Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences - Page 77 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2281 of 2327 Old 05-13-2020, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by filmoreXXX View Post
Thanks Mike and Darth

Yes Darth I have an older Marantz - the av8003 Released around 2008 I think

Experimenting last night I found that for LFE setting in my circa 2009 Marantz pre/pro it appears that poster at Audioholics was right : for surround set up of LFE LEVEL “OFF” = no signal , 0db equals normal LFE signal levels and -10db means the LFE signal has been attenuated from AVR to Half it’s normal strength

Why on earth pre pro manufacturers can’t give better , more accurate advise In user manuals on sub setup Is baffling
Unfortunately, I also find my Marantz to be evasive and difficult to understand on many subject

Thankfully now a day, we have some forums like this one. That can help us, when things get confusing
Learning from this forum, and some thread like this one. Is where I have learn a lot, and still learning from others that are more verse on different subjects.


Darth

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post #2282 of 2327 Old 05-19-2020, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,
If you have ARC though, I'm not sure I understand why you would want to do independent time-alignment. Most systems of auto-EQ are pretty accurate at level-matching and time-aligning channels, as part of the calibration process. If you are experiencing specific phase-related issues, after that calibration, you would then be able to use REW to tweak your results. That is the more common approach.

Regards,
Mike
Mike, the problem is that the system that my Anthem AVM-60 uses, Genesis, doesn't offer time alignment. It has to be manually added by measuring distances. Since I'm using a minidsp in my system I need a way to time align the sub because the minidsp adds delay to the sub signal. As it turns out, REW works perfectly for this and I found that the minidsp altered the "distance" from 6' to 26' (NOT the actual distance but I had to alter the distances to accommodate the large time difference for the sub)!! I don't understand why Anthem chose to not add delay to their software as it seems to be a very easy measurement for auto-EQ software to perform.
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post #2283 of 2327 Old 05-19-2020, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by mitchlampert View Post
Mike, the problem is that the system that my Anthem AVM-60 uses, Genesis, doesn't offer time alignment. It has to be manually added by measuring distances. Since I'm using a minidsp in my system I need a way to time align the sub because the minidsp adds delay to the sub signal. As it turns out, REW works perfectly for this and I found that the minidsp altered the "distance" from 6' to 26' (NOT the actual distance but I had to alter the distances to accommodate the large time difference for the sub)!! I don't understand why Anthem chose to not add delay to their software as it seems to be a very easy measurement for auto-EQ software to perform.
Me neither

For an AVP at price, the calibration system within. Should at least include delay, for correcting the different distance.


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post #2284 of 2327 Old 05-19-2020, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mitchlampert View Post
Mike, the problem is that the system that my Anthem AVM-60 uses, Genesis, doesn't offer time alignment. It has to be manually added by measuring distances. Since I'm using a minidsp in my system I need a way to time align the sub because the minidsp adds delay to the sub signal. As it turns out, REW works perfectly for this and I found that the minidsp altered the "distance" from 6' to 26' (NOT the actual distance but I had to alter the distances to accommodate the large time difference for the sub)!! I don't understand why Anthem chose to not add delay to their software as it seems to be a very easy measurement for auto-EQ software to perform.
Yes, this seems like an oversight on the ARC calibration, especially given that the sub outputs are independent it is strange that it doesn't just ping the subs and generates the distances, from reading the ARC thread it does all the other things you would expect on dual subs like level match and EQ but not phase alignment.

So I wonder if you did set up your subs through the MniDsp and REW, get them phase-aligned and add PEQ's(optional), and like I said before just use one output on the Anthem. This would mean that Anthem can't muck up the phase alignment of your subs as it only can see one. As to what distance you give this 1 virtual sub is questionable.

The distance for the one sub now is important to phase align with the rest of the speakers which ARC no doubt does, so maybe give it a distance of 0 and let ARC compensate with adding the distance's to the rest of the speakers. Which I assume ARC created distance for the speakers through calibration?

There may be more to this that I'm not quite getting, but in my head this is kind of making sense to me

All the best

Jim
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post #2285 of 2327 Old 05-20-2020, 01:15 AM
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i have my subwoofer up beneath my left front bookshelf speaker the speaker is on a shelf that is mounted above the subwoofer.

Problem is all the bass seems to be coming from the left side of the room. I can easily tell where the subwoofer is. I have tried lowering crossover and this is my 2nd and final placement option. These 2 options have not helped.
My first placement option was between the L R main speakers but still much closer to the left speaker. The speakers are spread wide because of an 85 inch tv that sits between them.

Any tips on what to look at next?


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post #2286 of 2327 Old 05-20-2020, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by klipsch123 View Post
i have my subwoofer up beneath my left front bookshelf speaker the speaker is on a shelf that is mounted above the subwoofer.

Problem is all the bass seems to be coming from the left side of the room. I can easily tell where the subwoofer is. I have tried lowering crossover and this is my 2nd and final placement option. These 2 options have not helped.
My first placement option was between the L R main speakers but still much closer to the left speaker. The speakers are spread wide because of an 85 inch tv that sits between them.

Any tips on what to look at next?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi,

I believe that some people are much more sensitive to bass localization than others. I seem to be one of the people who notices bass localization more, both as an aspect of bass sound, and as an aspect of bass tactile sensations. When you say that you have tried lowering the crossover, how much have you lowered it? What kind of speakers do you have?

You may be limited by the capabilities of your front speakers, but give us a little more information about what room calibration system you have, and what the original crossover set by your AVR was. Have you been able to try a 60Hz crossover for your front bookshelf speakers, and/or for your center channel if you have one?

Other than providing a little more information on your AVR, speakers, and crossovers, the first thing I would suggest is that you post some photos of your room, to see whether any additional placement suggestions can be made. Show all of the front wall, and also provide a shot looking back toward the main listening position. Sometimes, a different set of eyes, experienced in subwoofer placement, might see something you have missed. It's worth a try!

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #2287 of 2327 Old 05-20-2020, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I believe that some people are much more sensitive to bass localization than others. I seem to be one of the people who notices bass localization more, both as an aspect of bass sound, and as an aspect of bass tactile sensations. When you say that you have tried lowering the crossover, how much have you lowered it? What kind of speakers do you have?

You may be limited by the capabilities of your front speakers, but give us a little more information about what room calibration system you have, and what the original crossover set by your AVR was. Have you been able to try a 60Hz crossover for your front bookshelf speakers, and/or for your center channel if you have one?

Other than providing a little more information on your AVR, speakers, and crossovers, the first thing I would suggest is that you post some photos of your room, to see whether any additional placement suggestions can be made. Show all of the front wall, and also provide a shot looking back toward the main listening position. Sometimes, a different set of eyes, experienced in subwoofer placement, might see something you have missed. It's worth a try!

Regards,
Mike

Hey thanks for the reply,

I have 2 Klipsch RP 160m book shelf for mains

Klipsch RP 450C center

RP 250s surrounds

Svs prime elevation for overheard

Monolith 15 THX ultra ported subwoofer

Yamaha RXA 3060 Receiver

I’ve set the crossover to 40hz for the mains last night, but haven’t played with it but this is below my mains specified frequency response of 48hz , even though i’ve read that the crossover should be an octave above its rated response. I want to see if it helps with the bass response.

I’ll see if i can get pictures or at least some kind of room layout later (currently working from home)


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post #2288 of 2327 Old 05-20-2020, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I believe that some people are much more sensitive to bass localization than others. I seem to be one of the people who notices bass localization more, both as an aspect of bass sound, and as an aspect of bass tactile sensations. When you say that you have tried lowering the crossover, how much have you lowered it? What kind of speakers do you have?

You may be limited by the capabilities of your front speakers, but give us a little more information about what room calibration system you have, and what the original crossover set by your AVR was. Have you been able to try a 60Hz crossover for your front bookshelf speakers, and/or for your center channel if you have one?

Other than providing a little more information on your AVR, speakers, and crossovers, the first thing I would suggest is that you post some photos of your room, to see whether any additional placement suggestions can be made. Show all of the front wall, and also provide a shot looking back toward the main listening position. Sometimes, a different set of eyes, experienced in subwoofer placement, might see something you have missed. It's worth a try!

Regards,
Mike
True, but will add another potential possibility to the OP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by klipsch123 View Post
i have my subwoofer up beneath my left front bookshelf speaker the speaker is on a shelf that is mounted above the subwoofer.

Problem is all the bass seems to be coming from the left side of the room. I can easily tell where the subwoofer is. I have tried lowering crossover and this is my 2nd and final placement option. These 2 options have not helped.
My first placement option was between the L R main speakers but still much closer to the left speaker. The speakers are spread wide because of an 85 inch tv that sits between them.

Any tips on what to look at next?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
In theory, our hearing should not be able to localise sound of 80Hz and below (assuming you use 80Hz on the sub). But as Mike said, some are more sensitive and may be able to hear where those frequencies come from.

That said, sometime it is not the sound of the sub. But could be something near by, that resonate near your sub and give it's location. Or since the crossover cut off point, it is not a brick wall. It could be, that it will play some frequencies like 90Hz. And those higher frequencies, while playing at much lower volume. Are the ones giving away the sub location.

For your main crossover point, 40Hz is too low since they are rated at 48Hz and would use 80Hz myself. And let the sub do what it is design for, for playing down from that crossover point. And let your bookshelf, do what they do best. For not trying to play frequencies, not design for.


Darth
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post #2289 of 2327 Old 05-24-2020, 05:30 PM
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Can anyone please explain why my new PB16ultras are set by default to OFF for the Low Pass Filter and how it affects the overall sub? I experimented a lot with the cascading crossovers on the other sub I had, but it didn't have an OFF button for the Low Pass Filter like this SVS sub does. Instead, it just had a knob on it to turn it to the correct hz (I did 80hz on it to match my other speakers and the LFE in the AVR. On this new setup I am thinking I am going to just stick with the default in the receiver of LFE 120hz so should I just stick with SVS's default for the Low Pass Filter "OFF?"

