Help Interpreting Sub Crawl "Results" - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 28Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 49 Old 03-09-2018, 03:21 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
thephatp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 319
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekmoore View Post
Are you using Austin Jerry's Step by Step Guide to REW? That is about as deep as my knowledge goes. Thank you Austin Jerry BTW.

If you want help interpreting them the Audio Theory forum is the place to post your graphs.
Yep, that's the guide I'm using. And agreed, many thanks to him. Having written a user's manual once in the past, I can guarantee he spent a LOT of time putting that guide together.

Thanks for the advice about the Audio Theory forum. I'm going to try to do a bit more research first, and then I'll post something. Thanks!

----------
LG OLED65C7P, LG EG9100, (Retired: Panasonic TH-50PHD8UK)
Denon X4000, B&W 7.1
DM 603 S3 (x2), LCR600 S3, DS3 (x2), 686 S2 (x2), Hsu VTF-3 MK5
Sony UBP-X800, Apple TV 4K, DTV 4K
thephatp is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 49 Old 03-09-2018, 04:18 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
darthray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cold lake Alberta Canada
Posts: 6,277
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2095 Post(s)
Liked: 2982
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekmoore View Post
Our set up is in a great room. She hates hearing the sweeps. So I can only make forward progress when she's not home for several hours.


She does love the results though.

LOL


Now I understand, and my Wife does too


When doing the Audyssey calibration, I normally send my Wife shopping, put away my Cats in the furthest room, turn down the furnace, disconnect the phone line, and unplug the HDMI cable from the projector and use a 6' adapter cable to a mini monitor


All in the name of pure silence during calibration


Ray
Falconsfan71 and derekmoore like this.
darthray is offline  
post #33 of 49 Old 03-10-2018, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
thephatp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 319
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 38
OK, so I've read a little more about REW and interpreting graphs.

Now I'm wondering about how to manually adjust the gain and Q for certain frequencies. Is that not possible to do on AVRs? I have a Denon X4000, but the only things I seem to be able to adjust are the size of the speaker, distance from MLP, and dB per channel (or the crossover frequencies).

If I can't make these adjustments in the receiver, then (aside from room treatments, which I feel I'm a bit far from at this point) is the primary goal to find the place in the room with the flattest response curve?

----------
LG OLED65C7P, LG EG9100, (Retired: Panasonic TH-50PHD8UK)
Denon X4000, B&W 7.1
DM 603 S3 (x2), LCR600 S3, DS3 (x2), 686 S2 (x2), Hsu VTF-3 MK5
Sony UBP-X800, Apple TV 4K, DTV 4K
thephatp is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #34 of 49 Old 03-10-2018, 03:43 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
unretarded's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Ventura Ca
Posts: 4,076
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1686 Post(s)
Liked: 2072
That's why I said REW leads to a minidsp....


Yes, find the flattest spot, but all spots have issues as you will be able to see with REW, a minidsp allows you to correct that as much as possible.......some AVR`s have a sub eq, that allows for minimal changes, but to make any real changes a minidsp is the way to go.

Link to Stereo Integrity SI HT 18 sub build......https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...-pedestal.html
Speakers and subs for sale...https://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-au...kers-subs.html
unretarded is offline  
post #35 of 49 Old 03-10-2018, 04:01 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 974
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 855 Post(s)
Liked: 841
Btw this thread has been pretty helpful. Curious as to what minidsp you are using and how much did it cost?
GeoJustGeo is online now  
post #36 of 49 Old 03-10-2018, 04:06 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
unretarded's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Ventura Ca
Posts: 4,076
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1686 Post(s)
Liked: 2072
Just the cheap one......like 115 plus you buy whatever software package for 10 bucks....there is several available, the 4 way is the most universal software.

Link to Stereo Integrity SI HT 18 sub build......https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...-pedestal.html
Speakers and subs for sale...https://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-au...kers-subs.html
unretarded is offline  
post #37 of 49 Old 03-11-2018, 05:27 AM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: SW FL
Posts: 502
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 287 Post(s)
Liked: 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by thephatp View Post
OK, so I've read a little more about REW and interpreting graphs.

Now I'm wondering about how to manually adjust the gain and Q for certain frequencies. Is that not possible to do on AVRs? I have a Denon X4000, but the only things I seem to be able to adjust are the size of the speaker, distance from MLP, and dB per channel (or the crossover frequencies).

