Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #151 of 1601 Old 03-24-2018, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
Was it really necessary to quote the entire guide in your post? That's way too much duplicate info, especially for those on mobile devices.
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Thank you very much, Mike! I really appreciate that.

I think that Jim has a good point, though. Maybe you could edit your post to delete everything after the table of contents. That would make it much easier for people trying to read this page of the thread.

Regards,
Mike

+1
On both quotes above, a simple link to the thread, like so;
Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
Would have suffice, and if I want to point out something specific.
I just add the Chapter and paragraph, for where it can be found.


Ray
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post #152 of 1601 Old 03-24-2018, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
The square footage of the house is not a factor, only the room your subwoofer is in matters here. What are those dimensions (HWD)?

I'm not sure what the dimensions are of the room,but as you can tell from the pictures it is a bedroom layout and there is a half wall that kind of gets in the way.

Because of the irregular nature of that room - the photo's indicate a portion of one wall juts out further than the corresponding wall - there's no way to make an accurate determination about where the sub will work best and cover all seating positions. The only way to really know is to try various locations and see how they perform. The fact it's carpeted concrete is likely a deal-breaker though, as that all but ensures you'll need some very serious capabilities before having much in the way of tactile sensation. As much as I'm not a fan of them, you may have to consider transducers if you want to feel the bass. Short of spending considerable amounts of money, they might be the only way to achieve that.

If you mean the bass shakers that go on the chair that is too unnatural to me and I don't want to spend a bunch more money here since I already gave the speakers to my parents and they're not willing to spend any more money on it. I have relocated the sub back to the back wall behind the couch laying it down with the driver facing the wall. I think this might be the best solution and just run the sub pretty hot.
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

Alan and I keep directing you to the Guide, because some of the questions you are asking can only be answered properly once you understand some of the basic concepts involved. And, don't worry if some of it seems confusing at first. Just absorb what you can, when you can. It took years to write the Guide, much less to accumulate a little knowledge about the subject. You can't expect to absorb all of this at a first reading.

An example of a basic concept is the fact that corner placement reinforces the subwoofer's SPL. It is called boundary gain. If you move the sub out into the middle of the room, it will probably sound softer everywhere. The tactile response you are getting with the subwoofer in the corner, and the gain level at 0, is probably about all there is. You can go through the checklist that Alan gave you, and you can try increasing the AVR trim a little. But, your subwoofer can only do so much in a big space on concrete. (Concrete doesn't transmit tactile sensations the way that a suspended wood floor does. Think of a drum head vibrating.)

I understand and I'm actually going fully read the article today. For the room though, I am definitely going to keep it in the corner wall behind the couch. That gives the most tactile feel in the 2 seats and then a little bit in the other seats. I can just run the sub hotter to get the other seats rumbling more.

If there is a better location for your sub, I don't see it, although laying the subwoofer on its side behind two seats, with the base still in the corner, as Alan suggested, might be worth a try. I think that you are attempting to be very democratic in giving everyone an exactly equal audio/tactile experience, but it just isn't in the cards. Both SPL and TR (tactile response) decrease with distance. So, as someone is further from the subwoofer, the bass effects will be somewhat diminished. But, your parents probably won't even notice unless you deliberately point it out.

I didn't see Alan's response to put the sub in the corner laying down. I have done this before in my previous condo with the sub and currently have the sub laying down and it seems like the best it is going to get. With the cylinder style sub, does it matter if I have it out from the corner wall or can I have the driver right up against the wall? I know with a sealed sub for instance you want to have it out from the corner so it is not too boomy. I can literally push the bottom of the sub (where the driver is) into the wall while laying down or have it breathe a little out from the wall. Will it matter which one with the cylinder style sub? I'll post a picture below for you to see how I have it right now.

As I noted on the Audyssey thread, there can be a money seat, but all four seats will never be four truly equal seats with a single subwoofer (or with respect to speakers). Even with dual subwoofers, equality isn't a piece of cake. You just have to do the best you can with what you have to work with. And, I think that you are trying.

Regards,
Mike

So if it was your room and you know that at least 2 people minimum always watch it (me and my fiancé or my parents) and the seats are all 4 in a row with a slight gap in the middle to have a walkway.. Would you just do calibration 1 mic at the seat I typically sit in? Wouldn't this be better than calibrating mic 1 in the walkway middle like I have been doing since then that is the money seat where no one sits at all?
Please see my notes above in bold. Also, RE: the center channel speaker needs moved forward. Are you supposed to have the center channel like hanging off the stand then? It is completely flush with the edge right now. I thought the center was just supposed to sit flush with the edge of the stand so there are no reflections?

Also, please see where I quoted Alan with my exact settings on the sub itself. I'm about to read the write-ups.

Picture is here of the sub and thanks for the help




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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
+1
The first thought that came to my mind.
Since I use to have the problem, even with 2 PB13 Ultra in a 12ft W x 18ft L x 8ft T






Just to add, since your room is in the basement, you got concrete under the carpet.
If you look at the quote above yours, my room is not that big, and even with 2 PB13, playing loud.
I had loss the Tactile feeling from my previous place had using only one PB12Plus/2, on a hard wood floor.


The culprit is the concrete floor.
The way I remedy this problem, was to use a couple Tactile Transducer, a good read on this can be found here;
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...ual-guide.html


But before getting into this.
I also strongly suggest that you look at the Subwoofers Guide, as mthomas47 mention a few post above.
That can be very easily found in the Sticky Threads.


Ray
Thanks for the reply Ray. I am definitely going to read the full write-ups now and I am going to settle for having the sub laying down. I just need to see if the sub driver platform needs to hit the wall or be out from the wall a little bit to breathe for the most powerful bass. Thoughts? The shakers are not going to be an option for this room. I can already feel the shake a lot with the sub behind the couch so that's going to be enough and then my parents are just going to have to have less shake than me, ha.

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post #153 of 1601 Old 03-24-2018, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by iStorm View Post
Please see my notes above in bold. Also, RE: the center channel speaker needs moved forward. Are you supposed to have the center channel like hanging off the stand then? It is completely flush with the edge right now. I thought the center was just supposed to sit flush with the edge of the stand so there are no reflections?

Also, please see where I quoted Alan with my exact settings on the sub itself. I'm about to read the write-ups.


Thanks for the reply Ray. I am definitely going to read the full write-ups now and I am going to settle for having the sub laying down. I just need to see if the sub driver platform needs to hit the wall or be out from the wall a little bit to breathe for the most powerful bass. Thoughts? The shakers are not going to be an option for this room. I can already feel the shake a lot with the sub behind the couch so that's going to be enough and then my parents are just going to have to have less shake than me, ha.
Hi,

I answered your question about mic position 1 in two separate posts on the Audyssey thread. Alan and I have both advised you to use your actual head position (right between your ears) as mic position 1. The base of the subwoofer doesn't need to breathe. If it sounds and feels good where you have it, then just leave it there. That should give you the maximum amount of boundary reinforcement.

I saw your settings and they look fine. It is, in fact, a good idea to move the CC forward so that it overhangs the shelf it is sitting on by about an inch. That keeps sound waves, which emit from the drivers in a cone shape, from reflecting off of the shelf the speaker sits on. Those early reflections can obscure dialogue clarity.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #154 of 1601 Old 03-24-2018, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I answered your question about mic position 1 in two separate posts on the Audyssey thread. Alan and I have both advised you to use your actual head position (right between your ears) as mic position 1. The base of the subwoofer doesn't need to breathe. If it sounds and feels good where you have it, then just leave it there. That should give you the maximum amount of boundary reinforcement.

I saw your settings and they look fine. It is, in fact, a good idea to move the CC forward so that it overhangs the shelf it is sitting on by about an inch. That keeps sound waves, which emit from the drivers in a cone shape, from reflecting off of the shelf the speaker sits on. Those early reflections can obscure dialogue clarity.

Regards,
Mike
Hey Mike- Sorry I keep repeating myself on certain things. I got the threads mixed up a bit because I was posting in both yesterday.

Okay so RE Mic position: The reason I asked this again is because it always is 2 people in the room. I think I mentioned it but I sit in the money seat we talked about to the right of the TV right next to the walkway and then my fiancé will sit opposite of me so right by the walkway but to the left of the TV. Is it still okay to put the mic 1 in my chair between my ears?

If I am gathering this right then this is how the different mic positions would be based off of Mic 1 at my seat.

Mic 2 would be ear height sitting on the console (if you look at the picture the console is right in between the 2 seats. It would be directly to my left.

Mic 3 would be the right of me at ear level on the walkway (floor) next to my "money" seat.

Mic 4 would be on the floor at the front of my seat (on the floor where my feet are).

Mic 5 would be in front of my center console on the floor at ear height.

Mic 6 would be in front of the walkway right by my chair on the floor where my chair ends.

Mic 7 would be behind my couch positioned right in between the console and my seat.

Mic 8 would be behind my couch in between the walkway and my seat at the edge of my seat.

So with this mic positioning none of the mic positions would be geared close to the other couch, correct? Or do I have this all wrong?

Before I had it like this:

Mic 1 at center walkway on floor at ear height
Mic 2 on my chair at ear height
Mic 3 on the chair of the other couch closest to the walkway at ear height
Mic 4 in front of the walkway on the floor
Mic 5 in front of my chair
Mic 6 in front of the chair on the other couch closest to the walkway (my fiance's seat when she sits with me).
Mic 7 In between my chair and the walkway
Mic 8 In between the walkway and the other couch chair

Please let me know. I hope this explains it all well.

The sub sounds about the same if I have it all the way up against the wall versus a little bit out so just leave it hitting up against the wall (driver base hitting it)?

Also, on the center channel: If an inch out from the stand is a good rule of thumb for it won't the speaker like fall over? That's my biggest worry with that suggestion. Also, if I do this since I'm using door stoppers right now to angle up the center channel, I will probably have to find short feet since the center almost hits the top of the stand right now.

Now that I have these questions all out I"m going to read the articles. Thanks

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post #155 of 1601 Old 03-24-2018, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by iStorm View Post
Thanks for this thread!

I am currently trying to find the optimal placement for my sub in the basement as you know. I have found out that I like plugging one port and setting my SVS PC Ultra 13 cylinder sub at 16hz for movies.

I have tried the front stage by the large SVS towers and putting the sub in the corner, but I cannot really feel the sub unless I crank the sub up way too loud. What do you guys think about putting the sub behind the couch here as shown below in my room?

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Originally Posted by iStorm View Post
Will this give me the best bass rumble in my chair for this kind of room? I don't think there is going to be a way to get all 4 seats in the room to feel the rumble unless I got another sub which isn't in the budget.
Thanks for the reply Ray. I am definitely going to read the full write-ups now and I am going to settle for having the sub laying down. I just need to see if the sub driver platform needs to hit the wall or be out from the wall a little bit to breathe for the most powerful bass. Thoughts? The shakers are not going to be an option for this room. I can already feel the shake a lot with the sub behind the couch so that's going to be enough and then my parents are just going to have to have less shake than me, ha.

