Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences - Page 54 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1591 of 1619 Old 10-13-2019, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Thanks for explaining, it was the app setting stuff and not the LFE

For having no effect on your null. Cascading Crossover, use a lower LFE. Some use 80Hz, and some prefer 90Hz. The reason I mention trying this, since it might be sub setting related. Since I was thinking movies, and not Music. Worth trying even if LFE is for movies, but who know what it do for 2.1 recording on music.


Darth
It's not sub related. When the measurements are done, they are done for each speaker individually. First a frequency sweep is sent to the FL speaker, then the FR speaker and then the sub. So the graphs you see are for each speaker alone. Therefore, the nulls that you see at 150Hz for the FL and FR are without the sub playing. I think you should forget about this as it's a narrow null that is room related and I'm not going to move my speakers. I appreciate you trying to help
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post #1592 of 1619 Old 10-13-2019, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ferrari_1996 View Post
It's not sub related. When the measurements are done, they are done for each speaker individually. First a frequency sweep is sent to the FL speaker, then the FR speaker and then the sub. So the graphs you see are for each speaker alone. Therefore, the nulls that you see at 150Hz for the FL and FR are without the sub playing. I think you should forget about this as it's a narrow null that is room related and I'm not going to move my speakers. I appreciate you trying to help

Darth was definitely just trying to help, but it seems that the longer this conversation goes on, the more confused some things seem to get.

Perhaps for others reading along, it would be helpful to try to clarify a few things, and then to allow this particular discussion to subside. First, I completely agree that a narrow null at 150Hz would be very unlikely to be audible in any way. For one thing, at that frequency, each note in an 8-note octave would be about 12Hz wide. For another, there would always be harmonics of that note, in any case. For a third, our brains are very good at filling-in any missing information, without us even noticing.

Second, the graphs that you are looking at with the Audyssey app do not represent actual sweeps of the frequency response. Audyssey has no mechanism to self-measure its results, after it sets the filters that attempt to smooth peaks and dips in the frequency response. All 8 microphone positions of XT-32 are used to set the filters. There is no way for Audyssey to measure the results afterwards, which is why some HT owners use REW.

The graphs that you are looking at are simply somewhat crude representations of what Audyssey was trying to accomplish with the control points that it set. They are somewhat crude because the actual control points are far more numerous, and may have much more subtle effects, than what can be shown in those graphs. They give us a general idea of what Audyssey was doing, but our ears and/or our independent measurements are the confirmation of how successful automated room EQ is.

(Incidentally, all systems of automated room EQ work the same way with respect to settings filters. There is no self-measurement mechanism; only independent external measurement, post-calibration, with something such as REW.)

Third, there is often some confusion about the .1 LFE channel. That confusion persists, in part, because we use some terms interchangeably. The LFE channel only exists for 5.1 and higher content. The .1, in 5.1, is the low-frequency effects channel. The LFE channel was specifically created by Dolby/THX to provide louder bass special effects in 5.1 movies. More recently, 5.1 music may also have an LFE channel.

When people speak of 2.1 music, however, they are merely speaking of playing stereo (2-channel) music, with a subwoofer in their audio system. And the term 2.1 is confusing (and technically incorrect) when we use it that way. We aren't adding an LFE channel. We are simply bass-managing the two-channel content to send bass, below a crossover, from our front speakers to our subwoofer(s).

Even if we expand the music to multiple channels, using something like Dolby Pro-logic II (PLII), we are still just playing two-channel music which has been extracted and redirected to a center channel and to surround channels. There is still no LFE channel, in any case. We are still just bass-managing our bass from the various speakers to our subwoofer(s).

I really felt that I needed to clarify some of these issues, for people who might be reading along and getting more, rather than less, confused by the recent discussion. I hope that the clarifications help, and that everyone takes them in the spirit intended.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #1593 of 1619 Old 10-13-2019, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Darth was definitely just trying to help, but it seems that the longer this conversation goes on, the more confused some things seem to get.