If I can't make these adjustments in the receiver, then (aside from room treatments, which I feel I'm a bit far from at this point) is the primary goal to find the place in the room with the flattest response curve?
Your Denon should allow the use of some manual EQ. I'm sure your AVR has more flexibility to influence the bass frequencies than mine, however after a lot of experimentation and some measuring, I've found I like listing to 2 channel music best in Audyssey L/R Bypass mode. It is providing more EQ in the bass region than my manual EQ allows. Consult your manual on where to find the EQ in your menu options if you want to experiment. Your x4000 may have more LF filters than mine and allow you to address the specific frequencies you're trying to target, but mine did not and Audyssey LR Bypass gave me a flatter response than I could achieve manually. As mentioned above, the next step is probably the MiniDSP 2x4HD but I have not yet pulled the trigger.

5.1: Power - Denon 4308ci, Fronts - Def Tech BP9040's, Center - Def Tech CLR 2000, Surrounds - Def Tech PM1000's, Sub's - Rythmik E15HP x2, Display - Panasonic TC-55AS530U, TT - Rega Planar 2 w/ Dynavector 10x5
derekmoore is offline  
post #38 of 49 Old 03-11-2018, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
thephatp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 319
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekmoore View Post
Your Denon should allow the use of some manual EQ. I'm sure your AVR has more flexibility to influence the bass frequencies than mine, however after a lot of experimentation and some measuring, I've found I like listing to 2 channel music best in Audyssey L/R Bypass mode. It is providing more EQ in the bass region than my manual EQ allows. Consult your manual on where to find the EQ in your menu options if you want to experiment. Your x4000 may have more LF filters than mine and allow you to address the specific frequencies you're trying to target, but mine did not and Audyssey LR Bypass gave me a flatter response than I could achieve manually. As mentioned above, the next step is probably the MiniDSP 2x4HD but I have not yet pulled the trigger.
I figured the same thing--that the AVR would give me some finer level of detail, but I looked at the manual last night and couldn't find anything and got frustrated and posted to make sure. I'm really disappointed in the lack of overall control.

Does Audyssey supposedly do what I'm wanting to do manually (change the Gain and Q based on the measurements it takes)? Or does it only determine the size of speaker and distances to listening position? I've always assumed the former.

----------
LG OLED65C7P, LG EG9100, (Retired: Panasonic TH-50PHD8UK)
Denon X4000, B&W 7.1
DM 603 S3 (x2), LCR600 S3, DS3 (x2), 686 S2 (x2), Hsu VTF-3 MK5
Sony UBP-X800, Apple TV 4K, DTV 4K

Last edited by thephatp; 03-11-2018 at 08:28 PM.
thephatp is offline  
post #39 of 49 Old 03-12-2018, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
thephatp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 319
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by thephatp View Post
Does Audyssey supposedly do what I'm wanting to do manually (change the Gain and Q based on the measurements it takes)? Or does it only determine the size of speaker and distances to listening position? I've always assumed the former.
OK, found the answer to this one myself in the Guide to Subwoofer Calibration, and confirmed via the Graphic EQ control in my Denon settings. The good news is that it does compensate for the adjustments. The bad news is that it doesn't seem I can edit/alter these values to override or further adjust what Audyssey has set.

----------
LG OLED65C7P, LG EG9100, (Retired: Panasonic TH-50PHD8UK)
Denon X4000, B&W 7.1
DM 603 S3 (x2), LCR600 S3, DS3 (x2), 686 S2 (x2), Hsu VTF-3 MK5
Sony UBP-X800, Apple TV 4K, DTV 4K
thephatp is offline  
post #40 of 49 Old 03-12-2018, 01:05 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: SW FL
Posts: 502
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 287 Post(s)
Liked: 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by thephatp View Post
OK, found the answer to this one myself in the Guide to Subwoofer Calibration, and confirmed via the Graphic EQ control in my Denon settings. The good news is that it does compensate for the adjustments. The bad news is that it doesn't seem I can edit/alter these values to override or further adjust what Audyssey has set.
That's true with the Audyssey version I have as well.


I have wondered, when using Audyssey L/R By Pass, if the Denon is using my manual EQ adjustments on the mains, or if it is just leaving all the band pass filter levels flat above a certain frequency? Probably a better question for a different thread however.

5.1: Power - Denon 4308ci, Fronts - Def Tech BP9040's, Center - Def Tech CLR 2000, Surrounds - Def Tech PM1000's, Sub's - Rythmik E15HP x2, Display - Panasonic TC-55AS530U, TT - Rega Planar 2 w/ Dynavector 10x5
derekmoore is offline  
post #41 of 49 Old 03-12-2018, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
thephatp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 319
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekmoore View Post
That's true with the Audyssey version I have as well.


I have wondered, when using Audyssey L/R By Pass, if the Denon is using my manual EQ adjustments on the mains, or if it is just leaving all the band pass filter levels flat above a certain frequency? Probably a better question for a different thread however.
I'm reading through the entirety of the Guide and taking notes on (a) what I need to do for setup/calibration; and (b) things I want to try out later in the settings. I hadn't thought specifically of the L/R By Pass mode, but I'll test that out with other changes I plan to try out. It'll probably be within the week, so whenever I get the answer on that, I'll post back.
unretarded and derekmoore like this.