I am confuse, the first post you did, was not bass to feel the rumbles, and this last one is enough

Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I answered your question about mic position 1 in two separate posts on the Audyssey thread. Alan and I have both advised you to use your actual head position (right between your ears) as mic position 1. The base of the subwoofer doesn't need to breathe. If it sounds and feels good where you have it, then just leave it there. That should give you the maximum amount of boundary reinforcement.

I saw your settings and they look fine. It is, in fact, a good idea to move the CC forward so that it overhangs the shelf it is sitting on by about an inch. That keeps sound waves, which emit from the drivers in a cone shape, from reflecting off of the shelf the speaker sits on. Those early reflections can obscure dialogue clarity.

Regards,
Mike

+1


In short, only position 1, is important, the others are for trying to determine your room, but all Audysey calculations will be for mic position one.
Audyssey FAQ Linked Here


As mike said, your Center, should be sticking out of the shelf, and angle-up if needed (can post instruction on that if you like).
And also, the closer your are to that wall, the more chance that you will have something vibrating from them.


Ray
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post #156 of 1601 Old 03-24-2018, 04:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by iStorm View Post
Hey Mike- Sorry I keep repeating myself on certain things. I got the threads mixed up a bit because I was posting in both yesterday.

Okay so RE Mic position: The reason I asked this again is because it always is 2 people in the room. I think I mentioned it but I sit in the money seat we talked about to the right of the TV right next to the walkway and then my fiancé will sit opposite of me so right by the walkway but to the left of the TV. Is it still okay to put the mic 1 in my chair between my ears?

If I am gathering this right then this is how the different mic positions would be based off of Mic 1 at my seat.

Mic 2 would be ear height sitting on the console (if you look at the picture the console is right in between the 2 seats. It would be directly to my left.

Mic 3 would be the right of me at ear level on the walkway (floor) next to my "money" seat.

Mic 4 would be on the floor at the front of my seat (on the floor where my feet are).

Mic 5 would be in front of my center console on the floor at ear height.

Mic 6 would be in front of the walkway right by my chair on the floor where my chair ends.

Mic 7 would be behind my couch positioned right in between the console and my seat.

Mic 8 would be behind my couch in between the walkway and my seat at the edge of my seat.

So with this mic positioning none of the mic positions would be geared close to the other couch, correct? Or do I have this all wrong?

Before I had it like this:

Mic 1 at center walkway on floor at ear height
Mic 2 on my chair at ear height
Mic 3 on the chair of the other couch closest to the walkway at ear height
Mic 4 in front of the walkway on the floor
Mic 5 in front of my chair
Mic 6 in front of the chair on the other couch closest to the walkway (my fiance's seat when she sits with me).
Mic 7 In between my chair and the walkway
Mic 8 In between the walkway and the other couch chair

Please let me know. I hope this explains it all well.

The sub sounds about the same if I have it all the way up against the wall versus a little bit out so just leave it hitting up against the wall (driver base hitting it)?

Also, on the center channel: If an inch out from the stand is a good rule of thumb for it won't the speaker like fall over? That's my biggest worry with that suggestion. Also, if I do this since I'm using door stoppers right now to angle up the center channel, I will probably have to find short feet since the center almost hits the top of the stand right now.

Now that I have these questions all out I"m going to read the articles. Thanks
You are posting the same questions on two different threads. You do realize that several people are taking time out of their own activities to try to help you? All of your recent questions are answered in the first section of the Guide. Seriously! That's why I wrote it. I am linking that first section for you again right here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...erences.html#B

You can go right to the speaker part--front soundstage only, since they control the majority of what you hear, and then read about the calibration technique.
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #157 of 1601 Old 03-24-2018, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
I am confuse, the first post you did, was not bass to feel the rumbles, and this last one is enough




+1


In short, only position 1, is important, the others are for trying to determine your room, but all Audysey calculations will be for mic position one.
Audyssey FAQ Linked Here


As mike said, your Center, should be sticking out of the shelf, and angle-up if needed (can post instruction on that if you like).
And also, the closer your are to that wall, the more chance that you will have something vibrating from them.


Ray
I had the sub near field behind the couch before and could feel it in 2 of the chairs but not much in the other 4 chairs. I was trying to find a solution to fill all 4 chairs, but I guess lying it down and experimenting with it in the same spot with the driver facing the wall versus the ports facing the wall is going to be my best bet. From there I am just going to have to run the sub hotter to achieve more tactile feel in the other 2 chairs. The only problem then is that it is probably going to produce too much tactile feel in my chair and my fiance's chair when she sits right next to me (the sub sits behind those 2 chairs).

I will definitely move the center up about an inch from where it sits flush with the stand. My fear again is that with it hanging off a bit it is going to come crashing down one day or something.

I currently have the center channel angled up with 2 door stoppers from Lowes/Home Depot (can't remember which one). The only problem is when I go to move it more forward I doubt I'm going to be able to use these same door stoppers given how big they are and I don't have a ton of clearance with the center channel on that second shelf currently. Can you think of anything that I can prop the center up on that will be stable but will be small in diameter? What do people usually use other than door stoppers? I would just place it up on the top shelf like in my room upstairs but it would get in the way of the TV mounted on the wall and I don't want to mount the TV up any higher than it already is.

I am going to move the surrounds up a bit to make them 2-3 feet higher than sitting ear level on the couch. That should solve the issue with the surrounds being too close to the head. Now I just need to experiment with dipole and bipole because no one knows which one to use but Aydssey recommends having them in dipole mode for movies especially as side surrounds.

Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
You are posting the same questions on two different threads. You do realize that several people are taking time out of their own activities to try to help you? All of your recent questions are answered in the first section of the Guide. Seriously! That's why I wrote it. I am linking that first section for you again right here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...erences.html#B

You can go right to the speaker part--front soundstage only, since they control the majority of what you hear, and then read about the calibration technique.
Hey, I do realize that several people are taking time out of their day to help me. Isn't that what a forum is for? I can't cross reference two of similar threads to get different opinions since you just direct me to the guide every time? BTW I just spent over 5+ hours of my day reading the thread and it was informative, but doesn't solve any of the issues I have listed.

For instance, you responded to this saying to read the thread, well guess what it doesn't say anything about Mic positions 2,3,4,5,6,7,8 that I gave you a detailed list above that you couldn't respond to if I was on the right track. In your thread all it says is Mic position 1 is the MLP... that is it. I feel like the whole write up I read the same thing about 100 times over. So I'm not sure what the goal of me reading this thread was? It is all YMMV on pretty much everything.. I realize there is nothing clear cut and dry with this stuff, but that's why I am on a forum where I can ask people with real experiences and are more versed about this kind of stuff.. Most of the stuff I read was foreign, my fiance fell asleep and a whole day was spent on reading something that I thought would accomplish something.

Now I am pretty much back to where I was before.. I ordered the boom mic stand from Amazon, it says to use blankets over the leather chairs but then in the Auyddsey thread it specifically says not to introduce or take away any new items in the room such as tables, paintings, etc. So wouldn't that fall into the same category putting blankets over the chairs?

I feel like there should be a cliff note version that is more user friendly for someone who doesn't have half of a weekend day to read and who is not versed in this stuff.

Idk I'm just tired now and spent most of my day reading this one article that clearly didn't solve but maybe a couple of my issues.

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post #158 of 1601 Old 03-25-2018, 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by iStorm View Post
Now I am pretty much back to where I was before.. I ordered the boom mic stand from Amazon, it says to use blankets over the leather chairs but then in the Auyddsey thread it specifically says not to introduce or take away any new items in the room such as tables, paintings, etc. So wouldn't that fall into the same category putting blankets over the chairs?

I feel like there should be a cliff note version that is more user friendly for someone who doesn't have half of a weekend day to read and who is not versed in this stuff.

Idk I'm just tired now and spent most of my day reading this one article that clearly didn't solve but maybe a couple of my issues.

5hrs of your day well Boo Hoo
Most of us have spent probably 5-10 years of our lives,and have still a way to go
Your post comes across as ungrateful for the help you have been given and you feel hard done by
If your time is so precious perhaps this hobby is not for you
Feel free to write a cliff note version and give something back to the forum because you have already been given the most accurate and concise information about Audyssey you will ever come across
The Audyssey GUI in your AVR clearly shows where to measure Mic positions 2,3,4,5,6,7,8 no more to be said on that
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post #159 of 1601 Old 03-25-2018, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey, I do realize that several people are taking time out of their day to help me. Isn't that what a forum is for? I can't cross reference two of similar threads to get different opinions since you just direct me to the guide every time? BTW I just spent over 5+ hours of my day reading the thread and it was informative, but doesn't solve any of the issues I have listed.

For instance, you responded to this saying to read the thread, well guess what it doesn't say anything about Mic positions 2,3,4,5,6,7,8 that I gave you a detailed list above that you couldn't respond to if I was on the right track. In your thread all it says is Mic position 1 is the MLP... that is it. I feel like the whole write up I read the same thing about 100 times over. So I'm not sure what the goal of me reading this thread was? It is all YMMV on pretty much everything.. I realize there is nothing clear cut and dry with this stuff, but that's why I am on a forum where I can ask people with real experiences and are more versed about this kind of stuff.. Most of the stuff I read was foreign, my fiance fell asleep and a whole day was spent on reading something that I thought would accomplish something.

Now I am pretty much back to where I was before.. I ordered the boom mic stand from Amazon, it says to use blankets over the leather chairs but then in the Auyddsey thread it specifically says not to introduce or take away any new items in the room such as tables, paintings, etc. So wouldn't that fall into the same category putting blankets over the chairs?

I feel like there should be a cliff note version that is more user friendly for someone who doesn't have half of a weekend day to read and who is not versed in this stuff.

Idk I'm just tired now and spent most of my day reading this one article that clearly didn't solve but maybe a couple of my issues.
Hi,

I have spent literally hundreds of hours researching and writing the Guide so that it would be helpful for people trying to calibrate their systems. Unfortunately, it does take some time to read and comprehend what is in there. But, every time I have answered a specific question, you have simply asked another question. That is the reason that everyone has been advising you to read to understand why we are telling you to do something that way.

I am going to quote a portion of the Guide that actually did answer you last questions. But, I have added a diagram to that section and some additional explanation to make it a little more like cliff notes.


"A second example of the difference between what we hear, and what Audyssey hears, concerns the nature of the omnidirectional Audyssey microphone. The Audyssey microphone hears sounds equally in all directions, but we don't. The pinnae (flaps) in our ears funnel sounds into our ears from the front and from the sides. But, they partly block and deflect sounds coming from behind us. So, early reflections from a wall behind us are going to be noticed far more by the Audyssey microphone, than they are by our ears. And, in trying to over-correct those early reflections, Audyssey may actually contribute to the distortion we hear.

[As a general rule, we don't want Audyssey to become extremely busy in the high-frequency range. Reflections from hard surfaces, bouncing into the Audyssey microphone at close range, can cause Audyssey to set too many control points at high-frequencies, causing additional distortion. The more that we understand why Audyssey might be doing things to high-frequencies that we don't like, the more that we can enjoy the overall benefits of room correction without adversely affecting our high-frequency sound quality.]

