sound right. Now that said, if your receiver/processor/integrated amplifier can't do bass management, or does it wrong, the controls on many sub amps will allow you to integrated it into your room. Depending on the sub, those controls may be very crude or very fine, but none of them will be plug and play.
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post #1506 of 1562 Old 08-26-2019, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post
I'm not 100% sure I understand your question. If you're asking whether there will be a difference between bass management vs. no bass management, then the answer is definitely yes. A sub without any bass management will not sound right. Now that said, if your receiver/processor/integrated amplifier can't do bass management, or does it wrong, the controls on many sub amps will allow you to integrated it into your room. Depending on the sub, those controls may be very crude or very fine, but none of them will be plug and play.
I will try again

My speakers (Gallo Strada 2) need B M as they can not produce any serious bass.
Subwoofer is Magnat Tempus 300 with high level IN.

1) use the B M of a receiver and put my amp on the pre-out of the receiver, so the amp will use the B M of the receiver.

2) use the B M of the sub, so connect high level to high level IN on the sub and the speaker to high level out.

If i wan to do option 2 and stop using the receiver, will using the B M of the sub be just as "good" (sound wise) as using the B M of the receiver ?
Maybe they use cheap crappy B M's in subwoofers or will this be just the same as any B M ?
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post #1507 of 1562 Old 08-26-2019, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
I will try again

My speakers (Gallo Strada 2) need B M as they can not produce any serious bass.
Subwoofer is Magnat Tempus 300 with high level IN.

1) use the B M of a receiver and put my amp on the pre-out of the receiver, so the amp will use the B M of the receiver.

2) use the B M of the sub, so connect high level to high level IN on the sub and the speaker to high level out.

If i wan to do option 2 and stop using the receiver, will using the B M of the sub be just as "good" (sound wise) as using the B M of the receiver ?
Maybe they use cheap crappy B M's in subwoofers or will this be just the same as any B M ?
The details on your sub help quite a bit. I went to the website, it doesn't look like you can finely tune phase or distance. With that in mind, I would recommend using BM in the receiver if at all possible.
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post #1508 of 1562 Old 08-26-2019, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post
The details on your sub help quite a bit. I went to the website, it doesn't look like you can finely tune phase or distance. With that in mind, I would recommend using BM in the receiver if at all possible.
Thanks :-)
Clear, using the sub or receiver will not effect the sound quality, its just that the receiver will do (in this case with the Tempus) a better job on distance and phase.
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post #1509 of 1562 Old 08-27-2019, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
For recommendation, I do not have one since I have been out of the market for a long time. Mine is a old Radio Shack.
That said, unless using a SPL for precise calibration for different frequencies.
I personally think, any descent one would do. If use for level adjustment only using a manual test tone, from your AVR.
It should have no problem to put you in the ball park, to have your subs playing at the same level. Since it is not just one frequencies, but a combination of frequency.

I also look-up your Denon 3400. Good news indeed, it is not one of those AVR that use an internal Y-splitter. Since it use XT-32
So matching the subs levels and delays, after you put them near the same output level using the gain level on both subs.
Will be a breeze

Darth
Thank you for the input. I guess I should have noted the 3400 had XT32. It's the lowest model with this feature.

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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Thanks for the kind words, guys!

I agree with Darth that almost any SPL meter would work, since you would just be using it to level-match subwoofers, and it's error factor should be irrelevant for that. But, I like the idea of being able to check my volume levels with a little more accuracy, and for that a calibrated SPL meter is more helpful.

I would recommend the Galaxy CM-140, but the price on those has gone up a good bit since I bought mine several years ago. I did a quick Amazon search and came up with a long list. The first one looks like a good one:

https://www.amazon.com/VLIKE-Digital...s%2C145&sr=8-3

Another alternative would be a Dayton Audio iMM-6. That will allow you to measure more than just your SPL, and it works with your smartphone, so you don't need to use a laptop as you would with a UMIK-1 and REW. It is actually less expensive than most of the decent SPL meters, although its use is necessarily more complicated than just using an SPL meter. Here is a link for it:

http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php...icrophone.html

And then, of course, you can go a little deeper down the rabbit hole by buying a UMIK-1, and by downloading REW which is a free measurement tool. The use of REW does require a laptop. Here is a link to that:

https://www.minidsp.com/products/aco...urement/umik-1

I felt that it was appropriate to list options, rather than to just make suggestions for a calibrated SPL meter, for others who may also be reading along and whose interests may range from SPL measurement to frequency response and beyond.