Perhaps for others reading along, it would be helpful to try to clarify a few things, and then to allow this particular discussion to subside. First, I completely agree that a narrow null at 150Hz would be very unlikely to be audible in any way. For one thing, at that frequency, each note in an 8-note octave would be about 12Hz wide. For another, there would always be harmonics of that note, in any case. For a third, our brains are very good at filling-in any missing information, without us even noticing.

Second, the graphs that you are looking at with the Audyssey app do not represent actual sweeps of the frequency response. Audyssey has no mechanism to self-measure its results, after it sets the filters that attempt to smooth peaks and dips in the frequency response. All 8 microphone positions of XT-32 are used to set the filters. There is no way for Audyssey to measure the results afterwards, which is why some HT owners use REW.

The graphs that you are looking at are simply somewhat crude representations of what Audyssey was trying to accomplish with the control points that it set. They are somewhat crude because the actual control points are far more numerous, and may have much more subtle effects, than what can be shown in those graphs. They give us a general idea of what Audyssey was doing, but our ears and/or our independent measurements are the confirmation of how successful automated room EQ is.

(Incidentally, all systems of automated room EQ work the same way with respect to settings filters. There is no self-measurement mechanism; only independent external measurement, post-calibration, with something such as REW.)

Third, there is often some confusion about the .1 LFE channel. That confusion persists, in part, because we use some terms interchangeably. The LFE channel only exists for 5.1 and higher content. The .1, in 5.1, is the low-frequency effects channel. The LFE channel was specifically created by Dolby/THX to provide louder bass special effects in 5.1 movies. More recently, 5.1 music may also have an LFE channel.

When people speak of 2.1 music, however, they are merely speaking of playing stereo (2-channel) music, with a subwoofer in their audio system. And the term 2.1 is confusing (and technically incorrect) when we use it that way. We aren't adding an LFE channel. We are simply bass-managing the two-channel content to send bass, below a crossover, from our front speakers to our subwoofer(s).

Even if we expand the music to multiple channels, using something like Dolby Pro-logic II (PLII), we are still just playing two-channel music which has been extracted and redirected to a center channel and to surround channels. There is still no LFE channel, in any case. We are still just bass-managing our bass from the various speakers to our subwoofer(s).

I really felt that I needed to clarify some of these issues, for people who might be reading along and getting more, rather than less, confused by the recent discussion. I hope that the clarifications help, and that everyone takes them in the spirit intended.

Regards,
Mike
Nice explanation of the “.1”, you mentioned “More recently, 5.1 music may also have an LFE channel.”, any examples or titles, one could find of these types?
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post #1594 of 1619 Old 10-13-2019, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mactavish View Post
Nice explanation of the “.1”, you mentioned “More recently, 5.1 music may also have an LFE channel.”, any examples or titles, one could find of these types?

Thanks! Just do a Google search, based on the type of music you are looking for. I haven't really gotten into that medium, but there are 5.1 DVD's, Blu-Ray's, CD's, downloads, and streaming music sources available.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #1595 of 1619 Old 10-13-2019, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Mactavish View Post
Nice explanation of the “.1”, you mentioned “More recently, 5.1 music may also have an LFE channel.”, any examples or titles, one could find of these types?
Make sure you have an SACD capable player before buying any, otherwise all you will be able to play is the stereo CD layer. Most DVD-Audio can be played at a lower resolution in a DVD player, make sure it's compatible, not all are. Blu Ray Audio should play fine on any Blu Ray player.
There are also DTS disks that can be played on any semi modern dvd player. Genesis, Jethro Tull and Rush come to mind. Blu Ray Audio can be tricky, as they will have a note on them about the ABILITY to be multichannel, while not clearly noting that particular one is stereo only. Research each Blu Ray Audio carefully before purchasing.
Large database with purchase links:
https://www.hraudio.net
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/index.php
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/112-s...-surround.html
https://store.acousticsounds.com/c/1...tichannel_SACD

