Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences - Page 69 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2041 of 2095 Old 03-24-2020, 06:07 AM
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Personally, I think that your enthusiasm is infectious, although perhaps I shouldn't use the word "infectious" right now.
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post #2042 of 2095 Old 03-24-2020, 08:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HYPURR DBL NKL View Post
Mike, late to the party here, haven't been on in a long while. I read some but not all of the posts. A couple things, well three actually, I want to say. First, thanks a lot, now that you've made the guide better, I have to go read it, aaagain. 🤪

Second, my system only sounds as good as it does, thanks to you, no seriously, I mean it. Over the years I have, bent your ears, almost to the point of them falling off and you always helped me. You remind me of my Navy mentor (God rest his soul). When I would ask a question, he would always ask me if I looked it up first, to which my answer was usually nope, and his reply was a pointing finger to leave and go research in the manuals and various publications. He was teaching me how to fish without me knowing it, and he made me a better sailor because of it. Your guide is my manual sir, so thank you.

Third, your patience/compassion is commendable sir. You never seem to tire of answering the millions of questions asked of you, and you never treat the asking person as stupid and you never come off as condescending, at least I don't think so.

So I guess I just want to thank you again, you're contributions here are immeasurable. So thank you sir.

Hi Phil,

It's nice to hear from you, and I really appreciate your post! You are very welcome for any help that the Guide, and my PM's, have given you. It's very gratifying to know that I have been helpful. Your post makes it feel all the more worthwhile to me.

It's actually a little hard for me to know how to respond to this, because I can't ever see myself as others see me. It's pretty easy for me to not treat others in a condescending manner. I know how complicated and intimidating some of the concepts we talk about can seem, and I know how stupid I feel sometimes, when I suddenly figure-out something that I didn't understand before. I would feel pretty bad if I ever made someone else feel stupid about any of this. We are all still learning!

The patience part is becoming a little harder for me though, as we have recently discussed on the thread. It's partly a matter of sheer repetition. Extended repetition, in anything, eventually becomes boring. And, it's partly because I can't always tell that the information or advice that I am sharing is truly being understood or appreciated. Knowing that it really is helping, and that people really do appreciate it, makes it easier to keep doing it. So, thanks again for your nice post!

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #2043 of 2095 Old 03-24-2020, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Phil,

It's nice to hear from you, and I really appreciate your post! You are very welcome for any help that the Guide, and my PM's, have given you. It's very gratifying to know that I have been helpful. Your post makes it feel all the more worthwhile to me.

It's actually a little hard for me to know how to respond to this, because I can't ever see myself as others see me. It's pretty easy for me to not treat others in a condescending manner. I know how complicated and intimidating some of the concepts we talk about can seem, and I know how stupid I feel sometimes, when I suddenly figure-out something that I didn't understand before. I would feel pretty bad if I ever made someone else feel stupid about any of this. We are all still learning!

The patience part is becoming a little harder for me though, as we have recently discussed on the thread. It's partly a matter of sheer repetition. Extended repetition, in anything, eventually becomes boring. And, it's partly because I can't always tell that the information or advice that I am sharing is truly being understood or appreciated. Knowing that it really is helping, and that people really do appreciate it, makes it easier to keep doing it. So, thanks again for your nice post!

Regards,
Mike
It's like you already suggested; people want the quick answer and would rather do a drive by post throw in the dark type post, and hope some respond.

To be fair, I've done that in the past but I think it's more because of retaining (or lack thereof) the large volume of information after one read. I've learned to re-visit and re-read randomly a couple of times, and surprisingly some of the concepts eventually "stick" and I remember what's in there and what's not.

p.s.- I've had days/weeks where I'm just focusing on something like cascading crossovers. Then I start straying into Tone Controls before really dialing in what I was trying to do with CC. Then start tweaking with DEQ on v off etc. Then I forget what I was trying to accomplish and start all over

I set up my new subwoofer last night, and getting ready to re-run XT32 and here we go again...ha. I've been re-reading the guide again this morning

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post #2044 of 2095 Old 03-24-2020, 12:32 PM
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Hi Mike,

There have been times lately that I have started to reply to posts only to just close the tab altogether, reason being that I feel that I am repeating myself and sounding like a broken record. So I can totally understand your point of view and admire your patience and active role in this thread.
I find that setting up subs and correcting the FR between 0-500hz to be the most important thing to get right in a home theater system, It has been my goal for many years in doing this and letting the room dictate the rest of the range after that.

But it ain't easy and you can read as much you want till the cows come home, but until you get a calibrated mic and start measuring you may as well be pissing against the wind. This is where the real work begins and results become audible, also I feel you learn twice as quick this way, we may make tons of mistakes in this journey but all the time learning from them. Then when I come back to your guide on specific subjects more things make sense than before.

I feel my answer for most people is get a calibrated mic if you are serious and usually they are with systems far better than mine and cost so much more. Phase alignment is another topic I tend to notice problems with and usually recommend a MiniDsp, is it a solution for bad sub position No but the relationship with REW and MiniDsp is so good and takes the load off the AVR in terms of sub position, phase and EQ, allowing it to do it's best. But takes patience with a lot of trial and error.

Usually, at a time like this where we are more house bound, I would start tweaking and measuring, but I feel no reason to, My FR to 500hz is pretty good, Cascading Crossover is the Holy Grail for me and essential for DEQ IMO and the reason I still use Audyssey TBH.

