Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences - Page 53 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 2728Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1561 of 1619 Old 09-20-2019, 09:58 AM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 100
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 43 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntmx24 View Post
why do you recommend just lfe and not lfe+main? Sorry just learning this. Is it not better to let some of the bass from the speaker transfer to the subs since they can handle it better?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntmx24 View Post
I will experiment with it and see what sounds best

Hi,

You can certainly experiment and just go with your preference, but the odds of LFE+Main actually improving your sound quality are very small. LFE+Main allows both the speakers and the subwoofers to play some of the same bass content, which is exactly what the crossovers from the speakers to the subs were designed to prevent.

If I were you, I would reread Section III of the Guide. There is way too much information in the Guide to absorb at a single sitting, and LFE+Main is a good example of that. What LFE+Main does, and why it is generally inadvisable to use that particular setting, are explained in some detail in Section III-D.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks for the response. I will go back and take a look at that section again! Thank you!
mthomas47 likes this.
Huntmx24 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1562 of 1619 Old 09-20-2019, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,334
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5540 Post(s)
Liked: 10681
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
LFE+Main does nothing when your front speakers are set to Small.

If you have your mains set to Large, LFE+Main will send frequencies below the crossover to both the mains and the subs. This is usually not recommended.


EDIT: Mike beat me to it!

Hi Alan,

I decided to add something to this discussion, since some of the owner's manuals can be so confusing. For instance, I just pulled the following quote from the Denon website after an LFE+Main Google search.


"In the Speaker Configuration menu, when the speaker channel is set to "Small" the Bass Setting or *Subwoofer Mode menu can be set to LFE or LFE + Main. This will pass all frequencies under the crossover point to the Subwoofer.
If the speaker channel is set to "Large" you may want to set the Bass Setting or *Subwoofer Mode set to LFE + MAIN as this setting will duplicate the low frequencies to the Subwoofer. If you set the Bass Setting or *Subwoofer Mode to LFE nothing will output to the Subwoofer with the exception of the LFE from a Dolby or DTS encoded track.


LFE (Low Frequency Effect) - The discrete content sent to the subwoofer from a Dolby or DTS encoded audio track. (The .1 in a 5.1 or 7.1 audio track)


LFE + Main - The low frequencies output to the Subwoofer whether the speaker channels are set to Large or Small."




This is part of the reason why people get confused about the settings. That explanation contains several inaccuracies, including the very last sentence. A simple way to think of the issue is along the lines of what Alan said. If you set your speakers to Small, then all of the bass content in the regular channels, below the crossover you set, will be sent to the subwoofers. And, all of the LFE (.1 low-frequency effects) content will be sent to the subwoofers.


If you set your speakers to Large, then any bass content, including LFE content which was specifically designed to be played by the subwoofers, will be played by your front speakers, and no bass content will be sent to the subwoofers.


If you set your speakers to Large, and engage LFE+Main, the subwoofers will still be the only transducers playing LFE content, but the speakers and the subwoofers will duplicate the bass in the regular channels. It is that duplication that we generally want to avoid, for the reasons explained in Section III-D of the Guide.


This is one of those times where the user manuals can be the opposite of helpful. But, the KISS principle applies here. If you want to allow your subwoofers to operate as they were designed to do, it is almost always best to set speakers to Small with a crossover, and to leave LFE+Main alone.


Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 09-20-2019 at 03:09 PM. Reason: Format issue
mthomas47 is offline  
post #1563 of 1619 Old 09-22-2019, 01:59 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Bluescale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,721
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 816 Post(s)
Liked: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Alan,

I decided to add something to this discussion, since some of the owner's manuals can be so confusing. For instance, I just pulled the following quote from the Denon website after an LFE+Main Google search.


"In the Speaker Configuration menu, when the speaker channel is set to "Small" the Bass Setting or *Subwoofer Mode menu can be set to LFE or LFE + Main. This will pass all frequencies under the crossover point to the Subwoofer.
If the speaker channel is set to "Large" you may want to set the Bass Setting or *Subwoofer Mode set to LFE + MAIN as this setting will duplicate the low frequencies to the Subwoofer. If you set the Bass Setting or *Subwoofer Mode to LFE nothing will output to the Subwoofer with the exception of the LFE from a Dolby or DTS encoded track.


LFE (Low Frequency Effect) - The discrete content sent to the subwoofer from a Dolby or DTS encoded audio track. (The .1 in a 5.1 or 7.1 audio track)


LFE + Main - The low frequencies output to the Subwoofer whether the speaker channels are set to Large or Small."




This is part of the reason why people get confused about the settings. That explanation contains several inaccuracies, including the very last sentence.
Wow...that's just horrible. This is one of those instances where RTFM is likely to send people down the wrong path.
darthray and mthomas47 like this.
Bluescale is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1564 of 1619 Old 09-22-2019, 06:31 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
darthray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cold lake Alberta Canada
Posts: 6,722
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2298 Post(s)
Liked: 3361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post
Wow...that's just horrible. This is one of those instances where RTFM is likely to send people down the wrong path.
One of the reason, I always set my tower to small (been another reason) and LFE only. Even when I was experimenting, I never did quit like results of Main + LFE.
That said, it was for my personal impression, and others may differ.


Darth
mthomas47 and bertk like this.

Last edited by darthray; 09-22-2019 at 06:36 PM.
darthray is offline  
post #1565 of 1619 Old 09-27-2019, 06:49 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
darthray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cold lake Alberta Canada
Posts: 6,722
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2298 Post(s)
Liked: 3361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Carpet sliders are cheap, Darth...hernia surgery is not. Ask me how I know.
Hi Alan,

Yesterday, my Wife got me one of these. Since she know that I will be getting two Rythmik FV18, in mid Nov;
https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/o...0503p.html#srp

Once I saw what she got me, my first thought was. This is going to be great to move, my new FV18 into the Theater. And my present dual PB13 Ultra, out of that room.
Once near the final position and unboxed, I will use the carpet slider provided with my FV18.
And my very next thought, was one of previous post to me. The reason, I bring this old post back quoted above


Darth
Alan P likes this.

Last edited by darthray; 09-28-2019 at 06:57 PM.
darthray is offline  
post #1566 of 1619 Old 09-28-2019, 03:17 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 280
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 212 Post(s)
Liked: 225
Conflicting information?