That is why Audyssey advises keeping measurement microphones at least 18" away from a wall or other hard surface. Perhaps an even better example of the difference between the way we hear and the way the microphone hears, involves chair or sofa backs. Most chairs or sofas in our HT's or mixed-use rooms have relatively smooth surfaces. Some of them have fairly firm leather surfaces.

Those smooth or hard surfaces reflect high-frequency sound waves directly into the Audyssey microphone, in a way that they never could if we were actually sitting there. And, the sounds from the back of a sofa would be sufficiently attenuated by our pinnae (ear flaps), and would reach our ears so simultaneously with the direct sound, that we would never hear them. But, the omnidirectional Audyssey microphone would hear them, and in trying to correct something that didn't need correcting, it could introduce comb-filtering (high-frequency distortion) into the sound.

One way to avoid that problem would be to keep the Audyssey microphone at least 18" away from a chair back. But then, we wouldn't be measuring where our ears are, and that could negatively impact our calibration. A better solution is simply to drape a fluffy blanket over our chair backs during calibration. That will enable us to get our microphone within about 4" or 5" of the chair back, and where our ears actually are as we listen. At the same time, that will prevent high-frequency sound waves from bouncing into the mic from very close range. And, Audyssey will leave those spurious high-frequency reflections alone, concentrating its EQ resources on broader areas of the frequency range. (Chris Kyriakakis, the creator of Audyssey, has endorsed this solution.)


Audyssey employs a system of fuzzy-logic weighting to average the results from either six or eight microphone positions (depending on the Audyssey version). In general, I believe that the more we can give Audyssey more consistent measurement results to work with, the more that we can achieve a smoother frequency response, and consequently improved sound quality. This is something that Chris Kyriakakis commented on recently in response to a question. He suggested that the more uniform the sound is within a measurement area, the more uniform the Audyssey EQ is likely to be. The examples above illustrate one aspect of that, but general microphone placement is also a factor.

* We typically want to have our microphones at ear level, even if not all of our speakers are at that same height. Keeping the mic at roughly ear level seems to be consistently important. Some users, including myself, have achieved good results by taking just a couple of measurements 2" or 3" above ear level. We typically do not want to go behind a chair back with any of our measurement positions, unless we are deliberately trying to EQ for a second row of listening chairs. And, even then, it would be a good idea to experiment with going behind the MLP, and not going behind it. It helps to recognize that Audyssey is simply trying to EQ a fairly uniform listening area and not individual seats. Other than mic position 1, which is typically centered on the primary listening chair, the mic positions don't need to correspond to actual seats.

It is also a good idea to use a boom microphone stand with an extendable arm for Audyssey calibrations. That allows the base of the stand to remain on the floor. If a tripod is placed in a chair or on a sofa, vibrations from the furniture could be passed up through the Audyssey microphone. Whether that would make a significant difference in the calibration is debatable, but for the small cost involved, I definitely think that it makes sense to use a better and more stable stand than the one that Audyssey provides. The type of stand I am recommending will also provide more exact mic placement and repeatability for calibrations. There are a number of different stands that can work. The one that I am linking below has a built-in microphone holder, which some stands do not.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...A2KDBGPI4VU5M7

** As a general rule, it is a good idea to measure smaller areas, as opposed to larger areas, for the reasons cited above. We want our measurement area to be large enough to accurately represent the binaural (hearing with both ears simultaneously) nature of our hearing. But we may not want to measure such a large area that we present Audyssey's fuzzy-logic weighting system with too much anomalous information. Patterns that vary in size from as small as about 6-12" out from the MLP (mic position 1), to as large as about 24" to the side and forward are typically used. I would not generally recommend going forward more than about 24" from mic position 1.

It is interesting to note that, in the last couple of years, Audyssey has revised it's owner instruction manuals to recommend a smaller microphone pattern than they used to recommend. They used to recommend 3' to 4' out from the MLP. I believe that they now recommend 2' or less. Their revised recommendations seem to parallel the experience of many Audyssey users, who discovered that smaller microphone patterns often resulted in better sound quality, over a wider area, than large mic patterns did. That is consistent with my own experience, and with that of a number of others on the Audyssey thread.

But, I suspect that finding an optimum microphone pattern is at least somewhat room dependent, so I suggest that interested users experiment in an effort to discover the specific microphone pattern which produces the best sound quality in their rooms. Once they find a mic pattern that they really like, I recommend that they write it down, or draw it, so that they can return to it for future calibrations. Sometimes, fairly subtle differences in microphone placement can yield significant differences in the resulting sound quality.

*** For people who are looking for some preliminary guidance in selecting microphone positions, the following visual aid is offered. This roughly 2' by 2' pattern is one that a number of people have successfully used. But, it is only shown as a starting point and not as a specific recommendation. People still need to experiment to discover what pattern works best in their particular circumstances.

In this pattern, mic position 1 is about 4" in front of a blanket covered chair, which is the MLP. Positions 2 and 3 are out to each side of 1 by about 12". 4 and 5 are straight out in front of 2 and 3 by about 24". 6 is in a straight line out from 1, about 14" to 18" away. All six of those mic positions are right at ear height (the center of the ear canal). Positions 7 and 8 are in fairly close to the chair back--perhaps about 6" away from the blanket and about 6" out to the side of mic 1. Both of the last two positions are raised up by 2" or 3" above ear level. None of the mic positions go behind the chair.


2--------1---------3
-----7--------8-----

---------6-----------

4-------------------5


The specific order of the mic positions is not important. It is only important to keep the mic level (so that it points upward) and close to ear height for at least the first six positions. People who have a version of Audyssey which only uses six mic positions might wish to eliminate 7 and 8 from the diagram shown, or they could experiment with an even more compact configuration for their six. Experimentation is the key to finding a result which pleases the individual user."


Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 03-25-2018 at 12:29 PM.
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post #160 of 1601 Old 03-25-2018, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
[/B]
5hrs of your day well Boo Hoo
Most of us have spent probably 5-10 years of our lives,and have still a way to go
Your post comes across as ungrateful for the help you have been given and you feel hard done by
If your time is so precious perhaps this hobby is not for you
Feel free to write a cliff note version and give something back to the forum because you have already been given the most accurate and concise information about Audyssey you will ever come across
The Audyssey GUI in your AVR clearly shows where to measure Mic positions 2,3,4,5,6,7,8 no more to be said on that
I am not ungrateful, I was merely writing what I thought after reading the article pertaining to my questions I had asked that I feel like were still left unanswered. I have been doing this hobby for over 14 years now so I have spent a lot more time than 5 hours lol...

So it's really easy as just looking at Audyssey's diagram and nothing more needs to be said about the Mic positions, huh? Then why does the Audyssey picture show Mic positions 7 and 8 being BEHIND the chair back when Mike says to not do it that way. Why does Audyssey include a paper Mic stand if it's not the preferred method to get the most accurate readings? I've been doing this the Audyssey way for years and I can follow directions just fine. I came to the forum because I am not getting the sound I was expecting after spending YEARS trying to get my sound dialed in. I have owned more sound setups over the years I cannot even count them and I'm only 29. That's the reason I came on this forum to learn more and get advice from those who are more versed.

But anyways, I apologize if my post seemed that way.. it's called freedom of speech where I can write how I feel about an article I kept getting directed to that I still do not think answered my questions. I feel like it was very repetitive and quite honestly from reading so much over the years and experimenting I knew a lot of the basic stuff in the article already and the technical stuff didn't answer my questions.

I hope this clears up why I wrote what I did.
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post #161 of 1601 Old 03-25-2018, 11:02 AM
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Hi,

I have spent literally hundreds of hours researching and writing the Guide so that it would be helpful for people trying to calibrate their systems. Unfortunately, it does take some time to read and comprehend what is in there. But, every time I have answered a specific question, you have simply asked another question. That is the reason that everyone has been advising you to read to understand why we are telling you to do something that way.

I am going to quote a portion of the Guide that actually did answer you last questions. But, I have added a diagram to that section and some additional explanation to make it a little more like cliff notes.


"A second example of the difference between what we hear, and what Audyssey hears, concerns the nature of the omnidirectional Audyssey microphone. The Audyssey microphone hears sounds equally in all directions, but we don't. The pinnae (flaps) in our ears funnel sounds into our ears from the front and from the sides. But, they partly block and deflect sounds coming from behind us. So, early reflections from a wall behind us are going to be noticed far more by the Audyssey microphone, than they are by our ears. And, in trying to over-correct those early reflections, Audyssey may actually contribute to the distortion we hear.

[As a general rule, we don't want Audyssey to become extremely busy in the high-frequency range. Reflections from hard surfaces, bouncing into the Audyssey microphone at close range, can cause Audyssey to set too many control points at high-frequencies, causing additional distortion. The more that we understand why Audyssey might be doing things to high-frequencies that we don't like, the more that we can enjoy the overall benefits of room correction without adversely affecting our high-frequency sound quality.]

That is why Audyssey advises keeping measurement microphones at least 18" away from a wall or other hard surface. Perhaps an even better example of the difference between the way we hear and the way the microphone hears, involves chair or sofa backs. Most chairs or sofas in our HT's or mixed-use rooms have relatively smooth surfaces. Some of them have fairly firm leather surfaces.

Those smooth or hard surfaces reflect high-frequency sound waves directly into the Audyssey microphone, in a way that they never could if we were actually sitting there. And, the sounds from the back of a sofa would be sufficiently attenuated by our pinnae, and would reach our ears so simultaneously with the direct sound, that we would never hear them. But, the omnidirectional Audyssey microphone would hear them, and in trying to correct something that didn't need correcting, it could introduce comb-filtering (high-frequency distortion) into the sound.

One way to avoid that problem would be to keep the Audyssey microphone at least 18" away from a chair back. But then, we wouldn't be measuring where our ears are, and that could negatively impact our calibration. A better solution is simply to drape a fluffy blanket over our chair backs during calibration. That will enable us to get our microphone within about 4" or 5" of the chair back, and where our ears actually are as we listen. At the same time, that will prevent high-frequency sound waves from bouncing into the mic from very close range. And, Audyssey will leave those spurious high-frequency reflections alone, concentrating its EQ resources on broader areas of the frequency range. (Chris Kyriakakis, the creator of Audyssey, has endorsed this solution.)

Audyssey employs a system of fuzzy-logic weighting to average the results from either six or eight microphone positions (depending on the Audyssey version). In general, I believe that the more we can give Audyssey more consistent measurement results to work with, the more that we can achieve a smoother frequency response, and consequently improved sound quality. This is something that Chris Kyriakakis commented on recently in response to a question. He suggested that the more uniform the sound is within a measurement area, the more uniform the Audyssey EQ is likely to be. The examples above illustrate one aspect of that, but general microphone placement is also a factor.