One really well regarded multi channel disk is actually a video disk of music videos.
https://www.amazon.com/Queen-Greates...s%2C177&sr=8-1

If you like Metallica, this is very good and much cheaper than purchasing the Metallica DVD-A
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Other music video collections that are in 5.1 and sound good.
Alice in Chains
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Def Leppard.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Most stuff(SACD, DVD-A, Blu Ray Audio) is expensive as it's out of print, but some is less expensive and available at various places like Amazon, ebay and other specialty internet shops like elusive disk and importcd. It's almost all pretty pricey compared to CDs.

This is one of the very few reasonably price multi channel SACDs still in print.
https://www.amazon.com/Dire-Straits-...1008707&sr=8-1
You can do a search on Amazon for SACD, DVD-Audio. Just make sure they are actually multi channel. They will usually say on the label somewhere.

They are still putting out a few multichannel mixes a year, but they are usually part of an expensive Super Deluxe edition.

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We even now have real encoded Dolby Atmos multi channel Music! Things have come a long way. Just Google “Dolby Atmos Music. On Nov 15th Amazon Music App is anticipated to begin direct Streaming of Dolby Atmos music content.
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We even now have real encoded Dolby Atmos multi channel Music! Things have come a long way. Just Google “Dolby Atmos Music. On Nov 15th Amazon Music App is anticipated to begin direct Streaming of Dolby Atmos music content.
I have been too lazy to finish setting up my Atmos, and there are very few rock/pop remixes so far, but more are supposed to be on the way. So far, it's usually part of an expensive Super Deluxe edition.

This is good, but the bass is mixed much stronger than the original stereo mix, takes a little getting used to.
https://www.amazon.com/Kick-30th-Del...1010566&sr=8-2

This has been pretty universally praised:
https://www.amazon.com/Abbey-Anniver...1010649&sr=8-1

I've never heard this, but I think people like it:
https://www.amazon.com/Automatic-Peo...1010699&sr=8-1

Mustn't forget this one, or the bassheads will kill me:
https://www.amazon.com/Hans-Zimmer-L...5CA19QAKFW8TNA
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Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
Make sure you have an SACD capable player before buying any, otherwise all you will be able to play is the stereo CD layer. Most DVD-Audio can be played at a lower resolution in a DVD player, make sure it's compatible, not all are. Blu Ray Audio should play fine on any Blu Ray player.
There are also DTS disks that can be played on any semi modern dvd player. Genesis, Jethro Tull and Rush come to mind. Blu Ray Audio can be tricky, as they will have a note on them about the ABILITY to be multichannel, while not clearly noting that particular one is stereo only. Research each Blu Ray Audio carefully before purchasing.
Large database with purchase links:
https://www.hraudio.net
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/index.php
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/112-s...-surround.html
https://store.acousticsounds.com/c/1...tichannel_SACD

One really well regarded multi channel disk is actually a video disk of music videos.
https://www.amazon.com/Queen-Greates...s%2C177&sr=8-1

If you like Metallica, this is very good and much cheaper than purchasing the Metallica DVD-A
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Other music video collections that are in 5.1 and sound good.
Alice in Chains
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Def Leppard.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Most stuff(SACD, DVD-A, Blu Ray Audio) is expensive as it's out of print, but some is less expensive and available at various places like Amazon, ebay and other specialty internet shops like elusive disk and importcd. It's almost all pretty pricey compared to CDs.

This is one of the very few reasonably price multi channel SACDs still in print.
https://www.amazon.com/Dire-Straits-...1008707&sr=8-1
You can do a search on Amazon for SACD, DVD-Audio. Just make sure they are actually multi channel. They will usually say on the label somewhere.