I wanted to ask an SVS about AVR trim vs subwoofer volume level and I was told that a trim up to 0 is fine and also it seems like the subwoofer amp needs headroom for demanding scenes so setting the volume knob very high isn't a good idea apparently. I have a PB-1000. Here's part of the transcript:

(08:43:28) Me: Just a couple of questions regarding the volume knob on my PB1000. 1. How much dB of volume does each indent on the knob give? 2. Are there any drawbacks of having the subwoofer volume control at max or close to max? I'm thinking about setting the subwoofer trim on the AVR to -12 as I've read it's best to have the voltage come from the sub's amp rather than the AVR. I know a trim of up to -5 on the AVR is fine but if using the volume knob on the sub is better than increasing the AVR trim, why not set the trim to -12 and have the gain close to max? Are there any negatives to an almost max volume setting on the subwoofer?
(08:45:02) Scott Miller: It is better to have the trim in the receiver even as high as 0 and the volume on the subwoofer at between 12-2 o'clock.
(08:45:13) Me: May I ask why?
(08:45:24) Me: I have a Denon AVR-X3300W
(08:45:44) Me: What is the problem with a high subwoofer gain?
(08:46:31) Me: I use the trigger out so auto-on is not a problem with low sub trim
(08:47:14) Scott Miller: At a level of -12 on the receiver the subwoofer is getting almost no voltage so may easily shut down during playback. Raising the receiver to 0 and dropping the subwoofer volume down gives the subwoofer amp headroom for demanding scenes rather than being maxed out
(08:49:13) Me: So even if you're using the 12V trigger, the subwoofer can shut down whilst the AVR is on?
(08:50:26) Scott Miller: It will not have it shut down but you are not getting the best out of the subwoofer and receiver
(08:51:48) Me: Okay, I think i will not go over -5 on the trim though as that's what is recommended from what I've read (I also use Dynamic EQ so perhaps that plays a part)
(08:53:26) Me: And i often listen as low at -30 to -40 on the AVR at night so there would be a lot of low frequency boost due to dynamic eq
(08:53:41) Scott Miller: Ok Dynamic volume would not be an issue, and if you don't want to go above -5 that is fine, but you can easily go up as high as 0, we don't like to see them in the positive range
(08:54:05) Me: Just to clarify, I said Dynamic EQ not dynamic volume
(08:54:22) Scott Miller: Sorry, that is fine


EDIT: When I mentioned listening at -30 to -40, I'm talking about music. I don't use my setup for movies.

Last edited by Ferrari_1996; 09-28-2019 at 03:28 PM.
Ferrari_1996 is offline  
post #1567 of 1619 Old 09-28-2019, 04:20 PM - Thread Starter
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,334
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5540 Post(s)
Liked: 10681
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari_1996 View Post
I wanted to ask an SVS about AVR trim vs subwoofer volume level and I was told that a trim up to 0 is fine and also it seems like the subwoofer amp needs headroom for demanding scenes so setting the volume knob very high isn't a good idea apparently. I have a PB-1000. Here's part of the transcript:

(08:43:28) Me: Just a couple of questions regarding the volume knob on my PB1000. 1. How much dB of volume does each indent on the knob give? 2. Are there any drawbacks of having the subwoofer volume control at max or close to max? I'm thinking about setting the subwoofer trim on the AVR to -12 as I've read it's best to have the voltage come from the sub's amp rather than the AVR. I know a trim of up to -5 on the AVR is fine but if using the volume knob on the sub is better than increasing the AVR trim, why not set the trim to -12 and have the gain close to max? Are there any negatives to an almost max volume setting on the subwoofer?
(08:45:02) Scott Miller: It is better to have the trim in the receiver even as high as 0 and the volume on the subwoofer at between 12-2 o'clock.
(08:45:13) Me: May I ask why?
(08:45:24) Me: I have a Denon AVR-X3300W
(08:45:44) Me: What is the problem with a high subwoofer gain?
(08:46:31) Me: I use the trigger out so auto-on is not a problem with low sub trim
(08:47:14) Scott Miller: At a level of -12 on the receiver the subwoofer is getting almost no voltage so may easily shut down during playback. Raising the receiver to 0 and dropping the subwoofer volume down gives the subwoofer amp headroom for demanding scenes rather than being maxed out
(08:49:13) Me: So even if you're using the 12V trigger, the subwoofer can shut down whilst the AVR is on?
(08:50:26) Scott Miller: It will not have it shut down but you are not getting the best out of the subwoofer and receiver
(08:51:48) Me: Okay, I think i will not go over -5 on the trim though as that's what is recommended from what I've read (I also use Dynamic EQ so perhaps that plays a part)
(08:53:26) Me: And i often listen as low at -30 to -40 on the AVR at night so there would be a lot of low frequency boost due to dynamic eq
(08:53:41) Scott Miller: Ok Dynamic volume would not be an issue, and if you don't want to go above -5 that is fine, but you can easily go up as high as 0, we don't like to see them in the positive range
(08:54:05) Me: Just to clarify, I said Dynamic EQ not dynamic volume
(08:54:22) Scott Miller: Sorry, that is fine


EDIT: When I mentioned listening at -30 to -40, I'm talking about music. I don't use my setup for movies.

Audio and HT are full of conflicting information, so the example you have given is not surprising. The good news is that most of the conflicting information is not going to cause any harm.

I agree with Scott that, at a low master volume level, an AVR trim setting of -12 might not be enough to even turn-on your subwoofer, without a 12 volt trigger. And, at such a low volume level, allowing your trim level to exceed -5 probably wouldn't have any negative consequences whatsoever. DEQ does boost the subwoofer, and at -30 to -40 MV, it would be adding quite a lot of subwoofer boost, but since you are only using the subwoofer for music, it is unlikely that you would be putting a lot of low-frequency strain on the subwoofer.

It is the combination of master volume level, subwoofer boost (and/or DEQ) and low-frequency content (especially with the LFE track in movies, which is recorded 10db louder than the bass in the regular channels) which puts demand on a subwoofer's headroom. So, subwoofer headroom, and the appropriate use of gain/trim settings, are often moving targets which are dependent on circumstances.

