Originally Posted by AmiraTech
Well, it took me two weeks, but I managed to read the entire guide and all the thread posts. I can't even begin to express my gratitude to Mike and the numerous others who have contributed their time, knowledge, and experience to this thread. I wish it had existed ten years ago when I started work on my home theater. I'm also kicking myself for not checking the forum for the last few years until I decided to upgrade my single sub just last week.
I have never been quite happy with my home theater's audio performance despite a constant stream of upgrades over the years. Using the guide, I implemented several changes to my configuration and tweaked some speaker positions to arrive at an overall better sounding setup. While I consider the sound I have now to be good, I can't help but ask, can I make it better?
After many hours of experimentation, measuring and calibrating with Audyessy XT32, I can say definitively that the mobile app (in my case, on an iPad) produces superior results to the built-in calibration on my Denon AVR-X4300H. I encourage anyone with a supported receiver to give it a try.
I'm presently running a 7.2.4 Dolby Atmos setup in a rather large, open room/area on the lower level of our home. Speaker placement meets Dobly's guidelines for a 7.1.4 Hybrid Atmos system. My subs are the only speakers I can move without incurring any cost or breaking the Atmos speaker aliment.
As of last week, so well short of the 45-day return window, I am running dual SVS PC-2000 subs in the front corners of the room. In the front right corner, speaker size and placment limits mean my only real options are the PC-2000 or the PC-4000. In the front left corner, I have nearly no constraints. The room requires dual subs; single is not an option.
Attached is the MultiEq Room Correction Result. Calibration has my sub volume knobs near 10 o'clock, and AVR trim levels at -10.5. I have DEQ turned on and implemented cascading crossovers at 80Hz last night.
After pouring over the info on the SVS website, I realize I don't understand what I am looking at enough to grasp the potential benefits of using different subs in my environment. I'm hoping the collective wisdom of this group can provide some guidance.
Onto the questions at hand:
- Knowing that I won't use the onboard DSP, what are the potential benefits, if any, of two PC-4000s instead?
- With only the PC-2000 or PC-4000 as a front right option, what is the general guidance on using a different ported sub in the front left? Without restrictions, I could fit PB-16 Ultra if required.
In general, I'm looking to go lower and with more TR than I am experiencing now. The value does come into play here as I'd rather not increase my costs 3x for subtle gains.
All informed opinions are welcomed! Even those of you taking wild guesses will be thanked.
Originally Posted by AmiraTech
You are indeed correct, the room is the lower floor of a two story home, tile over concrete slab. I did consider some type of seat shakers in the past, but I’m worried about their effect on the life span of our power reclining sofas. Dual 4000s are such a significant price increase, I wonder how much they will really change the output in my room.
As you can see I’m not really pushing the 2000s that hard based on trim levels and volume knob locations. I don’t have any volume issues. SVS website specs don’t convince me the 4000 really goes any deeper. It looks like the 4000s add DSP and more SPL, which I’m not lacking due to the dual setup. I know I could always try and then return them, but still, it’s a lot of work.
Thanks for the input!
First, you are very welcome for the Guide, and I'm glad that it has been so helpful! I am also pleased that you are enjoying using cascading crossovers. I do too! It is possible that you would enjoy your sound quality even more if you turned off DEQ. In that case, you would definitely want to increase the volume of your subwoofers to compensate for the reduction in bass that would occur. But, that would be very easy to do. As you noted, you aren't doing any post-calibration sub boosts.
Adding some independent sub boost, either with or without DEQ, would immediately add more of what you are looking for. You just might also get more audio clarity if you tried adding some subwoofer boost with DEQ off.
With respect to your specific question, upgrading to dual PC4000's will definitely give you more of the deep bass sounds and TR that you are looking for. As you observed, the PC4000's have more SPL across the board than the PC2000's do. But, where low-frequency bass sounds and sensations are concerned, the total SPL is not the most important thing. The most important factor for ported subs, particularly in a larger room where there isn't as much room gain to reinforce low-frequencies, is the subwoofers tuning point.
The PC2000 has a port tune of about 20Hz, and it's volume drops-off fairly fast below 20Hz. The PC4000 has a tuning point of 16Hz, in the Extended mode, and it carries much more SPL (and concomitant TR) into the upper teens and down into the low-teens. For most people, it is the frequencies below 20Hz that produce the most exciting deep bass special effects. The PC4000 not only has a lower port tune, it also has a larger cabinet volume, a more powerful amplifier, and more DSP directed into the <20Hz frequencies than the PC2000 has. Dual PC4000's would definitely be a significant upgrade to your dual PC2000's.
I agree with Darth, that it really wouldn't be worth your while to do one PC4000 and one PB16, equidistant from your listening position. If you could do dual PB16's, that would be another incremental upgrade. But, the upgrade from PC2000's to PC4000's will be a much
more significant upgrade than the upgrade from dual PC4000's to dual PB16's would be. Since you need to stay with the cylinder shape for one of your subs, I would upgrade to dual PC4000's, if I were you. They will be easier to integrate from a FR standpoint, and it's a more cost-effective (and aesthetic) solution.
There is a lot of misunderstanding about TR (tactile response). For instance, skypop mentioned how much more he is enjoying his chest punch since he added his B1200D MBM's. Chest punch is a mid-bass phenomenon caused by sudden percussive sounds in the roughly 50Hz to 100Hz range. The air-filled cavities of our chests literally resonate momentarily, in response to those sudden percussive sounds, and to the pressure wave which accompanies them.
There is some evidence that the average person feels those chest punch sensations most strongly at a frequency of about 63Hz. Mid-bass modules, like his Behringer's, have port tunes of about 55Hz, and that's where they are concentrating their SPL and the pressure waves which accompany them. They can really increase mid-bass tactile sensations on any floor surface. Sounds which produce chest punch include sounds such as bass drum strikes and gunshots.
The deep bass sounds and TR that you are talking about occur at much lower frequencies than chest punch.They relate to deep rumbling and thudding sounds/sensations below about 30Hz, and especially below 20Hz. Concrete, laid on earth, doesn't transmit those deep bass vibrations as well as a suspended wood floor does. Someone wanting more of those low-bass sounds and sensations can really benefit from subs with a lower port tune and more power. With sufficient subwoofage, it is possible to achieve very respectable deep bass TR even in a large room, on concrete. Ask me how I know?
It is important to recognize that deep bass sounds and sensations require lower subwoofer capability and more subwoofer volume. We don't hear those frequencies as well as those closer to our normal hearing range. Subwoofers capable of playing those low-frequencies with sufficient SPL to be meaningful have to be larger (and more expensive) and
they have to have lower tuning points.
In the short-term, I would turn-up the volume of your subs, on top of DEQ, when you want more deep bass SPL and TR. You could easily use your AVR trims to go up to about -5. In the longer-term, and within the 45-day period, I would upgrade to dual PC4000's. And, when you have them, I would experiment with turning DEQ off. You may get more clarity that way, as you did with cascading crossovers.
But remember that, either with or without DEQ, if you want to hear more bass (and especially more deep bass) you will need to use more of the inherent capability of your subwoofers, by increasing their volume. That is true with your PC2000's, and it will still be true with your new PC4000's. Audyssey's automated calibration makes your subwoofers play at the same volume as your other speakers. That is deliberate, for reasons explained in Section II of the Guide. But, we don't hear bass frequencies as well as we do the higher frequencies. If you want more bass, you will still need to turn-up the volume on your subwoofers in order to get it.
Incidentally, I think you may really enjoy some of the features on the PC4000's. As with the Audyssey Editor, we don't always know how valuable some features will be until we actually experiment with them. I hope this long post helps!