I actually don't know what I'm trying to convey in this post, I suppose it's to all the people who are starting off and trying to get an understanding on bass management, my advice in the spare time we have try different things, read Mikes guide carefully even if some parts you don't fully understand you will in time, it's not a race as there is no finish line so take your time and enjoy the challenge.

Anyway, I hope everyone is safe and well, sorry if I have ranted a bit, this is what isolation does to ya Thanks Mike

All the Best

Jim
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Tried cascading crossovers (everything set to 80 Hz) for the second time and just don't like it. Low bass sounded boomy and bloated while male voices lacked weight. Switched things back (80Hz crossover from speakers to sub, 120 Hz LPF for LFE, and sub LPF disabled) and bass is tighter with no boom and male voices are more solid.

Sub is a HSU VTF-2 Mk2 with a Mk4 amp. The Mk4 amp has controls for Q as well as two different EQ settings for use with different port configurations. I use a Q of 0.7, EQ 1, and one of the two ports plugged. Sub is located on the front wall next to my equipment cabinet and about 2 feet from a corner. I don't have any other options for placement due to room configuration and WAF. No real interest in REW. AVR is a Denon 3500 with MultEq XT32. I use Dynamic EQ but not Dynamic Volume.

It was an interesting experiment but just didn't work for me. Oh, well.
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post #2046 of 2095 Old 03-24-2020, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
It's like you already suggested; people want the quick answer and would rather do a drive by post throw in the dark type post, and hope some respond.

To be fair, I've done that in the past but I think it's more because of retaining (or lack thereof) the large volume of information after one read. I've learned to re-visit and re-read randomly a couple of times, and surprisingly some of the concepts eventually "stick" and I remember what's in there and what's not.

p.s.- I've had days/weeks where I'm just focusing on something like cascading crossovers. Then I start straying into Tone Controls before really dialing in what I was trying to do with CC. Then start tweaking with DEQ on v off etc. Then I forget what I was trying to accomplish and start all over

I set up my new subwoofer last night, and getting ready to re-run XT32 and here we go again...ha. I've been re-reading the guide again this morning
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy2Shoes View Post
Hi Mike,

There have been times lately that I have started to reply to posts only to just close the tab altogether, reason being that I feel that I am repeating myself and sounding like a broken record. So I can totally understand your point of view and admire your patience and active role in this thread.
I find that setting up subs and correcting the FR between 0-500hz to be the most important thing to get right in a home theater system, It has been my goal for many years in doing this and letting the room dictate the rest of the range after that.

But it ain't easy and you can read as much you want till the cows come home, but until you get a calibrated mic and start measuring you may as well be pissing against the wind. This is where the real work begins and results become audible, also I feel you learn twice as quick this way, we may make tons of mistakes in this journey but all the time learning from them. Then when I come back to your guide on specific subjects more things make sense than before.

I feel my answer for most people is get a calibrated mic if you are serious and usually they are with systems far better than mine and cost so much more. Phase alignment is another topic I tend to notice problems with and usually recommend a MiniDsp, is it a solution for bad sub position No but the relationship with REW and MiniDsp is so good and takes the load off the AVR in terms of sub position, phase and EQ, allowing it to do it's best. But takes patience with a lot of trial and error.

Usually, at a time like this where we are more house bound, I would start tweaking and measuring, but I feel no reason to, My FR to 500hz is pretty good, Cascading Crossover is the Holy Grail for me and essential for DEQ IMO and the reason I still use Audyssey TBH.

I actually don't know what I'm trying to convey in this post, I suppose it's to all the people who are starting off and trying to get an understanding on bass management, my advice in the spare time we have try different things, read Mikes guide carefully even if some parts you don't fully understand you will in time, it's not a race as there is no finish line so take your time and enjoy the challenge.

Anyway, I hope everyone is safe and well, sorry if I have ranted a bit, this is what isolation does to ya Thanks Mike

All the Best

Jim
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post
Tried cascading crossovers (everything set to 80 Hz) for the second time and just don't like it. Low bass sounded boomy and bloated while male voices lacked weight. Switched things back (80Hz crossover from speakers to sub, 120 Hz LPF for LFE, and sub LPF disabled) and bass is tighter with no boom and male voices are more solid.

Sub is a HSU VTF-2 Mk2 with a Mk4 amp. The Mk4 amp has controls for Q as well as two different EQ settings for use with different port configurations. I use a Q of 0.7, EQ 1, and one of the two ports plugged. Sub is located on the front wall next to my equipment cabinet and about 2 feet from a corner. I don't have any other options for placement due to room configuration and WAF. No real interest in REW. AVR is a Denon 3500 with MultEq XT32. I use Dynamic EQ but not Dynamic Volume.

It was an interesting experiment but just didn't work for me. Oh, well.

Thanks to all three of you for posting, and for the nice comments about the Guide!

I actually think it's pretty cool that three posts in a row represent three different approaches to the same settings: one with cascading crossovers helping either with or without DEQ; another with cascading crossovers specifically helping with DEQ; and, the third with cascading crossovers not helping, period.