The guideline of keeping the trim level no higher than approximately -5, and using the gain control on the subwoofer to supply most of the bass boost, after an Audyssey or other calibration, is just a guideline. It's a best practice recommendation, which is made without knowing the specific circumstances that an individual may be confronting, or the specific combination of factors which can put demands on his subwoofer.

In your specific case, listening to music at very low volume levels, it would probably be fine to increase your trim level to 0.0, or even a little higher than that, so I don't really see a conflict here. But, I would personally still probably do what you are doing, and use the guideline as a kind of fail-safe, and stay at about -5.

To me, the real value in best practice recommendations is that we don't have to analyze our individual circumstances on a moment-by-moment basis. But, we can certainly deviate from them, if we are sure that we know what we are doing. I think that Scott did know, in this case, as you explained your specific situation to him.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
mthomas47 is offline  
post #1568 of 1619 Old 09-28-2019, 04:48 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 280
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 212 Post(s)
Liked: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Audio and HT are full of conflicting information, so the example you have given is not surprising. The good news is that most of the conflicting information is not going to cause any harm.

I agree with Scott that, at a low master volume level, an AVR trim setting of -12 might not be enough to even turn-on your subwoofer, without a 12 volt trigger. And, at such a low volume level, allowing your trim level to exceed -5 probably wouldn't have any negative consequences whatsoever. DEQ does boost the subwoofer, and at -30 to -40 MV, it would be adding quite a lot of subwoofer boost, but since you are only using the subwoofer for music, it is unlikely that you would be putting a lot of low-frequency strain on the subwoofer.

It is the combination of master volume level, subwoofer boost (and/or DEQ) and low-frequency content (especially with the LFE track in movies, which is recorded 10db louder than the bass in the regular channels) which puts demand on a subwoofer's headroom. So, subwoofer headroom, and the appropriate use of gain/trim settings, are often moving targets which are dependent on circumstances.

The guideline of keeping the trim level no higher than approximately -5, and using the gain control on the subwoofer to supply most of the bass boost, after an Audyssey or other calibration, is just a guideline. It's a best practice recommendation, which is made without knowing the specific circumstances that an individual may be confronting, or the specific combination of factors which can put demands on his subwoofer.

In your specific case, listening to music at very low volume levels, it would probably be fine to increase your trim level to 0.0, or even a little higher than that, so I don't really see a conflict here. But, I would personally still probably do what you are doing, and use the guideline as a kind of fail-safe, and stay at about -5.

To me, the real value in best practice recommendations is that we don't have to analyze our individual circumstances on a moment-by-moment basis. But, we can certainly deviate from them, if we are sure that we know what we are doing. I think that Scott did know, in this case, as you explained your specific situation to him.

Regards,
Mike
-15 MV is pretty much as high as I go during the day, and at night it's much lower. So I guess for my usage I can go as high as 0 on the trim. I'll set it to -5 though as even then I don't need to exceed 2 o'clock on the gain knob due to using DEQ.

Thank you, Mike. You're always helpful!

On a separate note, I wish you could modify the EQ the Audyssey does. It sent my fronts to "Large" but that's fine as I easily changed that to "Small" + 80Hz crossover. However, I was playing about with the AVR settings the other day and came across Graphic EQ. When I used the "Copy Curve" feature to "copy" the Audyssey Flat EQ, this is what Audyssey it showed on the EQ:

63Hz: -7.5dB
125Hz: +1.5dB
250Hz: +2.5dB
500Hz: -2.5dB
1kHz: +1.5db
2kHz (this is the crossover frequency from the woofers to the tweeters, btw): +3.5dB
4kHz: +2.5dB
8kHz: +3.5dB
16kHz: +6dB

Not a big fan of the -7.5dB at 63Hz, nor are the treble boosts necessary. Wish I could change them. I know Audyssey XT32 is more sophisticated than a 9-band EQ but still, "Copy Curve" shows decent representation of what Auddysey has done, right? Unfortunately I'm sort of forced to use Audyssey as I like DEQ, I wish you could use DEQ without using a Audyssey curve.

You might be wondering what my question is. I don't have one. Just wanted to throw this out there, haha.

Last edited by Ferrari_1996; 09-28-2019 at 04:54 PM.
Ferrari_1996 is offline  
post #1569 of 1619 Old 09-28-2019, 05:36 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
pbz06's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,713
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1136 Post(s)
Liked: 927
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari_1996 View Post
-15 MV is pretty much as high as I go during the day, and at night it's much lower. So I guess for my usage I can go as high as 0 on the trim. I'll set it to -5 though as even then I don't need to exceed 2 o'clock on the gain knob due to using DEQ.

Thank you, Mike. You're always helpful!

On a separate note, I wish you could modify the EQ the Audyssey does. It sent my fronts to "Large" but that's fine as I easily changed that to "Small" + 80Hz crossover. However, I was playing about with the AVR settings the other day and came across Graphic EQ. When I used the "Copy Curve" feature to "copy" the Audyssey Flat EQ, this is what Audyssey it showed on the EQ:

63Hz: -7.5dB
125Hz: +1.5dB
250Hz: +2.5dB
500Hz: -2.5dB
1kHz: +1.5db
2kHz (this is the crossover frequency from the woofers to the tweeters, btw): +3.5dB
4kHz: +2.5dB
8kHz: +3.5dB
16kHz: +6dB

Not a big fan of the -7.5dB at 63Hz, nor are the treble boosts necessary. Wish I could change them. I know Audyssey XT32 is more sophisticated than a 9-band EQ but still, "Copy Curve" shows decent representation of what Auddysey has done, right? Unfortunately I'm sort of forced to use Audyssey as I like DEQ, I wish you could use DEQ without using a Audyssey curve.

You might be wondering what my question is. I don't have one. Just wanted to throw this out there, haha.
Why is that unfortunate and why would you want to use manual vs XT32? The + and - numbers are to flatten the curve, so not sure what the issue is that you are concerned about.
pbz06 is online now  
post #1570 of 1619 Old 09-28-2019, 05:47 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 280
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 212 Post(s)
Liked: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
Why is that unfortunate and why would you want to use manual vs XT32? The + and - numbers are to flatten the curve, so not sure what the issue is that you are concerned about.
I like a good bass response and isn't 63Hz like the chest punch frequency? I'm fine with the bass that I'm getting but if I could remove the cut at 63Hz to compare the sound, that would be nice. Also, the tweeters on my Monitor Audio RX2's are lively enough without any treble boost so I'd rather remove the boosts as boosting frequencies is never ideal due to increased chance of distortion or whatever.