They are still putting out a few multichannel mixes a year, but they are usually part of an expensive Super Deluxe edition.
I have a few of each of the type of disks you mentioned. Bought them years ago when I got my first 7.1 system.
I was referring more about the inclusion of any that may have an LFE channel as Mike made reference to. Not sure if there is a difference now, or how one could tell. The Denon 3500 shows a subwoofer icon when it’s engaged, but I see that when playing 2.1 music, as well as with Blu-ray movies.

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Originally Posted by Mactavish View Post
I have a few of each of the type of disks you mentioned. Bought them years ago when I got my first 7.1 system.
I was referring more about the inclusion of any that may have an LFE channel as Mike made reference to. Not sure if there is a difference now, or how one could tell. The Denon 3500 shows a subwoofer icon when it’s engaged, but I see that when playing 2.1 music, as well as with Blu-ray movies.
I think most multichannel music has an LFE channel. There are recordings based on old quadraphonic tapes that are 4.0. Many of those will show a .1 even if it's not being used.

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Here is an old thread I stumbled across discussing the LFE channel on multichannel disks.

https://www.avforums.com/threads/lfe-and-sacd.1557702/

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First, Thank You to all who added to this conversation.

That said, I was trying to help @Ferrari_1996, with a very narrow null. And forgot, He listen to Stereo only, with his sub on. Therefore no LFE, before I open this big can of worm


Darth
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
First, Thank You to all who added to this conversation.

That said, I was trying to help @Ferrari_1996, with a very narrow null. And forgot, He listen to Stereo only, with his sub on. Therefore no LFE, before I open this big can of worm

Darth

No harm, no foul, Darth!

And, it may actually have helped, since we ended-up clarifying some things that are worth knowing for their own sake. And that, in-turn, promoted an interesting and helpful conversation about 5.1 music. I like the fact that conversations on this thread can cover a wide range of audio/HT topics.
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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Originally Posted by Mactavish View Post
Here is an old thread I stumbled across discussing the LFE channel on multichannel disks.

https://www.avforums.com/threads/lfe-and-sacd.1557702/
I believe that as long as you leave it in the digital domain, modern processors will automatically adjust the SACD LFE channel correctly.

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No harm, no foul, Darth!

And, it may actually have helped, since we ended-up clarifying some things that are worth knowing for their own sake. And that, in-turn, promoted an interesting and helpful conversation about 5.1 music. I like the fact that conversations on this thread can cover a wide range of audio/HT topics.
Indeed it was a good informative discussion, of multichannel music recording


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I believe that as long as you leave it in the digital domain, modern processors will automatically adjust the SACD LFE channel correctly.
I looked at 2 of my multi-channel disks, keeping the Denon (3500) app open to view active channel “icons”.
Transport: Oppo BD83, set to HDMI output: Bitstream

DVD AUDIO DISK 5.1: “The Crystal Method”
INPUT: PCM 48kHz.
LFE ICON: ON
OUTPUT: MULTI-CHANNEL-IN
SW ICON (subwoofer): ON
In Denon menu:
SOUND PARAMETER: LFE ADJUSTABLE (0 to Minus 10)
LPF for LFE: ADJUSTABLE

SACD (Hybrid Muti-Channel DSD): Telarc “Epics”
INPUT: DSD 2.8 mHz.
LFE ICON: ON
OUTPUT: MULTI-CHANNEL-IN
SW ICON (subwoofer): ON
In Denon menu:
SOUND PARAMETER: LFE ADJUSTABLE (0 to Minus 10)
LPF for LFE: NON ADJUSTABLE

So at least on these samples, LFE channels exist, and the output obviously goes to the subwoofer, on DSD disks, the LPF for LFE is not adjustable, “greyed out” menu item.

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Hello,
I have question about Onkyo AccuEQ if avr set wrong distance after calibration I should correct this?
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Hello,
I have question about Onkyo AccuEQ if avr set wrong distance after calibration I should correct this?
Sub distance? No.

The subwoofer distance setting is actually a delay setting. Delay that is induced by the DSP in subwoofer amps can add to the delay needed. It is usually best to leave the subwoofer distance wherever auto-setup determined is best.