I am sometimes surprised when I read posts with one person telling someone else what he can or can't hear (or feel where tactile sensations are concerned), or telling someone else what he should or should not prefer in what he hears (or feels). The most reliably consistent thing I know about audio is the sheer diversity of our listening perceptions and preferences.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 03-24-2020 at 04:46 PM.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy2Shoes View Post
Hi Mike,

There have been times lately that I have started to reply to posts only to just close the tab altogether, reason being that I feel that I am repeating myself and sounding like a broken record. So I can totally understand your point of view and admire your patience and active role in this thread.
I find that setting up subs and correcting the FR between 0-500hz to be the most important thing to get right in a home theater system, It has been my goal for many years in doing this and letting the room dictate the rest of the range after that.

But it ain't easy and you can read as much you want till the cows come home, but until you get a calibrated mic and start measuring you may as well be pissing against the wind. This is where the real work begins and results become audible, also I feel you learn twice as quick this way, we may make tons of mistakes in this journey but all the time learning from them. Then when I come back to your guide on specific subjects more things make sense than before.

I feel my answer for most people is get a calibrated mic if you are serious and usually they are with systems far better than mine and cost so much more. Phase alignment is another topic I tend to notice problems with and usually recommend a MiniDsp, is it a solution for bad sub position No but the relationship with REW and MiniDsp is so good and takes the load off the AVR in terms of sub position, phase and EQ, allowing it to do it's best. But takes patience with a lot of trial and error.

Usually, at a time like this where we are more house bound, I would start tweaking and measuring, but I feel no reason to, My FR to 500hz is pretty good, Cascading Crossover is the Holy Grail for me and essential for DEQ IMO and the reason I still use Audyssey TBH.

I actually don't know what I'm trying to convey in this post, I suppose it's to all the people who are starting off and trying to get an understanding on bass management, my advice in the spare time we have try different things, read Mikes guide carefully even if some parts you don't fully understand you will in time, it's not a race as there is no finish line so take your time and enjoy the challenge.

Anyway, I hope everyone is safe and well, sorry if I have ranted a bit, this is what isolation does to ya Thanks Mike

All the Best

Jim
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Thanks to all three of you for posting, and for the nice comments about the Guide!

I actually think it's pretty cool that three posts in a row represent three different approaches to the same settings: one with cascading crossovers helping either with or without DEQ; another with cascading crossovers specifically helping with DEQ; and, the third with cascading crossovers not helping, period.

I am sometimes surprised when I read posts with one person telling someone else what he can or can't hear (or feel where tactile sensations are concerned), or telling someone else what he should or should not prefer in what he hears (or feels). The most reliably consistent thing I know about audio is the sheer diversity of our listening perceptions and preferences.

Regards,
Mike
Nothing more to add, other than a big +1


Darth
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Thanks to all three of you for posting, and for the nice comments about the Guide!

I actually think it's pretty cool that three posts in a row represent three different approaches to the same settings: one with cascading crossovers helping either with or without DEQ; another with cascading crossovers specifically helping with DEQ; and, the third with cascading crossovers not helping, period.

I am sometimes surprised when I read posts with one person telling someone else what he can or can't hear (or feel where tactile sensations are concerned), or telling someone else what he should or should not prefer in what he hears (or feels). The most reliably consistent thing I know about audio is the sheer diversity of our listening perceptions and preferences.

Regards,
Mike
My room is probably a little different from most. The front wall is where my sub, tv, and LCR speakers sit. The left side wall is floor to ceiling bookshelves and base cabinets. The back wall is floor to ceiling windows and couch. The right wall is .... well there is no right wall. The great room opens into the kitchen and breakfast dining area. The ceiling is cathedral. Surround speakers are mounted high on the walls.
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post #2049 of 2095 Old 03-24-2020, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post
Tried cascading crossovers (everything set to 80 Hz) for the second time and just don't like it. Low bass sounded boomy and bloated while male voices lacked weight. Switched things back (80Hz crossover from speakers to sub, 120 Hz LPF for LFE, and sub LPF disabled) and bass is tighter with no boom and male voices are more solid.

Sub is a HSU VTF-2 Mk2 with a Mk4 amp. The Mk4 amp has controls for Q as well as two different EQ settings for use with different port configurations. I use a Q of 0.7, EQ 1, and one of the two ports plugged. Sub is located on the front wall next to my equipment cabinet and about 2 feet from a corner. I don't have any other options for placement due to room configuration and WAF. No real interest in REW. AVR is a Denon 3500 with MultEq XT32. I use Dynamic EQ but not Dynamic Volume.

It was an interesting experiment but just didn't work for me. Oh, well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post
My room is probably a little different from most. The front wall is where my sub, tv, and LCR speakers sit. The left side wall is floor to ceiling bookshelves and base cabinets. The back wall is floor to ceiling windows and couch. The right wall is .... well there is no right wall. The great room opens into the kitchen and breakfast dining area. The ceiling is cathedral. Surround speakers are mounted high on the walls.
Hi,

Cascading Crossover, is not for everyone
While many do like-it, some like you do not. And nothing wrong with-it, since after all. We all have different taste in sound, and what matter is the end user.

Out of curiosity, since you use DEQ. I have you tried-it, with DEQ set to Off prior of doing a calibration. The reason I ask, I no longer use DEQ. Since it was giving me the same results as yours, for sounding boomy and bloated in the low bass. Than again, no room do respond the same.