There is no drawback if Audyssey allowed you to adjust their curves to your preference. A flat response gives a good baseline but at the end of the day, what matters is how it sounds to you, not how pretty the graph looks. Not to mention most people probably don't enjoy a completely flat response. And the users who want a flat response can leave the curve untouched. Giving the user options is not a bad thing. Perhaps a slight overlook on their part.

Last edited by Ferrari_1996; 09-28-2019 at 05:54 PM.
Ferrari_1996 is offline  
post #1571 of 1619 Old 09-28-2019, 08:47 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
darthray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cold lake Alberta Canada
Posts: 6,722
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2298 Post(s)
Liked: 3361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari_1996 View Post
I like a good bass response and isn't 63Hz like the chest punch frequency? I'm fine with the bass that I'm getting but if I could remove the cut at 63Hz to compare the sound, that would be nice. Also, the tweeters on my Monitor Audio RX2's are lively enough without any treble boost so I'd rather remove the boosts as boosting frequencies is never ideal due to increased chance of distortion or whatever.

There is no drawback if Audyssey allowed you to adjust their curves to your preference. A flat response gives a good baseline but at the end of the day, what matters is how it sounds to you, not how pretty the graph looks. Not to mention most people probably don't enjoy a completely flat response. And the users who want a flat response can leave the curve untouched. Giving the user options is not a bad thing. Perhaps a slight overlook on their part.
Yes it is

If your sub response is lower at that frequency. It mean your sub/or MLP is in an null, where the frequency got lower due to your room location (Sub and/or MLP). Unfortunately, when it come to a null where bass frequencies cancel each other. So must boosting at the frequency will get virtual no help from that boost, only adding strain to your Amp Plate.

That said, sometime. Only moving a sub a few inches or a foot can remedy this problem


Darth

Last edited by darthray; 09-28-2019 at 09:04 PM.
darthray is offline  
post #1572 of 1619 Old 09-29-2019, 09:25 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 280
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 212 Post(s)
Liked: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Yes it is

If your sub response is lower at that frequency. It mean your sub/or MLP is in an null, where the frequency got lower due to your room location (Sub and/or MLP). Unfortunately, when it come to a null where bass frequencies cancel each other. So must boosting at the frequency will get virtual no help from that boost, only adding strain to your Amp Plate.

That said, sometime. Only moving a sub a few inches or a foot can remedy this problem


Darth
If Auddysey is doing an EQ of -7.5dB at 63Hz, it actually means that it's detecting a peak at 63Hz rather than a null. But, I may not mind a peak as it's the chest punch frequency, and therefore it would be nice if I had the option of removing the EQ of -7.5dB at 63Hz that Audyssey has done.
darthray likes this.
Ferrari_1996 is offline  
post #1573 of 1619 Old 09-29-2019, 08:09 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
darthray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cold lake Alberta Canada
Posts: 6,722
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2298 Post(s)
Liked: 3361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari_1996 View Post
If Auddysey is doing an EQ of -7.5dB at 63Hz, it actually means that it's detecting a peak at 63Hz rather than a null. But, I may not mind a peak as it's the chest punch frequency, and therefore it would be nice if I had the option of removing the EQ of -7.5dB at 63Hz that Audyssey has done.
Agree

Look like I misunderstood the OP post. So my Bad

I do intend to try experimenting with a little boost myself at 63Hz, for my new subs. Once I get them, after trying Cascading Crossovers that I like a lot. Since those new subs, have the feature of a PEQ +3 dB boost at 63Hz.


Darth

Last edited by darthray; 09-29-2019 at 08:24 PM.
darthray is offline  
post #1574 of 1619 Old 09-29-2019, 08:27 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
darthray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cold lake Alberta Canada
Posts: 6,722
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2298 Post(s)
Liked: 3361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari_1996 View Post
I like a good bass response and isn't 63Hz like the chest punch frequency? I'm fine with the bass that I'm getting but if I could remove the cut at 63Hz to compare the sound, that would be nice. Also, the tweeters on my Monitor Audio RX2's are lively enough without any treble boost so I'd rather remove the boosts as boosting frequencies is never ideal due to increased chance of distortion or whatever.

There is no drawback if Audyssey allowed you to adjust their curves to your preference. A flat response gives a good baseline but at the end of the day, what matters is how it sounds to you, not how pretty the graph looks. Not to mention most people probably don't enjoy a completely flat response. And the users who want a flat response can leave the curve untouched. Giving the user options is not a bad thing. Perhaps a slight overlook on their part.

+1 for this one


Darth
darthray is offline  
post #1575 of 1619 Old 09-30-2019, 02:08 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 11,962
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6539 Post(s)
Liked: 5886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari_1996 View Post
There is no drawback if Audyssey allowed you to adjust their curves to your preference.
There's an app for that.

MultEQ Editor: New App for Denon & Marantz AV Receivers & Pre/Pros
darthray likes this.
Alan P is offline  
post #1576 of 1619 Old 10-08-2019, 09:35 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MidnightWatcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 5,535
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 190 Post(s)
Liked: 193
Hi all, I've still much reading and learning to do in the world of subwoofers and setup. Right now I have an SVS PC2000 and am about to receive a Monolith 15 that I ordered for a price I couldn't refuse (not the best pairing, I know, but could be worse).

Anyway, my current AVR has two LFE outs, but they're not independent. Basically one LFE out with two connections.

Questions:

1. Would I benefit most from upgrading to an AVR that has two independent LFE outs (eg. Denon 4500), or should I just get a miniDSP 2x4 HD for the subs?

2. Until I upgrade to a miniDSP and/or a better AVR, should I level match as best I can and then recalibrate with AccuEQ using just the Monolith 15 connected, or have both connected and recalibrate?