Speaker distance? Maybe.

Depending on speaker placement, the way the speakers interact with the room can cause auto-setup routines to sometimes set incorrect distances. Setting these to the actual, physical distance (from tweeter to MLP) is usually fine if the discrepancy is small. If there is a large discrepancy, further investigation should be done to find out why.
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Hi Mike,

In this thread, the OP from New Zealand is looking into buying a PB16 Ultra;
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...-velodyne.html
I thought of you, to give some valuable information's. Since he live so far away, and more likely can not return the sub.


Darth
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Sub distance? No.

The subwoofer distance setting is actually a delay setting. Delay that is induced by the DSP in subwoofer amps can add to the delay needed. It is usually best to leave the subwoofer distance wherever auto-setup determined is best.


Speaker distance? Maybe.

Depending on speaker placement, the way the speakers interact with the room can cause auto-setup routines to sometimes set incorrect distances. Setting these to the actual, physical distance (from tweeter to MLP) is usually fine if the discrepancy is small. If there is a large discrepancy, further investigation should be done to find out why.
Hi Alan,

While I do agree with your post. So far, I have always been bless. For my Audyssey EQ (previous) and XT32 (present), to set all distance perfectly
That said, my room do have some acoustic treatment. From this, I would believe, if the speakers distances are set wrong. There is some major reflections points, interfering with proper measurements.


Darth
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Hi Mike,

In this thread, the OP from New Zealand is looking into buying a PB16 Ultra;
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...-velodyne.html
I thought of you, to give some valuable information's. Since he live so far away, and more likely can not return the sub.

Darth

Hi Darth,

I read the thread, but I'm not sure how much I can add to the good advice that you and others have already given the OP. As you said, the PB16 will have the most low-bass SPL and TR (I can try to emphasize the TR a little more), but the Triax would also be a terrific choice. Hopefully, the OP will be able to audition both subs.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #1611 of 1619 Old 10-23-2019, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Darth,

I read the thread, but I'm not sure how much I can add to the good advice that you and others have already given the OP. As you said, the PB16 will have the most low-bass SPL and TR (I can try to emphasize the TR a little more), but the Triax would also be a terrific choice. Hopefully, the OP will be able to audition both subs.

Regards,
Mike

Just read your post to the OP, of that thread. And as usual You did


Darth
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post #1612 of 1619 Old 10-27-2019, 11:14 AM
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I've been considering purchasing a miniDSP 2x4 HD to help smooth the response of my dual JTR 118HT subs in my room. One thing that's held me back was my very limited EQ knowledge, so I wasn't sure if this would be a worthwhile purchase for me. Yesterday I watched a very good youtube instructional video on multi-sub setup using REW and miniDSP 2x4 HD to setup 4 subs in a theater. Since this is THE thread for subwoofer calibration, I thought there might be others like me that would need a tutorial like this, so I thought I'd share the link.



REW Multiple Sub placement and setup with Minidsp for the Ultimate Home Theater experience!


From the youtube description: "Covering what's needed, how to take measurements, how to determine if placement of subs will work with each other, how to align the subs for seat to seat consistency, how to apply eq, REW auto EQ feature, house curves and aligning subs to mains."

Jack
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post #1613 of 1619 Old 10-27-2019, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack1949 View Post
I've been considering purchasing a miniDSP 2x4 HD to help smooth the response of my dual JTR 118HT subs in my room. One thing that's held me back was my very limited EQ knowledge, so I wasn't sure if this would be a worthwhile purchase for me. Yesterday I watched a very good youtube instructional video on multi-sub setup using REW and miniDSP 2x4 HD to setup 4 subs in a theater. Since this is THE thread for subwoofer calibration, I thought there might be others like me that would need a tutorial like this, so I thought I'd share the link.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A6gPCczhuU

REW Multiple Sub placement and setup with Minidsp for the Ultimate Home Theater experience!