Darth

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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Hi,

Cascading Crossover, is not for everyone
While many do like-it, some like you do not. And nothing wrong with-it, since after all. We all have different taste in sound, and what matter is the end user.

Out of curiosity, since you use DEQ. I have you tried-it, with DEQ set to Off prior of doing a calibration. The reason I ask, I no longer use DEQ. Since it was giving me the same results as yours, for sounding boomy and bloated in the low bass. Than again, no room do respond the same.


Darth
Audyssey calibration ignores all settings such as DEQ.

I had DEQ turned on during both cascading crossovers and my normal settings. Bass was bloated with cascading crossovers, not with my normal settings.
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Ok, back to the drawing board. Not sure if I have a dud or need to find a better spot (leaning to this), but tried running Audyssey tonight and I'm getting worse results with PB4000. Just rolls off like crazy at 30hz, and on top of that, I have a bigger than usual (massive) null between 30-40hz. This is based off the App measurement graph for pre calibration but it matches with what I'm hearing.

The sub is in the exact same spot as the HSU. I tried moving aound a couple feet in listening spot and didn't notice any "louder" areas.

The SVS is in Standard mode (all ports open) and volume -10 per default recommendation. I also tried extended mode.

Even before running Audyssey, it didn't quite sound right (no tactility), but I chalked it off as not being calibrated.

Any suggestions? I actually have a second one unopened (long story) which I'm thinking of trying out, but it's so darn heavy! I also don't think I have room/place for dual subs. Does it make sense to squeeze both in front between my cabinet and each tower? Or keep one in my corner and one in the front? If it's bad spot there, thinking it's wasteful.

I'm going to try putting my HSU in front at each potential location, ust to see how it responds. Easier moving the HSU around. If both spots are good, I might just keep both SVS and leave them in front, and ditch the corner.






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post #2052 of 2095 Old 03-25-2020, 04:47 AM
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@pbz06
Hi

The good news is that you don't have a dud and that you have proved even more that this sub location is definitely not ideal. You got a few options to try out, I going to assume you don't have a calibration min like a Umik-1.

Since your HSU is easier to move around I would use this sub to find to best positions.

1)You can try to sub crawl trick, in which you would leave the HSU in the MLP, play some LFE content(pink noise?) and crawl around the room marking each spot where the bass sounds even playing close attention to the sound being too boomy or dropping in sound, Have a google and read a couple of articles on this subject before doing this for any additional tips.

2)A second sub will no doubt help in this situation but I'm still not a fan your first sub position at the moment as it has only one real peak with a lot of nulls, some nulls are okay when going dual as one sub will help out the other so we need to find that balance.

It will not matter what way the SVS is setup (ported or sealed or extended) as this is a room issue and right now that sub is in a null and is using all its headroom to try and produce ULF and failing just like the HSU before, we can't buy our way out of this one we have to solve it

I would personally try a get one sub working properly first using different positions before going dual even for the sake of getting a somewhat more decent FR before moving on to the second sub. Than hopefully the second sub will fill in the gaps.

As I usually say a Umik-1 would make this while process a lot quicker, but hey we got time on our hands so plenty of time to experiment, when doing your audyssey calibration just calibrate the stereo speakers and sub with 3 messurments with no real need to move the mic keep it at the MLP for all measurements, this is a quick way to see your progress and when you are happy you can go for the full calibration.
Remember that pre graph is pretty accurate so it's an excellent guideline and will show nulls and peaks no matter how hard you try, and the post cal is pretty good in regards to how much Audyssey likes the pre-grpah and will show a nice flat FR. If the post graph is all over the place you have a issue.

Hope this helps and i hope you got some long sub cables

All the best

Jim
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Originally Posted by jconjason View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BJBBJB View Post
.

All subwoofer lovers should watch the last MacGyver episode.

BJBBJB
I refuse to watch any episode of MacGyver that doesn't star Richard Dean Anderson!
How about SG-1
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Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post
Audyssey calibration ignores all settings such as DEQ.

I had DEQ turned on during both cascading crossovers and my normal settings. Bass was bloated with cascading crossovers, not with my normal settings.
Thanks for your response

I was asking because, while I did assume Audyssey calibration will ignores all settings such as DEQ. I prefer the side of caution, instead of assuming.
At least you have tried both settings and at the end, what matter is you for the way it sound in your room.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by jconjason View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BJBBJB View Post
.

All subwoofer lovers should watch the last MacGyver episode.

BJBBJB
I refuse to watch any episode of MacGyver that doesn't star Richard Dean Anderson!
How about SG-1
Absolutely!
BJBBJB
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Thanks for your response

I was asking because, while I did assume Audyssey calibration will ignores all settings such as DEQ. I prefer the side of caution, instead of assuming.
At least you have tried both settings and at the end, what matter is you for the way it sound in your room.


Darth
No assumptions necessary. It's how Audyssey works as outlined in the two extant Audyssey threads. DEQ/Dynamic Volume is not available until calibration has completed.
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post #2057 of 2095 Old 03-25-2020, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Jimmy2Shoes View Post
@pbz06
Hi

The good news is that you don't have a dud and that you have proved even more that this sub location is definitely not ideal. You got a few options to try out, I going to assume you don't have a calibration min like a Umik-1.

Since your HSU is easier to move around I would use this sub to find to best positions.

