Tactile Transducers + Sub(s) Discussion - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 10 Old 02-27-2018, 10:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Tactile Transducers + Sub(s) Discussion

I spent quite a bit of time researching subs, then making a purchase decision (2xRythmik FV15HP). Then I spent a bunch more time doing a WHOLE lot of learning about frequency response, parametric equalization, and the various software and tools available to me. My "Living Room Home Theater" is basically the entire first floor of my house due the very open floor plan that I have. We're talking upwards of 20,000 cubic feet. So, while the subs are awesome, there is no hope of pressurizing this space without industrial sized, quite frankly ridiculous subwoofers. That's fine. A couple solutions I found were to use a near-field sub, or tactile transducers. So, I turned to tactile transducers. I installed 4x Aurasound Pro Shakers under the floorboards of my couch that is the MLP. I use a iNuke-1000DSP to power them wired in parallel series 2x2. Here is my question:

Is it normal for the tactiles to kind of overpower or diminish the effects that the Rythmik FV15HPs deliver. I have played parts of movies with a lot of LFE with only one or the other on (subs or tactiles) and while there is definitely a unique aspect of the LFE delivered from each, the tactiles are MUCH more apparent due to their nature being to make themselves apparent haha. I wired it by splitting the sub pre-outs from one of my SR6011 outputs to a sub and the other to the Tactiles' amp. Other sub has it's own AVR pre-out.
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| 7.2.4 Photos (Updated Photos 1/5) | Frequency Response | Visual: LG 65” B7A OLED | Elite VMAX-2 Electric 120" | Optoma GT1080 Proj |
| AVR/Amps: Marantz SR-6011 9C | Audio Source AMP-100VS | iNuke 1000DSP; TTs: 4x AuraSound Pro |
| Center: B&W CM Center 2 S2 Ed | Fronts: 2x B&W 684 S1s | Side Surrounds: 2x B&W 685 S1 |
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post #2 of 10 Old 02-27-2018, 12:19 PM
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Tactile Transducers can definitely overpower your subs for tactile response if levels are not kept in check. Ultimately what your striving for is a balance between you subs and tactile transducers that make it feel as one. Another words, you don't really ever want to be watching a movie or movie demo and think, oh yeah this is coming from my TT's and feels weird and unnatural. You want them to make the TR seem like it coming from the subs themselves, or ideally like its not even coming from the subs either, but from what's going on in the movie if that makes sense. But back to what I was saying initially, you don't want the transducers to call attention to themselves at all if you can help it and just act as an extension of your subs, making them feel more powerful. Sometimes easier said than done, and some do this easier than others.

For instance I like Crowson MAs and I like Buttkicker LFE's as well. The MAs just naturally feel like TR that a subwoofer produces, a little more so than the BK LFEs sometimes. But with either (and the MAs ability to feel just like a subs TR), they can draw attention to themselves as well if levels get to high. Also, if they are not time aligned. Time alignment being off will let you know right quick that something is not right and feel very unnatural/artificial feeling. Not good.

I don't have any experience with the Arasound Pro Shakers like you are running, but the same rules will apply to those as well.

I used to be in the exact same boat as you not long ago, with having my HT setup in the first level of my house in the living room. A very open floorplan as well, but only about ~10,000cuft or so compared to your 20,000cuft. The only way I was able to get what I was after was Near Field subs (or Very Near Field in my case) + a Farfield sub + TTs/MAs. For movie soundtracks anyway. For music is was just way to tactile. So I feel ya in trying to get what your after. To be honest though, once I finally got what I was after for movies with that config, it's not really that much different in my 1400cuft room now with everything setup basically the exact same way. Yes I've got more extension now from room gain and more available SPL, but it feels very similar when it comes to tactile and impact/slam. Depending on how I'm running the subs though, room pressure can be a little or a lot more.

Just for thought, I have found that I can run my TTs/MAs higher and still feel natural/balanced when I have a sub right behind the seat firing directly into it, where they compliment each other and both bring it pretty good - versus TTs and just Farfields only. It helps to keep the balance of impact and TR feeling more equal. That said, occasionally the levels on my TTs and MAs will get a little too high in comparison on certain movie tracks, but is easily fixed by turning down their levels. I run them through my Oppo player, so I can control their intensity on the fly fast and easy with the volume control on the Oppo remote. I probably wouldn't ever experience this if I ran them lower and didn't run both right on the edge. I like a lot of intensity, so I run them this way.

