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post #1801 of 1871 Old 02-14-2020, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
The blanket is not needed in this case. Only for "reflective" type materials (leather, vinyl, etc.).

Correct. These early reflections can sometimes confuse Audyssey and result in a "too bright" calibration.
Maybe that's why I am so happy with my calibration. I have a fair amount of high frequency hearing loss and don't wear my hearing aids around the house. I don't use a blanket over the back of my leather recliner. Reference sounds great with both movies and music.
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post #1802 of 1871 Old 02-14-2020, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
The blanket is not needed in this case. Only for "reflective" type materials (leather, vinyl, etc.).




Correct. These early reflections can sometimes confuse Audyssey and result in a "too bright" calibration.
Thanks, and it seems like it might be good advice even for cloth fabrics depending on how tightly woven and of what material they're made from.
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post #1803 of 1871 Old 02-14-2020, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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I've seen this blanket advice before and I'm curious as to why. If your MLP seat is made of cloth or some similar fabric is it still a recommendation? Is the blanket used to absorb sound waves that might reflect back to the mic?

Hi,

I wouldn't like to make a blanket statement about this (sorry, I couldn't resist), but in some cases you might still want to use something absorbent on top of a cloth fabric chair or couch. The issue isn't whether the fabric is leather, or vinyl, or cloth, so much as whether it has a smooth or hard finish.

A smooth, or slick, cloth finish could reflect very high-frequencies into the Audyssey mic just as easily as the harder finish of a leather couch could. If in any doubt, I would err on the side of caution, and use an absorbent blanket on a smooth-finish cloth seat.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #1804 of 1871 Old 02-14-2020, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I wouldn't like to make a blanket statement about this (sorry, I couldn't resist), but in some cases you might still want to use something absorbent on top of a cloth fabric chair or couch. The issue isn't whether the fabric is leather, or vinyl, or cloth, so much as whether it has a smooth or hard finish.

A smooth, or slick, cloth finish could reflect very high-frequencies into the Audyssey mic just as easily as the harder finish of a leather couch could. If in any doubt, I would err on the side of caution, and use an absorbent blanket on a smooth-finish cloth seat.

Regards,
Mike
Yes, that makes very good sense.
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post #1805 of 1871 Old 02-14-2020, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I wouldn't like to make a blanket statement about this (sorry, I couldn't resist), but in some cases you might still want to use something absorbent on top of a cloth fabric chair or couch. The issue isn't whether the fabric is leather, or vinyl, or cloth, so much as whether it has a smooth or hard finish.

A smooth, or slick, cloth finish could reflect very high-frequencies into the Audyssey mic just as easily as the harder finish of a leather couch could. If in any doubt, I would err on the side of caution, and use an absorbent blanket on a smooth-finish cloth seat.

Regards,
Mike
Hey Mike, I wanted to share some pics from the Florida Audio Expo I attended. The paradigm Persona demo completely stole the show for me. Absolutely breathtaking! Have you heard the new Polk L800's yet? I'm dying to hear them.

Warm Regards,

Dustin
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post #1806 of 1871 Old 02-14-2020, 04:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Politicking View Post
Hey Mike, I wanted to share some pics from the Florida Audio Expo I attended. The paradigm Persona demo completely stole the show for me. Absolutely breathtaking! Have you heard the new Polk L800's yet? I'm dying to hear them.

Warm Regards,

Dustin

Hi Dustin,

Thanks for sharing the pictures! That sounds like a very cool experience. Beautiful looking speakers and high-end equipment. What's not to like?

I have always liked the sound quality of Paradigm speakers. I haven't heard the Persona series, but I'm sure they are excellent! I also haven't heard those Polk speakers, but I don't audition speakers as much as I used to. I know we aren't ever supposed to be entirely satisfied with our audio systems, but I really am.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #1807 of 1871 Old 02-14-2020, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
I've seen this blanket advice before and I'm curious as to why. If your MLP seat is made of cloth or some similar fabric is it still a recommendation? Is the blanket used to absorb sound waves that might reflect back to the mic?

Hi,

I wouldn't like to make a blanket statement about this (sorry, I couldn't resist), but in some cases you might still want to use something absorbent on top of a cloth fabric chair or couch. The issue isn't whether the fabric is leather, or vinyl, or cloth, so much as whether it has a smooth or hard finish.

A smooth, or slick, cloth finish could reflect very high-frequencies into the Audyssey mic just as easily as the harder finish of a leather couch could. If in any doubt, I would err on the side of caution, and use an absorbent blanket on a smooth-finish cloth seat.

Regards,
Mike
Mike,
Nice reflection on this matter
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post #1808 of 1871 Old 02-14-2020, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Dustin,

Thanks for sharing the pictures! That sounds like a very cool experience. Beautiful looking speakers and high-end equipment. What's not to like?

I have always liked the sound quality of Paradigm speakers. I haven't heard the Persona series, but I'm sure they are excellent! I also haven't heard those Polk speakers, but I don't audition speakers as much as I used to. I know we aren't ever supposed to be entirely satisfied with our audio systems, but I really am.

Regards,
Mike
For damn good reason! You have a killer system many can only dream of. Modesty aside in this case.
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post #1809 of 1871 Old 02-14-2020, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Yup!