* We typically want to have our microphones at ear level, even if not all of our speakers are at that same height. Keeping the mic at roughly ear level seems to be consistently important. Some users, including myself, have achieved good results by taking just a couple of measurements 2" or 3" above ear level. We typically do not want to go behind a chair back with any of our measurement positions, unless we are deliberately trying to EQ for a second row of listening chairs. And, even then, it would be a good idea to experiment with going behind the MLP, and not going behind it. It helps to recognize that Audyssey is simply trying to EQ a fairly uniform listening area and not individual seats. Other than mic position 1, which is typically centered on the primary listening chair, the mic positions don't need to correspond to actual seats.

It is also a good idea to use a boom microphone stand with an extendable arm for Audyssey calibrations. That allows the base of the stand to remain on the floor. If a tripod is placed in a chair or on a sofa, vibrations from the furniture could be passed up through the Audyssey microphone. Whether that would make a significant difference in the calibration is debatable, but for the small cost involved, I definitely think that it makes sense to use a better and more stable stand than the one that Audyssey provides. The type of stand I am recommending will also provide more exact mic placement and repeatability for calibrations. There are a number of different stands that can work. The one that I am linking below has a built-in microphone holder, which some stands do not.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...A2KDBGPI4VU5M7

** As a general rule, it is a good idea to measure smaller areas, as opposed to larger areas, for the reasons cited above. We want our measurement area to be large enough to accurately represent the binaural (hearing with both ears simultaneously) nature of our hearing. But we may not want to measure such a large area that we present Audyssey's fuzzy-logic weighting system with too much anomalous information. Patterns that vary in size from as small as about 6-12" out from the MLP (mic position 1), to as large as about 24" to the side and forward are typically used. I would not generally recommend going forward more than about 24" from mic position 1.

It is interesting to note that, in the last couple of years, Audyssey has revised it's owner instruction manuals to recommend a smaller microphone pattern than they used to recommend. They used to recommend 3' to 4' out from the MLP. I believe that they now recommend 2' or less. Their revised recommendations seem to parallel the experience of many Audyssey users, who discovered that smaller microphone patterns often resulted in better sound quality, over a wider area, than large mic patterns did. That is consistent with my own experience, and with that of a number of others on the Audyssey thread.

But, I suspect that finding an optimum microphone pattern is at least somewhat room dependent, so I suggest that interested users experiment in an effort to discover the specific microphone pattern which produces the best sound quality in their rooms. Once they find a mic pattern that they really like, I recommend that they write it down, or draw it, so that they can return to it for future calibrations. Sometimes, fairly subtle differences in microphone placement can yield significant differences in the resulting sound quality.

*** For people who are looking for some preliminary guidance in selecting microphone positions, the following visual aid is offered. This roughly 2' by 2' pattern is one that a number of people have successfully used. But, it is only shown as a starting point and not as a specific recommendation. People still need to experiment to discover what pattern works best in their particular circumstances.

In this pattern, mic position 1 is about 4" in front of a blanket covered chair, which is the MLP. Positions 2 and 3 are out to each side of 1 by about 12". 4 and 5 are straight out in front of 2 and 3 by about 24". 6 is in a straight line out from 1, about 14" to 18" away. All six of those mic positions are right at ear height (the center of the ear canal). Positions 7 and 8 are in fairly close to the chair back--perhaps about 6" away from the blanket and about 6" out to the side of mic 1. Both of the last two positions are raised up by 2" or 3" above ear level. None of the mic positions go behind the chair.


2--------1---------3
-----7--------8-----

---------6-----------

4-------------------5


The specific order of the mic positions is not important. It is only important to keep the mic level (so that it points upward) and close to ear height for at least the first six positions. People who have a version of Audyssey which only uses six mic positions might wish to eliminate 7 and 8 from the diagram shown, or they could experiment with an even more compact configuration for their six. Experimentation is the key to finding a result which pleases the individual user."


Regards,
Mike
Mike,

Per the last persons post in regard to my initial reply, it was pointed out that I'm ungrateful for your detailed write up. I do not want you to think this and I'm just confused after reading the article.

Now that you have explained that the goal of reading it was to help me better understand why you guys recommend certain things makes it clearer for me to see why it was recommended to read it.

I'm still confused though as mentioned.. in the Audyssey part II thread it specifically says in that article not to introduce any new furniture, paintings, tables, etc that aren't going to be in the room after calibrating. The same concept applies to removing items in the room as well. So why would we add blankets to skew the results of Audyssey's calibration by eliminating more reflections from the smooth leather chair backs? I'm assuming because after calibration people will be sitting there anyways so a big body covering the chair is realistic and that's why a blanket is used?

As mentioned already I ordered the boom Mic stand on Amazon because I have spent years trying to get this HT audio figured out and before then it was trying to figure out how to build a race car and getting good audio out of a car sound system. I am trying all I can to understand the way this stuff works, which is why I read the article. I just left feeling disappointed because I already know the basics of this stuff and have been experimenting for years with it. I remember doing a sub crawl several years ago and still doing understand how to do it because my subs have always been too large to put on my seats.

But anyways, I follow things by the book always and I just don't understand why your recommendations for Mic positions are different than what Audyssey diagram shows ? For instance 7 and 8 are shown behind the couch on the Audyssey diagram and I have always done those as instructed per Audyssey xt32.

So let's make sure I understand what your recommendations are to try for the Mic positions so we are on the same page.

I will first take thick fluffy blankets and hang them over the chair backs. Do I also want to cover up the actual back part of the chair as well or just the chair back that I sit against? For instance do I want the blanket to cover the chair back that I sit up against and then have the blanket extend to the back of the chair to cover that piece too?

Next I will setup the new boom Mic stand behind the couch chair back sinve i do not want the stand blocking the front of the chair.. I will add the microphone to the boom Mic stand and then adjust the height and the arm so that it hangs over the chair for Mic position 1 MLP which will be 4" in front of the blanket centered on my recliner at ear level.

Next, it sounds like Mic 2 will be in that center walkway aisle where there is no recliner couch at ear level. Mic 3 would be ear level on the center console to the left of my chair closer to the blanket shown in my initial picture. Mic 4 and 5 are straight out from these points at ear level by 24".

For Mic 6 are you saying it's in a straight line in front of exactly where Mic 1 was and measures 14 to 18" away from Mic 1 position?

Finally this is the more confusing part again since Audyssey shows 7 and 8 being BEHIND the chair completely.

7 Mic position will be halfway in between 1 and 3 Mic positions but in front of them? Mic 8 will be halfway in between Mic 1 and 2 positions in front of them?

So why are they going in front of 1, 2, 3 versus behind the chair like the Audyssey diagram shows?

Again, I apologize if my initial post at 1am sounded ungrateful, I greatly appreciate all of the help including the informative article but I'm still left confused and need more help.

Thanks again, Mike.
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Mike,

Per the last persons post in regard to my initial reply, it was pointed out that I'm ungrateful for your detailed write up. I do not want you to think this and I'm just confused after reading the article.

Now that you have explained that the goal of reading it was to help me better understand why you guys recommend certain things makes it clearer for me to see why it was recommended to read it.

I'm still confused though as mentioned.. in the Audyssey part II thread it specifically says in that article not to introduce any new furniture, paintings, tables, etc that aren't going to be in the room after calibrating. The same concept applies to removing items in the room as well. So why would we add blankets to skew the results of Audyssey's calibration by eliminating more reflections from the smooth leather chair backs? I'm assuming because after calibration people will be sitting there anyways so a big body covering the chair is realistic and that's why a blanket is used?

As mentioned already I ordered the boom Mic stand on Amazon because I have spent years trying to get this HT audio figured out and before then it was trying to figure out how to build a race car and getting good audio out of a car sound system. I am trying all I can to understand the way this stuff works, which is why I read the article. I just left feeling disappointed because I already know the basics of this stuff and have been experimenting for years with it. I remember doing a sub crawl several years ago and still doing understand how to do it because my subs have always been too large to put on my seats.

But anyways, I follow things by the book always and I just don't understand why your recommendations for Mic positions are different than what Audyssey diagram shows ? For instance 7 and 8 are shown behind the couch on the Audyssey diagram and I have always done those as instructed per Audyssey xt32.

So let's make sure I understand what your recommendations are to try for the Mic positions so we are on the same page.

I will first take thick fluffy blankets and hang them over the chair backs. Do I also want to cover up the actual back part of the chair as well or just the chair back that I sit against? For instance do I want the blanket to cover the chair back that I sit up against and then have the blanket extend to the back of the chair to cover that piece too?

Next I will setup the new boom Mic stand behind the couch chair back sinve i do not want the stand blocking the front of the chair.. I will add the microphone to the boom Mic stand and then adjust the height and the arm so that it hangs over the chair for Mic position 1 MLP which will be 4" in front of the blanket centered on my recliner at ear level.

Next, it sounds like Mic 2 will be in that center walkway aisle where there is no recliner couch at ear level. Mic 3 would be ear level on the center console to the left of my chair closer to the blanket shown in my initial picture. Mic 4 and 5 are straight out from these points at ear level by 24".

For Mic 6 are you saying it's in a straight line in front of exactly where Mic 1 was and measures 14 to 18" away from Mic 1 position?

Finally this is the more confusing part again since Audyssey shows 7 and 8 being BEHIND the chair completely.

7 Mic position will be halfway in between 1 and 3 Mic positions but in front of them? Mic 8 will be halfway in between Mic 1 and 2 positions in front of them?

So why are they going in front of 1, 2, 3 versus behind the chair like the Audyssey diagram shows?

Again, I apologize if my initial post at 1am sounded ungrateful, I greatly appreciate all of the help including the informative article but I'm still left confused and need more help.

Thanks again, Mike.

You are welcome! But, you have to understand my frustration too. I keep giving you clear advice, such as to use a blanket over the chair back, and you keep telling me what Audyssey says. How can I help you if you don't actually read and understand the reasons why you need to do this? I will go back to my post above and bold the part you need to read to understand why the blanket works, and why the creator of Audyssey approves of it. Just cover the chair back wherever the Audyssey microphone is within about 18" of a leather surface.

You need to understand that Audyssey's advice is very basic, just like the instructions in your AVR. The Guide represents the distilled experience of hundreds of Audyssey users. You don't have to follow the advice in the Guide, but it's the only advice I can give you. And, there really is a strong YMMV component to this stuff.

Don't go behind your chair with any mic positions, because there is no one sitting back there, and no reason to do it. Plus there is a wall back there that will just reflect into the omnidirectional Audyssey microphone. That's simply bad (or at least too general) advice from Audyssey, if there isn't a second row back there.

With respect to the mic positions, just slow down and think about what I wrote. The back of your chair is at least about 24" wide. If mic 1 is in the center of your chair right, between your ears, then going 12" out to each side of mic 1 will still keep you within about the width of your chair, not out in the walkway between couches. You should certainly use whatever pattern you like. That's just an example of one that has been well-tested by a number of people.