I would say maybe just play with the levels on yours TT's at the Master Volumes that you normally listen at (as well as getting the timing lined up with the subs the best you can) and try to get them and your subs feeling as one. Like it's all coming form your subs. They should just make your subs feel more powerful is all.
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My 'Blacked Out' Home Theater | Tactile Response for BASS | BassEQ for Filtered Movies
1400cuft Sealed Room | SY Triple Black Velvet Blackout | GIK Treatments | Denon AVR-X6300H - 7.7.4 Atmos | KEF Q Series Speakers | Epson 5040UB | 120" 16:9 AT Seymour Screen | Oppo 203 | XB1X | ATV4K | 3x 18" Sealed Subs | MEGA HoverBOSS w/6x JBL-12s + 3x 18s | BossBack w/ 1x JBL-12 + 1x BK LFE | 6x Crowson MAs | 4x BK LFEs | MiniDSP 10x10HD

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post #3 of 10 Old 02-27-2018, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
Tactile Transducers can definitely overpower your subs for tactile response if levels are not kept in check. Ultimately what your striving for is a balance between you subs and tactile transducers that make it feel as one. Another words, you don't really ever want to be watching a movie or movie demo and think, oh yeah this is coming from my TT's and feels weird and unnatural. You want them to make the TR seem like it coming from the subs themselves, or ideally like its not even coming from the subs either, but from what's going on in the movie if that makes sense. But back to what I was saying initially, you don't want the transducers to call attention to themselves at all if you can help it and just act as an extension of your subs, making them feel more powerful. Sometimes easier said than done, and some do this easier than others.

For instance I like Crowson MAs and I like Buttkicker LFE's as well. The MAs just naturally feel like TR that a subwoofer produces, a little more so than the BK LFEs sometimes. But with either (and the MAs ability to feel just like a subs TR), they can draw attention to themselves as well if levels get to high. Also, if they are not time aligned. Time alignment being off will let you know right quick that something is not right and feel very unnatural/artificial feeling. Not good.

I don't have any experience with the Arasound Pro Shakers like you are running, but the same rules will apply to those as well.

I used to be in the exact same boat as you not long ago, with having my HT setup in the first level of my house in the living room. A very open floorplan as well, but only about ~10,000cuft or so compared to your 20,000cuft. The only way I was able to get what I was after was Near Field subs (or Very Near Field in my case) + a Farfield sub + TTs/MAs. For movie soundtracks anyway. For music is was just way to tactile. So I feel ya in trying to get what your after. To be honest though, once I finally got what I was after for movies with that config, it's not really that much different in my 1400cuft room now with everything setup basically the exact same way. Yes I've got more extension now from room gain and more available SPL, but it feels very similar when it comes to tactile and impact/slam. Depending on how I'm running the subs though, room pressure can be a little or a lot more.

Just for thought, I have found that I can run my TTs/MAs higher and still feel natural/balanced when I have a sub right behind the seat firing directly into it, where they compliment each other and both bring it pretty good - versus TTs and just Farfields only. It helps to keep the balance of impact and TR feeling more equal. That said, occasionally the levels on my TTs and MAs will get a little too high in comparison on certain movie tracks, but is easily fixed by turning down their levels. I run them through my Oppo player, so I can control their intensity on the fly fast and easy with the volume control on the Oppo remote. I probably wouldn't ever experience this if I ran them lower and didn't run both right on the edge. I like a lot of intensity, so I run them this way.