3. My room is about 1800 cubic feet, two rows with five seats. Is it overkill to keep the SVS with the Monolith?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My Theater | Vero 4K | Epson 5030UB + Peerless PRG-UNV | 100" EluneVision Reference 4K Screen | Denon X3600H @ 5.2.4 | 4 x ADX Maximus w/ Dayton Audio SA230 | Polk Audio RTi A9 + CSi A6 + OWM3 + Micca M8C + SVS PC2000 + Monolith 15 | 40" HDTV w/ Z83V Mini PC + MoviePosterApp | Z83V + DietPi FTP Server + 3 x 8TB HDDs + 4 x DLink DHP-701AV
MidnightWatcher is online now  
post #1577 of 1619 Old 10-09-2019, 06:20 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
humbland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,530
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1070 Post(s)
Liked: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightWatcher View Post
Hi all, I've still much reading and learning to do in the world of subwoofers and setup. Right now I have an SVS PC2000 and am about to receive a Monolith 15 that I ordered for a price I couldn't refuse (not the best pairing, I know, but could be worse).

Anyway, my current AVR has two LFE outs, but they're not independent. Basically one LFE out with two connections.

Questions:

1. Would I benefit most from upgrading to an AVR that has two independent LFE outs (eg. Denon 4500), or should I just get a miniDSP 2x4 HD for the subs?

2. Until I upgrade to a miniDSP and/or a better AVR, should I level match as best I can and then recalibrate with AccuEQ using just the Monolith 15 connected, or have both connected and recalibrate?

3. My room is about 1800 cubic feet, two rows with five seats. Is it overkill to keep the SVS with the Monolith?
"Overkill"???
That's a foreign concept here at AVS
Overkill is where the party starts...
BTW, what kind of a deal did you get on the "Monolith 15 for a price I couldn't refuse"?
darthray and drh3b like this.
humbland is offline  
post #1578 of 1619 Old 10-09-2019, 06:24 PM - Thread Starter
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,334
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5540 Post(s)
Liked: 10681
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightWatcher View Post
Hi all, I've still much reading and learning to do in the world of subwoofers and setup. Right now I have an SVS PC2000 and am about to receive a Monolith 15 that I ordered for a price I couldn't refuse (not the best pairing, I know, but could be worse).

Anyway, my current AVR has two LFE outs, but they're not independent. Basically one LFE out with two connections.

Questions:

1. Would I benefit most from upgrading to an AVR that has two independent LFE outs (eg. Denon 4500), or should I just get a miniDSP 2x4 HD for the subs?

2. Until I upgrade to a miniDSP and/or a better AVR, should I level match as best I can and then recalibrate with AccuEQ using just the Monolith 15 connected, or have both connected and recalibrate?

3. My room is about 1800 cubic feet, two rows with five seats. Is it overkill to keep the SVS with the Monolith?

Hi,

I will answer your questions in reverse order. First, all kidding aside, I don't think it is overkill to have both subs in your system. But, they might cancel each other, from about 20Hz down, or even starting a little higher in frequency than that. They have different tuning points, different amounts of DSP applied to them, and different inherent frequency responses.

Until you have better EQ capabilities, I would start with just the Monolith, uncalibrated, and then add in the PC2000 once you have a good listening or measurement baseline established. (I would probably not use the extended mode on the Monolith, if I wanted to experiment with pairing it with the PC2000.)

Did the bass get better, worse, or no change? Depending on the answer to that question, you can then explore your calibration options with AccuEQ. Just the Monolith, or both connected? You really won't know the answer to those questions until you experiment.

Long-term, I think that a miniDSP will work much better, especially for two completely different ported subs, than any form of automated room EQ including Audyssey XT-32. But, to use the miniDSP effectively, you also have to have a laptop, a calibrated UMIK-1, and REW. (REW is a free download, but there is a learning curve.)

As a general rule, integrating two identical ported subs, in a room, is a much easier task, although it is not always dead simple even so. Placement is still important, and adjusting the phase control on one sub may be necessary. But, if you really want to try to integrate two dissimilar subs, then REW and a miniDSP would definitely give you the best chance to do it effectively. I hope this helps!

Regards,
Mike


PS: In case you are thinking of this question, as you read what I wrote, I would definitely also consider selling the PC2000 and buying another Monolith 15. That would especially be the case if you don't have a laptop, or don't want to invest time and effort in REW. In that case, you might be able to get by with just the Denon you mentioned, although REW and a miniDSP would still have advantages. (Or even just REW would help, for that matter.)

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
mthomas47 is offline  
post #1579 of 1619 Old 10-09-2019, 10:55 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MidnightWatcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 5,535
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 190 Post(s)
Liked: 193
Hi @mthomas47 , thank you for your input, very appreciated! Upon receiving the Monolith 15 beast and getting it down stairs (this was not easy to say the least), I turned off the SVS PC2000 and connected the Monolith (no changes were made to subwoofer settings on the AVR). Strangely, the volume seems to be very low on the Monolith 15 in comparison to the SVS PC2000, could barely hear anything. The AVR has the subwoofer level set to -3.0 db and with the volume on the PC2000 set to 2/3 it shakes the room, but the Monolith 15 has relatively low output in comparison (Phase set to 0 same as the PC2000, gain set to 0 db, EQ in extended mode with two ports open). I ran AccuEQ and it set the subwoofer level to +8.0 which seems awfully high. I tried using a Y-splitter to use both RCA inputs on the Monolith, re-ran AccuEQ again and this time it set the subwoofer to +3, which is better but still rather high I thnk.

Could the Monolith be less sensitive to LFE signals than the PC2000? Is there something I'm missing? Or could there be a possible problem with the Monolith 15 amp?
mthomas47 likes this.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My Theater | Vero 4K | Epson 5030UB + Peerless PRG-UNV | 100" EluneVision Reference 4K Screen | Denon X3600H @ 5.2.4 | 4 x ADX Maximus w/ Dayton Audio SA230 | Polk Audio RTi A9 + CSi A6 + OWM3 + Micca M8C + SVS PC2000 + Monolith 15 | 40" HDTV w/ Z83V Mini PC + MoviePosterApp | Z83V + DietPi FTP Server + 3 x 8TB HDDs + 4 x DLink DHP-701AV
MidnightWatcher is online now  
post #1580 of 1619 Old 10-10-2019, 04:44 AM - Thread Starter
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,334
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5540 Post(s)
Liked: 10681
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightWatcher View Post
Hi @mthomas47 , thank you for your input, very appreciated! Upon receiving the Monolith 15 beast and getting it down stairs (this was not easy to say the least), I turned off the SVS PC2000 and connected the Monolith (no changes were made to subwoofer settings on the AVR). Strangely, the volume seems to be very low on the Monolith 15 in comparison to the SVS PC2000, could barely hear anything. The AVR has the subwoofer level set to -3.0 db and with the volume on the PC2000 set to 2/3 it shakes the room, but the Monolith 15 has relatively low output in comparison (Phase set to 0 same as the PC2000, gain set to 0 db, EQ in extended mode with two ports open). I ran AccuEQ and it set the subwoofer level to +8.0 which seems awfully high. I tried using a Y-splitter to use both RCA inputs on the Monolith, re-ran AccuEQ again and this time it set the subwoofer to +3, which is better but still rather high I thnk.