Also, a mic boom stand is recommended over a tripod. With the tripod legs directly contacting the seating, sometimes unwanted vibrations can be transferred to the mic causing a not-so-good calibration.
+1

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It was recommended to place a blanket on the seat back when running Audyssey. Is this what it was talking about?


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I also agree with Alan, spend a few bucks and use something like this instead;
https://www.amazon.ca/Stage-Stands-M...s%2C217&sr=8-5
And also one of those;
https://www.amazon.ca/Stage-Camera-D...1736488&sr=8-9

A very cheap investment, that will last a Life time

And for the blanket, it is recommended as mention before. If our sitting arrangement is made of vinyl or leather, since they reflect sound. But not needed, if made of material like mine.


Darth
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post #1810 of 1871 Old 02-15-2020, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
+1



I also agree with Alan, spend a few bucks and use something like this instead;

A very cheap investment, that will last a Life time

And for the blanket, it is recommended as mention before. If our sitting arrangement is made of vinyl or leather, since they reflect sound. But not needed, if made of material like mine.


Darth
+1

I have the exact same two items...
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post #1811 of 1871 Old 02-17-2020, 09:55 PM
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Good evening,
Any consensus around here on what would happen in this scenario?

Question 1:
I run REW and see that below 20hz REW flattens my bass, it cuts 6-8db from 10-20hz across the whole range. Below 14.5hz it doesn't even try to EQ to flat any more, but keeps on with the cutting of 6-7db rather then just leaving the range be.

So my question is this:

For this 15-20hz range has XT 32's 6-8db cut granted me 6-8db of amplifier headroom in that range? Or have I effectively killed my free room gain because the amp can't cover that volume for free? Below 15hz it looks like the range is just cut and the free room gain is gone since XT32 isn't trying to EQ to flat there.

In theory it seems like at least for the 15-20hz range the 6-8db cut in amp power has granted 6-8db in headroom and a more flat response. Thoughts?

Question 2:
Thoughts on not even using XT32 based on my before graph? Note this measurement is at -5MV. It looks like we may have a nice house curve on our hands here. I could use the multi eq app to filter out the subwoofer EQ and just leave the response untouched. Appreciate the expert opinions!
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post #1812 of 1871 Old 02-18-2020, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Good evening,
Any consensus around here on what would happen in this scenario?

Question 1:
I run REW and see that below 20hz REW flattens my bass, it cuts 6-8db from 10-20hz across the whole range. Below 14.5hz it doesn't even try to EQ to flat any more, but keeps on with the cutting of 6-7db rather then just leaving the range be.

So my question is this:

For this 15-20hz range has XT 32's 6-8db cut granted me 6-8db of amplifier headroom in that range? Or have I effectively killed my free room gain because the amp can't cover that volume for free? Below 15hz it looks like the range is just cut and the free room gain is gone since XT32 isn't trying to EQ to flat there.

In theory it seems like at least for the 15-20hz range the 6-8db cut in amp power has granted 6-8db in headroom and a more flat response. Thoughts?

Question 2:
Thoughts on not even using XT32 based on my before graph? Note this measurement is at -5MV. It looks like we may have a nice house curve on our hands here. I could use the multi eq app to filter out the subwoofer EQ and just leave the response untouched. Appreciate the expert opinions!

Hi Matt,

I assume that in Question 1, when you refer to REW cutting SPL, you mean Audyssey. I can't really tell from the legend on the graph, but I also assume that the red line is Audyssey off, and the blue line is Audyssey on. FWIW, the blue line looks smoother to me, irrespective of the lowest frequencies. So, it's likely that you would want to preserve some of that smoothness. And, you may still want to use Audyssey for the other speakers, or for more of the overall FR.

What I see in the red line is room gain combining with the PB16s' port tune to create a really large peak centered at ~17Hz. If that doesn't sound overwhelming to you, then there is another experiment you might try. Try setting your PB16's to the Standard 20Hz mode, prior to running Audyssey. Then, after running Audyssey, set them back to the Extended 16Hz mode.

Doing it that way will prevent Audyssey from EQing-out as much of your room gain. But, it should still enable you to achieve something very close to the smoother blue line, which I assumed was Audyssey on. I think it's too soon to conclude that you should leave Audyssey off entirely. Instead, let's try gaming it a little. I will be very interested in your before-and-after measurements, if you try this approach.

As always, if you want to understand how much actual headroom you have, you would do compression tests with and without Audyssey. The approach I have suggested trying should give you the most headroom post-Audyssey.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #1813 of 1871 Old 02-18-2020, 07:17 AM
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Hi Matt,

I assume that in Question 1, when you refer to REW cutting SPL, you mean Audyssey. I can't really tell from the legend on the graph, but I also assume that the red line is Audyssey off, and the blue line is Audyssey on. FWIW, the blue line looks smoother to me, irrespective of the lowest frequencies. So, it's likely that you would want to preserve some of that smoothness. And, you may still want to use Audyssey for the other speakers, or for more of the overall FR.

What I see in the red line is room gain combining with the PB16s' port tune to create a really large peak centered at ~17Hz. If that doesn't sound overwhelming to you, then there is another experiment you might try. Try setting your PB16's to the Standard 20Hz mode, prior to running Audyssey. Then, after running Audyssey, set them back to the Extended 16Hz mode.