I also want to bring this up as well. The new calibration software defaults to "Flat" on this (your subwoofer plays full-range). I was thinking of using the "4th order" option here on this new Anthem directly quoted from them using ARC calibration. Can anyone verify if this is correct for the SVS pb16ultra. Here is the setting on my calibration software and explanation:

Low-Frequency Extension Slope control allows you to adjust the rate at which your subwoofer rolls off at its lowest frequency. Change the slope only if for some reason ARC's recommendation does not match the natural low-frequency roll-off of the measured response. The left side of the measurement curve is the guideline for shaping the target curve. Do not use this as a means of extending low-frequency output beyond the sub’s capability.

The options are:

Flat (your subwoofer plays full-range)
1st order (rolls-off at 6dB per octave)
2nd order (rolls-off at 12dB per octave)
3rd order (rolls-off at 18dB per octave)
4th order (rolls-off at 24dB per octave)
Etcetera
16th order (rolls-off at 96dB per octave)
For most applications, we recommend setting the slope to match the natural roll off of your subwoofer’s measured response. It is not advised to use a high setting that rapidly rolls off. If you don’t understand how Low-Frequency Extension Slope works, we recommend using the value that the ARC algorithms have calculated.

Thank you for any help. I am so excited to get these PB16ultras up and running! I am going from One 13.5" sub to 2x16" because of this thread!! I can already tell how much more even the sound is! Thanks again mthomas for this awesome thread and those who upkeep it!
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post #2290 of 2327 Old 05-24-2020, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by iStorm View Post
Can anyone please explain why my new PB16ultras are set by default to OFF for the Low Pass Filter and how it affects the overall sub? I experimented a lot with the cascading crossovers on the other sub I had, but it didn't have an OFF button for the Low Pass Filter like this SVS sub does. Instead, it just had a knob on it to turn it to the correct hz (I did 80hz on it to match my other speakers and the LFE in the AVR. On this new setup I am thinking I am going to just stick with the default in the receiver of LFE 120hz so should I just stick with SVS's default for the Low Pass Filter "OFF?"

I also want to bring this up as well. The new calibration software defaults to "Flat" on this (your subwoofer plays full-range). I was thinking of using the "4th order" option here on this new Anthem directly quoted from them using ARC calibration. Can anyone verify if this is correct for the SVS pb16ultra. Here is the setting on my calibration software and explanation:

Low-Frequency Extension Slope control allows you to adjust the rate at which your subwoofer rolls off at its lowest frequency. Change the slope only if for some reason ARC's recommendation does not match the natural low-frequency roll-off of the measured response. The left side of the measurement curve is the guideline for shaping the target curve. Do not use this as a means of extending low-frequency output beyond the sub’s capability.

The options are:

Flat (your subwoofer plays full-range)
1st order (rolls-off at 6dB per octave)
2nd order (rolls-off at 12dB per octave)
3rd order (rolls-off at 18dB per octave)
4th order (rolls-off at 24dB per octave)
Etcetera
16th order (rolls-off at 96dB per octave)
For most applications, we recommend setting the slope to match the natural roll off of your subwoofer’s measured response. It is not advised to use a high setting that rapidly rolls off. If you don’t understand how Low-Frequency Extension Slope works, we recommend using the value that the ARC algorithms have calculated.

Thank you for any help. I am so excited to get these PB16ultras up and running! I am going from One 13.5" sub to 2x16" because of this thread!! I can already tell how much more even the sound is! Thanks again mthomas for this awesome thread and those who upkeep it!
If you want to use cascading crossovers with your SVS, you are correct you would need to enable "LPF" on the app and use 24dB slope.
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post #2291 of 2327 Old 05-24-2020, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by iStorm View Post
Can anyone please explain why my new PB16ultras are set by default to OFF for the Low Pass Filter and how it affects the overall sub? I experimented a lot with the cascading crossovers on the other sub I had, but it didn't have an OFF button for the Low Pass Filter like this SVS sub does. Instead, it just had a knob on it to turn it to the correct hz (I did 80hz on it to match my other speakers and the LFE in the AVR. On this new setup I am thinking I am going to just stick with the default in the receiver of LFE 120hz so should I just stick with SVS's default for the Low Pass Filter "OFF?"

I also want to bring this up as well. The new calibration software defaults to "Flat" on this (your subwoofer plays full-range). I was thinking of using the "4th order" option here on this new Anthem directly quoted from them using ARC calibration. Can anyone verify if this is correct for the SVS pb16ultra. Here is the setting on my calibration software and explanation:

Low-Frequency Extension Slope control allows you to adjust the rate at which your subwoofer rolls off at its lowest frequency. Change the slope only if for some reason ARC's recommendation does not match the natural low-frequency roll-off of the measured response. The left side of the measurement curve is the guideline for shaping the target curve. Do not use this as a means of extending low-frequency output beyond the sub’s capability.

The options are:

Flat (your subwoofer plays full-range)
1st order (rolls-off at 6dB per octave)
2nd order (rolls-off at 12dB per octave)
3rd order (rolls-off at 18dB per octave)
4th order (rolls-off at 24dB per octave)
Etcetera
16th order (rolls-off at 96dB per octave)
For most applications, we recommend setting the slope to match the natural roll off of your subwoofer’s measured response. It is not advised to use a high setting that rapidly rolls off. If you don’t understand how Low-Frequency Extension Slope works, we recommend using the value that the ARC algorithms have calculated.

Thank you for any help. I am so excited to get these PB16ultras up and running! I am going from One 13.5" sub to 2x16" because of this thread!! I can already tell how much more even the sound is! Thanks again mthomas for this awesome thread and those who upkeep it!
Congrats on the upgrade

On your previous SVS subs you would have had a off on the analog for LP filter, it just would have been "LFE" which in essence is off. Which would be generally the recommended way to start a calibration as you would get a full range calibration without the subs rolling off at 80hz. So makes sense that the App would default to OFF which equals LFE FULL

So with ARC I would for sure leave it at off and do the calibration, and then see how the subs look on the FR graph. Then use ARC to set the LP filter according to the graph where it rolls off.

You can of coarse use cascading crossover after this, putting a LP filter on ARC and the SVS subs

I would try no cascading crossover first and see how it sounds, let them bad boys breath, then later on try cascading and see what you like more.

Jim
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post #2292 of 2327 Old 05-24-2020, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Jimmy2Shoes View Post
Congrats on the upgrade

On your previous SVS subs you would have had a off on the analog for LP filter, it just would have been "LFE" which in essence is off. Which would be generally the recommended way to start a calibration as you would get a full range calibration without the subs rolling off at 80hz. So makes sense that the App would default to OFF which equals LFE FULL

So with ARC I would for sure leave it at off and do the calibration, and then see how the subs look on the FR graph. Then use ARC to set the LP filter according to the graph where it rolls off.

You can of coarse use cascading crossover after this, putting a LP filter on ARC and the SVS subs

I would try no cascading crossover first and see how it sounds, let them bad boys breath, then later on try cascading and see what you like more.

Jim
Jim! Thanks so much for the reply. Just to make sure I understand you. If I leave the SVS subs DEFAULT LOW PASS FILTER OFF, then I would just use the default recommended full range that ARC is trying to use? This is the "FLAT full range option."

On the other hand if I want to try cascading crossovers, I would set the sub to LOW PASS FILTER ON 120hz then choose 4th order 24db octave?

Thanks so much and these subs rock! I changed the ARC to the 4th other 24db octave rolloff and left the sub to OFF default Low pass filter and it doesnt seem to sound right.
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post #2293 of 2327 Old 05-24-2020, 06:48 PM
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Jim! Thanks so much for the reply. Just to make sure I understand you. If I leave the SVS subs DEFAULT LOW PASS FILTER OFF, then I would just use the default recommended full range that ARC is trying to use? This is the "FLAT full range option."

On the other hand if I want to try cascading crossovers, I would set the sub to LOW PASS FILTER ON 120hz then choose 4th order 24db octave?

Thanks so much and these subs rock! I changed the ARC to the 4th other 24db octave rolloff and left the sub to OFF default Low pass filter and it doesnt seem to sound right.
Your Welcome

To your first paragraph yes, you want to give ARC all the information it needs, you can decide later what to do with it.

You can implement a cascading crossover after the calibration, I would choose a LPF a bit lower than 120hz perhaps 80 and 4th order 24db octave but this all depends on the main stage speakers and how capable they are, the curve of the slope is something you can play around with.

I see in your last post that ARC will choose these settings using there algorithm if you want, have you tried this? might be good

When you say i didn't sound right, did it sound to bass heavy or the opposite, some of this can be sub location too and how the sub is being EQ, so this is another area worth looking at. With ARC like Dirac you can have the subs roll off like a house curve, this can negate the need for cascading crossovers where in Audyssey i felt you needed to use cascading crossover, it created a something simalar to a house curve without extending too much in the higher frequencies like 100hz and above

On a side note I have never used ARC just Dirac and Audyssey but it's all the same concept so I assume ARC is the same. Have a good play around with it plus zone in on the subs FR graph first, try to make sure they are in the best positions before anything else.

Jim
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post #2294 of 2327 Old 05-24-2020, 07:13 PM
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Your Welcome

To your first paragraph yes, you want to give ARC all the information it needs, you can decide later what to do with it.

You can implement a cascading crossover after the calibration, I would choose a LPF a bit lower than 120hz perhaps 80 and 4th order 24db octave but this all depends on the main stage speakers and how capable they are, the curve of the slope is something you can play around with.

I see in your last post that ARC will choose these settings using there algorithm if you want, have you tried this? might be good

When you say i didn't sound right, did it sound to bass heavy or the opposite, some of this can be sub location too and how the sub is being EQ, so this is another area worth looking at. With ARC like Dirac you can have the subs roll off like a house curve, this can negate the need for cascading crossovers where in Audyssey i felt you needed to use cascading crossover, it created a something simalar to a house curve without extending too much in the higher frequencies like 100hz and above

On a side note I have never used ARC just Dirac and Audyssey but it's all the same concept so I assume ARC is the same. Have a good play around with it plus zone in on the subs FR graph first, try to make sure they are in the best positions before anything else.