Could the Monolith be less sensitive to LFE signals than the PC2000? Is there something I'm missing? Or could there be a possible problem with the Monolith 15 amp?

Hi,

You are very welcome!

Where the gain knob on the Monolith is in relation to the gain setting on your older PC2000 has no relevance at all to the output capabilities of the two subs. The gain control on a subwoofer is not exactly a volume control. It is a potentiometer which regulates the amount of voltage going to the subwoofer's amplifier. The higher the setting, the more voltage is allowed to go the amp.

A lower gain setting may not allow much voltage to go the amp, and the gain setting which sends sufficient voltage to the amp varies between subwoofer models. That is sometimes the case even with different sub models from within the same company. It is almost always the case with subwoofers from different companies.

Either with or without AccuEQ enabled, you just need to increase the gain control on your sub. You won't need the Y-connector for the single Monolith 15, assuming that it is, in fact, functioning correctly. If you want to try the Mono 15 without rerunning AccuEQ, just turn AccuEQ off in order to test the native capabilities of the sub, and turn-up the gain to see what it can do. If you want to recalibrate with the Mono 15, turn-up the gain control high enough during the calibration process to give you a good negative trim number in your Onkyo AVR.

As noted in the actual Guide, a good target is to keep your subwoofer AVR trim level at about -5 or less, post-calibration. But, you can use a combination of trim increase and gain increase to get to the final subwoofer volume you want. I would shoot for an initial trim setting of about -10 or -11 (if your AVR trim goes down to -12) and then just make whatever adjustments you like post-calibration. You won't hurt your sub by turning up the gain. Only if the Mono 15 doesn't get louder as you turn-up the gain, would I suspect that there is anything wrong with the sub, based on what you have said so far.

If you are only testing the Mono, it might be interesting to test both the normal mode and the extended mode. You can look at graphs on the Mono website to see the difference in low-frequency extension between the two tuning modes. This is another experiment where you can't predict in advance which setting you will prefer.

At some point, you may want to read the Guide which starts in Post 1 of this thread. Even reading the Cliff Notes, at the very beginning of the Guide, might be helpful.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 10-10-2019 at 05:18 AM.
mthomas47 is offline  
post #1581 of 1619 Old 10-10-2019, 08:27 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 280
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 212 Post(s)
Liked: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Bought the app today.

With regards to the response of my fronts, there is a huge dip at ~150Hz, which Audyssey has made less severe but the response is still below -20dB and -15dB for the front-left and front-right, respectively :/

It seems to do a great job with the subwoofer, giving it a flat response to ~150Hz (although that's not important as I have the crossover set to 80Hz).

I have attached screenshots of the before-and-after graphs for my front-left, front-right and subwoofer. These "AFTER" curves are before I decided to limit the EQ to 3kHz (well, 2999Hz as it's pretty difficult to move the line to an exact four-figure value).

Edit: Attached a picture of my setup.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Front-Left.jpg
Views:	36
Size:	488.6 KB
ID:	2626174   Click image for larger version

Name:	Front-Right.jpg
Views:	34
Size:	506.9 KB
ID:	2626176   Click image for larger version

Name:	Subwoofer.jpg
Views:	34
Size:	375.6 KB
ID:	2626178   Click image for larger version

Name:	Ceiling Shape.jpg
Views:	30
Size:	626.3 KB
ID:	2626240  

Last edited by Ferrari_1996; 10-10-2019 at 10:22 AM.
Ferrari_1996 is offline  
post #1582 of 1619 Old 10-10-2019, 10:10 AM
DS3
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Only if the Mono 15 doesn't get louder as you turn-up the gain, would I suspect that there is anything wrong with the sub

It's interesting you say this because I was having a similar experience when trying to calibrate my HSU VTF3.5 with AccuEq on my Onkyo TX-NR686.


I initially set the sub at 9 o’clock (among HSU's other recommended settings) and my 686 set it to +2db, so after several incremental runs, I ended up at 12 o’clock sub gain with the 686 sub trim only dropping to +1db. I called HSU (they’re great, btw) and they felt that this was way too high for my 2600 ft^3 room (and I agreed) and had me do a manual calibration using an SPL app on my phone.


In the interim, I purchased a y-adapter to address the sub not coming on at lower volumes. After its installation, I set the sub gain back to 9 o'clock, AVR trim to 0dB and increasing master volume until I got 78-80dB for a 50Hz test tone at MLP, which occurred at -25dB master volume. I then backed AVR trim to -5dB and bumped the sub gain (now just under the next tick up from 9 o'clock...call it 10:30) to get the MLP SPL back to 78-80dB.

It’s almost as if the 686 is not sending enough bass to the sub, or that the 686 is not reading/setting it correctly because, according to HSU, the amount of gain I had originally dialed in should have resulted in a much larger compensation in my AVR. I am at a loss to explain this and I give up on AccuEQ as it obviously cannot calibrate subs.
darthray and mthomas47 like this.
DS3 is offline  
post #1583 of 1619 Old 10-10-2019, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,334
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5540 Post(s)
Liked: 10681
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS3 View Post
It's interesting you say this because I was having a similar experience when trying to calibrate my HSU VTF3.5 with AccuEq on my Onkyo TX-NR686.


I initially set the sub at 9 o’clock (among HSU's other recommended settings) and my 686 set it to +2db, so after several incremental runs, I ended up at 12 o’clock sub gain with the 686 sub trim only dropping to +1db. I called HSU (they’re great, btw) and they felt that this was way too high for my 2600 ft^3 room (and I agreed) and had me do a manual calibration using an SPL app on my phone.