Doing it that way will prevent Audyssey from EQing-out as much of your room gain. But, it should still enable you to achieve something very close to the smoother blue line, which I assumed was Audyssey on. I think it's too soon to conclude that you should leave Audyssey off entirely. Instead, let's try gaming it a little. I will be very interested in your before-and-after measurements, if you try this approach.

As always, if you want to understand how much actual headroom you have, you would do compression tests with and without Audyssey. The approach I have suggested trying should give you the most headroom post-Audyssey.

Regards,
Mike
Hi Mike,

Great advice! Your assumptions were correct BTW!

@Matt Fowler ,
One more point to consider. With Aud off your sub(s) roll off fairly quickly at 75-Hz and are down by -10 dBs at 100Hz. With Aud On the plot remains pretty consistent out to 100-hz/110-hz. This steep drop off in output may be where audyssey repurposed the headroom regained in the 15-20-hz range.

On the flip side. If you do wish to try Aud Off. You will need to fill in that gap at 75-100-Hz with your Mains. They will need to be able to output significant SPL at these frequencies and you would want to design your crossover setting to maximize this early bass transition from subs to mains. I'm thinking setting the Mains to 60-hz crossover if they can do that. If not 80-Hz might work in a pinch.

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post #1814 of 1871 Old 02-18-2020, 07:37 AM
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Hi Mike,

Great advice! Your assumptions were correct BTW!

@Matt Fowler,
One more point to consider. With Aud off your sub(s) roll off fairly quickly at 75-Hz and are down by -10 dBs at 100Hz. With Aud On the plot remains pretty consistent out to 100-hz/110-hz. This steep drop off in output may be where audyssey repurposed the headroom regained in the 15-20-hz range.
Hi Adam,

Good points about the roll off, with Audyssey set to Off. And personally prefer the Blue line, assuming Audyssey XT32 is set to On. Since it offer a flatter response, and regain some of those frequencies in the chest slam region. I am not sure if the difference can be accounted for, since the XT32 has so many filters to play with. Compare to the previous version of the Audyssey Multi-EQ.

P.S. I see that Adam added something to his post, not quoted on this one (posting at the same time);
"On the flip side. If you do wish to try Aud Off. You will need to fill in that gap at 75-100-Hz with your Mains. They will need to be able to output significant SPL at these frequencies and you would want to design your crossover setting to maximize this early bass transition from subs to mains. I'm thinking setting the Mains to 60-hz crossover if they can do that. If not 80-Hz might work in a pinch."

And very much agree, it is a solid point to regain some of those mid bass frequencies.


Darth

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post #1815 of 1871 Old 02-18-2020, 11:01 AM
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Hi Matt,

I assume that in Question 1, when you refer to REW cutting SPL, you mean Audyssey. I can't really tell from the legend on the graph, but I also assume that the red line is Audyssey off, and the blue line is Audyssey on. FWIW, the blue line looks smoother to me, irrespective of the lowest frequencies. So, it's likely that you would want to preserve some of that smoothness. And, you may still want to use Audyssey for the other speakers, or for more of the overall FR.

What I see in the red line is room gain combining with the PB16s' port tune to create a really large peak centered at ~17Hz. If that doesn't sound overwhelming to you, then there is another experiment you might try. Try setting your PB16's to the Standard 20Hz mode, prior to running Audyssey. Then, after running Audyssey, set them back to the Extended 16Hz mode.

Doing it that way will prevent Audyssey from EQing-out as much of your room gain. But, it should still enable you to achieve something very close to the smoother blue line, which I assumed was Audyssey on. I think it's too soon to conclude that you should leave Audyssey off entirely. Instead, let's try gaming it a little. I will be very interested in your before-and-after measurements, if you try this approach.

As always, if you want to understand how much actual headroom you have, you would do compression tests with and without Audyssey. The approach I have suggested trying should give you the most headroom post-Audyssey.

Regards,
Mike
First of all thanks for all the feedback. Let me explain how I arrived at this point and what I've done.

1. Mike had previously suggested I try the calibrate in standard mode then swap to extended to return my room gain to me so I did. I tested a movie and the opening credits of a movie scared the crap out of me because there was so much more sub 20hz output. It was however most likely too much house shake given the context. So this got me wondering about headroom and that led to my original post.

2. This got me looking at my pre audyssey graph and thinking I could manual EQ it slightly and maybe it would be to my taste. I also know what my sweeps look like post implementing cascading crossovers at 80-90hz and they actually roll things off similarly to my pre audy 70hz plus response, not exact but roughly similar. So maybe I don't even need cascading crossovers with this rolloff?

3.So at this point I finally decided to try my hand at manual EQ with my mini dsp 2x4 hd. I did a 24db crossover at 10hz that reduced volume between 10-12hz (my understanding is that this output is not worth reproducing with the PB16s and I'm better off saving headroom for mid to high teens, Mike can correct me if I have it wrong and I should undo this tweak.)

4.I did a -2db PEQ at 17hz (my Rew sweeps are at -12dbfs, my understanding is that a -10.2 dbfs signal correlates to 115db lfe). I BEQ religiously at this point, I know that with BEQ the peaks are usually around -15dbfs without considering bass management. So most peaks in a BEQ are 110db peaks not considering bass management. This leads me to believe I have headroom in the range if I run fairly hot and apply the PEQ cut.