Regards,
Mike
Thank you or the list of options. I did more research on REW yesterday and decided that making changes (as Bluescale mentioned below) in my living room is very limited, and with that said I probably don't want to know what REW would tell me. I'm leaning towards the SPL Meter route for now to balance out the subs along with being able to tweak the other speakers in the system post-calibration. One question, what would the Galaxy CM-140 give me over say the VLike meter?



Regards,
Bert
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post #1510 of 1562 Old 09-02-2019, 02:36 AM
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When connecting the minidsp DDRC-24 to my Pioneer A70s integrated amplifier, should I use the power amp direct connection to control the volume only via MiniDSP IR controller?

Or should I just use another input and set the volume control of the amplfier at something fixed like 12 o clock?

I'm asking this because I don't have a receiver, so will be connectig the sub directly to the MiniDSP (out 3) and then use the out 1 and 2 to my amplifier..
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post #1511 of 1562 Old 09-02-2019, 07:28 PM
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Paradigm Perfect Bass Kit

Hi,

Not sure if this is the correct forum so please re direct. I am looking for some help using the Paradigm Perfect Bass kit. I have it connected using the USB cable and it does the 5 position measurement fine however when uploading the new curve to the sub it keeps coming up with a error message saying it lost the connection. I have to unplug the power and the USB from the sub and re try to upload and at about 70% it loses the connection?

Thanks,
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post #1512 of 1562 Old 09-03-2019, 08:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MattiasG View Post
When connecting the minidsp DDRC-24 to my Pioneer A70s integrated amplifier, should I use the power amp direct connection to control the volume only via MiniDSP IR controller?

Or should I just use another input and set the volume control of the amplfier at something fixed like 12 o clock?

I'm asking this because I don't have a receiver, so will be connectig the sub directly to the MiniDSP (out 3) and then use the out 1 and 2 to my amplifier..
Quote:
Originally Posted by PG55 View Post
Hi,

Not sure if this is the correct forum so please re direct. I am looking for some help using the Paradigm Perfect Bass kit. I have it connected using the USB cable and it does the 5 position measurement fine however when uploading the new curve to the sub it keeps coming up with a error message saying it lost the connection. I have to unplug the power and the USB from the sub and re try to upload and at about 70% it loses the connection?

Thanks,
PG55

Hi,

Since both of these questions involve similar themes, and may have the same answers, I'll try to answer them together. In both cases, I would try contacting tech support for my specific product. It's perfectly alright to ask questions like these on this thread. But, the odds of someone reading this thread, who has direct experience with the specific product or issue that you are inquiring about, are pretty low.

In the case of the DDRC-24, I consulted the owner's manual to see if it would give me any insight on the specific question being asked, and it didn't. I would either just experiment by trying it both ways, or I would consult Dirac tech support.

In the case of the Paradigm Perfect Bass Kit, I would definitely contact Paradigm tech support.

I hope this response helps, and I'm sorry that I couldn't help more.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #1513 of 1562 Old 09-10-2019, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
Thanks :-)
Clear, using the sub or receiver will not effect the sound quality, its just that the receiver will do (in this case with the Tempus) a better job on distance and phase.
It's worth investigating what the receiver is actually doing when modifying bass. My Marantz, for example, has 3 options to increase bass: 1) change bass on just one input 2) change bass relative to the Audyssey results 3) change bass while over-riding what Audyssey has calculated. Each option is in a completely different menu tree, with option 3 being potentially harmful to the subs.
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post #1514 of 1562 Old 09-10-2019, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by cathodeRay View Post
It's worth investigating what the receiver is actually doing when modifying bass. My Marantz, for example, has 3 options to increase bass: 1) change bass on just one input 2) change bass relative to the Audyssey results 3) change bass while over-riding what Audyssey has calculated. Each option is in a completely different menu tree, with option 3 being potentially harmful to the subs.
While I find your post a little bit confusing, since I do not understand why just one input (should be Output [for two subs, if only having one sub. It tell me that you are using Output number 1 or 2]). Having a Marantz myself, I do the following.
I run the Audyssey XT32, to figure the distance for the delay. And small adjustment in volume if needed, if your subs were properly match for the gain from the subs (assuming you have two of them).

Once Audyseey did a full calibration, I only raise the subs level in the menu (under sub level). By the amount that I like, and live-it at that


Darth

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In my small bed room setup i am running a 5.0 setup without a sub. The receiver has set my front (Elac B6) as large. Is there a way i can restrict the receiver to keep front to take load only upto say 30or40kzh and not go low beyond it?