Jim
Jim,

Thanks again for the quick reply! My current setup in this room is Emotiva T2 4 ohm towers, Emotiva C2 Center, Emotiva E2 Surrounds, Emotiva A1 Dolby atmos front reflective speakers. I have everything set to 80hz minus the atmos A1s which are set at 120hz. I have dual pb16 ultras as noted and the Anthem AVM60 processor with Monolith 7 channel amp.

So you're saying it's okay to have the Subs on the "Flat" slope setting? It means the subwoofers play in full range which I have no idea what this means.

I'm used to setting the Low pass filter on the sub to 80hz and then going into the receiver and setting Subwoofer LPF to LFE to match that at 80hz (cascading crossover).

I guess I am getting confused if I should leave the default sub Low Pass Filter OFF and if I do so then can I still change the slope setting in my processor to 4th order 24db per octave roll off setting? Or should I only use the flat full range subwoofer setting with the SVS default on the subs low pass filter off?

I hope this makes sense. I ONLY way bluray and 4K movies in this room. We do not listen to music on this system.

Thank you and sorry for all of the questions.

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You can implement a cascading crossover after the calibration,
Jim
I also want to clarify, I thought if I changed anything on the subwoofer itself like turning on the Low Pass Filter, I had to recalibrate? I don't need to at all?

I also set the phase of the subs prior to running the ARC room correction. I have one subwoofer in the front left corner next to the left tower and one subwoofer diagonally across in the right corner right next to the 2 seat home theater chair. The front subwoofer is set to phase 0 and the one in back is set to phase 180. I used an SPL meter and turned through each phase degree to see which phase had the most SPL at the MLP and this is how I got these phase settings for each sub. Sound right?

Thanks again

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post #2295 of 2327 Old 05-24-2020, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by iStorm View Post
Jim,

Thanks again for the quick reply! My current setup in this room is Emotiva T2 4 ohm towers, Emotiva C2 Center, Emotiva E2 Surrounds, Emotiva A1 Dolby atmos front reflective speakers. I have everything set to 80hz minus the atmos A1s which are set at 120hz. I have dual pb16 ultras as noted and the Anthem AVM60 processor with Monolith 7 channel amp.

So you're saying it's okay to have the Subs on the "Flat" slope setting? It means the subwoofers play in full range which I have no idea what this means.

I'm used to setting the Low pass filter on the sub to 80hz and then going into the receiver and setting Subwoofer LPF to LFE to match that at 80hz (cascading crossover).

I guess I am getting confused if I should leave the default sub Low Pass Filter OFF and if I do so then can I still change the slope setting in my processor to 4th order 24db per octave roll off setting? Or should I only use the flat full range subwoofer setting with the SVS default on the subs low pass filter off?

I hope this makes sense. I ONLY way bluray and 4K movies in this room. We do not listen to music on this system.

Thank you and sorry for all of the questions.

No bother buddy

Let's break it down a bit

Going back to your first post said the default for the LPF is off. This means the subs are going to output full-range. Which means there is no barrier in a digital sense on the DSP that will roll off the subs sooner than they are capable off. Basically allows the AVR full control over the crossover of the Sub

So this has no relevance to flat which I believe is be a preset on the SVSPB16's, flat is no PEQ (I think?) and they also have movie and music(which would have different PEQs adding different character to the sub, I don't have one of these subs so going off memory from the thread.

It is probably important to choose what preset to choose here before calibration as unlike Audyssey which would EQ to flat, ARC I would assume will preserve the curve and will be useful for later on.

If it were me I would choose movie before calibration as this is your main content.

Port tuning is another option to choose pre calibration, I would choose standard and have all ports open, but you can decide this

So settings so far pre-calibration for ARC

1)LPF = OFF (Which is default in the App)
2)Preset = Movie
3) Port tuning = Standard ?

Now it's important to give this information pre-calibration as it gives ARC more to work with, it won't make the FR flat like Audyssey but rather will add PEQ's to adjust for nulls and peaks and will preserve the curve.

Once the calibration is done, you have options to work with, but I recommend keeping things simple for now and see what ARC recommends and let it do it's thing, you should with the setting you have made pre-cal have a pretty hefty sound coming from your system.

When you said this
"I'm used to setting the Low pass filter on the sub to 80hz and then going into the receiver and setting Subwoofer LPF to LFE to match that at 80hz (cascading crossover)"
It kind of tells me that you were doing cascading crossover with Audyssey prior to this?

I think like I said before that ARC may work a bit different and more like Dirac, in which case cascading crossover might not be needed but I'm not a hundred percent on this.

So to recap Flat has nothing to do with the LPF setting, it is a preset.
(I hope I'm right on this LOL, I don't have a sub like this)

If you want to use a cascading crossover after this, you can set the
LPF on the Sub to 80hz 24db slope
Set set LPF on the sub in ARC to 80hz LPF too
This can be done post calibration so you can switch at any time on the fly to hear the difference

I hope this helps a bit more

Jim
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Last edited by Jimmy2Shoes; 05-24-2020 at 08:05 PM.
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post #2296 of 2327 Old 05-24-2020, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy2Shoes View Post
No bother buddy

Let's break it down a bit

Going back to your first post said the default for the LPF is off. This means the subs are going to output full-range. Which means there is no barrier in a digital sense on the DSP that will roll off the subs sooner than they are capable off. Basically allows the AVR full control over the crossover of the Sub

So this has no relevance to flat which I believe is be a preset on the SVSPB16's, flat is no PEQ (I think?) and they also have movie and music(which would have different PEQs adding different character to the sub, I don't have one of these subs so going off memory from the thread.

It is probably important to choose what preset to choose here before calibration as unlike Audyssey which would EQ to flat, ARC I would assume will preserve the curve and will be useful for later on.

If it were me I would choose movie before calibration as this is your main content.

Port tuning is another option to choose pre calibration, I would choose standard and have all ports open, but you can decide this

So settings so far pre-calibration for ARC

1)LPF = OFF (Which is default in the App)
2)Preset = Movie
3) Port tuning = Standard ?

Now it's important to give this information pre-calibration as it gives ARC more to work with, it won't make the FR flat like Audyssey but rather will add PEQ's to adjust for nulls and peaks and will preserve the curve.

Once the calibration is done, you have options to work with, but I recommend keeping things simple for now and see what ARC recommends and let it do it's thing, you should with the setting you have made pre-cal have a pretty hefty sound coming from your system.

When you said this
"I'm used to setting the Low pass filter on the sub to 80hz and then going into the receiver and setting Subwoofer LPF to LFE to match that at 80hz (cascading crossover)"
It kind of tells me that you were doing cascading crossover with Audyssey prior to this?

I think like I said before that ARC may work a bit different and more like Dirac, in which case cascading crossover might not be needed but I'm not a hundred percent on this.

So to recap Flat has nothing to do with the LPF setting, it is a preset.
(I hope I'm right on this LOL, I don't have a sub like this)

If you want to use a cascading crossover after this, you can set the
LPF on the Sub to 80hz 24db slope
Set set LPF on the sub in ARC to 80hz LPF too
This can be done post calibration so you can switch at any time on the fly to hear the difference

I hope this helps a bit more

Jim
Jim,

First off, again thank you so much for taking time out of your day to help me. You and Mike have been AMAZING!

I want to first preface this with did you see my other note in my last post that I quoted you on? I edited it in so you may not have seen it. I will copy it here just in case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy2Shoes View Post

You can implement a cascading crossover after the calibration,
Jim
I also want to clarify, I thought if I changed anything on the subwoofer itself like turning on the Low Pass Filter, I had to recalibrate? I don't need to at all?

I also set the phase of the subs prior to running the ARC room correction. I have one subwoofer in the front left corner next to the left tower and one subwoofer diagonally across in the right corner right next to the 2 seat home theater chair. The front subwoofer is set to phase 0 and the one in back is set to phase 180. I used an SPL meter and turned through each phase degree to see which phase had the most SPL at the MLP and this is how I got these phase settings for each sub. Sound right?

That was my previous reply. Now let me reply to your recent post.

The FLAT setting is specifically on the ARC calibration software from Anthem AFTER the calibration has ended. You can choose and adjust settings manually to sync with your receiver. It defaults to FLAT (full range mode) but has options to do various other curves like the 4th order, 3rd order, etc. You choose the roll off here. Again, it defaults within ARC to FLAT. I'm assuming because I am running the subs full range with no low pass filter? I haven't tried the calibration with turning the low pass filter to ON on the subs themselves yet because with ARC I calibrate 10 mic positions which takes awhile lol.

So I was basically saying should I choose FLAT since I have the sub defaulted to No low pass filter OR should I choose a different curve like 4th order 24db octave roll off? Or should I save the 4th order for if I set the subs themselves low filter ON to let's say 80hz to match my front speakers.

Can you explain why for movies you would do standard tuning all ports open? I thought for movies I would want the lowest possible deepest hz so down to 13hz with 1 sealed? I have seen all ports open or 1 port sealed and do not know which one sounds better to my ears lol.

I want to mention with this processor it is trickier because I am used to my other denon receiver and xt32. I have no DEQ and with my amp the master volume only needs set to like -22db for loud movies. Since I have no DEQ I should probably just turn the sub up quite a bit for listening at these low levels right? I am assuming so because when calibrating the test tones are really loud with ARC and they probably make it calibrated for master volume 0 like xt32 audyssey.

I was advised by SVS not to use their PEQ when using ARC since it does a hood job but if I absolutely wanted to, I could do it before I ran ARC. I do not think it is needed and leave PEQ OFF on the PB16s.

Thanks for any input as always!!
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post #2297 of 2327 Old 05-25-2020, 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted by iStorm View Post
Jim,

First off, again thank you so much for taking time out of your day to help me. You and Mike have been AMAZING!