5.I should note that I AM still running XT32. I want to be sure to run it to get distances and levels and also EQ some of my speakers at only 300hz'ish and lower, I don't really have many peaks in my room and I don't want to boost dips too much with EQ. Without EQ things sound great as is on the speaker front. So now I'm just using the app to filter the sub EQ all the way down to the lowest value of 20hz, since I ran the calibration with the standard port mode trick it shouldn't be killing my room gain below 20.

5. As for the 75-100hz part, I use an 80hz crossover. Since I've always used cascading crossovers and I run hot I think my volume there should be fine based on what I'm used to. I did some comparison graphs in another graph to show how when you run hot the volume at the crossover point can be VERY loud if you don't use cascading crossovers. I may try pulling up the 55-70hz dip a bit with the 2x4hd as part of my house curve. I also may pull it up for a music config, but I mostly am HT/Games.

6. I've only run a few tests and haven't done any comparison graphs yet, I'll do that in REW but it may be a few days before I have time for it. Note that I use port chuff as my backing off point on the volume dial.

7. Test one (Assume all tests use BEQ) I play the opening of IT, at like 4 minutes in or so there is a freaking ton of ULF when the kid goes into the basement. At the same master volume/trim setting (-4MV/10db hot with DEQ on) with Audy enabled I got port chuffing, with my manual EQ (basically untouched response) I got ZERO port chuff. Wow so far so good.

8. Test two Mad Max Fury Road start of chapter 5 around 50 minutes in, with BEQ there is a metric ton of 10-16hz content. I got more chuff this time vs XT32 eq'd version but also tons more ULF in the room, tbh the chuff wasn't noticeable enough to make me prefer the XT32 version.

9. The Dark Knight Rises opening scene once the plane gets highjacked, Massively hot 17-23hz content here, got a tiny bit of chuff but also a massive amount of ULF.

Cliff notes version, I use XT32 and use the app to filter out all the EQ, keep my distance and level settings, I might be able to do away with cascading crossovers because my pre eq room response looks somewhat similar to the CC rolloff, I didn't lose any headroom (subjectively determined by port chuff) calibrating with standard port and swapping to extended mode after applying a -2db PEQ at 17hz.

Phew, sorry for the wall of text, hopefully this was interesting to someone. I'll check back with REW graphs at some point and also try a little boost from 55-70hz.

Final cliff notes I think I'm on to something and that this natural room house curve is fitting for my tastes ANDI didn't lose the headroom I thought I would. In the case of the movie IT, I actually gained headroom. 6k cubic ft room with front stage well treated.

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post #1816 of 1871 Old 02-18-2020, 11:05 AM
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Hi Adam,

Good points about the roll off, with Audyssey set to Off. And personally prefer the Blue line, assuming Audyssey XT32 is set to On. Since it offer a flatter response, and regain some of those frequencies in the chest slam region. I am not sure if the difference can be accounted for, since the XT32 has so many filters to play with. Compare to the previous version of the Audyssey Multi-EQ.

P.S. I see that Adam added something to his post, not quoted on this one (posting at the same time);
"On the flip side. If you do wish to try Aud Off. You will need to fill in that gap at 75-100-Hz with your Mains. They will need to be able to output significant SPL at these frequencies and you would want to design your crossover setting to maximize this early bass transition from subs to mains. I'm thinking setting the Mains to 60-hz crossover if they can do that. If not 80-Hz might work in a pinch."

And very much agree, it is a solid point to regain some of those mid bass frequencies.


Darth
Hi,
Yeah I think my room is very unfriendly to chest slam, across all of my speakers it seems to eat 100-200hz bass alive. I can get chest slam from my crowsons.

Also I think chest slam is mostly a music thing right? If you look at the graphs in the BEQ thread you really NEVER see huge peaks in the chest slam region (60-100), even John Wick movies you are talking like -20-25dbfs peaks in that range. Maybe with bass management it goes alot higher, not sure. My point is it seems like you have to have a movie insanely hot to get much chest slam, either that or my room is just allergic to it. OR you need to play music really loud, which I mostly save for the car. Yeah, I'll be needing hearing aids I'm afraid.

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post #1817 of 1871 Old 02-18-2020, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
Hi Mike,

Great advice! Your assumptions were correct BTW!

@Matt Fowler ,
One more point to consider. With Aud off your sub(s) roll off fairly quickly at 75-Hz and are down by -10 dBs at 100Hz. With Aud On the plot remains pretty consistent out to 100-hz/110-hz. This steep drop off in output may be where audyssey repurposed the headroom regained in the 15-20-hz range.

On the flip side. If you do wish to try Aud Off. You will need to fill in that gap at 75-100-Hz with your Mains. They will need to be able to output significant SPL at these frequencies and you would want to design your crossover setting to maximize this early bass transition from subs to mains. I'm thinking setting the Mains to 60-hz crossover if they can do that. If not 80-Hz might work in a pinch.
The Chane 2.4As can definitely do 60hz, its recommended they do 80, Audy crosses them at 40 before I bump to 80. Maybe I'll try out 60 and see how it sounds. Thanks!
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post #1818 of 1871 Old 02-18-2020, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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^^^

Wow, wall of text is right!

I will just select a few things to comment on. First, I like the house EQ you were doing, and it sounds as if your results were very good.

Second, at -4 MV, DEQ is actually doing very little. If you want to eliminate port chuffing for extreme scenes, I might try turning DEQ off, or dropping down a decibel or so on your subwoofer boost.