----------
LG OLED65C7P, LG EG9100, (Retired: Panasonic TH-50PHD8UK)
Denon X4000, B&W 7.1
DM 603 S3 (x2), LCR600 S3, DS3 (x2), 686 S2 (x2), Hsu VTF-3 MK5
Sony UBP-X800, Apple TV 4K, DTV 4K
thephatp is offline  
post #42 of 49 Old 03-12-2018, 03:54 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
unretarded's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Ventura Ca
Posts: 4,076
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1686 Post(s)
Liked: 2072
Now that you have REW set up, have you done any full range sweeps on the mains and center channel ?

Link to Stereo Integrity SI HT 18 sub build......https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...-pedestal.html
Speakers and subs for sale...https://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-au...kers-subs.html
unretarded is offline  
post #43 of 49 Old 03-12-2018, 06:29 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
trilkb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Cincinnati, Oh
Posts: 1,182
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 643 Post(s)
Liked: 324
I for one am glad you did the crawl.

For me I'd pick the position with the cleaner low end bass.

What lcr are you using? Can they play to 60 or 80 hz?

- 6 BA CR6 array center channel, QSC AD-S82 L/R, 4 jbl 8330a surr , 8 jbl 12" subs w/Inuke 6000. JVC rs420, Denon x4000, Sony x800 -
trilkb is online now  
post #44 of 49 Old 03-12-2018, 06:40 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
unretarded's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Ventura Ca
Posts: 4,076
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1686 Post(s)
Liked: 2072
Quote:
Originally Posted by trilkb View Post
I for one am glad you did the crawl.

For me I'd pick the position with the cleaner low end bass.

What lcr are you using? Can they play to 60 or 80 hz?



The recommended cross over is 80-100 on most speakers, I have huge 15 inch woofered mains and still cross them to the sub at 80-100hz.......at 80hz they do not compare in output to a good sub.

Link to Stereo Integrity SI HT 18 sub build......https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...-pedestal.html
Speakers and subs for sale...https://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-au...kers-subs.html
unretarded is offline  
post #45 of 49 Old 03-12-2018, 07:20 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
CherylJosie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,504
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 798 Post(s)
Liked: 323
One thing to watch out for is that the subwoofer placement with the smoothest frequency response is not necessarily the placement with the smoothest and most compatible phase response. After choosing your location you might have to slightly tweak or even reposition the sub to get it to integrate well with the rest of the speakers.

This factor varies depending on which channel you are integrating with the sub and what its phase is like compared to the sub at crossover. You can mitigate this somewhat with 'phase matching bass' if your receiver has it or something like it, or by tweaking crossover frequencies so they occur where the phase match at crossover is good. Your receiver will probably not pay any attention to the phase match and maybe neither will your outboard room EQ since they typically don't measure the integrated response with crossovers enabled after reporting cal results.

For movies I emphasize the integration with the center speaker because that is the speaker where the most content is and problems with its response are the most audible. For music the integration of the l/r seems more important. This might be a factor when choosing between your two best locations, as might your preference in media.

Phase plot with REW with a UMIK might not help you identify the absolute phase difference. There is a way to use a second channel as a timing reference but I have not tried it out and I have gotten conflicting advice whether it works with a UMIK or not. However you can always compare the phase slopes between channels and get some idea where the phase is falling off a cliff, then tweak the crossover based on that information until the integration looks good.

Another thing is that higher crossovers with the sub far from the center speaker can cause audible asymmetry in the sound stage and strange effects such as a saxophone or voice 'singing' from the subwoofer location. Crossovers are not brick-wall filters and some directionally distinguishable frequencies will get through at attenuated level. Depending on how well the integration works out and whether the bass-limited channels have response dips above crossover, the effect can be disturbing. It probably will not be as noticeable with surround channels since they do not 'anchor' the sound stage but it can still happen with them also, plus surround channels might be poorly positioned for bass and need higher crossover.
CherylJosie is offline  
post #46 of 49 Old 03-13-2018, 05:24 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
thephatp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 319
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
Now that you have REW set up, have you done any full range sweeps on the mains and center channel ?
I did (see attachment), but I really need to run Audyssey setup again, and then run REW again (I didn't have long when I was setting it up and haven't had a chance since then to do it b/c of noise in the house). I know I did a few things wrong previously (sat the mic on a pillow; may have set the speakers incorrectly as well, such as FL/FR to large), and I think I may have done it before putting a coffee table in the room. I'm hoping that explains the major dip around 80Hz.