Regards,
Mike


Edit: I decided to edit this part for just a little more clarity. The area at your ears, to the side of your ears, and in front of your ears, constitutes your best measurement area. The area behind you has problems, including early reflections from walls which can skew the Audyssey calibration. That's why they tell you to keep the microphone away from walls. Please either just try this pattern or don't.
Adamg (Ret-Navy) likes this.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 03-25-2018 at 12:23 PM.
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post #163 of 1601 Old 03-25-2018, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
You are welcome! But, you have to understand my frustration too. I keep giving you clear advice, such as to use a blanket over the chair back, and you keep telling me what Audyssey says. How can I help you if you don't actually read and understand the reasons why you need to do this? I will go back to my post above and bold the part you need to read to understand why the blanket works, and why the creator of Audyssey approves of it. Just cover the chair back wherever the Audyssey microphone is within about 18" of a leather surface.

You need to understand that Audyssey's advice is very basic, just like the instructions in your AVR. The Guide represents the distilled experience of hundreds of Audyssey users. You don't have to follow the advice in the Guide, but it's the only advice I can give you. And, there really is a strong YMMV component to this stuff.

Don't go behind your chair with any mic positions, because there is no one sitting back there, and no reason to do it. Plus there is a wall back there that will just reflect into the omnidirectional Audyssey microphone. That's simply bad (or at least too general) advice from Audyssey, if there isn't a second row back there.

With respect to the mic positions, just slow down and think about what I wrote. The back of your chair is at least about 24" wide. If mic 1 is in the center of your chair right, between your ears, then going 12" out to each side of mic 1 will still keep you within about the width of your chair, not out in the walkway between couches. You should certainly use whatever pattern you like. That's just an example of one that has been well-tested by a number of people.

Regards,
Mike


Edit: I decided to edit this part for just a little more clarity. The area at your ears, to the side of your ears, and in front of your ears, constitutes your best measurement area. The area behind you has problems, including early reflections from walls which can skew the Audyssey calibration. That's why they tell you to keep the microphone away from walls. Please either just try this pattern or don't.
Hey thanks again Mike for such an awesome and detailed reply. I honestly think that since I read all of the article with no rest and even read things like the dual sub part and shopping for a sub, it causes me to not really soak in the information well since there are so many technicalities to this after all.

Now that I re read your entire post in bold and your last post again I understand it. Most things just take me longer to catch on to that I'm unfamiliar with quite honestly. I also read quite a bit of the Audyssey part II thread last night too so I think combining your thread and that one made it even more confusing.

So now that I understand the way this works should I read the Audyssey part II thread again? Is there usual stuff that I would benefit from that's not in this article?

Also, now that we have established what I do with the Mic and how important that is to the end calibration, can we talk about some other things since now I have a couple of days until the new boom Mic stand comes? I'm glad to finally get rid of the cheap paper airplane that comes with Audyssey that I've been using for years.

I realize a lot of this stuff is YMMV but I am just looking for good guidelines to abide by. I just need to get this theater room and my room upstairs good enough. It doesn't need to be perfect. When my fiance finishes pharmacy school in 3.5 years and gets into her career we will get our own home and then we will buy acoustic panels, probably not as drastic as the ones in that drum YouTube video you showed but our theater is going to be a true theater instead of my parents is just a movie room.

Anyways though, which guide do you use for the speaker placements for the 7.0 channels? The one that was linked from blu ray's site with the dipole vs bipole? Is all of this stuff still relevant since that article was written in 2008?

I just need general rule of thumbs. For instance if it's recommended to place the side surrounds on the walls beside the couch about 2 to 3 feet up from ear level for movies, then I want to fix this now. If it's recommended that the towers have so many inches of breathing room on each side and in the back since mine both have ports on them, then I want to do it now.

Svs also mentioned you can block the ports on the towers, is that a good idea? I figured not.

I'm going to adjust the center channel off the edge 1" I need a solution to angle it on the stand though since the door stopper is too big. What options are there for this?

I'm leaving the prime elevation speakers where they are because my parents don't want ceiling speakers.

So if I tow the towers in a little bit and angle them at the MLP it won't be an equalaterial triangle since my seat, the MLP, is off to side of the center. So that means I will need to tow the front right speaker in a whole lot more, etc. So since it will be very drastic angle on one side should the towers be angled at the MLP or more so the center of the room? What's a good rule here?

I am just trying to get everything positioned around the correct location in the room so I can calibrate and hopefully be finished with this sooner than later and enjoy some movies.

Thank you much
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post #164 of 1601 Old 03-25-2018, 06:27 PM
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iStorm


Here is my short and dirty version


Since your room is over a concrete, cover by a carpet, like mine.
Having Tactile vibration, will not happen unless the sub is very near your sitting position, as you discover.
It may work good for one and maybe two spot.
For more sweet spots, you need either one more sub or some TT.
Just laws of physic, that cannot be broken.


My subs are in the front of the room, so I had none and that was with two PB13 Ultra.
Until, I added some TT (set very low now, the novelty do wear off fast), just the nature of our room, and now more concentrate on How it sound over feeling the sound.


In short, for this one, You are chasing the White Rabbit


For the microphone placement, for the Audyssey calibration.
Keep in mind, Audyssey only care about position 1 (MLP), positions 2-8, are only there to figure the rest of the room around position one (lets call-it the bubble of sound).
Since You have a smaller room, like mine, our bubble will be smaller that the bigger room, just a fact of life.


So at this point, You have two choices;
- 1 perfect MLP, or
- 2 good ones?


I did-it that way, And did both options.
A little bit different than what Mike suggested.


First perfect spot;
- since I am back to three front seat, I aim for one perfect spot (mine), the center seat of the front row.


The way I place the mic positions were as follow;
- around 8" (at my hear level) from the headrest of the center, and in the middle of my center seat, for position one
- positions 2 and 3, were also the same distance for height and distance and the headrest, just above the armrest of the left and right chairs
- positions 4-8 on this very bad diagram


[ =the left arm of the seat on the left side
] =the right arm of the right seat on the right side
X =mic position for MLP
2-8 =microphone position
. = for making spaces


4......5......6
[3..][X][..2]
...7.........8


For two good spot, you could try the following;


..4..5..6
[2 ]X[ 3]
...7....8


All calibrations can only take care of one perfect spot, all others reading are there for figuring out the rest of your room.
The bigger the room, the more options someone can have.
With smaller room like ours, more choices need to be made.


Either one perfect spot, or a couple with some imperfections.


Ray

Last edited by darthray; 03-26-2018 at 06:00 PM.
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post #165 of 1601 Old 03-25-2018, 07:27 PM
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Hi I have been MIA and have not been following anything for a couple of years now.

I have a 7.1 system and will be upgrading to a 7.2 . I am adding a second Sub25 next month. Problem is the cable I used with my first sub I am having a difficult finding a second cable for the second sub.

I use Ultralink Platinum SUBMKll specs are as follows

Tri-GaugeTM, Time-AlignedTM directionally balanced twisted-pair conductors
High-density double-shielding (aluminum Mylar®️ foil + 98% copper braid)
Cryogenically-treated, ultra-high purity, laboratory-grade 6N pure copper
Precision machined, patented Vacuum Spring-Lock®️ RCA connectors with PTFE insulation and 24K direct gold-plated contacts
Ultra-low capacitance PTFE dielectric insulation.

People will say use a $30 cable and I will be fine but I did that and got back feed on the cable and made my SUB sound like a bomb went off one day. I took it in to service to have a look it was all good. Paradigm service tech said only use high end cables and not the cheap ones. I ended up with ultralink platinum.

I get cables almost at cost but not sure what to use as the second cable and I don't want to spend a ton of money. A couple hundred or less would be great. I am currently looking at audioquest, xlo, kimbercable, if there are other ones I can look at that have same or similar specs please let me know.

Can't wait to add my second Paradigm Sub25 to my system. Even my speaker cables are ultralink platinum cables. These cables were highly recommended over a higher more expensive cables.

I know this topic can get a bit crazy with different theories on cables. Thank you in advance for your help.

Monitor Audio RS8'S: Fronts(2) & Rears (2)
Monitor Audio RSLCR: Centre channel(1)
Monitor Audio RSFX: Surrounds sides(2)
Paradigm Signature Sub25 -
Pioneer Elite SC-99 & Panasonic UB900 & Sony XBR75X940C
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
iStorm


Here is my short and dirty version


Since your room is over a concrete, cover by a carpet, like mine.
Having Tactile vibration, will not happen unless the sub is very near your sitting position, as you discover.
It may work good for one and maybe two spot.
For more sweet spots, you need either one more sub or some TT.
Just laws of physic, that cannot be broken.


My subs are in the front of the room, so I had none and that was with two PB13 Ultra.
Until, I added some TT (set very low now, the novelty do wear off fast), just the nature of our room, and now more concentrate on How it sound over feeling the sound.


In short, for this one, You are chasing the White Rabbit


For the microphone placement, for the Audyssey calibration.
Keep in mind, Audyssey only care about position 1 (MLP), positions 2-8, are only there to figure the rest of the room around position one (lets call-it the bubble of sound).
Since You have a smaller room, like mine, our bubble will be smaller that the bigger room, just a fact of life.


So at this point, You have two choices;
- 1 perfect MLP, or
- 2 good ones?


I did-it that way, And did both options.
A little bit different than what Mike suggested.


First perfect spot;
- since I am back to three front seat, I aim for one perfect spot (mine), the center seat of the front row.


The way I place the mic positions were as follow;
- around 8" (at my hear level) from the headrest of the center, and in the middle of my center seat, for position one
- positions 2 and 3, were also the same distance for height and distance and the headrest, just above the armrest of the left and right chairs
- positions 4-8 on this very bad diagram


[ =the left arm of the seat on the left side
] =the right arm of the right seat on the right side
X =mic position for MLP
2-8 =microphone position
. = for making spaces


4......5......6
[3...[X][...2]
...7..........8


For two good spot, you could try the following;


..4..5..6
[2 ]X[ 3]
...7....8


All calibrations can only take care of one perfect spot, all others reading are there for figuring out the rest of your room.
The bigger the room, the more options someone can have.
With smaller room like ours, more choices need to be made.


Either one perfect spot, or a couple with some imperfections.


Ray
Ray, thank you much for this detailed writeup. I will definitely try both and let you know which one works the best. I like the simplicity of the writeup as well. I am just now waiting on the microphone stand to come from Amazon and then I can make the adjustments to the center channel (moving it forward and inch off of the stand), moving up the surround speakers 2 to 3 feet above my head position, and some other minor adjustments.

As I mentioned earlier and to Mike, I am still trying to find out a solution for angling the center channel towards the MLP once I move it up an inch. I have the door stoppers right now but once I move the center channel up then the door stoppers are going to be too big. Do people use like a 2x4 underneath the center to raise it up? I kind of more need something smaller underneath the center to angle it though since the 2x4 might make the center hit the top of the glass above it (top shelf) since it is mounted on the second shelf. Any ideas?

Also, I was asking Mike, but haven't heard back. I am trying to figure out where to toe in the front towers. Would I toe them into the MLP which is my chair? Since my chair isn't in the center it would make the toe in look uneven for the front towers. I hope you can help.