I want to first preface this with did you see my other note in my last post that I quoted you on? I edited it in so you may not have seen it. I will copy it here just in case.



I also want to clarify, I thought if I changed anything on the subwoofer itself like turning on the Low Pass Filter, I had to recalibrate? I don't need to at all?

I also set the phase of the subs prior to running the ARC room correction. I have one subwoofer in the front left corner next to the left tower and one subwoofer diagonally across in the right corner right next to the 2 seat home theater chair. The front subwoofer is set to phase 0 and the one in back is set to phase 180. I used an SPL meter and turned through each phase degree to see which phase had the most SPL at the MLP and this is how I got these phase settings for each sub. Sound right?

That was my previous reply. Now let me reply to your recent post.

The FLAT setting is specifically on the ARC calibration software from Anthem AFTER the calibration has ended. You can choose and adjust settings manually to sync with your receiver. It defaults to FLAT (full range mode) but has options to do various other curves like the 4th order, 3rd order, etc. You choose the roll off here. Again, it defaults within ARC to FLAT. I'm assuming because I am running the subs full range with no low pass filter? I haven't tried the calibration with turning the low pass filter to ON on the subs themselves yet because with ARC I calibrate 10 mic positions which takes awhile lol.

So I was basically saying should I choose FLAT since I have the sub defaulted to No low pass filter OR should I choose a different curve like 4th order 24db octave roll off? Or should I save the 4th order for if I set the subs themselves low filter ON to let's say 80hz to match my front speakers.

Can you explain why for movies you would do standard tuning all ports open? I thought for movies I would want the lowest possible deepest hz so down to 13hz with 1 sealed? I have seen all ports open or 1 port sealed and do not know which one sounds better to my ears lol.

I want to mention with this processor it is trickier because I am used to my other denon receiver and xt32. I have no DEQ and with my amp the master volume only needs set to like -22db for loud movies. Since I have no DEQ I should probably just turn the sub up quite a bit for listening at these low levels right? I am assuming so because when calibrating the test tones are really loud with ARC and they probably make it calibrated for master volume 0 like xt32 audyssey.

I was advised by SVS not to use their PEQ when using ARC since it does a hood job but if I absolutely wanted to, I could do it before I ran ARC. I do not think it is needed and leave PEQ OFF on the PB16s.

Thanks for any input as always!!

Hey Buddy,

Sorry had to go to bed, I'm on Irish time Thanks for the compliment, although Mike has far more knowledge to this subject than I have I appreciate it

Okay for pre-calibration I think the most important setting is to have the LPF at default which is off. So if this was on when calibrating you will need to recalibrate.
The list on my previous post for pre-calibration is more recommended settings to get the best out of the subs and give ARC something more to work with.

The position of your subs is a tricky one giving that ARC doesn't assign distances to the subs. Form the setup you have it would make sense that the back sub would be 180 to bring in with polarity with the front sub. But you would really need to verify this in REW as this is a important part to get right.

I understand now what you mean with the term flat and is a setting for ARC not the SVS App. Giving that you have you have calibrated with the LPF= off on the SVS App, ARC is in full control of the sub, which is what we want, no need to re-calibrate . So without having the ARC program in front of me or using it for that matter, it is hard to give you good recommendation on what setting to choose. But to give you a guideline, you want a curve that follows the response of the subs, this should have a natural house curve to them, you may roll them off a little earlier in which you would use the LPF. From my experience you want them at a good SPL from 20-100hz and rolling of from there, this can avoid too much content being outputted in the subs above 100hz(it will still receive this content but the SPL will be lower). This is a bit like Cascading Crossover.

You could choose 80hz as well, but you can try all those setting that you mentioned in the 7th paragraph, they all seem right and you seem to be getting the idea here. In Audyssey you would have not been able to make LPF in the AMP, but you can in ARC so this may negate the reason to ever use the LPF setting in the SVS APP and just leave it on full and let ARC do this.

Ya when I use Dirac, the first feature you miss is DEQ, but this is where you have to use ARC to set up house Curves. It can take some time to get used to new EQ software. The goal at the end for me anyway was to set it up that you will not need to touch the sub gain on either the AVR or the App.
Check out some Harman Curves to get some idea of a curve to go for, it's important that all the speakers follow the same curve especially in the lower regions, you don't want flat speakers and a sub with a house curve, they both need to work together, In Dirac this took me a bit of time to do but I have a sound now that is very true to my speakers with the sub giving that icing on the cake and the backbone for bass heavy scenes. This is my preference I like to hear the sub when it is needed nothing more than this. But this is down to the user on how hot you want the subs to be.

I concur with SVS, let ARC do the PEQ's for you

Sorry I missed a part on the port tuning, again I don't own these subs, which is why I put a question mark on port tunings on the last post, if extended gives a better output down to 18hz by all means go with that

Don't be shy in redoing the calibration, I know it can be a PITA, but this is probably the most important part to get right and having the settings set up pre calibration as regards to the SVS APP might yield better results in the end. You can always cut some peaks that are caused by room gain or naturally by the subs. But you don't want to boost anything if possible, so the better output you get at the start the more you have to work with at the end

All the best

Jim
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Last edited by Jimmy2Shoes; 05-25-2020 at 02:12 AM.
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post #2298 of 2327 Old 05-25-2020, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
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^^^

Jim already gave great advice and problem-solving assistance here. But, I can imagine other people reading that long exchange of information and thinking how complicated this whole process is. Well, it can be, which is why the Guide is so long. But, the basic principles involved in this are not quite so complicated. And, if we start with those basic principles, we can perform our initial calibrations much more easily.

First, all systems of room calibration and room EQ should be trying to calibrate our master volume to a Reference standard. They should also be trying to make all of our individual speakers, and the combined sound of our subwoofers, play at the same volume level. In addition, they should be trying to make individual frequencies played by our speakers, and by our combined subwoofers, play at the same volume. That's it in a nutshell! Every channel in our HT system is supposed to play every frequency at the same volume, so that no random frequencies are too loud or too soft.

Second, once a calibration is completed, and room correction has done it's best to achieve a reasonably flat frequency response, we can make any adjustments we want in order to tailor the sound to our own preferences. We can change the crossovers from where they were set by our AVR's. We can adjust the LPF on our subs, or the phase control, or the volume level. We can implement a house curve, or make other PEQ adjustments. We can implement cascading crossovers, or raise the volume on our center channel, or use the tone controls to influence our front speakers. We can use something like DEQ with Audyssey and YPAO. We can do anything we want to influence, and to potentially improve, our sound.

(We can even limit the correction that our automated room EQ will apply, with some systems of room EQ, but that is a separate issue.)

Third, most (or all) subwoofers will come from the factory with default settings which will enable us to perform a reasonably appropriate calibration. The phase will already be set to zero. The subwoofer will typically have the gain set at a nominally appropriate setting. (That will probably need to be adjusted during the level-matching process.) The subwoofer will already be set to play its full volume range. And, if it has multiple port tunes, some standard mode will already be implemented.

Simply starting with those default settings is a good idea. In the case of digital SVS subs, if we aren't sure what the default settings were, we can just power-off and then unplug the power cord of the subwoofer, from the outlet, and it will return to the default settings. FWIW, it actually can be a good idea to EQ a PB16 or a PB4000 in Standard 20Hz (no ports plugged) mode, and then implement the Extended 16Hz (one port plugged) mode after the calibration. You may not want to EQ under 20Hz anyway, and that will prevent it from happening. That way, you won't lose any room gain. This, however, is a YMMV question that may vary depending on the room, and on the listener. You can always try it both ways.

If we understand the basic principles involved, the details of how we perform those initial calibrations will fall into place more easily. Later, as we understand our own rooms and HT systems better, we can become more sophisticated in our use of PEQ, and in our application of settings. But, the initial calibration attempts don't have to be extremely complicated. Starting with the factory default settings in our subwoofers will enable our AVR's to do most of the initial work.

I hope that this more general explanation helps!

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #2299 of 2327 Old 05-25-2020, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy2Shoes View Post
Hey Buddy,

Sorry had to go to bed, I'm on Irish time Thanks for the compliment, although Mike has far more knowledge to this subject than I have I appreciate it

Okay for pre-calibration I think the most important setting is to have the LPF at default which is off. So if this was on when calibrating you will need to recalibrate.
The list on my previous post for pre-calibration is more recommended settings to get the best out of the subs and give ARC something more to work with.

The position of your subs is a tricky one giving that ARC doesn't assign distances to the subs. Form the setup you have it would make sense that the back sub would be 180 to bring in with polarity with the front sub. But you would really need to verify this in REW as this is a important part to get right.

I understand now what you mean with the term flat and is a setting for ARC not the SVS App. Giving that you have you have calibrated with the LPF= off on the SVS App, ARC is in full control of the sub, which is what we want, no need to re-calibrate . So without having the ARC program in front of me or using it for that matter, it is hard to give you good recommendation on what setting to choose. But to give you a guideline, you want a curve that follows the response of the subs, this should have a natural house curve to them, you may roll them off a little earlier in which you would use the LPF. From my experience you want them at a good SPL from 20-100hz and rolling of from there, this can avoid too much content being outputted in the subs above 100hz(it will still receive this content but the SPL will be lower). This is a bit like Cascading Crossover.

You could choose 80hz as well, but you can try all those setting that you mentioned in the 7th paragraph, they all seem right and you seem to be getting the idea here. In Audyssey you would have not been able to make LPF in the AMP, but you can in ARC so this may negate the reason to ever use the LPF setting in the SVS APP and just leave it on full and let ARC do this.