I would say maybe just play with the levels on yours TT's at the Master Volumes that you normally listen at (as well as getting the timing lined up with the subs the best you can) and try to get them and your subs feeling as one. Like it's all coming form your subs. They should just make your subs feel more powerful is all.
Thanks for the input. Maybe it's just a matter of turning them down a bit. I also brought the PEQ on the amp to bell-curve peek (+3db) at 40hz. Maybe its a matter of dropping that down a bit as well. Due to my room and the fact that my living room is "floating" (sofas in middle of room facing wall with TV), it would be difficult to bring one of the FV15HPs nearfield. I did try before I ran cabling last year, and even if I could, the FR I was getting with one FV15HP to the side of my sofa was awful. It was VERY localized and sort of ruined the effect for me. I'm still holding out hope that a couple years from now I will be able to finish a part of my basement I've earmarked for a dedicated theater.
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| 7.2.4 Photos (Updated Photos 1/5) | Frequency Response | Visual: LG 65” B7A OLED | Elite VMAX-2 Electric 120" | Optoma GT1080 Proj |
| AVR/Amps: Marantz SR-6011 9C | Audio Source AMP-100VS | iNuke 1000DSP; TTs: 4x AuraSound Pro |
| Center: B&W CM Center 2 S2 Ed | Fronts: 2x B&W 684 S1s | Side Surrounds: 2x B&W 685 S1 |
| Front/Rear Heights: 4x Polk T15 | In-Ceiling: 2x Micca M-8C | Subs: 2x Rythmik FV15HP |
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post #4 of 10 Old 02-27-2018, 02:07 PM
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I've never had any of the "shaker" type transducers so can't really comment on that aspect...but, what I can tell you is that my Crowsons (when adjusted correctly) seamlessly integrate with my subs. If I turn the MAs up too much, it can feel out of balance...but never unnatural. Even when cranked, the "shaking" they provide feels like I imagine an earthquake/helicopter rotor/dinosaur stomp/huge explosion/etc would actually feel (depending on what I'm watching at the time).

I think if you stepped up to Crowsons you would be amazed at what they can do.
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post #5 of 10 Old 02-27-2018, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Thanks for the input. Maybe it's just a matter of turning them down a bit. I also brought the PEQ on the amp to bell-curve peek (+3db) at 40hz. Maybe its a matter of dropping that down a bit as well. Due to my room and the fact that my living room is "floating" (sofas in middle of room facing wall with TV), it would be difficult to bring one of the FV15HPs nearfield. I did try before I ran cabling last year, and even if I could, the FR I was getting with one FV15HP to the side of my sofa was awful. It was VERY localized and sort of ruined the effect for me. I'm still holding out hope that a couple years from now I will be able to finish a part of my basement I've earmarked for a dedicated theater.
Yeah not surprising about when you tried the NF beside your couch. When I ran one of my subs on the side of my couch (as an end table), I could localize it as well. Well at least when I was in that seat right by it. Subs Very close have to pretty much be directly behind my seat for me not to be able to localize them (the effect is a lot stronger too). I tried more than a few times but just never did love it, it ruined the effect for me as well. Was also an FV15HP like yours. Fantastic sub. I still really like it.

Yeah more times than not, seating towards the middle of the room and sub nearfield has a bad FR, but still great for TR and then slam (where the FR isn't terrible). The farfield sub(s) can help fill in the bad FR parts though.

Cool about your possible basement dedicated theater in the future. I think you'll love moving into a dedicated room if you can.

I'm sure the Aura's a great, but if you ever tire of them or cant get them to feel right, I agree with Alan P - Crowsons are wonderful and I think you'll be amazed with what they can do if you ever try them. Yes they are expensive, but worth every penny IMO!

My 'Blacked Out' Home Theater | Tactile Response for BASS | BassEQ for Filtered Movies
1400cuft Sealed Room | SY Triple Black Velvet Blackout | GIK Treatments | Denon AVR-X6300H - 7.7.4 Atmos | KEF Q Series Speakers | Epson 5040UB | 120" 16:9 AT Seymour Screen | Oppo 203 | XB1X | ATV4K | 3x 18" Sealed Subs | MEGA HoverBOSS w/6x JBL-12s + 3x 18s | BossBack w/ 1x JBL-12 + 1x BK LFE | 6x Crowson MAs | 4x BK LFEs | MiniDSP 10x10HD
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post #6 of 10 Old 02-28-2018, 05:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah not surprising about when you tried the NF beside your couch. When I ran one of my subs on the side of my couch (as an end table), I could localize it as well. Well at least when I was in that seat right by it. Subs Very close have to pretty much be directly behind my seat for me not to be able to localize them (the effect is a lot stronger too). I tried more than a few times but just never did love it, it ruined the effect for me as well. Was also an FV15HP like yours. Fantastic sub. I still really like it.



Yeah more times than not, seating towards the middle of the room and sub nearfield has a bad FR, but still great for TR and then slam (where the FR isn't terrible). The farfield sub(s) can help fill in the bad FR parts though.



Cool about your possible basement dedicated theater in the future. I think you'll love moving into a dedicated room if you can.



I'm sure the Aura's a great, but if you ever tire of them or cant get them to feel right, I agree with Alan P - Crowsons are wonderful and I think you'll be amazed with what they can do if you ever try them. Yes they are expensive, but worth every penny IMO!