Finally, do you agree that I should just stick to the placement of my surrounds on the wall and then just move them up a bit (2 to 3 feet above the ear level when I sit down on the couch). They are like right up in the person's face almost that sits in that chair so that's probably why they recommend that you place them 2 to 3 feet above ear level when sitting on the wall.

Once I get these few adjustments made then I can focus on watching movies again.

As far as the sub goes, I am just going to leave the sub laying down behind the one side wall with the driver up against the corner wall. If I run the sub hot then it makes it so we can feel the rumble more. It might not sound as good having it here but for the tactile response and not having any more of a budget for this room, it is really my only option. Again, in case you missed, I gave this full theater setup to my parents for being able to live here so all of the budget has came out of my pocket and then when I move they are going to keep the theater so I cannot invest any more money into this setup so one sub will have to do.

Thanks for the help.
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post #167 of 1601 Old 03-26-2018, 03:55 PM
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Mike (and I) are not suggesting that you move your center channel up an inch...we are suggesting that you pull it forward so that the front baffle of the speaker is overhanging the edge of the cabinet by about 1". Is that more clear? If not, please let me know where the confusion lies.

Yes, you should try to move your surrounds up. If you can round up a couple adjustable ladders they can work well to test different mounting locations. If not, I would stick with the 2'-3' above seated ear height.

Toe-ing in the mains will be another one of those trial and error things...I would try toe-ing them in as you suggested earlier, FL pointing at the left inner seat and FR pointing at the right inner seat. Sit down in both chairs and put on some 2 channel music (with the AVR in Stereo mode) and listen to see if the vocalist is firmly anchored directly between both speakers. Also listen for soundstage and spaciousness. Then, experiment with more/less extreme toe-in angles until it sounds right to you. Most people seem to enjoy having the mains toed-in so that they cross a foot or two behind the MLP, but...yet again...YMMV.

FWIW, I sit about 14' from my mains which are about 8' apart and I use zero toe-in...sounds great to me!
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post #168 of 1601 Old 03-26-2018, 05:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iStorm View Post
Ray, thank you much for this detailed writeup. I will definitely try both and let you know which one works the best. I like the simplicity of the writeup as well. I am just now waiting on the microphone stand to come from Amazon and then I can make the adjustments to the center channel (moving it forward and inch off of the stand), moving up the surround speakers 2 to 3 feet above my head position, and some other minor adjustments.

As I mentioned earlier and to Mike, I am still trying to find out a solution for angling the center channel towards the MLP once I move it up an inch. I have the door stoppers right now but once I move the center channel up then the door stoppers are going to be too big. Do people use like a 2x4 underneath the center to raise it up? I kind of more need something smaller underneath the center to angle it though since the 2x4 might make the center hit the top of the glass above it (top shelf) since it is mounted on the second shelf. Any ideas?

Also, I was asking Mike, but haven't heard back. I am trying to figure out where to toe in the front towers. Would I toe them into the MLP which is my chair? Since my chair isn't in the center it would make the toe in look uneven for the front towers. I hope you can help.

Finally, do you agree that I should just stick to the placement of my surrounds on the wall and then just move them up a bit (2 to 3 feet above the ear level when I sit down on the couch). They are like right up in the person's face almost that sits in that chair so that's probably why they recommend that you place them 2 to 3 feet above ear level when sitting on the wall.

Once I get these few adjustments made then I can focus on watching movies again.

As far as the sub goes, I am just going to leave the sub laying down behind the one side wall with the driver up against the corner wall. If I run the sub hot then it makes it so we can feel the rumble more. It might not sound as good having it here but for the tactile response and not having any more of a budget for this room, it is really my only option. Again, in case you missed, I gave this full theater setup to my parents for being able to live here so all of the budget has came out of my pocket and then when I move they are going to keep the theater so I cannot invest any more money into this setup so one sub will have to do.

Thanks for the help.
Hi,

Alan and Ray have already given you some help, so there won't be much I can add. I am also confused why your doorstops won't work when you pull your CC forward.The doorstops will just be further back from the edge of the speaker than they are now. If pulling the speaker forward an inch causes the doorstops to elevate it too much, just get smaller doorstops.

Part of the reason that I gave setup advice in the Guide, for the front speakers, is because the Audyssey mic doesn't hear the way we do. It hears tiny variations in sounds that we never would. So, if the speakers aren't pointed fairly well, the EQ might create some high-frequency distortion. I'm not saying that it would. I'm just covering all the bases.

So, you can experiment with listening to your speakers, with more toe-in, and then with less, and pick your favorite spot for them. Then, after you calibrate with your new mic stand, if the high frequency sound isn't quite what you want, you can experiment some more. But, no one can look at photos of your room and tell you how to point your speakers. You have to experiment and listen to the results.

* There is a consistent thread running through all of your posts that I want to point out and emphasize. You may believe that there is a perfect way to set things up, so that you won't ever have to mess with any of it again. If only we would look harder at your photos, and offer you better and clearer advice, your audio system would be perfect.

But, it doesn't work that way. Setting up your audio system, and calibrating it, is like cooking a meal. You start with your selected ingredients (your audio system), in your kitchen (your AV room) and then you generally follow a recipe (the Guide). But, in the end, you are the one who has to decide whether you like your steak rare, or medium, or well done. You are the one who decides what vegetables to add and whether you like gravy. And, you are the one who adds the seasoning to satisfy your personal taste. And, your tastes may change over time as you continue to cook.

Audio is exactly like that. What sounds good to Alan, or to Ray, or to me, will probably be a little different. Or maybe very different! Just as if we were preparing and eating a meal. And, your personal preferences will be different, too. You mentioned seeing a lot of YMMV in the Guide, and you just saw it again in Alan's post. That's because audio is an entertainment hobby. And, you are the one who has to be entertained.

The only way you will discover what you like best is to experiment, and then to listen. So, generally follow the recipe, but understand that I named it a Guide for a reason. It only guides you. It doesn't guarantee what will work best, in your room, for your preferences. No one but you can ultimately know that.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #169 of 1601 Old 03-26-2018, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Mike (and I) are not suggesting that you move your center channel up an inch...we are suggesting that you pull it forward so that the front baffle of the speaker is overhanging the edge of the cabinet by about 1". Is that more clear? If not, please let me know where the confusion lies.

Yes, you should try to move your surrounds up. If you can round up a couple adjustable ladders they can work well to test different mounting locations. If not, I would stick with the 2'-3' above seated ear height.

Toe-ing in the mains will be another one of those trial and error things...I would try toe-ing them in as you suggested earlier, FL pointing at the left inner seat and FR pointing at the right inner seat. Sit down in both chairs and put on some 2 channel music (with the AVR in Stereo mode) and listen to see if the vocalist is firmly anchored directly between both speakers. Also listen for soundstage and spaciousness. Then, experiment with more/less extreme toe-in angles until it sounds right to you. Most people seem to enjoy having the mains toed-in so that they cross a foot or two behind the MLP, but...yet again...YMMV.

FWIW, I sit about 14' from my mains which are about 8' apart and I use zero toe-in...sounds great to me!

+1



Quote:
Originally Posted by iStorm View Post
Ray, thank you much for this detailed writeup. I will definitely try both and let you know which one works the best. I like the simplicity of the writeup as well. I am just now waiting on the microphone stand to come from Amazon and then I can make the adjustments to the center channel (moving it forward and inch off of the stand), moving up the surround speakers 2 to 3 feet above my head position, and some other minor adjustments.

As I mentioned earlier and to Mike, I am still trying to find out a solution for angling the center channel towards the MLP once I move it up an inch. I have the door stoppers right now but once I move the center channel up then the door stoppers are going to be too big. Do people use like a 2x4 underneath the center to raise it up? I kind of more need something smaller underneath the center to angle it though since the 2x4 might make the center hit the top of the glass above it (top shelf) since it is mounted on the second shelf. Any ideas?

Also, I was asking Mike, but haven't heard back. I am trying to figure out where to toe in the front towers. Would I toe them into the MLP which is my chair? Since my chair isn't in the center it would make the toe in look uneven for the front towers. I hope you can help.

Finally, do you agree that I should just stick to the placement of my surrounds on the wall and then just move them up a bit (2 to 3 feet above the ear level when I sit down on the couch). They are like right up in the person's face almost that sits in that chair so that's probably why they recommend that you place them 2 to 3 feet above ear level when sitting on the wall.

Once I get these few adjustments made then I can focus on watching movies again.

As far as the sub goes, I am just going to leave the sub laying down behind the one side wall with the driver up against the corner wall. If I run the sub hot then it makes it so we can feel the rumble more. It might not sound as good having it here but for the tactile response and not having any more of a budget for this room, it is really my only option. Again, in case you missed, I gave this full theater setup to my parents for being able to live here so all of the budget has came out of my pocket and then when I move they are going to keep the theater so I cannot invest any more money into this setup so one sub will have to do.

Thanks for the help.

For the toe in/out.


The way I do mine is with music on stereo (no center and surrounds On).
I start with the speakers pointing out directly toward the back of the room.
Then start playing with the toe in, and keep doing so until the main singer voice is dead center, and the rest of the band still have a nice sound stage.
If going too much in, your sound stage will collapse (then just back off on the toe in), just a matter of trying a lot of different sound track, until all sound good, Just a matter of tries and errors


For center angle.
Your door stoppers should work just fine, move your Center forward, until about 1 inch stick out of the shelf it is sitting on and readjust the door stopper until everything fall into place.
I have a descent size Center that it is also curve (picture can be seen on my Theater page in my Signature).
Here's some instructions to angle the Center;

-First, go get yourself a cheap laserpointer, a flat one if possible.
-Then put-it on top of one of your main (does not matter which one, since they are both the same height).
-Point at your listening area.
-Put a piece of tape to mark the position.
-measure with a ruler the distance from the top of the speaker to the center of the tweeter.
-Go back to your piece of tape at your listening area and subtract that distance going down.
-Put a new piece of tape (it will be call, piece of tape #2) and remove the first one.


-Now do the same for the center speaker with a little difference.
-First measure the distance from the top of the center speaker to the center of the tweeter.
-Go back to your main listening area.
-Remember piece of tape #2
-now take the distance from the top of your center to the center of tweeter and go up from the piece of tape #2 to that distance.
-put piece of tape #3 , and piece of tape #2 can be remove if you like, since it was the distance of your mains tweeter.


-put the laser pointer on top of your center
-adjust angle until the light hit that piece of tape (#3 ).


Now you're done, all tweeters should hit the main listening position at the same height(for the main listening position)."


Also, Make sure your center speaker is sticking out of the cabinet by about an inch.
Sound reflection from the edge of a cabinet can play havoc on your sound.


Then, re-run a full calibration, for all speakers and sub.
The result will be different.


I know, at this point, You might feel frustrated.
In my line of work, frustration could result in death/or serious injuries, so we are reminded daily ,if frustration happen.
Stop and take a breather, to take some time to think.
We call it "Stop and Think".


Just have fun while doing all these experiment, after all, it is only a Hobby, and the longer it take to solve the puzzle.
The more, You will appreciate the result.