Ya when I use Dirac, the first feature you miss is DEQ, but this is where you have to use ARC to set up house Curves. It can take some time to get used to new EQ software. The goal at the end for me anyway was to set it up that you will not need to touch the sub gain on either the AVR or the App.
Check out some Harman Curves to get some idea of a curve to go for, it's important that all the speakers follow the same curve especially in the lower regions, you don't want flat speakers and a sub with a house curve, they both need to work together, In Dirac this took me a bit of time to do but I have a sound now that is very true to my speakers with the sub giving that icing on the cake and the backbone for bass heavy scenes. This is my preference I like to hear the sub when it is needed nothing more than this. But this is down to the user on how hot you want the subs to be.

I concur with SVS, let ARC do the PEQ's for you

Sorry I missed a part on the port tuning, again I don't own these subs, which is why I put a question mark on port tunings on the last post, if extended gives a better output down to 18hz by all means go with that

Don't be shy in redoing the calibration, I know it can be a PITA, but this is probably the most important part to get right and having the settings set up pre calibration as regards to the SVS APP might yield better results in the end. You can always cut some peaks that are caused by room gain or naturally by the subs. But you don't want to boost anything if possible, so the better output you get at the start the more you have to work with at the end

All the best

Jim
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
^^^

Jim already gave great advice and problem-solving assistance here. But, I can imagine other people reading that long exchange of information and thinking how complicated this whole process is. Well, it can be, which is why the Guide is so long. But, the basic principles involved in this are not quite so complicated. And, if we start with those basic principles, we can perform our initial calibrations much more easily.

First, all systems of room calibration and room EQ should be trying to calibrate our master volume to a Reference standard. They should also be trying to make all of our individual speakers, and the combined sound of our subwoofers, play at the same volume level. In addition, they should be trying to make individual frequencies played by our speakers, and by our combined subwoofers, play at the same volume. That's it in a nutshell! Every channel in our HT system is supposed to play every frequency at the same volume, so that no random frequencies are too loud or too soft.

Second, once a calibration is completed, and room correction has done it's best to achieve a reasonably flat frequency response, we can make any adjustments we want in order to tailor the sound to our own preferences. We can change the crossovers from where they were set by our AVR's. We can adjust the LPF on our subs, or the phase control, or the volume level. We can implement a house curve, or make other PEQ adjustments. We can implement cascading crossovers, or raise the volume on our center channel, or use the tone controls to influence our front speakers. We can use something like DEQ with Audyssey and YPAO. We can do anything we want to influence, and to potentially improve, our sound.

(We can even limit the correction that our automated room EQ will apply, with some systems of room EQ, but that is a separate issue.)

Third, most (or all) subwoofers will come from the factory with default settings which will enable us to perform a reasonably appropriate calibration. The phase will already be set to zero. The subwoofer will typically have the gain set at a nominally appropriate setting. (That will probably need to be adjusted during the level-matching process.) The subwoofer will already be set to play its full volume range. And, if it has multiple port tunes, some standard mode will already be implemented.

Simply starting with those default settings is a good idea. In the case of digital SVS subs, if we aren't sure what the default settings were, we can just power-off and then unplug the power cord of the subwoofer, from the outlet, and it will return to the default settings. FWIW, it actually can be a good idea to EQ a PB16 or a PB4000 in Standard 20Hz (no ports plugged) mode, and then implement the Extended 16Hz (one port plugged) mode after the calibration. You may not want to EQ under 20Hz anyway, and that will prevent it from happening. That way, you won't lose any room gain. This, however, is a YMMV question that may vary depending on the room, and on the listener. You can always try it both ways.

If we understand the basic principles involved, the details of how we perform those initial calibrations will fall into place more easily. Later, as we understand our own rooms and HT systems better, we can become more sophisticated in our use of PEQ, and in our application of settings. But, the initial calibration attempts don't have to be extremely complicated. Starting with the factory default settings in our subwoofers will enable our AVR's to do most of the initial work.

I hope that this more general explanation helps!

Regards,
Mike
I think it may be easier to respond to you guys together (Jim and Mike).

First off, thank you guys both for taking the time to explain even more detail for my specific situation and also generalized info.

I think the biggest thing that I am confused about is what ARC means by setting the subwoofer to a "Flat" low frequency extension slope. Thus lets you adjust the rate that your subwoofer rolls off at its lowest frequency. ARC states to ONLY change this slope if it DOES NOT match the natural low frequency roll off of the measured response of my subwoofer (My SVS PB16 ULTRAS). The Flat slope means that the Subwoofer plays the FULL RANGE. Coming from Audyssey XT32, is this similar to how Audyssey puts your subwoofer after EQ? Or does it do something like the 4th order where the subwoofer rolls off at 24db per octave?

I understand that for now with initial calibration I should leave the Low Pass Filter (LPF) to OFF which is default to calibrate using ARC (room correction for my new Anthem processor). It sounds like I can later turn on this LPF on the sub itself if I want to play around with setting a cascade crossover let's say of 80hz to roll off the subwoofers earlier to enhance dialogue in movies (I would also change the LPF to LFE inside the receiver to 80hz from the default 120hz if i did this later right? This also wouldn't mess with my calibration that i did through ARC, correct?

Can you guys verify if setting my rear corner sub to phase 180 degrees and the one diagonally on the front wall to phase 0 prior to calibration through ARC is correct? I read an article online (I believe it was an article by the poor audiophile) and this is how it said to setup dual subwoofers prior to running ARC calibration. What I did was sit at the MLP with an SPL meter and play test noise in the processor and which ever phase degree provided the highest SPL was the correct phase to set the subs at prior to running ARC. Both 180 degrees and 0 degrees were like .5db higher than the rest of the degrees so I went with this.

I have also learned that I should calibrate using ARC by leaving ALL PORTS OPEN on the dual subwoofers and leave to standard tuning mode. I can play around with extended mode with extra low end frequency if I wish after calibration since under 20hz isn't as important. I think even in standard mode the subs go down to 16hz or so on these subs. Is there a reason Mike that you would choose all ports open? I watch movies only.

Do you guys have any idea how I should set the manual subwoofer distance for 2 subs? I have looked into REW but I do not have the mini DSP. In my eyes I have two options since this processor runs on a parallel circuit (basically one split subwoofer signal like a y connect..this is the downfall of this processor compared to my denon xt32). I can either take the sub distance of the one in the rear corner next to my couch at about 5 feet from MLP and add it to the one in the front corner of the room at 12 feet and then divide by 2 to get an average OR I can pick the 11 feet distance of the furthest one from the MLP. I have heard both ways but do not know which one is correct because I cannot account for delay like the Denon xt32 does.

I am definitely missing the DEQ setting already because as I mentioned, I am playing the Blurays at around-24db on my receiver and it is REALLY loud at this master volume. I do not feel I am getting enough subwoofer action at this master volume but everything else sounds loud. I am assuming since this processor doesnt have any DEQ setting I just need to run the subs hotter on the subs themselves to compensate? ARC sets the subs to the standard 75db combined at reference levels. They sound great at -16db master volume but not really at -22 to -24db I'll be listening at.

Guys, these are my main questions and concerns right now. I really just want to get this setup and enjoy it. I hope you guys can help answer these questions and look at my troubles.

Thank you much as always Jim and Mike!
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I think it may be easier to respond to you guys together (Jim and Mike).

First off, thank you guys both for taking the time to explain even more detail for my specific situation and also generalized info.

I think the biggest thing that I am confused about is what ARC means by setting the subwoofer to a "Flat" low frequency extension slope. Thus lets you adjust the rate that your subwoofer rolls off at its lowest frequency. ARC states to ONLY change this slope if it DOES NOT match the natural low frequency roll off of the measured response of my subwoofer (My SVS PB16 ULTRAS). The Flat slope means that the Subwoofer plays the FULL RANGE. Coming from Audyssey XT32, is this similar to how Audyssey puts your subwoofer after EQ? Or does it do something like the 4th order where the subwoofer rolls off at 24db per octave?

I understand that for now with initial calibration I should leave the Low Pass Filter (LPF) to OFF which is default to calibrate using ARC (room correction for my new Anthem processor). It sounds like I can later turn on this LPF on the sub itself if I want to play around with setting a cascade crossover let's say of 80hz to roll off the subwoofers earlier to enhance dialogue in movies (I would also change the LPF to LFE inside the receiver to 80hz from the default 120hz if i did this later right? This also wouldn't mess with my calibration that i did through ARC, correct?

Can you guys verify if setting my rear corner sub to phase 180 degrees and the one diagonally on the front wall to phase 0 prior to calibration through ARC is correct? I read an article online (I believe it was an article by the poor audiophile) and this is how it said to setup dual subwoofers prior to running ARC calibration. What I did was sit at the MLP with an SPL meter and play test noise in the processor and which ever phase degree provided the highest SPL was the correct phase to set the subs at prior to running ARC. Both 180 degrees and 0 degrees were like .5db higher than the rest of the degrees so I went with this.

I have also learned that I should calibrate using ARC by leaving ALL PORTS OPEN on the dual subwoofers and leave to standard tuning mode. I can play around with extended mode with extra low end frequency if I wish after calibration since under 20hz isn't as important. I think even in standard mode the subs go down to 16hz or so on these subs. Is there a reason Mike that you would choose all ports open? I watch movies only.

Do you guys have any idea how I should set the manual subwoofer distance for 2 subs? I have looked into REW but I do not have the mini DSP. In my eyes I have two options since this processor runs on a parallel circuit (basically one split subwoofer signal like a y connect..this is the downfall of this processor compared to my denon xt32). I can either take the sub distance of the one in the rear corner next to my couch at about 5 feet from MLP and add it to the one in the front corner of the room at 12 feet and then divide by 2 to get an average OR I can pick the 11 feet distance of the furthest one from the MLP. I have heard both ways but do not know which one is correct because I cannot account for delay like the Denon xt32 does.

I am definitely missing the DEQ setting already because as I mentioned, I am playing the Blurays at around-24db on my receiver and it is REALLY loud at this master volume. I do not feel I am getting enough subwoofer action at this master volume but everything else sounds loud. I am assuming since this processor doesnt have any DEQ setting I just need to run the subs hotter on the subs themselves to compensate? ARC sets the subs to the standard 75db combined at reference levels. They sound great at -16db master volume but not really at -22 to -24db I'll be listening at.