I agree behind the couch would be awesome but because of my setup, there’s no room behind the couch to put them. Behind the couch is the kitchen counter and stools.

I checked out crowsons. I could run a pair of them with my iNuke 1000DSP, but even for just 2 of the actuators it’s almost $1000! Little too rich for my blood at the moment. I did turn the PEQ gain down on the amp running the tactile last night from +4db to +2db and watched 4K DTS:X Lone Survivor. I thought it was better. They weren’t as noticeable and the FV15HPs became more present. I think I’ll leave it like this for a while and see how I like it.

| 7.2.4 Photos (Updated Photos 1/5) | Frequency Response | Visual: LG 65” B7A OLED | Elite VMAX-2 Electric 120" | Optoma GT1080 Proj |
| AVR/Amps: Marantz SR-6011 9C | Audio Source AMP-100VS | iNuke 1000DSP; TTs: 4x AuraSound Pro |
| Center: B&W CM Center 2 S2 Ed | Fronts: 2x B&W 684 S1s | Side Surrounds: 2x B&W 685 S1 |
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post #7 of 10 Old 02-28-2018, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Experimenting this morning and I actually got playback awesome! Turns out I just needed to turn the Rythmik's UP! I read a while ago that messing with the volume knob on the FV15HP after Audyssey calibration was not good and it was better to adjust in AVR. So, I've always calibrated the subs to wind up at -11db. Even after boosting them to -3db or -2db, they still weren't really where I wanted. So, for the first time this morning, I.....turned them up a bit on the volume knob haha. before calibration they were around 10 oclock. Currently they are around 3 oclock. I turned down the AVR trim to -7db and MAN these things are singing now. They are right in step with the Tactiles now and the system basically has new life breathed into it.
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| 7.2.4 Photos (Updated Photos 1/5) | Frequency Response | Visual: LG 65” B7A OLED | Elite VMAX-2 Electric 120" | Optoma GT1080 Proj |
| AVR/Amps: Marantz SR-6011 9C | Audio Source AMP-100VS | iNuke 1000DSP; TTs: 4x AuraSound Pro |
| Center: B&W CM Center 2 S2 Ed | Fronts: 2x B&W 684 S1s | Side Surrounds: 2x B&W 685 S1 |
| Front/Rear Heights: 4x Polk T15 | In-Ceiling: 2x Micca M-8C | Subs: 2x Rythmik FV15HP |
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post #8 of 10 Old 02-28-2018, 09:52 AM
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I agree behind the couch would be awesome but because of my setup, there’s no room behind the couch to put them. Behind the couch is the kitchen counter and stools.

I checked out crowsons. I could run a pair of them with my iNuke 1000DSP, but even for just 2 of the actuators it’s almost $1000! Little too rich for my blood at the moment. I did turn the PEQ gain down on the amp running the tactile last night from +4db to +2db and watched 4K DTS:X Lone Survivor. I thought it was better. They weren’t as noticeable and the FV15HPs became more present. I think I’ll leave it like this for a while and see how I like it.
Yeah, a lot of times seating cant accommodate a sub rigt behind it. And the FV15HP is deep too. Also yep, high price tag on the MAs. If you ever do it though some day, be sure to ask for the 10% AVSforum discount which puts duals about $850. Still a lot, but every little bit can help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Experimenting this morning and I actually got playback awesome! Turns out I just needed to turn the Rythmik's UP! I read a while ago that messing with the volume knob on the FV15HP after Audyssey calibration was not good and it was better to adjust in AVR. So, I've always calibrated the subs to wind up at -11db. Even after boosting them to -3db or -2db, they still weren't really where I wanted. So, for the first time this morning, I.....turned them up a bit on the volume knob haha. before calibration they were around 10 oclock. Currently they are around 3 oclock. I turned down the AVR trim to -7db and MAN these things are singing now. They are right in step with the Tactiles now and the system basically has new life breathed into it.
Awesome, glad to hear that! Yep go with whatever feels best for sure!! Subs not turned up enough can throw things off balance wise too with the TT's going at it strongly.