1)You can try to sub crawl trick, in which you would leave the HSU in the MLP, play some LFE content(pink noise?) and crawl around the room marking each spot where the bass sounds even playing close attention to the sound being too boomy or dropping in sound, Have a google and read a couple of articles on this subject before doing this for any additional tips.

2)A second sub will no doubt help in this situation but I'm still not a fan your first sub position at the moment as it has only one real peak with a lot of nulls, some nulls are okay when going dual as one sub will help out the other so we need to find that balance.

It will not matter what way the SVS is setup (ported or sealed or extended) as this is a room issue and right now that sub is in a null and is using all its headroom to try and produce ULF and failing just like the HSU before, we can't buy our way out of this one we have to solve it

I would personally try a get one sub working properly first using different positions before going dual even for the sake of getting a somewhat more decent FR before moving on to the second sub. Than hopefully the second sub will fill in the gaps.

As I usually say a Umik-1 would make this while process a lot quicker, but hey we got time on our hands so plenty of time to experiment, when doing your audyssey calibration just calibrate the stereo speakers and sub with 3 messurments with no real need to move the mic keep it at the MLP for all measurements, this is a quick way to see your progress and when you are happy you can go for the full calibration.
Remember that pre graph is pretty accurate so it's an excellent guideline and will show nulls and peaks no matter how hard you try, and the post cal is pretty good in regards to how much Audyssey likes the pre-grpah and will show a nice flat FR. If the post graph is all over the place you have a issue.

Hope this helps and i hope you got some long sub cables

All the best

Jim
Thanks, Jim.

I've come to accept that that location is terrible, and it makes no sense to try and take shortcuts, especially not with my investment towards a legit upgrade. You are correct, at the moment I have no Umik-1. I do what you suggest by running the minimum 3 calibrations with only L/R/SW engaged just to see what the pre-cal graph looks like.

With that said, sub-crawl or not due to my layout my only hope is to put a subwoofer between the cabinet and FR speaker and see how it responds. I will then try the other side of the cabinet between the FL speaker. Best case; one PB4000 will work and the other one will go back (the current HSU is claimed by another local member). I might just have to consider going dual pb4000's, both in the front if it's worth the cost. The WAF may potentially be a roadblock.

The good news is that I already have pre-wired LFE lines and splitter on my Pre-out 2, going to the towers. I don't use the LFE line on my towers but I had it wired as backup in case I needed to. It will be easy to plug the subwoofer(s) there.

Well...a new adventure begins My biggest obstacle is just the weight of these things.

thanks again
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post #2058 of 2095 Old 03-25-2020, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
Thanks, Jim.

I've come to accept that that location is terrible, and it makes no sense to try and take shortcuts, especially not with my investment towards a legit upgrade. You are correct, at the moment I have no Umik-1. I do what you suggest by running the minimum 3 calibrations with only L/R/SW engaged just to see what the pre-cal graph looks like.

With that said, sub-crawl or not due to my layout my only hope is to put a subwoofer between the cabinet and FR speaker and see how it responds. I will then try the other side of the cabinet between the FL speaker. Best case; one PB4000 will work and the other one will go back (the current HSU is claimed by another local member). I might just have to consider going dual pb4000's, both in the front if it's worth the cost. The WAF may potentially be a roadblock.

The good news is that I already have pre-wired LFE lines and splitter on my Pre-out 2, going to the towers. I don't use the LFE line on my towers but I had it wired as backup in case I needed to. It will be easy to plug the subwoofer(s) there.

Well...a new adventure begins My biggest obstacle is just the weight of these things.

thanks again
Your Welcome and safe yourself the hassle and use the HSU for now if its easier to maneuver, it doesn't matter what sub is used for testing, once the right spot is found stick your SVS there perhaps even stacking two SVS's if the spot is ideal. ( that would be a back-breaker for sure )
I can tell by your picture that you run a clean setup and I know the WAF comes into the equation but for me if it meant having the sub hanging off a room(edit I meant Ceiling) to get me the best FR I'd make it work somehow

Thanks
Jim
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Originally Posted by Jimmy2Shoes View Post
Your Welcome and safe yourself the hassle and use the HSU for now if its easier to maneuver, it doesn't matter what sub is used for testing, once the right spot is found stick your SVS there perhaps even stacking two SVS's if the spot is ideal. ( that would be a back-breaker for sure )
I can tell by your picture that you run a clean setup and I know the WAF comes into the equation but for me if it meant having the sub hanging off a room to get me the best FR I'd make it work somehow

Thanks
Jim
Haha. The funny thing is, when I say WAF it's more me I just like to blame her so I feel better (jk)

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post #2060 of 2095 Old 03-25-2020, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, back to the drawing board. Not sure if I have a dud or need to find a better spot (leaning to this), but tried running Audyssey tonight and I'm getting worse results with PB4000. Just rolls off like crazy at 30hz, and on top of that, I have a bigger than usual (massive) null between 30-40hz. This is based off the App measurement graph for pre calibration but it matches with what I'm hearing.

The sub is in the exact same spot as the HSU. I tried moving aound a couple feet in listening spot and didn't notice any "louder" areas.

The SVS is in Standard mode (all ports open) and volume -10 per default recommendation. I also tried extended mode.

Even before running Audyssey, it didn't quite sound right (no tactility), but I chalked it off as not being calibrated.