Guys, these are my main questions and concerns right now. I really just want to get this setup and enjoy it. I hope you guys can help answer these questions and look at my troubles.

Thank you much as always Jim and Mike!

Hey Buddy,

I think if you don't have independent sub outputs on the Anthem, then a MiniDsp is for sure your best move next, this will solve the phase and distance problem you are having, it would be very hard to say if the phase settings your are using at the moment are correct without looking at a impulse or FR graph.

For the flat setting on the ARC, perhaps a few pictures of that page with settings will help us understand a bit better in how ARC works

For Cascading crossover, as Mike has said perhaps keep the the SVS st stock for the moment and keep it simple, if the system doesn't sound bass heavy, I don't think cascading crossover will help a lot

As I said before when using Dirac I was the same way, I missed DEQ and what it did at lower volumes, ARC is more of a customisable EQ software, so I'm sure you can implement +6db house target curves to the system, it just a matter of figuring out the system, it took me a while with Dirac and I'm sure the ARC thread have some good idea's on how to do this.

BTW if you have REW you can take a measurement of each sub and check to see if they are in polarity using the impulse chart, but your still going to be limited on the distances, which IMO is going to impossible to phase align without a MiniDSp, perhaps Mike has a another idea that I'm not think off

What Mike has said in the last post is important and perhaps we can overthink things and get over complicated, sometimes we have step back and get the basics right first, running the SVS App stock is a perfect start, Standard does make sense and gives ARC more info to work with. Maybe look into cascading crossover at a later time, right now your looking for strong impact from them subs, that's the objective and fine tune from there

All the best

Jim
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Hey Buddy,

I think if you don't have independent sub outputs on the Anthem, then a MiniDsp is for sure your best move next, this will solve the phase and distance problem you are having, it would be very hard to say if the phase settings your are using at the moment are correct without looking at a impulse or FR graph.

For the flat setting on the ARC, perhaps a few pictures of that page with settings will help us understand a bit better in how ARC works

For Cascading crossover, as Mike has said perhaps keep the the SVS st stock for the moment and keep it simple, if the system doesn't sound bass heavy, I don't think cascading crossover will help a lot

As I said before when using Dirac I was the same way, I missed DEQ and what it did at lower volumes, ARC is more of a customisable EQ software, so I'm sure you can implement +6db house target curves to the system, it just a matter of figuring out the system, it took me a while with Dirac and I'm sure the ARC thread have some good idea's on how to do this.

BTW if you have REW you can take a measurement of each sub and check to see if they are in polarity using the impulse chart, but your still going to be limited on the distances, which IMO is going to impossible to phase align without a MiniDSp, perhaps Mike has a another idea that I'm not think off

What Mike has said in the last post is important and perhaps we can overthink things and get over complicated, sometimes we have step back and get the basics right first, running the SVS App stock is a perfect start, Standard does make sense and gives ARC more info to work with. Maybe look into cascading crossover at a later time, right now your looking for strong impact from them subs, that's the objective and fine tune from there

All the best

Jim
Hey Jim!

It definitely sounds like I should invest in a minidsp at some point. I spent most of my funds on this processor and dual pb16s. I am still surprised that a $3000 high end processor decided to have 2 subwoofer XLR outs but made them parallel. I don't understand other than cost cutting which is unfortunate. I do prefer their ARC over Xt32 which is why I was willing to get this one.

If my phase setting is potentially wrong right now should I just leave both subs at default of 0 degrees phase then? I went off of this article that said this is the correct way of handling dual subs prior to ARC calibration: www.pooraudiophile.com/2017/06/how-to-calibrate-dual-subwoofers-anthem-avm-60-mrx.html/amp

I don't have a graph for the Flat setting but here is the info for this on Anthems website. I am just trying to find out if flat *full range subwoofer* is the correct setting with the default on the subwoofers set to LPF OFF or if it matters. I thought 4th order made more sense based on looking at it but I'm an amateur:

"Low-Frequency Extension Slope control allows you to adjust the rate at which your subwoofer rolls off at its lowest frequency. Change the slope only if for some reason ARC's recommendation does not match the natural low-frequency roll-off of the measured response. The left side of the measurement curve is the guideline for shaping the target curve. Do not use this as a means of extending low-frequency output beyond the sub’s capability.

The options are:

Flat (your subwoofer plays full-range)
1st order (rolls-off at 6dB per octave)
2nd order (rolls-off at 12dB per octave)
3rd order (rolls-off at 18dB per octave)
4th order (rolls-off at 24dB per octave)
Etcetera
16th order (rolls-off at 96dB per octave)
For most applications, we recommend setting the slope to match the natural roll off of your subwoofer’s measured response. It is not advised to use a high setting that rapidly rolls off. If you don’t understand how Low-Frequency Extension Slope works, we recommend using the value that the ARC algorithms have calculated"

Thanks for all of the help!
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Hey Jim!

It definitely sounds like I should invest in a minidsp at some point. I spent most of my funds on this processor and dual pb16s. I am still surprised that a $3000 high end processor decided to have 2 subwoofer XLR outs but made them parallel. I don't understand other than cost cutting which is unfortunate. I do prefer their ARC over Xt32 which is why I was willing to get this one.

If my phase setting is potentially wrong right now should I just leave both subs at default of 0 degrees phase then? I went off of this article that said this is the correct way of handling dual subs prior to ARC calibration: www.pooraudiophile.com/2017/06/how-to-calibrate-dual-subwoofers-anthem-avm-60-mrx.html/amp

I don't have a graph for the Flat setting but here is the info for this on Anthems website. I am just trying to find out if flat *full range subwoofer* is the correct setting with the default on the subwoofers set to LPF OFF or if it matters. I thought 4th order made more sense based on looking at it but I'm an amateur:

"Low-Frequency Extension Slope control allows you to adjust the rate at which your subwoofer rolls off at its lowest frequency. Change the slope only if for some reason ARC's recommendation does not match the natural low-frequency roll-off of the measured response. The left side of the measurement curve is the guideline for shaping the target curve. Do not use this as a means of extending low-frequency output beyond the sub’s capability.

The options are:

Flat (your subwoofer plays full-range)

1st order (rolls-off at 6dB per octave)
2nd order (rolls-off at 12dB per octave)
3rd order (rolls-off at 18dB per octave)
4th order (rolls-off at 24dB per octave)
Etcetera
16th order (rolls-off at 96dB per octave)
For most applications, we recommend setting the slope to match the natural roll off of your subwoofer’s measured response. It is not advised to use a high setting that rapidly rolls off. If you don’t understand how Low-Frequency Extension Slope works, we recommend using the value that the ARC algorithms have calculated"

Thanks for all of the help!

Yes!!

Yes, as explained in my earlier post, you want your subwoofer to play full-range during the calibration. So, if ARC has a Flat full-range setting, that is what you want to use during calibration. Any other options need to wait until you are measuring with REW, or for post-calibration adjustments.

This really isn't the right thread, though, to get the best information about specific ARC terminology and settings. The ARC owner's thread will be far more helpful to you as you try to use ARC, and to fine-tune your HT calibration. Here is a direct link to that thread, where you can post questions:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...is-thread.html

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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Yes!!

Yes, as explained in my earlier post, you want your subwoofer to play full-range during the calibration. So, if ARC has a Flat full-range setting, that is what you want to use during calibration. Any other options need to wait until you are measuring with REW, or for post-calibration adjustments.

This really isn't the right thread, though, to get the best information about specific ARC terminology and settings. The ARC owner's thread will be far more helpful to you as you try to use ARC, and to fine-tune your HT calibration. Here is a direct link to that thread, where you can post questions:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...is-thread.html

Regards,
Mike
I understand this and have been posting there. Can you at least tell me if I need to keep the phase to 0 on both subs prior to calibration or is that poor audiophile write up correct to set the back rear sub to 180 degrees? Thanks again. I won't post here for ARC info.
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I understand this and have been posting there. Can you at least tell me if I need to keep the phase to 0 on both subs prior to calibration or is that poor audiophile write up correct to set the back rear sub to 180 degrees? Thanks again. I won't post here for ARC info.

I don't want you to get the wrong impression here. I have helped you in PM's, and I really don't mind helping on this thread. But, both Jim and I just have to guess about some of the specific ARC terms and settings.

The phase issue is a completely separate one, which is common to all AVR's. I would always start with the phase setting on both subs at 0. Cancellation between two subwoofers can sometimes occur if they are on opposing walls, and it can also sometimes occur even if they are on the same wall. If you suspect that cancellation is occurring, you can try your next calibration with the phase reversed on one of your subs. This, like so many things in audio, requires some trial-and-error.

I would like to give some more general advice here, for others who are silently reading along. I think this is an important point! There is a temptation to believe that there is only one right way to do things with our audio systems. If we don't start by doing everything exactly the right way, the very first time we do a calibration, we will screw things up. But, as long as we follow some fairly simple guidelines, that's really not true.

The reality is that every time we change equipment, whether it's new brands or models of AVR's, or new brands or models of subwoofers, we have to learn at least some of what we are doing by trial-and-error. For instance, we try setting the phase on both subs to 0, and some of the subwoofer frequencies seem to be missing when we play low-bass test tones through the subs.

Whoops! Perhaps the subs are cancelling each other. Let me try reversing the phase on one of the subs. Okay, that worked! Now, is it better to do that phase reversal before I run my calibration, or afterwards? Well, let me try it both ways and find out.

If there is a single perfect way to operate every HT system, I wish that somebody would tell us all what it is. For most of us, we will have to start very simply, with default settings as described in my earlier post, and then discover ways to improve on that first try, in subsequent efforts, and with post-calibration settings. The good news is that we can take our time to experiment, learning as we go. We can stop experimenting at any point, when we think that things sound pretty good. And, then pick it up again later, when we feel like experimenting some more.