I find that I like my subs about as high as I can get them (with no TTs or MAs in the mix) so that they feel and sound right. That's usually right up to the edge just before where they can start sounding a little boomy from to much boost and bass overpowering everything, then add in the TTs/MAs. I like doing this with the subs because this is where the midbass chest slam comes from that the TT's cant do, and also the overall impact and weight (although the TT's can and do bring more perceived midbass slam and overall impact (and even weight sometimes)). Then bring the level of feel up even more with the TT's without the bloat and overpowering that can happen with too much boost on the subs. Sometimes even backing the subs off just a hair and bringing up the levels off TT's and or MAs a bit more works great too. Once you find that balance of the two, it can be so good.

A good one I find for this is Pacific Rim (anywhere in the film basically, but the heartbeat scene of the baby Kaiju is fantastic for getting that balance of the two). When you get both subs and TT's levels set right, this scene is just nuts and can feel so big and powerful with them working together. It's right in that 20 to 40hz range the that the majority of powerful LF is in and where most subs and TT's are at there best and are most powerful.

Another couple of great ones for this is basically anywhere in Mad Max Fury Road and in Underworld Awakening in the Large Lycan Scene (Lots of other places too, but this one is a mega powerful one from subs or TT alone. Combine them with the levels being nice and balanced and oh sh**!
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My 'Blacked Out' Home Theater | Tactile Response for BASS | BassEQ for Filtered Movies
1400cuft Sealed Room | SY Triple Black Velvet Blackout | GIK Treatments | Denon AVR-X6300H - 7.7.4 Atmos | KEF Q Series Speakers | Epson 5040UB | 120" 16:9 AT Seymour Screen | Oppo 203 | XB1X | ATV4K | 3x 18" Sealed Subs | MEGA HoverBOSS w/6x JBL-12s + 3x 18s | BossBack w/ 1x JBL-12 + 1x BK LFE | 6x Crowson MAs | 4x BK LFEs | MiniDSP 10x10HD

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post #9 of 10 Old 03-01-2018, 12:36 PM
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I recently added a single BK LFE and a Crown XLS-1002 amp. I was able to blend it with my dual PB12 pluses perfectly and you cant tell where the subs start and the TT end. They definitely add a lot of punch to my system and I still have plenty of headroom. One BK LFE was enough for my medium sized sectional sofa.


BTW I am running the Crown in bridged mode 4 ohms and 1100 watts and a 40hz low pass setting. This amp runs silent and connections were much easier than the iNuke.
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post #10 of 10 Old 03-02-2018, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
I spent quite a bit of time researching subs, then making a purchase decision (2xRythmik FV15HP). Then I spent a bunch more time doing a WHOLE lot of learning about frequency response, parametric equalization, and the various software and tools available to me. My "Living Room Home Theater" is basically the entire first floor of my house due the very open floor plan that I have. We're talking upwards of 20,000 cubic feet. So, while the subs are awesome, there is no hope of pressurizing this space without industrial sized, quite frankly ridiculous subwoofers. That's fine. A couple solutions I found were to use a near-field sub, or tactile transducers. So, I turned to tactile transducers. I installed 4x Aurasound Pro Shakers under the floorboards of my couch that is the MLP. I use a iNuke-1000DSP to power them wired in parallel series 2x2. Here is my question:

Is it normal for the tactiles to kind of overpower or diminish the effects that the Rythmik FV15HPs deliver. I have played parts of movies with a lot of LFE with only one or the other on (subs or tactiles) and while there is definitely a unique aspect of the LFE delivered from each, the tactiles are MUCH more apparent due to their nature being to make themselves apparent haha. I wired it by splitting the sub pre-outs from one of my SR6011 outputs to a sub and the other to the Tactiles' amp. Other sub has it's own AVR pre-out.

Here's my 5 cent about tactile transducers, and for info, I use two BK power by two Outlaw Audio mono amp.


The reason I got them, was to get the old feeling when the subs were on a hard wood floor.
Once, I got my new house. The old subs (two PB12 Plus/2, got replace with two PB13 Ultra), but their new location was on concrete floor over thick carpet, the vibrations in your sitting area was gone


At first, I had them set fairly high.
Over time, after bottoming out a few time on heavy bass moments, I started to tune them down to avoid the bottom out factor. And over time, I re-discover the Love of sound coming from the subs.


I still use them, but are now, set very low.
Just enough, that those Loud and Deep Bass add a little something extra, but the original novelty is now gone, just another tool in the toll box.


So short answer, after a while they can become overwhelming, but still nice to have at moderate setting.


Ray
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Last edited by darthray; 03-02-2018 at 07:03 PM.
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