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post #1516 of 1562 Old 09-10-2019, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murlidher View Post
In my small bed room setup i am running a 5.0 setup without a sub. The receiver has set my front (Elac B6) as large. Is there a way i can restrict the receiver to keep front to take load only upto say 30or40kzh and not go low beyond it?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Somewhere in your set-up menu after calibration, you should have an option for all five of your speakers. To tell the AVR what frequencies cut off you desire for each speakers, and if you want to theme to be Large or Small. You just change your main to either 80, 60, 40Hz or any number in between. Most AVR/AVP go by 10 +/-Hz adjustment increment.


Darth
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post #1517 of 1562 Old 09-11-2019, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murlidher View Post
In my small bed room setup i am running a 5.0 setup without a sub. The receiver has set my front (Elac B6) as large. Is there a way i can restrict the receiver to keep front to take load only upto say 30or40kzh and not go low beyond it?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
As you are not using a sub then be thankful it set them to Large which if they reach down to 40 Hz would be the correct setting

what crossover does the receiver set the other speakers to?

why no sub?
without having one you will be missing out on quite a lot
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post #1518 of 1562 Old 09-11-2019, 03:41 AM
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mthomas47, first thank you for creating this thread. I must apologise in advance as I haven't read the entire thread, just about 6-7 pages and I wanted your feedback on this.

When setting speaker/subwoofer levels, I've always used my AVR internal test tones and a Ratshack SPL meter, C-weighting and Slow. Some people I've spoken to have recommended that I DO NOT use the internal AVR test tones, and instead use an external source (test disk), or REW for the tones.

What is your take on this?

Second question, some people have recommended I ditch the Ratshack meter and instead get a UMIK-1 as it's more accurate for setting speaker/subwoofer levels. Is there any truth to this?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
While I find your post a little bit confusing, since I do not understand why just one input (should be Output [for two subs, if only having one sub. It tell me that you are using Output number 1 or 2]). Having a Marantz myself, I do the following.
I run the Audyssey XT32, to figure the distance for the delay. And small adjustment in volume if needed, if your subs were properly match for the gain from the subs (assuming you have two of them).

Once Audyseey did a full calibration, I only raise the subs level in the menu (under sub level). By the amount that I like, and live-it at that


Darth
jdsmoothie in the 2016 Marantz thread can quote the exact menu locations and results, or pick your specific Marantz thread. By input I mean "bluray player hdmi in" or one of the others noted on the back of the unit, I believe that option is done with the sidebar-like 'on screen' menu that can be chosen while watching a bluray, etc.. It will only adjust a speaker's output when using that particular input. I don't know which models have which menu picks, but I have a 6011. But, there are 3 options.
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post #1520 of 1562 Old 09-11-2019, 06:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan Mire View Post
mthomas47, first thank you for creating this thread. I must apologise in advance as I haven't read the entire thread, just about 6-7 pages and I wanted your feedback on this.

When setting speaker/subwoofer levels, I've always used my AVR internal test tones and a Ratshack SPL meter, C-weighting and Slow. Some people I've spoken to have recommended that I DO NOT use the internal AVR test tones, and instead use an external source (test disk), or REW for the tones.

What is your take on this?

Second question, some people have recommended I ditch the Ratshack meter and instead get a UMIK-1 as it's more accurate for setting speaker/subwoofer levels. Is there any truth to this?

Hi Stephan,

You are very welcome! The thread itself is an interesting discussion forum, but the real purpose of the thread was to create a "Sticky" thread for the Guide. I hope that over time (because it's very long to read all at once) people will find the encyclopedic Guide useful too.

From your first question, I take it that you aren't using an auto calibration routine in your AVR. Most modern AVR's will measure speaker/subwoofer levels and auto-calibrate them to the same volume levels. Doing it that way will be especially helpful because the AVR will automatically calibrate your speakers/subs to Dolby/THX Reference. Section II-A of the Guide explains that process in some detail. That is the process I would recommend using.

If you do want to calibrate your HT system yourself, there is nothing wrong with using the internal test tones in your AVR. Using an external disk is preferred when checking levels that have already been auto-calibrated by your AVR, but most AVR's do that auto-calibration very accurately. (There may be some specific exceptions to that, but Denon/Marantz, Yamaha, NAD, Sony, for instance, should all be pretty capable.)