There may be some people who do one calibration, and they are done. Or, who very quickly find an ideal group of settings, and never try anything else again. But, I don't think that very many of them hang out on AVS, and certainly not on this thread.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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I don't want you to get the wrong impression here. I have helped you in PM's, and I really don't mind helping on this thread. But, both Jim and I just have to guess about some of the specific ARC terms and settings.

The phase issue is a completely separate one, which is common to all AVR's. I would always start with the phase setting on both subs at 0. Cancellation between two subwoofers can sometimes occur if they are on opposing walls, and it can also sometimes occur even if they are on the same wall. If you suspect that cancellation is occurring, you can try your next calibration with the phase reversed on one of your subs. This, like so many things in audio, requires some trial-and-error.

I would like to give some more general advice here, for others who are silently reading along. I think this is an important point! There is a temptation to believe that there is only one right way to do things with our audio systems. If we don't start by doing everything exactly the right way, the very first time we do a calibration, we will screw things up. But, as long as we follow some fairly simple guidelines, that's really not true.

The reality is that every time we change equipment, whether it's new brands or models of AVR's, or new brands or models of subwoofers, we have to learn at least some of what we are doing by trial-and-error. For instance, we try setting the phase on both subs to 0, and some of the subwoofer frequencies seem to be missing when we play low-bass test tones through the subs.

Whoops! Perhaps the subs are cancelling each other. Let me try reversing the phase on one of the subs. Okay, that worked! Now, is it better to do that phase reversal before I run my calibration, or afterwards? Well, let me try it both ways and find out.

If there is a single perfect way to operate every HT system, I wish that somebody would tell us all what it is. For most of us, we will have to start very simply, with default settings as described in my earlier post, and then discover ways to improve on that first try, in subsequent efforts, and with post-calibration settings. The good news is that we can take our time to experiment, learning as we go. We can stop experimenting at any point, when we think that things sound pretty good. And, then pick it up again later, when we feel like experimenting some more.

There may be some people who do one calibration, and they are done. Or, who very quickly find an ideal group of settings, and never try anything else again. But, I don't think that very many of them hang out on AVS, and certainly not on this thread.

Regards,
Mike
Mike,

I greatly appreciate your help and completely understand that some of this is specifically related to ARC specifics and I know this thread is focused more so on Audyseey. While a lot of principles remain the same, the calibration software I use isn't the same so again, I understand that and need to post that in the specific thread specializing in that.

I will say we did a lot of trial and error this weekend. We were able to move some things around in our room to get the 2 pb16ultras to fit on the front stage right next to the towers. It seems that this is going to be MUCH easier to get these subwoofers dialed in with this Anthem processor (especially being parallel circuit). The subs are now on the front stage, equidistant from the MLP so I can set the one subwoofer distance correctly now and have both subs at 0 phase. To put it lightly, the system sounds very very good now and even throughout. While I miss my chair rattling a bit, the sound is much more even. With this being said, I think I have a couple of questions that should be on topic that I hope you can answer.

I know that you prefer having Dynamic EQ off on your system. What's the best way to compensate for not listening anywhere near reference levels? For instance in my calibrated system now I have the master volume at -22 to -24 for bluray movies (I have a clean 7x200w amp which is probably why I do not need the master volume set very high). Since I have no option for Dynamic EQ on this system, would it be best to just up the subwoofer level a bit? I am very happy with the other speakers but since I calibrated the system at reference 0 master volume, the subwoofers are probably very low comparatively. My only concern of course would be when I watch streaming services like Netflix, Hulu, VUDU, etc. Those are so compressed compared to Blurays and you have to set the master volume much higher. I would probably have to set Netflix on master volume-16 to -18 compared to -22 to -24 on a bluray. So if I up the sub volume on my subs equally then it may be perfect for Blurays but way too loud for streaming services. I definitely miss dynamic EQ but I overall think this calibration software did much better at room correcting than xt32.

Thanks for any thoughts!
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Mike,

I greatly appreciate your help and completely understand that some of this is specifically related to ARC specifics and I know this thread is focused more so on Audyseey. While a lot of principles remain the same, the calibration software I use isn't the same so again, I understand that and need to post that in the specific thread specializing in that.

I will say we did a lot of trial and error this weekend. We were able to move some things around in our room to get the 2 pb16ultras to fit on the front stage right next to the towers. It seems that this is going to be MUCH easier to get these subwoofers dialed in with this Anthem processor (especially being parallel circuit). The subs are now on the front stage, equidistant from the MLP so I can set the one subwoofer distance correctly now and have both subs at 0 phase. To put it lightly, the system sounds very very good now and even throughout. While I miss my chair rattling a bit, the sound is much more even. With this being said, I think I have a couple of questions that should be on topic that I hope you can answer.

I know that you prefer having Dynamic EQ off on your system. What's the best way to compensate for not listening anywhere near reference levels? For instance in my calibrated system now I have the master volume at -22 to -24 for bluray movies (I have a clean 7x200w amp which is probably why I do not need the master volume set very high). Since I have no option for Dynamic EQ on this system, would it be best to just up the subwoofer level a bit? I am very happy with the other speakers but since I calibrated the system at reference 0 master volume, the subwoofers are probably very low comparatively. My only concern of course would be when I watch streaming services like Netflix, Hulu, VUDU, etc. Those are so compressed compared to Blurays and you have to set the master volume much higher. I would probably have to set Netflix on master volume-16 to -18 compared to -22 to -24 on a bluray. So if I up the sub volume on my subs equally then it may be perfect for Blurays but way too loud for streaming services. I definitely miss dynamic EQ but I overall think this calibration software did much better at room correcting than xt32.

Thanks for any thoughts!

You are very welcome, and I'm glad that getting the subs to your front soundstage has helped! Let's start with your bass levels for Blu-Rays. I would just add the amount of subwoofer boost that sounds appropriate to you. You probably already know that some movies will be recorded at louder volume levels than others. Dunkirk is a pretty striking example of a very loud movie, with a lot of clipped bass. But there may be others, like Overlord, which are also a little over the top. So, you may find yourself adjusting your MV and bass a bit even with different Blu-Rays.

At -25 MV, DEQ would have added +11dB to the frequencies below about 35Hz, so I wouldn't be afraid to use a 10-12dB (or higher) boost if I were you. If you were adding some subwoofer boost to what DEQ was doing, you might need to account for that too. (DEQ adds +2.2dB per -5 MV to the lowest frequencies.) This really is something that depends more on your personal preferences than on any formula. So, just add sub boost until it sounds right, and back-off a little when it sounds like too much. That's exactly what I do.

Something else that you may enjoy experimenting with is the bass tone control that affects your front speakers. Most AVR's have that feature, and I'm guessing that your Anthem does too. I like using that to balance the mid and upper-bass played by my front speakers, with the lower-bass played by my subwoofers. YMMV!

One of the things that you might consider doing, if your master volume varies widely when going from BR to a streaming or music playback, is to have a couple of different presets for your subs. I haven't experimented with this. I have four subs, so it's easier for me to make on the fly adjustments with the AVR remote, than it is with the SVS app for each sub. But, with two subs, I don't think it would be hard to have a subwoofer volume that corresponded to a -24 MV level in one preset, and a different subwoofer volume that corresponded to a -16 MV level in another preset. As you adjusted your MV, you would also adjust your preset.

You might still have to fine tune the bass occasionally for specific programs, but using presets might make it easier to move fairly seamlessly between the two different master volume levels, while keeping your bass reasonably equivalent. On the other hand, depending on the degree of compression involved, you may find that you need relatively more bass for the streaming broadcasts, anyway. They typically compress the bass more than the other frequencies. You will figure all of this out. It will just take some experimentation.

We are all a little different in the following respect, and there is no right or wrong to any of it. I know that some people really don't like to touch their controls, as they move from one source to another, or from one medium to another. BR versus streaming, for instance, or movies versus music.

Personally, I really don't mind fine-tuning my sound a little in both overall volume level, and in bass level, to suit the content I am listening to, and to suit my own mood that day. I don't always enjoy exactly the same master volume levels, or exactly the same amount of bass every day, even if the programs I listened to remained perfectly constant. And, of course, they don't. I think you will probably find the general equilibrium points which are about right for you, and then you will fine-tune (or not) from there, depending on how you feel that day.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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You are very welcome, and I'm glad that getting the subs to your front soundstage has helped! Let's start with your bass levels for Blu-Rays. I would just add the amount of subwoofer boost that sounds appropriate to you. You probably already know that some movies will be recorded at louder volume levels than others. Dunkirk is a pretty striking example of a very loud movie, with a lot of clipped bass. But there may be others, like Overlord, which are also a little over the top. So, you may find yourself adjusting your MV and bass a bit even with different Blu-Rays.

At -25 MV, DEQ would have added +11dB to the frequencies below about 35Hz, so I wouldn't be afraid to use a 10-12dB (or higher) boost if I were you. If you were adding some subwoofer boost to what DEQ was doing, you might need to account for that too. (DEQ adds +2.2dB per -5 MV to the lowest frequencies.) This really is something that depends more on your personal preferences than on any formula. So, just add sub boost until it sounds right, and back-off a little when it sounds like too much. That's exactly what I do.

Something else that you may enjoy experimenting with is the bass tone control that affects your front speakers. Most AVR's have that feature, and I'm guessing that your Anthem does too. I like using that to balance the mid and upper-bass played by my front speakers, with the lower-bass played by my subwoofers. YMMV!

One of the things that you might consider doing, if your master volume varies widely when going from BR to a streaming or music playback, is to have a couple of different presets for your subs. I haven't experimented with this. I have four subs, so it's easier for me to make on the fly adjustments with the AVR remote, than it is with the SVS app for each sub. But, with two subs, I don't think it would be hard to have a subwoofer volume that corresponded to a -24 MV level in one preset, and a different subwoofer volume that corresponded to a -16 MV level in another preset. As you adjusted your MV, you would also adjust your preset.