Any suggestions? I actually have a second one unopened (long story) which I'm thinking of trying out, but it's so darn heavy! I also don't think I have room/place for dual subs. Does it make sense to squeeze both in front between my cabinet and each tower? Or keep one in my corner and one in the front? If it's bad spot there, thinking it's wasteful.

I'm going to try putting my HSU in front at each potential location, ust to see how it responds. Easier moving the HSU around. If both spots are good, I might just keep both SVS and leave them in front, and ditch the corner.



Hi,

I have been following your posts with interest, but without commenting, in part because you are already getting good advice from Jim. But, there are a couple of things that I would like to add right now, and there may be more later, as you try different things.

First, if I were you, I would consider sliding the sofa, on the right side of the room, a little further back from the front wall. And, I would then consider moving your front speakers a little closer together. The right speaker is partly blocked by your sofa. That wouldn't matter for a subwoofer, but it may for the two mid-range drivers in that speaker. I think you want that speaker to be a little bit more clear of the sofa, and pointed more toward your MLP, rather than quite so straight ahead.

That may improve your overall sound quality immediately (irrespective of the frequencies played by your sub), and it may also free-up the right corner location for one of your PB4000's. I agree with Jim that I would find a way to make dual PB4000's work in your room, now that you actually have them both on hand. One of them would definitely not be going back, if I were you.

Sometimes, we just need to look at our room with fresh eyes, which is one reason that posting pictures can help. We get so used to the way that we currently have things arranged that we may not see how many other options we actually have. If both subs need to be on the front wall, having them both outboard of your speakers may help, or you could still have the left one inboard if your OCD will allow the asymmetry.

Alternatively, having one PB4000 in the right front corner, and the other one in the left rear corner may work well. Diagonal corners often work. When I say in the corner, they don't have to be pushed all the way in. You may want to move them around a little in the corners to experiment. I would probably do my experiments with the PB4000, although as Jim said, the main thing is to get a sense of where a sub works.

But, whichever sub I experimented with first, I would put furniture sliders under it for easy mobility. And, I would let Audyssey help me to determine what locations are working best. It's a little slow, but surer that way. You can run three mic positions, and calibrate, without ever moving the mic from the MLP. Audyssey won't care.

Once you find a position where Audyssey measures less significant nulls, you can start doing the same exercise for the second sub, with both subs connected if you want to. After getting the best FR you can, there will still be phase adjustments you can make, if necessary. But, that's for later. For right now, I have every confidence that you will be able to make both subs work well in your room.

Regards,
Mike
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Hi,

I have been following your posts with interest, but without commenting, in part because you are already getting good advice from Jim. But, there are a couple of things that I would like to add right now, and there may be more later, as you try different things.

First, if I were you, I would consider sliding the sofa, on the right side of the room, a little further back from the front wall. And, I would then consider moving your front speakers a little closer together. The right speaker is partly blocked by your sofa. That wouldn't matter for a subwoofer, but it may for the two mid-range drivers in that speaker. I think you want that speaker to be a little bit more clear of the sofa, and pointed more toward your MLP, rather than quite so straight ahead.

That may improve your overall sound quality immediately (irrespective of the frequencies played by your sub), and it may also free-up the right corner location for one of your PB4000's. I agree with Jim that I would find a way to make dual PB4000's work in your room, now that you actually have them both on hand. One of them would definitely not be going back, if I were you.

Sometimes, we just need to look at our room with fresh eyes, which is one reason that posting pictures can help. We get so used to the way that we currently have things arranged that we may not see how many other options we actually have. If both subs need to be on the front wall, having them both outboard of your speakers may help, or you could still have the left one inboard if your OCD will allow the asymmetry.

Alternatively, having one PB4000 in the right front corner, and the other one in the left rear corner may work well. Diagonal corners often work. When I say in the corner, they don't have to be pushed all the way in. You may want to move them around a little in the corners to experiment. I would probably do my experiments with the PB4000, although as Jim said, the main thing is to get a sense of where a sub works.

But, whichever sub I experimented with first, I would put furniture sliders under it for easy mobility. And, I would let Audyssey help me to determine what locations are working best. It's a little slow, but surer that way. You can run three mic positions, and calibrate, without ever moving the mic from the MLP. Audyssey won't care.

Once you find a position where Audyssey measures less significant nulls, you can start doing the same exercise for the second sub, with both subs connected if you want to. After getting the best FR you can, there will still be phase adjustments you can make, if necessary. But, that's for later. For right now, I have every confidence that you will be able to make both subs work well in your room.

Regards,
Mike
OK, looks like I have a couple of things to try.

Clarification: I only have about 8-inches to slide that sofa before the leg-rests would be blocked from reclining. Also, if it makes a difference to your suggestion, my lower mid tweater is currently about a little over 6-inches above the sofa armrest. I'll check the measurements to see if there's feasibility in placing the subwoofer there.

I would definitely need either both subs (like how I'm talking dual now as if it's a done deal? haha) to be outward or inward. I just don't think my OCD would let me (not kidding) otherwise. Diagonal corners would not be possible because there is no rear left corner (open floor) and there's actually a 6-inch step down so it's a little crammed See diagram/photos attached below. My main hesitation on putting subs outward location is because I'm at about 30-degrees with my speakers and MLP, and would initially prefer I keep that separation (99% movies).