From the youtube description: "Covering what's needed, how to take measurements, how to determine if placement of subs will work with each other, how to align the subs for seat to seat consistency, how to apply eq, REW auto EQ feature, house curves and aligning subs to mains."

Jack
Hi Jack,

While I seen this tutorial video before, I thank you for posting-it on this thread since it is very informative. I am positive it will help others, that look in this Guide. That also want to try this devise

Is it worth getting for you, if you are handy around a computer and use RCA connections for your sub/s. My answer would be Yes, and can always learn about how EQ work.
Unlike you, the reason I will not use-it. My computer knowledge is limited, and use XLR connections all around. And prefer not using an adapter that would go either XLR to RCA or the other way.

But use 4 XLR to RCA, for my second Power Amp use for ceiling duty since it only accept RCA (Atmos/DTS:X 4 speakers). Since even after sending my AVP processor, I still had a buzzing noise when using RCA connections, and using those adapters did fix that problem. Suspect a bad mother board for the RCA connections and was done as last attempt, before getting my money back to save close to $1000 CDN for my AVP. Last one from that seller, and all other were still selling them at the original price. Even with the new model been out, and thankfully. It did work, and fix that buzzing noise problem


Darth
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Last edited by darthray; 10-28-2019 at 06:58 PM.
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post #1614 of 1619 Old 11-07-2019, 09:49 AM
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awesome post on bass & Settings! thank you for sharing!
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post #1615 of 1619 Old 11-08-2019, 05:03 PM
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Hey folks. So I ran an Audyssey calibration on my Denon X3500H with the sub SPL set to about 80 dB. That gave me a subwoofer trim of -10 dB in the calibrated setup. I then manually adjusted the subwoofer trim up to -5 dB, which is where I knew from past experience that trim would be if I had adjusted the subwoofer volume to get into the green zone before running a cal. I did this because I thought this would be a good way to get a little more bass from the subwoofer. But since doing that I read somewhere that you shouldn't manually adjust speaker trims post-calibration because that'd throw off the Dynamic EQ calculations. Did I do wrong?
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post #1616 of 1619 Old 11-08-2019, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by jhumur View Post
Hey folks. So I ran an Audyssey calibration on my Denon X3500H with the sub SPL set to about 80 dB. That gave me a subwoofer trim of -10 dB in the calibrated setup. I then manually adjusted the subwoofer trim up to -5 dB, which is where I knew from past experience that trim would be if I had adjusted the subwoofer volume to get into the green zone before running a cal. I did this because I thought this would be a good way to get a little more bass from the subwoofer. But since doing that I read somewhere that you shouldn't manually adjust speaker trims post-calibration because that'd throw off the Dynamic EQ calculations. Did I do wrong?
It won't throw it off, it's a post-calibration tweak (preference). Personally, when I use DEQ I just prefer not adding my own manual boost on top of it. I like how it sounds just the way it is. When I turn off DEQ, I do like to add a little more oomph...about 4-5 dB. But nothing is "wrong" to add boost on top of DEQ as well, if you like it.

The biggest difference is DEQ has a curve built into it, boosting different frequencies a different amount as you reduce volume from 0 (reference). Adding boost in the trim settings, it applies it to ALL the low frequencies.
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post #1617 of 1619 Old 11-08-2019, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jhumur View Post
Hey folks. So I ran an Audyssey calibration on my Denon X3500H with the sub SPL set to about 80 dB. That gave me a subwoofer trim of -10 dB in the calibrated setup. I then manually adjusted the subwoofer trim up to -5 dB, which is where I knew from past experience that trim would be if I had adjusted the subwoofer volume to get into the green zone before running a cal. I did this because I thought this would be a good way to get a little more bass from the subwoofer. But since doing that I read somewhere that you shouldn't manually adjust speaker trims post-calibration because that'd throw off the Dynamic EQ calculations. Did I do wrong?