Third, I'm not quite sure what you were saying in #4 . With no subwoofer boost, beyond the original Audyssey calibration, the regular channels should have peaks of up to 105dB and the LFE channel should have peaks of up to 115dB, with the right 5.1 movie content, at a master volume of 0.0.

Once you throw DEQ and independent subwoofer boosts into the mix, you need to measure your volume level, with appropriate content, to be sure what your actual peak volume levels are. Remember that those 105/115dB peaks are usually very transient in nature, and are rarely sustained for more than a few seconds.

Fourth, if you want to know how much headroom you have, you can certainly listen for port chuffing if you want to, but doing compression testing will tell you more about what is actually happening at a particular volume level.

Fifth, I'm not really sure that you can determine the desirability of using cascading crossovers by looking at your frequency response. The real purpose of cascading crossovers is to improve the clarity of your sound, especially for the center channel, and especially where someone is using strong subwoofer boosts. This is something that you really need to test with your ears. Measurements may confirm what you hear, but it's difficult to predict what you will hear from the center channel, based on a FR graph.

Sixth, from considerable reading and discussion about the mid-bass phenomenon known as chest punch, I am convinced that our susceptibility to it, and our awareness (or recognition) of it, varies widely among individuals. Several years ago, on the Nearfield Ported MBM for Increased Mid-Bass Tactile Response thread, we talked quite a bit about whether individual responses varied more for physiological (anatomical) reasons, or for neurological reasons.

I think it is likely to be a bit of both, but I lean heavily to the belief that the neurological aspect (the way our brains are wired) may be the more important of the two. For instance, I notice light chest punch sensations at volume levels of only about 75dB, where some people might require 90-100dB, or more. I think that, just as with our other senses, our neurological wiring is an important factor in our individual reactions to sensations. It's possible that you just aren't very susceptible to the chest punch sensation.

Regards,
Mike

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post #1819 of 1871 Old 02-18-2020, 11:55 AM
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Hi,
Hi Matt,

I cut the quote short to save space. But I wanted to make a recommendation about checking how your Bass to Mains crossover is working. You have an SPL meter I assume? If not you can use your phone. There are Phone SPL meter apps out there for free.

Set your MV to a comfortable level. Not high and not too low. Experiment with a low volume first sweep. Then set to a good level that will allow you to measure the SLP as the sweep goes up in Frequency and makes the transition from Subs to Mains. There may be a range in the middle (60Hz to 100 Hz) where you might detect a drop in Sound output. If it plays from 20-hz to 120-hz without any volume loss your good to go and your crossovers are set right. If you detect a drop in output/volume remember what FR it started to drop. Then go into the AVR and drop the Main Speakers crossover to below this dropout zone.

One more thing that came to mind. If you are using Cascading Crossovers, check where the Sub is set to rolloff. You might need to increase this value if the above does not fix the drop out. That is if you even hear one.

Here is a Youtube Video Sweep from 1hz to 100hz. Be very careful with volume first time pass. Nudge it up a little at a time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=ukQ6OSs3dWo


Here is another:
https://youtu.be/Su-pYZYAljM?list=RDukQ6OSs3dWo

I hope this helps. If you have already done this type of test. The disregard this post!

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post #1820 of 1871 Old 02-18-2020, 12:01 PM
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^^^

Wow, wall of text is right!

I will just select a few things to comment on. First, I like the house EQ you were doing, and it sounds as if your results were very good.

Second, at -4 MV, DEQ is actually doing very little. If you want to eliminate port chuffing for extreme scenes, I might try turning DEQ off, or dropping down a decibel or so on your subwoofer boost.

Third, I'm not quite sure what you were saying in #4 . With no subwoofer boost, beyond the original Audyssey calibration, the regular channels should have peaks of up to 105dB and the LFE channel should have peaks of up to 115dB, with the right 5.1 movie content, at a master volume of 0.0.

Once you throw DEQ and independent subwoofer boosts into the mix, you need to measure your volume level, with appropriate content, to be sure what your actual peak volume levels are. Remember that those 105/115dB peaks are usually very transient in nature, and are rarely sustained for more than a few seconds.

Fourth, if you want to know how much headroom you have, you can certainly listen for port chuffing if you want to, but doing compression testing will tell you more about what is actually happening at a particular volume level.

Fifth, I'm not really sure that you can determine the desirability of using cascading crossovers by looking at your frequency response. The real purpose of cascading crossovers is to improve the clarity of your sound, especially for the center channel, and especially where someone is using strong subwoofer boosts. This is something that you really need to test with your ears. Measurements may confirm what you hear, but it's difficult to predict what you will hear from the center channel, based on a FR graph.

Sixth, from considerable reading and discussion about the mid-bass phenomenon known as chest punch, I am convinced that our susceptibility to it, and our awareness (or recognition) of it, varies widely among individuals. Several years ago, on the Nearfield Ported MBM for Increased Mid-Bass Tactile Response thread, we talked quite a bit about whether individual responses varied more for physiological (anatomical) reasons, or for neurological reasons.

I think it is likely to be a bit of both, but I lean heavily to the belief that the neurological aspect (the way our brains are wired) may be the more important of the two. For instance, I notice light chest punch sensations at volume levels of only about 75dB, where some people might require 90-100dB, or more. I think that, just as with our other senses, our neurological wiring is an important factor in our individual reactions to sensations. It's possible that you just aren't very susceptible to the chest punch sensation.