Ray
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Last edited by darthray; 03-27-2018 at 07:04 PM.
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post #170 of 1601 Old 03-26-2018, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by whasaaaab View Post
Hi I have been MIA and have not been following anything for a couple of years now.

I have a 7.1 system and will be upgrading to a 7.2 . I am adding a second Sub25 next month. Problem is the cable I used with my first sub I am having a difficult finding a second cable for the second sub.

I use Ultralink Platinum SUBMKll specs are as follows

Tri-GaugeTM, Time-AlignedTM directionally balanced twisted-pair conductors
High-density double-shielding (aluminum Mylar®️ foil + 98% copper braid)
Cryogenically-treated, ultra-high purity, laboratory-grade 6N pure copper
Precision machined, patented Vacuum Spring-Lock®️ RCA connectors with PTFE insulation and 24K direct gold-plated contacts
Ultra-low capacitance PTFE dielectric insulation.

People will say use a $30 cable and I will be fine but I did that and got back feed on the cable and made my SUB sound like a bomb went off one day. I took it in to service to have a look it was all good. Paradigm service tech said only use high end cables and not the cheap ones. I ended up with ultralink platinum.

I get cables almost at cost but not sure what to use as the second cable and I don't want to spend a ton of money. A couple hundred or less would be great. I am currently looking at audioquest, xlo, kimbercable, if there are other ones I can look at that have same or similar specs please let me know.

Can't wait to add my second Paradigm Sub25 to my system. Even my speaker cables are ultralink platinum cables. These cables were highly recommended over a higher more expensive cables.

I know this topic can get a bit crazy with different theories on cables. Thank you in advance for your help.

The cable debate as existed since the beginning of time for Audio, and will go on for ever.


What happen to your sub, as nothing to do with the cable, unless;
1) the cable was defective, or
2) the sub was defective


The people telling you a $30 cable will suffice are right, and the service technician is wrong.
Any well made cable can work, no need to spend a fortune on them.


Ray
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post #171 of 1601 Old 03-26-2018, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
The cable debate as existed since the beginning of time for Audio, and will go on for ever.


What happen to your sub, as nothing to do with the cable, unless;
1) the cable was defective, or
2) the sub was defective


The people telling you a $30 cable will suffice are right, and the service technician is wrong.
Any well made cable can work, no need to spend a fortune on them.


Ray
Hi thanks for replying

What happen to your sub, as nothing to do with the cable, unless:
wife was home alone and the Sub sounded like a bin like a bomb went off . She thought the furnace blew. The Sub after was making loud pulsating sound. My system was completely off.

1) the cable was defective, or = Atlona subwoofer cable. $30 I think can't remember could be a bit more. Their hDMi cables were really good when they came out.
Top End Subwoofer cable; made of High-Purity Oxygen Free Copper (OFC) conductor, it has the characteristics of high conductivity, low signal loss and degradation, low electric resistance and good signal transmission. High-Density double shielded design will reduce interference to a minimum and will provide a clear, “deep” bass experience. This cable is featured with 24K Gold Plated RCA connectors to ensure a perfect connection

Specs:
2M single RCA male to single RCA male
RCA male to dual RCA male adapter included
24k Gold Plated connectors
High-Purity Oxygen Free Copper conductor
High-Density double shielding for max rejection of EMI and RFI
ROHS standard rated
CL2 standard rated
Nylon Sleeve offers extra protection against moisture and dust

2) the sub was defective. Paradigm said sub was perfectly fine and no charge to see if anything was wrong. They said it had to be the cable. Either defective or low grade cable. He said to use a better cable like audioquest or kimber kable etc... he mentioned some other ones can't remember.

My current cable I got at cost, just over $100.

Monitor Audio RS8'S: Fronts(2) & Rears (2)
Monitor Audio RSLCR: Centre channel(1)
Monitor Audio RSFX: Surrounds sides(2)
Paradigm Signature Sub25 -
Pioneer Elite SC-99 & Panasonic UB900 & Sony XBR75X940C

Last edited by whasaaaab; 03-26-2018 at 09:39 PM.
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post #172 of 1601 Old 03-27-2018, 03:21 AM
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The old saying "No good deed goes unpunished" comes to mind after reading this page. When being kind and tying to help others becomes a duty and responsibility the fun factor gets sucked right out.

Kindness, Gratitude and patience is in short supply. Remember that people do this voluntary and no one is getting paid here. Much of the Technical advice being delved out here is the result of Decades of learning and experience. We are so very fortunate to have this level of talent and expertise here.

@mthomas47 mad respect and admiration for your demonstrated patience, composure, and endurance. BZ Mike
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post #173 of 1601 Old 03-27-2018, 06:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
The old saying "No good deed goes unpunished" comes to mind after reading this page. When being kind and tying to help others becomes a duty and responsibility the fun factor gets sucked right out.

Kindness, Gratitude and patience is in short supply. Remember that people do this voluntary and no one is getting paid here. Much of the Technical advice being delved out here is the result of Decades of learning and experience. We are so very fortunate to have this level of talent and expertise here.

@mthomas47 mad respect and admiration for your demonstrated patience, composure, and endurance. BZ Mike
Thank you very much, Adam! As always, I really appreciate your understanding and encouragement.
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post #174 of 1601 Old 03-27-2018, 02:22 PM
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I am going to try SVS Soundpath subwoofer cable.

https://www.svsound.com/products/sou...connect-cable#

Specs look great and the reviews are great too. Difference with the ones here in Toronto is their terminated with bettercables company.

Hopefully the connection is much more secure.
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post #175 of 1601 Old 03-27-2018, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by whasaaaab View Post
Hi thanks for replying

What happen to your sub, as nothing to do with the cable, unless:
wife was home alone and the Sub sounded like a bin like a bomb went off . She thought the furnace blew. The Sub after was making loud pulsating sound. My system was completely off.

1) the cable was defective, or = Atlona subwoofer cable. $30 I think can't remember could be a bit more. Their hDMi cables were really good when they came out.
Top End Subwoofer cable; made of High-Purity Oxygen Free Copper (OFC) conductor, it has the characteristics of high conductivity, low signal loss and degradation, low electric resistance and good signal transmission. High-Density double shielded design will reduce interference to a minimum and will provide a clear, “deep” bass experience. This cable is featured with 24K Gold Plated RCA connectors to ensure a perfect connection

Specs:
2M single RCA male to single RCA male
RCA male to dual RCA male adapter included
24k Gold Plated connectors
High-Purity Oxygen Free Copper conductor
High-Density double shielding for max rejection of EMI and RFI
ROHS standard rated
CL2 standard rated
Nylon Sleeve offers extra protection against moisture and dust

2) the sub was defective. Paradigm said sub was perfectly fine and no charge to see if anything was wrong. They said it had to be the cable. Either defective or low grade cable. He said to use a better cable like audioquest or kimber kable etc... he mentioned some other ones can't remember.

My current cable I got at cost, just over $100.

You are welcome
But prices do not mean a lot these day, too much Snake Oil out there.
All it matter is a well made cable, with good quality connections.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whasaaaab View Post
I am going to try SVS Soundpath subwoofer cable.

https://www.svsound.com/products/sou...connect-cable#

Specs look great and the reviews are great too. Difference with the ones here in Toronto is their terminated with bettercables company.

Hopefully the connection is much more secure.

Yes those look good, just a no nonsense, well made cable, at a descent price.


That said, this thread is more about Sub/s configuration.
So, I suggest for more options, and opinions on sub cable, to repost here, or a similar thread;
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...ect-cable.html
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...nd-cables.html
Also pay real good attention from Bill Fitzmaurice posts, when it come to speakers wires and cable, this Member know His stuff!!!


Happy searching, and all the best.


Ray

Last edited by darthray; 03-27-2018 at 06:32 PM.
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post #176 of 1601 Old 03-27-2018, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
You are welcome
But prices do not mean a lot these day, too much Snake Oil out there.
All it matter is a well made cable, with good quality connections.




Yes those look good, just a no nonsense, well made cable, at a descent price.


That said, this thread is more about Sub/s configuration.
So, I suggest for more options, and opinions on sub cable, to repost here, or a similar thread;
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...ect-cable.html
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...nd-cables.html
Also pay real good attention from Bill Fitzmaurice posts, when it come to speakers wires and cable, this Member know His stuff!!!


Happy searching, and all the best.


Ray
Thank you for your help very appreciative
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Mike (and I) are not suggesting that you move your center channel up an inch...we are suggesting that you pull it forward so that the front baffle of the speaker is overhanging the edge of the cabinet by about 1". Is that more clear? If not, please let me know where the confusion lies.

I was talking about moving the center channel forward and said the term "up" an inch instead of forward. I get what I need to do with the CC.

Yes, you should try to move your surrounds up. If you can round up a couple adjustable ladders they can work well to test different mounting locations. If not, I would stick with the 2'-3' above seated ear height.

Thank you. I am going to move the surrounds up 2-3 feet above ear level when sitting. Is it suggested to do calibrating or the speaker placement on the recliner reclined back? When we watch movies and TV we usually recline the recliner a bit or all the way back. Should I setup speakers and calibrate the mic with the chair in the reclined mode or just regular mode?

Toe-ing in the mains will be another one of those trial and error things...I would try toe-ing them in as you suggested earlier, FL pointing at the left inner seat and FR pointing at the right inner seat. Sit down in both chairs and put on some 2 channel music (with the AVR in Stereo mode) and listen to see if the vocalist is firmly anchored directly between both speakers. Also listen for soundstage and spaciousness. Then, experiment with more/less extreme toe-in angles until it sounds right to you. Most people seem to enjoy having the mains toed-in so that they cross a foot or two behind the MLP, but...yet again...YMMV.

When you put the AVR into stereo mode and play music, what is the best way to listen to quality music? I have all of the apps like Youtube on my TV that I typically will play it through, but that's really compressed. Is there an alternative that most use to play the best quality uncompressed music? Maybe stick a USB drive into the TV with a high quality file on it? I"m not sure what the latest best uncompressed file is, do you? I will experiment with the toe-ins. By the way, I think considering the room and how we talked about MLP that for the row to work better I'm going to combine the 2 couches together and then designate the most center chair to the TV the MLP. Do you think this is a good idea? Please see my picture of the couches now at the end of the quoted remarks. I think having the chairs essentially as one couch I am going to be able to feel the sub better in all chairs, actually have an MLP that is pretty much center of the TV (barely off center), and then it is more "standard" than my previous placements of the 2 couches.

FWIW, I sit about 14' from my mains which are about 8' apart and I use zero toe-in...sounds great to me!
Please see my responses in bold. I'm going to post a picture at the bottom of this page of the couches pushed together to make "one" couch so MLP and positioning of the center and speakers will be easier. Do you think I will have to change the position of the front height speakers now too? What are they supposed to be in line with? I thought the front towers on each side, which they will be once I move the towers out a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

Alan and Ray have already given you some help, so there won't be much I can add. I am also confused why your doorstops won't work when you pull your CC forward.The doorstops will just be further back from the edge of the speaker than they are now. If pulling the speaker forward an inch causes the doorstops to elevate it too much, just get smaller doorstops.