There is no question that using a UMIK-1 would be a more accurate way to measure SPL than with a Radio Shack SPL meter. Particularly for the lower bass frequencies played by your subwoofers, the inexpensive SPL meter will be extremely inaccurate. There are correction tables that are available online to help account for the inaccuracy of uncalibrated SPL meters, but they simply offer relatively more accuracy. They still aren't giving you real accuracy.

A UMIK-1 has an error factor of approximately +/- 1.5db all the way down to about 10Hz. But, combined with REW (which is a free download) the UMIK-1 allows you to do much more than just measure SPL. It also allows you to measure your frequency response, among other things, which can be very useful in a number of ways. There is a pretty good learning curve involved in the effective use of REW, but there is also a lot of help available in learning to use REW and to interpret the results.

Here is a link to a thread devoted to the use of REW:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...et-graphs.html

My advice would be to start by using the auto-calibration routine in my AVR, if you have one. If you don't have one, then a calibrated microphone, such as a UMIK-1 would definitely be a better way to set volume levels, especially for subwoofers. As noted above however, if your AVR does have an auto-calibration routine, that is typically a very reliable way to set equivalent volume levels for all of your speakers/subs. Then, if you wish to add more subwoofer volume, for instance, simply add whatever amount sounds correct to you.

As you read more of the Guide, and as you are more willing to go further down the rabbit hole in pursuit of improved frequency response, you may wish to explore the use of REW for its own sake. That's the point at which I would add a UMIK-1, unless you don't have auto-calibration.

I hope this helps!

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #1521 of 1562 Old 09-11-2019, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan Mire View Post
mthomas47, first thank you for creating this thread. I must apologise in advance as I haven't read the entire thread, just about 6-7 pages and I wanted your feedback on this.

When setting speaker/subwoofer levels, I've always used my AVR internal test tones and a Ratshack SPL meter, C-weighting and Slow. Some people I've spoken to have recommended that I DO NOT use the internal AVR test tones, and instead use an external source (test disk), or REW for the tones.

What is your take on this?

Second question, some people have recommended I ditch the Ratshack meter and instead get a UMIK-1 as it's more accurate for setting speaker/subwoofer levels. Is there any truth to this?
This might help answer your question as to some of the reasons it’s not advised to use the internal test tones, though can be useful if you know the limitations.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post58399078
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SPEAKERS: Ohm (mains), Chane 2.4 (center), Rythmik F12G (sub), DefTech ProMonitor 80 (sats)
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post #1522 of 1562 Old 09-11-2019, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mactavish View Post
This might help answer your question as to some of the reasons it’s not advised to use the internal test tones, though can be useful if you know the limitations.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post58399078

Hi,

Perhaps you interpreted the OP's question differently than I did, but I don't believe that he is allowing his AVR to calibrate his sound levels. If he were allowing his AVR to calibrate his system, then he wouldn't be using the test tones to set his speaker/subwoofer levels. Your post on the Audyssey thread is correct. The internal test tones bypass the filters that Audyssey sets, so you could get slightly different results if you double-checked the volume levels, post-Audyssey, using the internal test tones.

But, even if he has Audyssey, he can't be using it unless he is letting his Denon/Marantz AVR calibrate his HT system. Audyssey filters are only set after a full calibration has been run, including setting trim levels and distances (timing).

That's why I told him that if his AVR weren't calibrating his HT system, that it was alright to use the internal test tones in his AVR to set his volume levels. I hope that he will use the auto-calibration routine in his AVR. That's generally the best way to set speaker levels, and will typically be superior to using an external test disc with an uncalibrated SPL meter. But, if he doesn't allow his AVR to calibrate the volume levels, and instead prefers to set them himself with an SPL meter, then the internal test tones will be fine.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #1523 of 1562 Old 09-12-2019, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

Perhaps you interpreted the OP's question differently than I did, but I don't believe that he is allowing his AVR to calibrate his sound levels. If he were allowing his AVR to calibrate his system, then he wouldn't be using the test tones to set his speaker/subwoofer levels. Your post on the Audyssey thread is correct. The internal test tones bypass the filters that Audyssey sets, so you could get slightly different results if you double-checked the volume levels, post-Audyssey, using the internal test tones.

But, even if he has Audyssey, he can't be using it unless he is letting his Denon/Marantz AVR calibrate his HT system. Audyssey filters are only set after a full calibration has been run, including setting trim levels and distances (timing).