In the interim, I purchased a y-adapter to address the sub not coming on at lower volumes. After its installation, I set the sub gain back to 9 o'clock, AVR trim to 0dB and increasing master volume until I got 78-80dB for a 50Hz test tone at MLP, which occurred at -25dB master volume. I then backed AVR trim to -5dB and bumped the sub gain (now just under the next tick up from 9 o'clock...call it 10:30) to get the MLP SPL back to 78-80dB.

It’s almost as if the 686 is not sending enough bass to the sub, or that the 686 is not reading/setting it correctly because, according to HSU, the amount of gain I had originally dialed in should have resulted in a much larger compensation in my AVR. I am at a loss to explain this and I give up on AccuEQ as it obviously cannot calibrate subs.

Hi,

I have heard some mixed reports regarding AccuEQ. Some, like yourself, have had insufficient bass and high trim levels after a calibration. Some reports I read on another thread, a few months ago, were noting that AccuEQ was boosting the bass a lot during a calibration. (Perhaps there has been a software update since then.) I'll admit I'm a little confused now as to what AccuEQ is actually doing during the initial calibration/level-matching process.

One pretty consistent report is that AccuEQ doesn't do much of anything with respect to the low-frequency response. Some before-and-after REW graphs I have seen don't show any differences in the graphed response at all. So, it doesn't seem to be setting any low-frequency filters.

With respect to the OP, to whom I was responding, I think that the main takeaway is to ignore the gain setting that was required with the PC2000, and to just concentrate on determining whether he can achieve sufficient bass by increasing his gain control. In his case, the Y-connector (which should increase the voltage coming from the internal amp in the AVR Sub Out by 6db) didn't really help.

But, if his Onkyo worked with the PC2000, then it should also work with his Monolith 15, provided that the new sub is operating properly, and provided that the gain is turned up sufficiently. In any event, I'm glad that you have your HSU working well now.

Regards,
Mike
darthray and Adamg (Ret-Navy) like this.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
mthomas47 is offline  
post #1584 of 1619 Old 10-10-2019, 06:47 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
darthray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cold lake Alberta Canada
Posts: 6,722
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2298 Post(s)
Liked: 3361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari_1996 View Post
Bought the app today.

With regards to the response of my fronts, there is a huge dip at ~150Hz, which Audyssey has made less severe but the response is still below -20dB and -15dB for the front-left and front-right, respectively :/

It seems to do a great job with the subwoofer, giving it a flat response to ~150Hz (although that's not important as I have the crossover set to 80Hz).

I have attached screenshots of the before-and-after graphs for my front-left, front-right and subwoofer. These "AFTER" curves are before I decided to limit the EQ to 3kHz (well, 2999Hz as it's pretty difficult to move the line to an exact four-figure value).

Edit: Attached a picture of my setup.
Thanks for the screen shot

And indeed, it is a big null. While having no experience with this app, since I am not a fan of using an app over the AVR program. I suspect your deep null is a placement problem, where some cancellations occur. That said, I do not see much wiggle room for new locations of your main speakers. While it is a Bummer, your dip seem very narrow and might not hear-it during listening.

While graphs are nice to use for trying to pin point a problem. What is really important, is how it sound since most very narrow nulls. For most non critical listener, do not even know what is missing. For those brief moments of this frequency use within a recording.


Darth

Last edited by darthray; 10-10-2019 at 07:02 PM.
darthray is offline  
post #1585 of 1619 Old 10-11-2019, 04:02 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 280
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 212 Post(s)
Liked: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Thanks for the screen shot

And indeed, it is a big null. While having no experience with this app, since I am not a fan of using an app over the AVR program. I suspect your deep null is a placement problem, where some cancellations occur. That said, I do not see much wiggle room for new locations of your main speakers. While it is a Bummer, your dip seem very narrow and might not hear-it during listening.

While graphs are nice to use for trying to pin point a problem. What is really important, is how it sound since most very narrow nulls. For most non critical listener, do not even know what is missing. For those brief moments of this frequency use within a recording.


Darth
Yeah, sometimes graphs can lead to obsession. If things sound fine, it's probably best to leave nulls rather than use EQ to boost the frequency of the null. EQ is best for reducing peaks (if you can hear them). I have decided to tell Audyssey to essentially leave my fronts alone (the app allows you to set the maximum frequency to EQ up to, and I have set that to 20Hz (the lowest setting)). With regards to my subwoofer, I have set the EQ limit to 140Hz. The crossover is 80Hz but a crossover is not a brick wall so the sub will stay play frequencies above 80Hz, just at a quieter level.

I bought a UMIK-1 over a year ago, and I have yet to use it to do a measurement of my room with REW. I feel like I have mild OCD and I'm pedantic. I don't think I'll delve into REW until I've moved to another place.

One interesting thing that I've noticed is that the bass from my sub becomes a little too much for my liking above -15MV, but there's a cool solution to this. DEQ with the Reference Level Offset (RLO) set to 15dB. If I understand correctly, this reduces the bass when you go above -15MV, because that's what DEQ does when you go above reference level and with a RLO setting of 15, we are telling DEQ to treat reference level as -15MV. Also, sometimes I listen at -30 to -40 (or even a little lower), and in these situations a little bass boost is needed to make things sound nicer (IMO), so DEQ with 15dB RLO not only gives brings the bass to tame levels above -15MV, it also brings the increases the bass at lower volumes which I like. It's a win-win.

Last edited by Ferrari_1996; 10-11-2019 at 04:26 AM.
Ferrari_1996 is offline  
post #1586 of 1619 Old 10-11-2019, 07:31 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
darthray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cold lake Alberta Canada
Posts: 6,722
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2298 Post(s)
Liked: 3361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari_1996 View Post
Yeah, sometimes graphs can lead to obsession. If things sound fine, it's probably best to leave nulls rather than use EQ to boost the frequency of the null. EQ is best for reducing peaks (if you can hear them). I have decided to tell Audyssey to essentially leave my fronts alone (the app allows you to set the maximum frequency to EQ up to, and I have set that to 20Hz (the lowest setting)). With regards to my subwoofer, I have set the EQ limit to 140Hz. The crossover is 80Hz but a crossover is not a brick wall so the sub will stay play frequencies above 80Hz, just at a quieter level.