Regards,
Mike
In regards to this:

"With no subwoofer boost, beyond the original Audyssey calibration, the regular channels should have peaks of up to 105dB and the LFE channel should have peaks of up to 115dB, with the right 5.1 movie content, at a master volume of 0.0. "

Based on the BEQ charts I believe very few movies have peaks at 115db at reference at a single frequency, but if they do they would show up on the graph as -10dbfs. So when I run a sweep in rew at 12dbfs its like a 113db signal were it in a movie track. That is just one frequency though, a scene could be playing multiple frequencies or employing a bass management scenario where the actual peak is a composite of frequencies (say its a blend of 15-18hz content) that combines to goes way over 115db. Maybe I have this concept horribly wrong.

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post #1821 of 1871 Old 02-18-2020, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
Hi Matt,

I cut the quote short to save space. But I wanted to make a recommendation about checking how your Bass to Mains crossover is working. You have an SPL meter I assume? If not you can use your phone. There are Phone SPL meter apps out there for free.

Set your MV to a comfortable level. Not high and not too low. Experiment with a low volume first sweep. Then set to a good level that will allow you to measure the SLP as the sweep goes up in Frequency and makes the transition from Subs to Mains. There may be a range in the middle (60Hz to 100 Hz) where you might detect a drop in Sound output. If it plays from 20-hz to 120-hz without any volume loss your good to go and your crossovers are set right. If you detect a drop in output/volume remember what FR it started to drop. Then go into the AVR and drop the Main Speakers crossover to below this dropout zone.

One more thing that came to mind. If you are using Cascading Crossovers, check where the Sub is set to rolloff. You might need to increase this value if the above does not fix the drop out. That is if you even hear one.

Here is a Youtube Video Sweep from 1hz to 100hz. Be very careful with volume first time pass. Nudge it up a little at a time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=ukQ6OSs3dWo


Here is another:
https://youtu.be/Su-pYZYAljM?list=RDukQ6OSs3dWo

I hope this helps. If you have already done this type of test. The disregard this post!
Its been something I've been meaning to delve into but haven't gotten around to yet. Enough other things to ODC over. Its probably up next.
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post #1822 of 1871 Old 02-18-2020, 12:49 PM - Thread Starter
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In regards to this:

"With no subwoofer boost, beyond the original Audyssey calibration, the regular channels should have peaks of up to 105dB and the LFE channel should have peaks of up to 115dB, with the right 5.1 movie content, at a master volume of 0.0. "

Based on the BEQ charts I believe very few movies have peaks at 115db at reference at a single frequency, but if they do they would show up on the graph as -10dbfs. So when I run a sweep in rew at 12dbfs its like a 113db signal were it in a movie track. That is just one frequency though, a scene could be playing multiple frequencies or employing a bass management scenario where the actual peak is a composite of frequencies (say its a blend of 15-18hz content) that combines to goes way over 115db. Maybe I have this concept horribly wrong.

You don't have the concept horribly wrong, but the engineer in you is trying to turn a general principle into a physical actuality. Dolby/THX Reference was designed as a way to set a safe volume level for movies, and as a way to establish uniformity in the movie-making and movie-watching industry. 85dB was established as a normative average volume level for a 5.1 movie, with dynamic peaks allowed of up to 105dB for the regular channels, and 115dB for the LFE channel.

Those commercial cinema standards were then applied to home theater. Where an HT system has been calibrated to Reference, via something like Audyssey, the system should be able to hit peaks of approximately 105dB for the regular channels, and 115dB for the LFE channel, at a master volume level of 0.0. (That's with no subwoofer boost added--just the calibrated trim levels.)

The numbers listed above are approximate because all measurement microphones, including the Audyssey mics used for calibration, have some error factor. With the Audyssey mics, the error factor is +/-3dB, and with your UMIK-1, it is +/- 1.5dB.

But, that's just the audio system, what about the actual movies? Nothing says that a movie has to be recorded at an average volume of 85dB, and most movies aren't. Film mixers don't actually pay any attention to average volume levels for cinematic releases (they have to for some TV movies and programs, depending on the network).

So, the "average" volume levels can be higher or lower than 85dB. And, they may have many peaks, or very few. They may reach 105/115dB repeatedly, or never at all. And, that's not just the difference between a blockbuster and a light romantic comedy. The volume differences apply to action movies and blockbusters, too. They just aren't supposed to exceed peak volumes of 105/115dB. (Incidentally, all of the above is covered in Section II-A of the Guide.)

If you want to know how loud a particular movie is, with your system, in your room, then you need to measure it. Anything else, including BEQ graphs, may not be reliable for your calibrated system, at your volume levels and with your subwoofer boosts. That's what I mean when I say that you can't go from a general principle, such as Dolby/THX Reference, to a physical actuality for any given movie. The industry established some maximum safe listening and calibration standards, but the actuality varies from room-to-room, and from movie-to-movie.

One additional way that the actuality varies is with respect to the way that we perceive volume in smaller rooms. According to SMPTE RP 200, in rooms below 20,000^3 (which would include all HT's) we perceive loudness differently than we do in a commercial cinema. That's due to room boundary effects for all frequencies. (Think of the difference between singing in the shower, versus in a very large room.) For instance, in your 6,000^3 room, a master volume level of -5 MV would correspond to Reference (0.0 MV) in a commercial cinema.