Part of the reason that I gave setup advice in the Guide, for the front speakers, is because the Audyssey mic doesn't hear the way we do. It hears tiny variations in sounds that we never would. So, if the speakers aren't pointed fairly well, the EQ might create some high-frequency distortion. I'm not saying that it would. I'm just covering all the bases.

So, you can experiment with listening to your speakers, with more toe-in, and then with less, and pick your favorite spot for them. Then, after you calibrate with your new mic stand, if the high frequency sound isn't quite what you want, you can experiment some more. But, no one can look at photos of your room and tell you how to point your speakers. You have to experiment and listen to the results.

* There is a consistent thread running through all of your posts that I want to point out and emphasize. You may believe that there is a perfect way to set things up, so that you won't ever have to mess with any of it again. If only we would look harder at your photos, and offer you better and clearer advice, your audio system would be perfect.

But, it doesn't work that way. Setting up your audio system, and calibrating it, is like cooking a meal. You start with your selected ingredients (your audio system), in your kitchen (your AV room) and then you generally follow a recipe (the Guide). But, in the end, you are the one who has to decide whether you like your steak rare, or medium, or well done. You are the one who decides what vegetables to add and whether you like gravy. And, you are the one who adds the seasoning to satisfy your personal taste. And, your tastes may change over time as you continue to cook.

Audio is exactly like that. What sounds good to Alan, or to Ray, or to me, will probably be a little different. Or maybe very different! Just as if we were preparing and eating a meal. And, your personal preferences will be different, too. You mentioned seeing a lot of YMMV in the Guide, and you just saw it again in Alan's post. That's because audio is an entertainment hobby. And, you are the one who has to be entertained.

The only way you will discover what you like best is to experiment, and then to listen. So, generally follow the recipe, but understand that I named it a Guide for a reason. It only guides you. It doesn't guarantee what will work best, in your room, for your preferences. No one but you can ultimately know that.

Regards,
Mike
I understand it won't ever be perfect and I will stop striving for perfection on this stuff. I just want to set it up the best that I can for my parents and then just leave it alone. Please let me know what you think about moving the couches together as I mentioned to Alan above. I think this might solve a lot of the problems then I can have the MLP pretty much right in the center like a normal couch. I am going to move the towers out about even with the top front height speakers as well as move the surrounds up 2-3 feet above sitting ear height. Also, please see my post above about to recline or not to recline for calibration and for speaker placement. Most of the time about 90% of the time the chairs are reclined when watching movies in here. Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
+1






For the toe in/out.


The way I do mine is with music on stereo (no center and surrounds On).
I start with the speakers pointing out directly toward the back of the room.
Then start playing with the toe in, and keep doing so until the main singer voice is dead center, and the rest of the band still have a nice sound stage.
If going too much in, your sound stage will collapse (then just back off on the toe in), just a matter of trying a lot of different sound track, until all sound good, Just a matter of tries and errors

Thank you for this. It is very helpful and makes it really clear on what I need to do for toe in.


For center angle.
Your door stoppers should work just fine, move your Center forward, until about 1 inch stick out of the shelf it is sitting on and readjust the door stopper until everything fall into place.
I have a descent size Center that it is also curve (picture can be seen on my Theater page in my Signature).
Here's some instructions to angle the Center;

-First, go get yourself a cheap laserpointer, a flat one if possible.
-Then put-it on top of one of your main (does not matter which one, since they are both the same height).
-Point at your listening area.
-Put a piece of tape to mark the position.
-measure with a ruler the distance from the top of the speaker to the center of the tweeter.
-Go back to your piece of tape at your listening area and subtract that distance going down.
-Put a new piece of tape (it will be call, piece of tape #2) and remove the first one.


-Now do the same for the center speaker with a little difference.
-First measure the distance from the top of the center speaker to the center of the tweeter.
-Go back to your main listening area.
-Remember piece of tape #2
-now take the distance from the top of your center to the center of tweeter and go up from the piece of tape #2 to that distance.
-put piece of tape #3 , and piece of tape #2 can be remove if you like, since it was the distance of your mains tweeter.


-put the laser pointer on top of your center
-adjust angle until the light hit that piece of tape (#3 ).


Now you're done, all tweeters should hit the main listening position at the same height(for the main listening position)."


Also, Make sure your center speaker is sticking out of the cabinet by about an inch.
Sound reflection from the edge of a cabinet can play havoc on your sound.


Then, re-run a full calibration, for all speakers and sub.
The result will be different.

Very detailed write up. Also, as mentioned to Mike and Alan I think moving the couches together and then having the walkway at the very right might be beneficial for the CC and MLP, don't you think? If I leave the couches apart with the center walkway it makes it tricky because then I would have to severely angle everything like the center and towers to the MLP that is way off center. Now with the couches in it is barely off axis from the center channel so I can just move it a bit to the left, right? I'm going to post a picture of the couches together at the bottom. I am also trying to figure out if I need to calibrate with the chairs reclined or not reclined and same for the speakers on the wall. Whether to place them with the chairs reclined or just standing up right. We typically recline the chairs but occasionally I will not recline it.. 90% of the time they are reclined so that is another factor I didn't consider before.


I know, at this point, You might feel frustrated.
In my line of work, frustration could result in death/or serious injuries, so we are reminded daily ,if frustration happen.
Stop and take a breather, to take some time to think.
We call it "Stop and Think".


Just have fun while doing all these experiment, after all, it is only a Hobby, and the longer it take to solve the puzzle.
The more, You will appreciate the result.

Thanks for this.. this can definitely be frustrating but I took a couple of days break and that's why I'm just now responding. Please try to help with the things mentioned above so I can start drilling more holes in the wall and use the new mic stand I just got. Also would have the surrounds a little bit to the side but in back a bit be okay as well? I might need to do that to clear that far side walk way so no one is hitting their head walking by now. That's when I go to move them up 2-3 feet above ear height when sitting. Also, having the couch in together will help the sub hit all 4 seats better as well so that would be a win/win to feel the tactile response. Anyways just let me know what you think. Thanks


Ray
Please see above bolded comments. Here is the picture of the couches (not I have not moved the surrounds, front towers or the Center channel yet.

Thanks everyone



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post #178 of 1601 Old 03-28-2018, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Please see my responses in bold. I'm going to post a picture at the bottom of this page of the couches pushed together to make "one" couch so MLP and positioning of the center and speakers will be easier. Do you think I will have to change the position of the front height speakers now too? What are they supposed to be in line with? I thought the front towers on each side, which they will be once I move the towers out a bit.



I understand it won't ever be perfect and I will stop striving for perfection on this stuff. I just want to set it up the best that I can for my parents and then just leave it alone. Please let me know what you think about moving the couches together as I mentioned to Alan above. I think this might solve a lot of the problems then I can have the MLP pretty much right in the center like a normal couch. I am going to move the towers out about even with the top front height speakers as well as move the surrounds up 2-3 feet above sitting ear height. Also, please see my post above about to recline or not to recline for calibration and for speaker placement. Most of the time about 90% of the time the chairs are reclined when watching movies in here. Thanks



Please see above bolded comments. Here is the picture of the couches (not I have not moved the surrounds, front towers or the Center channel yet.

Thanks everyone
Hi,

You may get some different opinions on some of this, but here are mine, FWIW. First, I like the fact that you moved the couches together and have a main listening position directly in-line with the CC. You may lose just a little tactile response from your sub, now that you are a little further away, but I think you will gain something in overall movie/music enjoyment. And, it gets the end chairs further away from the walls and the surround speakers. Everything is a trade-off, but I like this one.

If your seats are going to be reclined 90% of the time for viewing/listening, then I would calibrate with them that way. But, I would still use a blanket over the back of your chair, if I were you. I definitely like separating your front speakers more. That will widen your soundstage, and give you more distinct imaging. And, putting them right under the height speakers will also help.

Instead of going up a lot with the surround speakers, I might go up only about a foot more and try that first. There will be a sweet spot for you, and you will have to experiment to find it. You can go up a lot and then come back down if it's too much. Or, you can go up gradually. I like the gradual approach. And, I don't think you will want to get too high with those surround speakers. But, that's one where you may get different opinions. Just experiment to find out where you think they sound best.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 03-28-2018 at 06:09 PM.
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post #179 of 1601 Old 03-28-2018, 06:27 PM
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Hi,

You may get some different opinions on some of this, but here are mine, FWIW. First, I like the fact that you moved the couches together and have a main listening position directly in-line with the CC. You may lose just a little tactile response from your sub, now that you are a little further away, but I think you will gain something in overall movie/music enjoyment. And, it gets the end chairs further away from the walls and the surround speakers. Everything is a trade-off, but I like this one.

If your seats are going to be reclined 90% of the time for viewing/listening, then I would calibrate with them that way. But, I would still use a blanket over the back of your chair, if I were you. I definitely like separating your front speakers more. That will widen your soundstage, and give you more distinct imaging. And, putting them right under the height speakers will also help.

Instead of going up a lot with the surround speakers, I might go up only about a foot more and try that first. There will be a sweet spot for you, and you will have to experiment to find it. You can go up a lot and then come back down if it's too much. Or, you can go up gradually. I like the gradual approach. And, I don't think you will want to get too high with those surround speakers. But, that's one where you may get different opinions. Just experiment to find out where you think they sound best.

Regards,
Mike

+1 on the whole post, just highlighted some important point
Since You beat me, about getting the two main further apart

Quote:
Originally Posted by iStorm View Post
Please see my responses in bold. I'm going to post a picture at the bottom of this page of the couches pushed together to make "one" couch so MLP and positioning of the center and speakers will be easier. Do you think I will have to change the position of the front height speakers now too? What are they supposed to be in line with? I thought the front towers on each side, which they will be once I move the towers out a bit.



I understand it won't ever be perfect and I will stop striving for perfection on this stuff. I just want to set it up the best that I can for my parents and then just leave it alone. Please let me know what you think about moving the couches together as I mentioned to Alan above. I think this might solve a lot of the problems then I can have the MLP pretty much right in the center like a normal couch. I am going to move the towers out about even with the top front height speakers as well as move the surrounds up 2-3 feet above sitting ear height. Also, please see my post above about to recline or not to recline for calibration and for speaker placement. Most of the time about 90% of the time the chairs are reclined when watching movies in here. Thanks



Please see above bolded comments. Here is the picture of the couches (not I have not moved the surrounds, front towers or the Center channel yet.

Thanks everyone



Like the symmetry of the couch with your front stage, and surrounds


The one thing I was not too keen about, was also like Mike said, I do find your main too close together.
Putting them further apart, will definitely help with your front stage (sounding wider and not from the center of the room).
And from the picture, they look like way too much, toe in. This is killing the front stage.


Center look good

And also like Mike said, your surrounds only need to go up a little, and even then, might sound good where they are. Try them for a little while, then decide if you want to play with height.


Ray
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post #180 of 1601 Old 03-28-2018, 06:41 PM
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i can't see those sides sounding good for the end people.

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