I bought a UMIK-1 over a year ago, and I have yet to use it to do a measurement of my room with REW. I feel like I have mild OCD and I'm pedantic. I don't think I'll delve into REW until I've moved to another place.

One interesting thing that I've noticed is that the bass from my sub becomes a little too much for my liking above -15MV, but there's a cool solution to this. DEQ with the Reference Level Offset (RLO) set to 15dB. If I understand correctly, this reduces the bass when you go above -15MV, because that's what DEQ does when you go above reference level and with a RLO setting of 15, we are telling DEQ to treat reference level as -15MV. Also, sometimes I listen at -30 to -40 (or even a little lower), and in these situations a little bass boost is needed to make things sound nicer (IMO), so DEQ with 15dB RLO not only gives brings the bass to tame levels above -15MV, it also brings the increases the bass at lower volumes which I like. It's a win-win.
I did notice your UMIK-1 mic, in your night stand from the previous picture you have posted. And look like you know what you are doing. And also correct that EQ should be use to reduce peaks, and not for boosting a null/dip since most are locations problem

Since your dip is around 150Hz, and you got your EQ limit (LFE?) set at 140Hz. And your speakers use a 80Hz crossover point.
It is a possibility the culprit is your high LFE level setting, for the signal send to the sub. You may want to try this;
III-C: Cascading Crossovers:
And it only take around 10 minutes to do so. And the same amount of time to reverse this setting. Worst case scenario your are back to step one, but can reverse in a few minutes of your time.


Darth
Adamg (Ret-Navy) likes this.

Last edited by darthray; 10-11-2019 at 07:55 PM.
darthray is offline  
post #1587 of 1619 Old 10-11-2019, 08:48 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MidnightWatcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 5,535
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 190 Post(s)
Liked: 193
@mthomas47 , just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions, I've taken your suggestions and, along with a more careful reading of your guide, have managed to get the sub to a much better volume. I'm going to now try a couple of other locations to see f I can achieve any further improvements. This forum and members like you are an invaluable resource to us all.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My Theater | Vero 4K | Epson 5030UB + Peerless PRG-UNV | 100" EluneVision Reference 4K Screen | Denon X3600H @ 5.2.4 | 4 x ADX Maximus w/ Dayton Audio SA230 | Polk Audio RTi A9 + CSi A6 + OWM3 + Micca M8C + SVS PC2000 + Monolith 15 | 40" HDTV w/ Z83V Mini PC + MoviePosterApp | Z83V + DietPi FTP Server + 3 x 8TB HDDs + 4 x DLink DHP-701AV
MidnightWatcher is online now  
post #1588 of 1619 Old 10-12-2019, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,334
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5540 Post(s)
Liked: 10681
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightWatcher View Post
@mthomas47 , just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions, I've taken your suggestions and, along with a more careful reading of your guide, have managed to get the sub to a much better volume. I'm going to now try a couple of other locations to see f I can achieve any further improvements. This forum and members like you are an invaluable resource to us all.

You are very welcome, and I really appreciate the kind words!

I'm glad that I was able to help. Keep us posted about the subwoofer re-positioning.

Regards,
Mike
Adamg (Ret-Navy) likes this.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
mthomas47 is offline  
post #1589 of 1619 Old 10-12-2019, 08:37 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 280
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 212 Post(s)
Liked: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
I did notice your UMIK-1 mic, in your night stand from the previous picture you have posted. And look like you know what you are doing. And also correct that EQ should be use to reduce peaks, and not for boosting a null/dip since most are locations problem

Since your dip is around 150Hz, and you got your EQ limit (LFE?) set at 140Hz. And your speakers use a 80Hz crossover point.
It is a possibility the culprit is your high LFE level setting, for the signal send to the sub. You may want to try this;
III-C: Cascading Crossovers:
And it only take around 10 minutes to do so. And the same amount of time to reverse this setting. Worst case scenario your are back to step one, but can reverse in a few minutes of your time.


Darth
The EQ limit is just an option on the app to tell Audyssey not to EQ above a certain frequency (the default EQ limit for the subwoofer was 250Hz). The crossover is at 80Hz and the LPF for LFE is set to 120Hz (which doesn't matter as I use my setup for music not movies).

I would try cascading crossovers out of curiosity to see if I can hear a difference, but it will have no effect on the null. That's room related. I'm not trying cascading crossovers though because the crossover knob on my PB-1000 is analog without any way for me to know when I have set it exactly to 80Hz, etc. And I don't want to try cascading crossovers without matching the crossover on the sub exactly as the crossover set on the AVR. I'm pedantic. With the new SVS subs that work connect to the SVS app, I would try cascading crossovers as you can choose an exact crossover frequency.

Last edited by Ferrari_1996; 10-12-2019 at 08:41 AM.
Ferrari_1996 is offline  
post #1590 of 1619 Old 10-12-2019, 05:38 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
darthray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cold lake Alberta Canada
Posts: 6,722
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2298 Post(s)
Liked: 3361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari_1996 View Post
The EQ limit is just an option on the app to tell Audyssey not to EQ above a certain frequency (the default EQ limit for the subwoofer was 250Hz). The crossover is at 80Hz and the LPF for LFE is set to 120Hz (which doesn't matter as I use my setup for music not movies).

I would try cascading crossovers out of curiosity to see if I can hear a difference, but it will have no effect on the null. That's room related. I'm not trying cascading crossovers though because the crossover knob on my PB-1000 is analog without any way for me to know when I have set it exactly to 80Hz, etc. And I don't want to try cascading crossovers without matching the crossover on the sub exactly as the crossover set on the AVR. I'm pedantic. With the new SVS subs that work connect to the SVS app, I would try cascading crossovers as you can choose an exact crossover frequency.
Thanks for explaining, it was the app setting stuff and not the LFE

For having no effect on your null. Cascading Crossover, use a lower LFE. Some use 80Hz, and some prefer 90Hz. The reason I mention trying this, since it might be sub setting related. Since I was thinking movies, and not Music. Worth trying even if LFE is for movies, but who know what it do for 2.1 recording on music.


Darth

Last edited by darthray; 10-13-2019 at 03:25 AM.
darthray is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off