I remember that you wanted to find a formula to tell you how loudly you should listen, and how much subwoofer boost you should use. In the end though, I think that it has to be a personal decision. I know that when I first got my current subwoofers, I pushed them pretty hard to find out what their ceiling was. But, I gave out before they did.

In the last couple of years, I have been very content just to listen at whatever volume level seems comfortable, or pleasant, or exciting, depending on my mood at that particular time, without caring as much about the actual volume level, or the subwoofer boost. You may or may not reach a similar equilibrium point in time, after you have experimented as much as you care to.

But, in my case, I found that it was a more relaxed way to enjoy my audio, and I think that I am protecting my hearing a little more, now that I am not trying to push the envelope quite as much.

I hope that this discussion helps to clarify things a little more, because I am pretty tapped-out now.

Regards,
Mike

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post #1823 of 1871 Old 02-18-2020, 01:10 PM
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^^^^^@mthomas47;^^^^^

You may not know it, but you seem to be constantly writing edits and newish content for your Guide! That was an excellent discussion about what “Reference” means to the home theatre enthusiast. That pencil just keeps getting sharper and sharper.

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post #1824 of 1871 Old 02-18-2020, 04:54 PM
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This quote is edited for the length, to add a comment from this quote

In the last couple of years, I have been very content just to listen at whatever volume level seems comfortable, or pleasant, or exciting, depending on my mood at that particular time, without caring as much about the actual volume level, or the subwoofer boost. You may or may not reach a similar equilibrium point in time, after you have experimented as much as you care to.

Regards,
Mike
Hi Matt, @Matt Fowler

This part is exactly how I set my volume level, when listening to a movie from Mike previous post. I just start around -15db after the previews (around -25dB), and slowly increase my volume until it is loud enough for me. Most time it is around -12/-13dB, for most movies and others a recorded on the low side. Require me to increase the level to -8/-9dB.

In my walls threated 1728^3 room, those levels are loud but not deafening


Darth

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Hi Matt, @Matt Fowler

This part is exactly how I set my volume level, when listening to a movie from Mike previous post. I just start around -15db after the previews (around -25dB), and slowly increase my volume until it is loud enough for me. Most time it is around -12/-13dB, for most movies and others a recorded on the low side. Require me to increase the level to -8/-9dB.

In my walls threated 1728^3 room, those levels are loud but not deafening


Darth
Yeah eventually I'll taper things back no doubt. Just for the record do you still feel waves of spl at those volumes? In my room I have to play pretty loud to get the sensation of waves and TR.

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post #1826 of 1871 Old 02-18-2020, 05:33 PM
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Yeah eventually I'll taper things back no doubt. Just for the record do you still feel waves of spl at those volumes? In my room I have to play pretty loud to get the sensation of waves and TR.
Hi Matt,

The answer is not a definitive Yes or No. While I do listen fairly loud, in my room any TR is out of the equation. Since my Theater room is over a concrete floor, with two heavy carpets. For the TR, I rely on a couple TT (Tactile Transducer) under the two main seats;
Shakers - Simple/Cheap Hookup - Visual Guide

And increase my mid bass level using the single band PEQ, on my subs. Since I prefer mid bass for chest slam, and very little TR as my personal preference.


Darth

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post #1827 of 1871 Old 02-18-2020, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^

My friend Darth and I have a little different perspective on this issue of ULF TR (ultra low-frequency tactile response).

I think though, that his perspective is based partly on the fact that, when he turns-up his subwoofers with a lower port tune, things in his walls begin to vibrate, due to sympathetic resonance. I believe that prevents him from really exploring the degree to which he would be able to get sufficient ULF TR, on his concrete floor, with just his subwoofers.

I have said this before, and it is worth repeating here. I can literally make the concrete floor in my strongly-built room feel as if it is rippling with tactile energy, if I really crank my subwoofers with the right movie content. And, that is in a 6,000^3 room. Concrete laid on top of packed earth is very inert, compared to a suspended wood floor. But, with sufficient low-frequency energy, even a room with a concrete floor can come alive with ULF TR.

Other good examples of this can be found on the JTR subwoofer thread. I know of very few owners of low-tuned ported JTR subs who need tactile transducers or BOSS platforms in order to feel sufficient low-frequency energy. Of course, JTR ported subs are known for producing large amounts of ULF TR, as are my PB16's.

I say all of this for those reading along, who are on concrete and who may otherwise feel that the only way they will be able to get good low-bass TR is with TT's or something similar. You can do it well enough, for most preferences, with low-tuned ported subwoofers. But, you do have to crank them.

For instance, I believe that Darth prefers to use only a couple of decibels of subwoofer boost with his low-tuned FV18's. But, if he turns them up more than that, things in his room start to rattle. I might watch the same movie with a slightly lower master volume level than he does, but perhaps with +10dB to +12B of subwoofer boost, compared to what Darth is using.

The key is producing enough low-bass SPL, and particle velocity, to give you the <20Hz TR you want, without picking-up too many extraneous rattles in the process. I am lucky enough to have no problem with that. But, it's important to note that some subs definitely can produce very strong ULF TR, even on concrete, if you really crank them up.

Regards,
Mike

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post #1828 of 1871 Old 02-18-2020, 08:11 PM
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^^^

My friend Darth and I have a little different perspective on this issue of ULF TR (ultra low-frequency tactile response).