You might still have to fine tune the bass occasionally for specific programs, but using presets might make it easier to move fairly seamlessly between the two different master volume levels, while keeping your bass reasonably equivalent. On the other hand, depending on the degree of compression involved, you may find that you need relatively more bass for the streaming broadcasts, anyway. They typically compress the bass more than the other frequencies. You will figure all of this out. It will just take some experimentation.

We are all a little different in the following respect, and there is no right or wrong to any of it. I know that some people really don't like to touch their controls, as they move from one source to another, or from one medium to another. BR versus streaming, for instance, or movies versus music.

Personally, I really don't mind fine-tuning my sound a little in both overall volume level, and in bass level, to suit the content I am listening to, and to suit my own mood that day. I don't always enjoy exactly the same master volume levels, or exactly the same amount of bass every day, even if the programs I listened to remained perfectly constant. And, of course, they don't. I think you will probably find the general equilibrium points which are about right for you, and then you will fine-tune (or not) from there, depending on how you feel that day.

Regards,
Mike
Hey Mike, you have made really good points here! Is the bass tone control you're speaking of a calibration setting or something in the receiver?

When using a receiver to calibrate manually to the 75db how do you setup the test tones inside the AVR to calibrate manually using an SPL meter? Do you set the master volume AND trim level to 0 then use SPL meter? I want to verify all of my speaker and subwoofer levels and ensure they are all at 75db. I'm assuming whether it is ARC or AUDYSSEY the calibration software calibrates every speaker in the system to 75db at master volume 0 right? I remember reading audyssey does a calculation so the test tones aren't as loud compared to ARC which has very loud test tones but I'm assuming they both calibrate to 75db at 0 reference volume.

The reason I'm asking how to do this is because I want to verify my subwoofers calibrated db and also my speakers to ensure they are all at 75db. I just do not know what volume it needs to be when playing test tones. I tried to play the test tones at master volume 0 with where the calibration software set my subwoofers and they are playing at 87db from the MLP at master volume 0 with an AVR trim of -1. This to me means that the using master volume 0 isn't correct because there is no way my subs are at 87db when calibrating. They are both set at only -23 volume a piece!!! SVS was telling me to calibrate with them set to -10 volume which would probably be 105db lol.

But overall, I need to verify everything is set properly to 75db but i don't know what volume that is supposed to be at. If i set volume to 0 and subs at -23 on their dial on the subs and an AVR trim of 0 they are way louder than 75db.

Hope this makes sense. Thanks
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Originally Posted by iStorm View Post
Mike,

I greatly appreciate your help and completely understand that some of this is specifically related to ARC specifics and I know this thread is focused more so on Audyseey. While a lot of principles remain the same, the calibration software I use isn't the same so again, I understand that and need to post that in the specific thread specializing in that.

I will say we did a lot of trial and error this weekend. We were able to move some things around in our room to get the 2 pb16ultras to fit on the front stage right next to the towers. It seems that this is going to be MUCH easier to get these subwoofers dialed in with this Anthem processor (especially being parallel circuit). The subs are now on the front stage, equidistant from the MLP so I can set the one subwoofer distance correctly now and have both subs at 0 phase. To put it lightly, the system sounds very very good now and even throughout. While I miss my chair rattling a bit, the sound is much more even. With this being said, I think I have a couple of questions that should be on topic that I hope you can answer.

I know that you prefer having Dynamic EQ off on your system. What's the best way to compensate for not listening anywhere near reference levels? For instance in my calibrated system now I have the master volume at -22 to -24 for bluray movies (I have a clean 7x200w amp which is probably why I do not need the master volume set very high). Since I have no option for Dynamic EQ on this system, would it be best to just up the subwoofer level a bit? I am very happy with the other speakers but since I calibrated the system at reference 0 master volume, the subwoofers are probably very low comparatively. My only concern of course would be when I watch streaming services like Netflix, Hulu, VUDU, etc. Those are so compressed compared to Blurays and you have to set the master volume much higher. I would probably have to set Netflix on master volume-16 to -18 compared to -22 to -24 on a bluray. So if I up the sub volume on my subs equally then it may be perfect for Blurays but way too loud for streaming services. I definitely miss dynamic EQ but I overall think this calibration software did much better at room correcting than xt32.

Thanks for any thoughts!

Hey Buddy,

Nice move on moving the subs up font, this will for sure eliminate any guessing on the phase as chances are they are in polarity with each other and the distance should ensure better phase relationship between the two.

Mike as always has gave great advice on what could be done next, there is something I would like to add from some-one that used DEQ for a long time and then switched to a different system (Dirac) and loosing this feature. It's important to understand what DEQ does as Mike explained in grat detail in his guide and the in the last post.

As i said before, DEQ was something i missed form the get go when I switched systems. So I had to rethink how I was applying my setting post calibration. Many posts ago I ask Mike did DEQ also boost the bass in the speaker's as well as the subs and the answer was yes. For me this was a very important lesson to learn. What this meant to me was that the subs were following the same boost in curve to the subs which overall gives the system a lot more drive and impact so to speak. For example if I were to turn off DEQ and boost the subs to compensate it never for me felt the same as with DEQ on, I think this is due to the speakers still following a flat cuve and nor using them to their potential. Now this is putting aside the other factors that DEQ does and just observing what it does for bass below reference like -15.

So I applied this thinking to Dirac, which turns out to be a common practice among the community. All speakers have the same target curve applied including the subs which is very important IMO(which is why DEQ works so well). At the moment I have a 4db boost harman curve and for me this works very well and has excellent bass impact.

The point I trying making is that ARC seems to have a ton of features and tweaks that can be done to achieve the same objective and this may take a while to get the grips on how it works. But if you have understanding of DEQ then you can apply this to ARC. I know Mike mentioned using tone control and I was using this for a while in Dirac, but I found if you get the curves right in your post calibration you won't need to use them as you have total control with ARC. This is why it is a more expensive option but more money doesn't equal ease of use, in fact in most cases it's quite the opposite.

To finish I think there is some talented folk over at the ARC Genesis thread that could give some good advice on some good settings to try and experiment with, the link below is one of them on the second post of the page, which seems like a lot of people have got good results with.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...thread-31.html

I hope this helps in your quest for bass glory

All the best

Jim

BTW Re Mike, It would be nice in Audyssey to have the bass control apply to the center channel as well, this I think would be a awesome feature to add for those that don't use DEQ and don't want to mess around with the curve editor.
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Originally Posted by iStorm View Post
Hey Mike, you have made really good points here! Is the bass tone control you're speaking of a calibration setting or something in the receiver?

When using a receiver to calibrate manually to the 75db how do you setup the test tones inside the AVR to calibrate manually using an SPL meter? Do you set the master volume AND trim level to 0 then use SPL meter? I want to verify all of my speaker and subwoofer levels and ensure they are all at 75db. I'm assuming whether it is ARC or AUDYSSEY the calibration software calibrates every speaker in the system to 75db at master volume 0 right? I remember reading audyssey does a calculation so the test tones aren't as loud compared to ARC which has very loud test tones but I'm assuming they both calibrate to 75db at 0 reference volume.

The reason I'm asking how to do this is because I want to verify my subwoofers calibrated db and also my speakers to ensure they are all at 75db. I just do not know what volume it needs to be when playing test tones. I tried to play the test tones at master volume 0 with where the calibration software set my subwoofers and they are playing at 87db from the MLP at master volume 0 with an AVR trim of -1. This to me means that the using master volume 0 isn't correct because there is no way my subs are at 87db when calibrating. They are both set at only -23 volume a piece!!! SVS was telling me to calibrate with them set to -10 volume which would probably be 105db lol.

But overall, I need to verify everything is set properly to 75db but i don't know what volume that is supposed to be at. If i set volume to 0 and subs at -23 on their dial on the subs and an AVR trim of 0 they are way louder than 75db.

Hope this makes sense. Thanks
While I am not sure for the ARC, on models that use Audyssey. It will tell you on your first run, if any of the subs need to adjusted before proceeding using the gain volume. It could be either up or down, by a few dB. If your AVR do not do that, an SPL meter is a good way to get around the problem.

Once done, than you can increase your subs level from your AVR. To achieve your preference amount of bass.
If your AVR do not alloy to do so, you can use the gain volume on the subs. And believe you can also do that from the App, on your PB16.


Darth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iStorm View Post
Hey Mike, you have made really good points here! Is the bass tone control you're speaking of a calibration setting or something in the receiver?

When using a receiver to calibrate manually to the 75db how do you setup the test tones inside the AVR to calibrate manually using an SPL meter? Do you set the master volume AND trim level to 0 then use SPL meter? I want to verify all of my speaker and subwoofer levels and ensure they are all at 75db. I'm assuming whether it is ARC or AUDYSSEY the calibration software calibrates every speaker in the system to 75db at master volume 0 right? I remember reading audyssey does a calculation so the test tones aren't as loud compared to ARC which has very loud test tones but I'm assuming they both calibrate to 75db at 0 reference volume.

The reason I'm asking how to do this is because I want to verify my subwoofers calibrated db and also my speakers to ensure they are all at 75db. I just do not know what volume it needs to be when playing test tones. I tried to play the test tones at master volume 0 with where the calibration software set my subwoofers and they are playing at 87db from the MLP at master volume 0 with an AVR trim of -1. This to me means that the using master volume 0 isn't correct because there is no way my subs are at 87db when calibrating. They are both set at only -23 volume a piece!!! SVS was telling me to calibrate with them set to -10 volume which would probably be 105db lol.

But overall, I need to verify everything is set properly to 75db but i don't know what volume that is supposed to be at. If i set volume to 0 and subs at -23 on their dial on the subs and an AVR trim of 0 they are way louder than 75db.

Hope this makes sense. Thanks
Quick note...Audyssey calibrates for 75dB, but after calibration the master volume at 0 is meant to be Reference of about 85dB average with 105dB peaks, and LFE for 115dB peaks. That's how it is on my Marantz, that "conversion" happens post cal internally.
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