I think I have a path to try a couple locations now.

(1a) and (1b): The front inward locations.
(2): Front right corner. If physically can fit, then second sub will be outward location on front left side as well.

For physical ease, I'll start with the HSU at those locations just to get a sense before I worry about the heavier sub. The second SVS is still in the box too.
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post #2062 of 2095 Old 03-25-2020, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, looks like I have a couple of things to try.

Clarification: I only have about 8-inches to slide that sofa before the leg-rests would be blocked from reclining. Also, if it makes a difference to your suggestion, my lower mid tweater is currently about a little over 6-inches above the sofa armrest. I'll check the measurements to see if there's feasibility in placing the subwoofer there.

I would definitely need either both subs (like how I'm talking dual now as if it's a done deal? haha) to be outward or inward. I just don't think my OCD would let me (not kidding) otherwise. Diagonal corners would not be possible because there is no rear left corner (open floor) and there's actually a 6-inch step down so it's a little crammed See diagram/photos attached below. My main hesitation on putting subs outward location is because I'm at about 30-degrees with my speakers and MLP, and would initially prefer I keep that separation (99% movies).

I think I have a path to try a couple locations now.

(1a) and (1b): The front inward locations.
(2): Front right corner. If physically can fit, then second sub will be outward location on front left side as well.

For physical ease, I'll start with the HSU at those locations just to get a sense before I worry about the heavier sub. The second SVS is still in the box too.

The new pictures help, and I see your problem. It's all pretty tight! I think it's really tough to predict where subwoofers will work until we actually try them. But, in addition to the two options you mentioned, it's possible that if you can get one subwoofer to work well somewhere along the front wall, your second sub could remain where the HSU is now. That would open-up the possibility of having both subs on the right wall (in both corners), or having a diagonal arrangement from the left front, to the right rear. The left front sub wouldn't be in a corner, but that might not matter.

I think your first priority is just to find a place somewhere along the front wall, where the HSU seems to work, and then you can move on to the second location. The current location for the HSU may continue to suck no matter what you do, but I wouldn't completely rule it out just yet, depending on what kind of peaks you can get somewhere along the front wall.

Regards,
Mike
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post #2063 of 2095 Old 03-25-2020, 12:18 PM
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OK, looks like I have a couple of things to try.

Clarification: I only have about 8-inches to slide that sofa before the leg-rests would be blocked from reclining. Also, if it makes a difference to your suggestion, my lower mid tweater is currently about a little over 6-inches above the sofa armrest. I'll check the measurements to see if there's feasibility in placing the subwoofer there.

I would definitely need either both subs (like how I'm talking dual now as if it's a done deal? haha) to be outward or inward. I just don't think my OCD would let me (not kidding) otherwise. Diagonal corners would not be possible because there is no rear left corner (open floor) and there's actually a 6-inch step down so it's a little crammed See diagram/photos attached below. My main hesitation on putting subs outward location is because I'm at about 30-degrees with my speakers and MLP, and would initially prefer I keep that separation (99% movies).

I think I have a path to try a couple locations now.

(1a) and (1b): The front inward locations.
(2): Front right corner. If physically can fit, then second sub will be outward location on front left side as well.

For physical ease, I'll start with the HSU at those locations just to get a sense before I worry about the heavier sub. The second SVS is still in the box too.
Oh we all know its a done deal, they sent me two by mistake trick Unbox it dude

Mike has given you two suggestions there which should give you some dramatic differences in the FR, The front wall is where I would start as well
If you could get both subs in between the cabinet like in the picture I have a good feeling it might work only space seems an issue you might lose a little toe in from your L/R, this would be the easier one to try first
The current HSU location might get a good boost with an additional sub, in a space that tight you can try turning the sub clockwise, small changes like this can have a dramatic benefit especially when it comes to blending subs, but I be more inclined to get them both in the front if at possible first on any config you can that pleases you

In my setup I have 2 subs at the front stage and neither are facing at me all for the sake of sound over style, but we can have both if done right
If you can get them subs on wheels that would be awesome

Thanks
Jim
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@pbz06

The way the two couches are when they meet only one can reline even in there state now so that gives you some wiggle room to when the HSU is gone to move it back further
So the first image is more closer to Mike's suggestion freeing up the front stage
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@pbz06

The way the two couches are when they meet only one can reline even in there state now so that gives you some wiggle room to when the HSU is gone to move it back further
So the first image is more closer to Mike's suggestion freeing up the front stage
thank you so much. Fantastic to visualize.
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post #2066 of 2095 Old 03-25-2020, 06:00 PM
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thank you so much. Fantastic to visualize.
Ill add my $0.02. I moved recently so have 2 dual sub setups I tweaked. Subs are a pair of HSU VTF-3 MK5. Both were basement setups. The old house was a much larger room which caused more problems getting enough punch in the space. I messed around quite a bit and with the aid of using REW found diagonal "corners" worked best. I say "corners" because one of them was not a corner at all with one side like 10' from a wall. The "corners" were in relation to the listening area.

House Im in now is a smaller room and more manageable. The two HSU subs just crush it here! I worked on it for awhile and again, the diagonal corners worked the best. This time, they are closer to being actual corners.

I would try one in the RR corner between the couches and the other on inside of the LF tower. Alternatively, outside corner of left front and move the towers inboard.