That's why I told him that if his AVR weren't calibrating his HT system, that it was alright to use the internal test tones in his AVR to set his volume levels. I hope that he will use the auto-calibration routine in his AVR. That's generally the best way to set speaker levels, and will typically be superior to using an external test disc with an uncalibrated SPL meter. But, if he doesn't allow his AVR to calibrate the volume levels, and instead prefers to set them himself with an SPL meter, then the internal test tones will be fine.

Regards,
Mike
FWIW, I was curious about this myself. I had read that using the internal test tones after an Audyssey calibration was a no no and you needed to use an external test disk or similar. So using Rew I did some comparisons. The only place I saw any major deviations in SPL between the internal AVR test tones and using a calibration disk test tones (Once I level matched the tone volumes), was in the Sub channels. All the remaining channels were within +/- 1-2 Dbs from each other. Of course this was a one time experiment, and may be room specific as others might discover larger variances. The Subs were off by about 4-5 dbs with the Test Disk being considerably louder here. The variance was larger for one sub over the other. As expected the Sub that is corner loaded had a smaller variance as opposed to the Sub that is not corner loaded.

My conclusions, I can use the internal test tones (basically because it's easier and quicker) for making trim level adjustments on all channels except the Subwoofers, and be within 1-2 dbs. Close enough in my case.

I regret I did not run any other graphs or plots and only did the SPL comparisons. Did my post calibration trim adjustments create any spikes or dips in the FR? I doubt it, and think at most it only increased/decreased the existing FR curve baseline level. But I have no data to really know this.

I am open to comments from those who know far more about this than I, on what I did wrong or could have caused?
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post #1524 of 1562 Old 09-12-2019, 07:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
FWIW, I was curious about this myself. I had read that using the internal test tones after an Audyssey calibration was a no no and you needed to use an external test disk or similar. So using Rew I did some comparisons. The only place I saw any major deviations in SPL between the internal AVR test tones and using a calibration disk test tones (Once I level matched the tone volumes), was in the Sub channels. All the remaining channels were within +/- 1-2 Dbs from each other. Of course this was a one time experiment, and may be room specific as others might discover larger variances. The Subs were off by about 4-5 dbs with the Test Disk being considerably louder here. The variance was larger for one sub over the other. As expected the Sub that is corner loaded had a smaller variance as opposed to the Sub that is not corner loaded.

My conclusions, I can use the internal test tones (basically because it's easier and quicker) for making trim level adjustments on all channels except the Subwoofers, and be within 1-2 dbs. Close enough in my case.

I regret I did not run any other graphs or plots and only did the SPL comparisons. Did my post calibration trim adjustments create any spikes or dips in the FR? I doubt it, and think at most it only increased/decreased the existing FR curve baseline level. But I have no data to really know this.

I am open to comments from those who know far more about this than I, on what I did wrong or could have caused?

Hi Adam,

I am not sure that I know far more than anybody else, but I will add a couple of thoughts. First, I don't think you did anything wrong in your experiments. It makes sense to me that the room would have much more influence on the bass frequencies, played by the subwoofers, than it would on the frequencies played by the other speakers in your system. That is consistent with audio theory, and it is the reason that room EQ can be so helpful for those low-frequencies.

It makes sense that Audyssey would have been affecting the frequency response of the subwoofers, and their corresponding level-matched SPL, more than it would have been affecting the FR and SPL of the other speakers. And, consequently it makes sense that you would have measured greater variation in SPL between the internal test tones for the subwoofers, that bypassed the Audyssey filters, compared to the internal test tones for the other speakers.

I think it is also worth pointing-out the practical implications of making trim level adjustments to the speakers or subwoofers. When we do that, post-calibration, we are doing it to achieve a specific objective. For instance, I occasionally find that some movie soundtracks are somewhat left or right-centric. Whether that is a glitch in the way they were originally recorded, or whether it is a glitch in the way they are broadcast, I may sometimes add or subtract some trim somewhere to better balance the sound between left and right. (People also do that with surround channels.) We may even have a little sinus in one ear sometimes which requires some trim adjustments in some listening sessions.

Whenever we make those trim adjustments, we are simply seasoning our sound to our personal tastes at that moment. If it sounds better that way, then it does, in my personal opinion. So, sort of by definition, there can't be anything wrong with using any of our trim controls, including the internal test tones in the speaker menu, as we please. After all, we are just enhancing our own audio entertainment, just as we are with our volume control and subwoofer boosts. If it sounds better, it is better. That's my take on your post, for whatever it's worth.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #1525 of 1562 Old 09-12-2019, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by murlidher View Post
In my small bed room setup i am running a 5.0 setup without a sub. The receiver has set my front (Elac B6) as large. Is there a way i can restrict the receiver to keep front to take load only upto say 30or40kzh and not go low beyond it?