Hi,

Just to reinforce an essential point from the post just above this one, DEQ is tied entirely to your master volume. As you reduce the master volume from Reference (0.0) DEQ attempts to restore some acoustic equilibrium to the sound. It has nothing to do with any of your subwoofer or AVR settings, and can't recognize them. It only adds bass (and a little bit of treble) in accordance with its pre-programmed algorithm.

If you want to understand more about how DEQ works, there is a detailed explanation in Section V-A of the Guide, linked below. FWIW, from a number of years of reading the Audyssey thread, I would say that most people do add some subwoofer boost on top of DEQ. The estimated average is about +3db to +6db in addition to DEQ. But then again, most people probably listen at master volumes of -15 or less, and DEQ is only adding a relatively modest increase in bass compared to the overall reduction in loudness, at those master volume levels.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #1618 of 1619 Old 11-09-2019, 04:28 AM
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Thought I'd suggest an addition to Section V-A 3 of your guide where you mention the Reference curve also introducing a dip between 2 and 3kHz.

Quote:
The third thing that the Reference curve does is not related to high-frequencies. It is related to mid-bass frequencies. Reasoning that most speakers have crossovers from the mid-range driver to the tweeter at about 2500Hz, the Reference curve introduces mid-range compensation (MRC), which is sometimes called the BBC dip. That slight dip of about 3db of SPL between 2000Hz and 3000Hz is designed to help speaker crossovers integrate more successfully.
I think it may be useful to add that, with the app, this mid-range compensation can be disabled. So once you send the app's configuration to your AVR, there will be no dip when using the Reference EQ setting.
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post #1619 of 1619 Old 11-09-2019, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
It won't throw it off, it's a post-calibration tweak (preference). Personally, when I use DEQ I just prefer not adding my own manual boost on top of it. I like how it sounds just the way it is. When I turn off DEQ, I do like to add a little more oomph...about 4-5 dB. But nothing is "wrong" to add boost on top of DEQ as well, if you like it.

The biggest difference is DEQ has a curve built into it, boosting different frequencies a different amount as you reduce volume from 0 (reference). Adding boost in the trim settings, it applies it to ALL the low frequencies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

Just to reinforce an essential point from the post just above this one, DEQ is tied entirely to your master volume. As you reduce the master volume from Reference (0.0) DEQ attempts to restore some acoustic equilibrium to the sound. It has nothing to do with any of your subwoofer or AVR settings, and can't recognize them. It only adds bass (and a little bit of treble) in accordance with its pre-programmed algorithm.

If you want to understand more about how DEQ works, there is a detailed explanation in Section V-A of the Guide, linked below. FWIW, from a number of years of reading the Audyssey thread, I would say that most people do add some subwoofer boost on top of DEQ. The estimated average is about +3db to +6db in addition to DEQ. But then again, most people probably listen at master volumes of -15 or less, and DEQ is only adding a relatively modest increase in bass compared to the overall reduction in loudness, at those master volume levels.

Regards,
Mike
Thank you both! Very much appreciate the explanation and validation. Despite the fact that my listening levels are in the -30 to -15 dB range, I don't really use DEQ for the most part. I find it makes dialog more muddled to my ear...and I have enough trouble comprehending what is being said to me already. I simply wanted a little more bass out of my system overall, but I was worried that the approach I took to getting it might not be the best approach. I knew that if I ran a calibration with the sub's volume/SPL level set in the "green zone", I'd end up with a trim of -5 of -4.5 and that would give me a pretty anemic bass response. I could of course manually up the trim in the receiver's settings but then I'd be running with a trim level close to 0 dB, which supposedly is not a good idea? I thought about simply cranking up the volume knob on the sub until I was satisfied with the bass output, but having spent nearly all my adult in the technical field, I needed an approach that was more "exact" and more excruciating. Hence, this. Haha. I have a feeling I could have saved myself (and the good people of this forum) a good deal of time and annoyance if had just done just that though.
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