Note that in the attached image, each run was separate, and the 4 graphs are overlaid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trilkb View Post
I for one am glad you did the crawl.

For me I'd pick the position with the cleaner low end bass.

What lcr are you using? Can they play to 60 or 80 hz?
Quote:
Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
The recommended cross over is 80-100 on most speakers, I have huge 15 inch woofered mains and still cross them to the sub at 80-100hz.......at 80hz they do not compare in output to a good sub.
I noticed in my Audyssey settings yesterday that the crossover is set at 40Hz for most channels, which is definitely too low. I'm still not clear on whether or not setting the crossover settings myself will override Audyssey or not. I'm really hoping I can get back to this again this week sometime, because I have so many things to test.

I've started making a list of everything I need to do/want to test so that when I set it up, I can do that. The hard thing is, with a broken leg, I need help moving the sub around, so I can't test for ideal sub locations without my wife around to help me move it.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	LRC full range + SW - Run 1.jpg
Views:	22
Size:	108.8 KB
ID:	2374572  

----------
LG OLED65C7P, LG EG9100, (Retired: Panasonic TH-50PHD8UK)
Denon X4000, B&W 7.1
DM 603 S3 (x2), LCR600 S3, DS3 (x2), 686 S2 (x2), Hsu VTF-3 MK5
Sony UBP-X800, Apple TV 4K, DTV 4K
thephatp is offline  
post #47 of 49 Old 03-13-2018, 06:06 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
unretarded's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Ventura Ca
Posts: 4,076
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1686 Post(s)
Liked: 2072
I am no expert but that dip at 80 is likely room size VS seating position and not easy to get rid of, the good thing is in real world listening it is not a huge deal if unable to eliminate it.


Did you sweep the mains up to 20K.


Once you play around with REW and room correction for a while, my results were that room correction does a excellent job with distance and a good job with level matching......other than that, not soo great.


Does your AVR have EQ for each speaker ? How many bands ?

Does it have EQ for sub, how many bands ?


I found better results setting the EQ for the mains myself and it produced a sound I liked better.

I found best sub results with a Minidsp as most AVR sub EQ`s are pretty limited.

While not rock concert levels, the sub seems to get some room gain and lower extension for what it is.


Next time you get to play around..........set all crossovers to 80hz, disable room correction and do some full sweeps up to 20k, then turn room correction back on and compare.

The best room correction for a sub is location and then DSP/EQ.......


Now that you have REW getting mains dialed in for better sound is also possible...or at least see what they are doing and determine exavctly your preferred sound signature with your speakers in your room.....
thephatp and derekmoore like this.

Link to Stereo Integrity SI HT 18 sub build......https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...-pedestal.html
Speakers and subs for sale...https://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-au...kers-subs.html
unretarded is offline  
post #48 of 49 Old 03-13-2018, 06:12 AM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: SW FL
Posts: 502
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 287 Post(s)
Liked: 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by thephatp View Post
I noticed in my Audyssey settings yesterday that the crossover is set at 40Hz for most channels, which is definitely too low. I'm still not clear on whether or not setting the crossover settings myself will override Audyssey or not. I'm really hoping I can get back to this again this week sometime, because I have so many things to test.
Yes. You will be able to change the crossover settings for each channel without undoing anything else Audyssey may have done. In fact, you should be able to have them set differently for each playback mode if you wanted to for any reason. i.e. if you wanted to run Large with or without a sub, you can set 2 Channel Stereo mode that way, and Dolby PLII, or whatever surround modes, can be xo at 80htz or whatever you prefer.


I just keep my fronts xo at 80htz for playback modes.
thephatp likes this.

5.1: Power - Denon 4308ci, Fronts - Def Tech BP9040's, Center - Def Tech CLR 2000, Surrounds - Def Tech PM1000's, Sub's - Rythmik E15HP x2, Display - Panasonic TC-55AS530U, TT - Rega Planar 2 w/ Dynavector 10x5
derekmoore is offline  
post #49 of 49 Old 03-15-2018, 02:45 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
trilkb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Cincinnati, Oh
Posts: 1,182
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 643 Post(s)
Liked: 324
I was just trying to make sure he wasn't running something for lcr that could only go to 120hz or something. I don't like having a sub play up that high. 80-90 is where mine sits.

A member told me about playing with the subwoofer distance setting and then rerun a sweep. Whatever audyssey or whatever dsp sets it to, try adding distance in 2 foot increments and see if it ever changes. He claimed it helped in the 70hz area. I've yet to mess around and try.

- 6 BA CR6 array center channel, QSC AD-S82 L/R, 4 jbl 8330a surr , 8 jbl 12" subs w/Inuke 6000. JVC rs420, Denon x4000, Sony x800 -
trilkb is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off