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There is no way to set crossovers if there is nothing to cross over to. No sub = Mains must be set to Large. You can set your center and surrounds to small, but the bass will be sent to the Large mains.
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post #1526 of 1562 Old 09-12-2019, 04:30 PM
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I re-read the entire guide, and it convinced me to set my front towers back to 80hz (as opposed to 60hz or 40hz; they roll off at 32hs ish)

They do have built-in 10" woofers with their own amp and power supply, but it was interesting to be reminded that they still don't compare to a dedicated subwoofer when it comes to driving the loads loud and cleanly and distortion free.

My only OCD that is bugging me is that XT32 finds my surrounds at 90hz (they always come out to 80hz when running through the AVR). I still drop them down to 80 since it's so close, and the crude before and after graphs show it rolling off smooth below 80 but a small null at like 85. It's such a small gap between 80 and 90hz that I think I'm OK =/

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post #1527 of 1562 Old 09-12-2019, 06:06 PM
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Somewhere in your set-up menu after calibration, you should have an option for all five of your speakers. To tell the AVR what frequencies cut off you desire for each speakers, and if you want to theme to be Large or Small. You just change your main to either 80, 60, 40Hz or any number in between. Most AVR/AVP go by 10 +/-Hz adjustment increment.

Darth
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
There is no way to set crossovers if there is nothing to cross over to. No sub = Mains must be set to Large. You can set your center and surrounds to small, but the bass will be sent to the Large mains.
I was not aware of this on my previous post, since I never did use 5 speakers without a sub.
So my Bad, and stand corrected. And big enough to admit that was wrong


Darth
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post #1528 of 1562 Old 09-12-2019, 07:23 PM
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Thanks all for the answers. The room is so small that i felt no space to keep any sub. Hence thought to use without sub with bookshelves running as large to watch Amazon prime movies. I do have main setup with sub in diffrent room though...

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post #1529 of 1562 Old 09-12-2019, 07:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I was not aware of this on my previous post, since I never did use 5 speakers without a sub.
So my Bad, and stand corrected. And big enough to admit that was wrong

Darth

Hi Darth,

I was just looking at your theater thread again, and reading your tribute to your buddy, Smoky. You are not only big enough to admit mistakes, your heart is big enough for two people. I just wanted you to know that!

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #1530 of 1562 Old 09-13-2019, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
I re-read the entire guide, and it convinced me to set my front towers back to 80hz (as opposed to 60hz or 40hz; they roll off at 32hs ish)

They do have built-in 10" woofers with their own amp and power supply, but it was interesting to be reminded that they still don't compare to a dedicated subwoofer when it comes to driving the loads loud and cleanly and distortion free.

My only OCD that is bugging me is that XT32 finds my surrounds at 90hz (they always come out to 80hz when running through the AVR). I still drop them down to 80 since it's so close, and the crude before and after graphs show it rolling off smooth below 80 but a small null at like 85. It's such a small gap between 80 and 90hz that I think I'm OK =/
Hi pbz06,

I was hoping one of the big dogs in here was going to address this, but since it has not been mentioned yet. I will attempt to address what I read as a possible, very minor error, in your post calibration crossover settings/tweak.

Concerning your Surrounds crossover setting. If my memory serves, and sometimes it does not! Setting a Speakers crossover LOWER than that of what Audyssey sets is not recommended. Here is why it is not. When Audyssey determines the F3 or Crossover point of a given Speaker, it then applies that crossover value as a "lower" end limit on where it will set/apply EQ filters. Audyssey then ignores EQing the FR below this point (90Hz in your case), since the Audyssey algorithm now assumes any sound produced below this 90Hz Crossover will be low enough in volume to be of minimal influence on the soundfield.

Therefore if post Audyssey the user manually sets the crossover to a lower value, you are now introducing Sound below the point there Audyssey has set EQ filters. Is it a big deal? I doubt it with such a small change (From 90Hz to 80Hz in this case). But I thought you should at least be aware of this fact.

While raising the Crossover from what Audyssey sets is fine since EQ filters have been calculated and put in place for the FR above set Crossover. The rule of thumb I remember, is it is ok to Raise Crossover points, but never lower them beyond Calibration settings.

Anybody correct me here If I am incorrect in my powers of recollection ?

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