I think though, that his perspective is based partly on the fact that, when he turns-up his subwoofers with a lower port tune, things in his walls begin to vibrate, due to sympathetic resonance. I believe that prevents him from really exploring the degree to which he would be able to get sufficient ULF TR, on his concrete floor, with just his subwoofers.

I have said this before, and it is worth repeating here. I can literally make the concrete floor in my strongly-built room feel as if it is rippling with tactile energy, if I really crank my subwoofers with the right movie content. And, that is in a 6,000^3 room. Concrete laid on top of packed earth is very inert, compared to a suspended wood floor. But, with sufficient low-frequency energy, even a room with a concrete floor can come alive with ULF TR.

Other good examples of this can be found on the JTR subwoofer thread. I know of very few owners of low-tuned ported JTR subs who need tactile transducers or BOSS platforms in order to feel sufficient low-frequency energy. Of course, JTR ported subs are known for producing large amounts of ULF TR, as are my PB16's.

I say all of this for those reading along, who are on concrete and who may otherwise feel that the only way they will be able to get good low-bass TR is with TT's or something similar. You can do it well enough, for most preferences, with low-tuned ported subwoofers. But, you do have to crank them.

For instance, I believe that Darth prefers to use only a couple of decibels of subwoofer boost with his low-tuned FV18's. But, if he turns them up more than that, things in his room start to rattle. I might watch the same movie with a slightly lower master volume level than he does, but perhaps with +10dB to +12B of subwoofer boost, compared to what Darth is using.

The key is producing enough low-bass SPL, and particle velocity, to give you the <20Hz TR you want, without picking-up too many extraneous rattles in the process. I am lucky enough to have no problem with that. But, it's important to note that some subs definitely can produce very strong ULF TR, even on concrete, if you really crank them up.

Regards,
Mike

Yeah I have about 250-300 sq foot of drop ceiling and had rattles galore. I bought a big bag of sand. My wife wondered where all her sandwich bags went because the more I've upgraded the more bags I've filled with sand to hold down individual drop ceiling panels.

In my 6k cu ft room I can stand at the back of the room away from the front stage where the subs are at, crank them to the upper range of what I listen at, I am astonished that at 25+ feet away I can feel my pant legs move and sense movement through the air and some mild floor movement (I don't get rippling but I also don't have 4 subs like Mike).

The second row couch, probably 15-20 feet from the front subs get TR such that I could be fooled into thinking my crowsons had been moved to the back row and turned to a low setting. I'm on concrete too so this is amazing stuff to me. Coming from lesser subs theres absolutely no way I felt any TR from the subs alone in that room, certainly not at 25+ feet away. I was shocked. Thanks Mike for pushing me to upgrade, 0 regrets.

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post #1829 of 1871 Old 02-19-2020, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
^^^

My friend Darth and I have a little different perspective on this issue of ULF TR (ultra low-frequency tactile response).

I think though, that his perspective is based partly on the fact that, when he turns-up his subwoofers with a lower port tune, things in his walls begin to vibrate, due to sympathetic resonance. I believe that prevents him from really exploring the degree to which he would be able to get sufficient ULF TR, on his concrete floor, with just his subwoofers.

I have said this before, and it is worth repeating here. I can literally make the concrete floor in my strongly-built room feel as if it is rippling with tactile energy, if I really crank my subwoofers with the right movie content. And, that is in a 6,000^3 room. Concrete laid on top of packed earth is very inert, compared to a suspended wood floor. But, with sufficient low-frequency energy, even a room with a concrete floor can come alive with ULF TR.

Other good examples of this can be found on the JTR subwoofer thread. I know of very few owners of low-tuned ported JTR subs who need tactile transducers or BOSS platforms in order to feel sufficient low-frequency energy. Of course, JTR ported subs are known for producing large amounts of ULF TR, as are my PB16's.

I say all of this for those reading along, who are on concrete and who may otherwise feel that the only way they will be able to get good low-bass TR is with TT's or something similar. You can do it well enough, for most preferences, with low-tuned ported subwoofers. But, you do have to crank them.

For instance, I believe that Darth prefers to use only a couple of decibels of subwoofer boost with his low-tuned FV18's. But, if he turns them up more than that, things in his room start to rattle. I might watch the same movie with a slightly lower master volume level than he does, but perhaps with +10dB to +12B of subwoofer boost, compared to what Darth is using.

The key is producing enough low-bass SPL, and particle velocity, to give you the <20Hz TR you want, without picking-up too many extraneous rattles in the process. I am lucky enough to have no problem with that. But, it's important to note that some subs definitely can produce very strong ULF TR, even on concrete, if you really crank them up.

Regards,
Mike
Hi Mike,

As usual you have perfectly describe our room difference, and some others with very capable subs for the TR response. And showing once again, that no room give the same results for different end users. The reason, experimentations is so important.


Darth

Last edited by darthray; 02-19-2020 at 07:56 AM.
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post #1830 of 1871 Old 02-19-2020, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Yup!



Also, a mic boom stand is recommended over a tripod. With the tripod legs directly contacting the seating, sometimes unwanted vibrations can be transferred to the mic causing a not-so-good calibration.


Took your advice and bought a boom stand. Can someone show me how to attach the Audyssey mic?


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