Good Luck!
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post #2067 of 2095 Old 03-27-2020, 02:18 PM
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Ok guys, I've completed the first part of my homework assignment and would like your thoughts on what you see and what to consider next steps.

I used the HSU (VTF15-MK2) because it's already out and easier to move/slide around. I understand the compromises of using that instead of the other PB-4000 but this was more to get a little clarity on my room situation before moving to the bigger and heavier subwoofer. The good news is, it actually will fit in the front right corner without needing to permanently move the speaker.

The 3 positions I tired:

(1) Front Left (between the cabinet and speaker), both as a single sub and then as dual.
(2) Front Right (between the cabinet and speaker), both as a single sub and then as dual.
(3) Front Right Corner (between the speaker and wall), both as a single sub and then as dual.

6 total runs

The HSU was in it's max extension mode (1 port plugged, EQ1, Q=0.7). The SVS was in the default Standard Mode (all ports open). I only ran 3 mic positions to speed up the process. I didn't gain match beforehand and also skipped the level matching part of the Audyssey.

From a WAF factor...ok for my own personal taste visually/aesthetically....I would much prefer the front right corner option (dual), followed by the front right, and distant third the front left.

I'm hoping any potential problems/issues can bee further alleviated once I learn how to use PEQ and tweak align/phasing, but need to learn to walk first.

FYI, my speakers will be set up as 80hz cross-over and their -3dB is at 32hz. I'm hoping any null would be smoothed out with integration with the towers.
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post #2068 of 2095 Old 03-27-2020, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok guys, I've completed the first part of my homework assignment and would like your thoughts on what you see and what to consider next steps.

I used the HSU (VTF15-MK2) because it's already out and easier to move/slide around. I understand the compromises of using that instead of the other PB-4000 but this was more to get a little clarity on my room situation before moving to the bigger and heavier subwoofer. The good news is, it actually will fit in the front right corner without needing to permanently move the speaker.

The 3 positions I tired:

(1) Front Left (between the cabinet and speaker), both as a single sub and then as dual.
(2) Front Right (between the cabinet and speaker), both as a single sub and then as dual.
(3) Front Right Corner (between the speaker and wall), both as a single sub and then as dual.

6 total runs

The HSU was in it's max extension mode (1 port plugged, EQ1, Q=0.7). The SVS was in the default Standard Mode (all ports open). I only ran 3 mic positions to speed up the process. I didn't gain match beforehand and also skipped the level matching part of the Audyssey.

From a WAF factor...ok for my own personal taste visually/aesthetically....I would much prefer the front right corner option, followed by the front right, and distant third the front left.

I'm hoping any potential problems/issues can bee further alleviated once I learn how to use PEQ and tweak align/phasing, but need to learn to walk first.

FYI, my speakers will be set up as 80hz cross-over and their -3dB is at 32hz. I'm hoping any null would be smoothed out with integration with the towers.

Hi,

I will try to give you some preliminary thoughts on this. I know it has already been a lot of effort, but I think that the eventual results will be well worth it.

First, the front left position, which you said you didn't like, seemed to give you the best overall response, except for a null down low. The front right corner is also very promising. That gives you a strong peak down low, and a fairly narrow null between about 50 and 60Hz. That position might be a keeper.

Second, measuring duals right now, in the way you are doing it, is not going to help you. That would especially be the case where you are using two different subs, with different phase responses. That could be part of the reason that all three of the dual sub responses look so bad. You could be getting some cancellation from the subs themselves, exclusive of room modes. And, it could be that the position where the HSU was originally located is just hopeless.

You either have to measure the subs individually, and then mentally overlay the combined frequency responses, or you have to measure identical and level-matched subs. Personally, as noted earlier, I would be using the PB4000's for this exercise, but if you want to use only one of them, then you need to measure it on its own, and then try to see whether you can find a spot where it fills-in for a null on the front soundstage.

Again, either front left, or front right corner, look like the best options, so now you are trying to find a second spot that compliments one of them. Looking again at (1) and (3), it appears to me that putting a PB4000 in the right front corner, and another one somewhere along the left wall might work. Honestly, I think it's time to unbox the second PB4000 now, and try measuring both of them together, after level-matching them. I would also put them both in Extended, one-port plugged mode.

Regards,
Mike
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post #2069 of 2095 Old 03-27-2020, 03:43 PM
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Hi,

I will try to give you some preliminary thoughts on this. I know it has already been a lot of effort, but I think that the eventual results will be well worth it.
Thanks. I will be opening it up this weekend and starting with the FR Corner placement + current RR Corner, since that's our preferred option unless it just doesn't work and gets ruled out.

This image is a comparison of the initial RearLeft corner with the PB4000, and below is today's single run of the HSU in front right corner...with same caveat that they are mismatched performance, but I do see it as potentially good news that the nulls are not overlapping (?).
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post #2070 of 2095 Old 03-27-2020, 04:06 PM
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Thanks. I will be opening it up this weekend and starting with the FR Corner placement + current RR Corner, since that's our preferred option unless it just doesn't work and gets ruled out.

This image is a comparison of the initial RearLeft corner with the PB4000, and below is today's single run of the HSU in front right corner...with same caveat that they are mismatched performance, but I do see it as potentially good news that the nulls are not overlapping (?).
This would be a lot easier with REW and a Umik-1...
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