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post #1 of 49 Old 03-06-2018, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Question Help Interpreting Sub Crawl "Results"

First off, let me state that this is the first time I've ever done a sub crawl. I was pretty excited to get started. Then I realized it was a lot more "work" on my ears than I thought, and I'm having a hard time interpreting the "results."

Perhaps this is normal, but this is what I found:
  • The 3 best listening positions seemed to be in 3 different corners (but not the 4th corner). I actually expected differently, because I've heard that the corner "isn't ideal." The 4th corner was both quieter and less definition/clarity.
  • The place I really wanted to put it (directly beside my couch as an "end table" for both couches) seemed to be a dead zone. This was sorely disappointing, because that is just wasted space overall. Guess it will continue to be wasted, lol.
  • Louder doesn't mean better, which I'll describe below.
  • The second most desirable position (one of the 3 good corners) was where the bass was the loudest. Ironically, it's only 4 feet away from the dead zone I mentioned above. However, this corner, even though it was the loudest, didn't have as clear definition in the thump, which I discovered after moving around. I couldn't clearly distinguish the "beat" (the thump of each note starting).
  • The other two corners sounded quite similar. One was clearer in the higher bass tones, while the other was clearer in the lower bass tones. Not sure how to choose between the two other than setting up the sub in each place to listen.
  • Pink noise didn't help me at all. It sounded almost the same in every location. I couldn't distinguish any real differences. I wanted to, but I just couldn't.

Can anyone help me understand the following:
  1. What was I supposed to get out of the pink noise test? Should it have sounded differently? I used the tone from audiocheck.
  2. Is it strange that the better locations seemed to be near corners?
  3. Do the results I mention above make sense? May sound like a dumb question, but I have no other experiences to go off of. I kind of expected to be able to find a couple "very clear winners," but there was no "ideal" location--even in the spaces were I cannot put the sub.
  4. Will different subs produce different results in the crawl test? I have a 10" sealed right now. If I upgrade to a 15" ported, could that change where the ideal locations are?
  5. What else should I be listening for?

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post #2 of 49 Old 03-06-2018, 03:32 PM
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Sounds like you need another identical sub and place both subs in those two best corners… Ha ha


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post #3 of 49 Old 03-06-2018, 03:32 PM
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Help Interpreting Sub Crawl "Results"

On a more serious note, it’s something you might just have to experiment with. Maybe someone else will have a better answer for you.


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post #4 of 49 Old 03-06-2018, 03:34 PM
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read the sub stickies

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post #5 of 49 Old 03-06-2018, 03:55 PM
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I found pink noise better suited for SPL meters and REW and a mic.....not soo much for the ears.


Corners are usually louder and louder is usually perceived by the brain as better.


Yes, different subs will sound different and maybe better in different locations, but generally nulls will be nulls and room modes will be room modes.


I found you tube vids of 10 -150 hz tones that played up and down helpful.....then once I mapped out a few locations, some sort of music with lots of repeditive beats in the bass for further researching those spots.


Then I listened for a few days in each spot.


Then I got tired of guessing..........




Picked up a Umik mic and downloaded REW....now no more guessing.
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post #6 of 49 Old 03-06-2018, 04:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falconsfan71 View Post
Sounds like you need another identical sub and place both subs in those two best corners… Ha ha
Stop tempting me, lol. I went from "honey, we need to replace the receiver for me to move to atmos one day, and that would solve all these stupid ARC problems that drive you nuts" (read: ~ $2400), to adding in "we need a new sub, too" (read: + $1000). If I mentioned getting 2 subs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
read the sub stickies
I have been reading through them, and I'm in the middle of "Guid to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences" (have skipped around some in that one), but the only thing I've gleaned from that so far is perhaps my sub is underpowered for my room, and (which I already know) doesn't have the extension I want. If there's something else I should have gotten out of it so far, I missed it.

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Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
I found pink noise better suited for SPL meters and REW and a mic.....not soo much for the ears.
K, I'll rest in that for the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
Corners are usually louder and louder is usually perceived by the brain as better.
I'd heard that, so I was cautious. One corner was not loud and was muddy. Another was really loud, but very muddy. The other two were in between in volume, but clearer.

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Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
Yes, different subs will sound different and maybe better in different locations, but generally nulls will be nulls and room modes will be room modes.
Ok, I won't obsess too much right now, then. I'll save the serious obsession until later.


Quote:
Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
I found you tube vids of 10 -150 hz tones that played up and down helpful.....then once I mapped out a few locations, some sort of music with lots of repeditive beats in the bass for further researching those spots.
That was going to be my next test, but I ran out of time today (and it's tough getting around with a broken leg ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
Then I listened for a few days in each spot. Then I got tired of guessing.......... Picked up a Umik mic and downloaded REW....now no more guessing.
How did that turn out against your crawl test? Did it show a "clear winner" in terms of location? Was it close to any of the previous locations to which you had narrowed it down? Or was it somewhere else completely?

Knowing how I am, I'll eventually do this, too.
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post #7 of 49 Old 03-06-2018, 04:23 PM
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how did you perform the sub crawl? odd you only mention corners....

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post #8 of 49 Old 03-06-2018, 04:29 PM
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Out of the 3 or 4 locations available in most rooms, the crawl did find the better of them. The next step is a minidsp to correct the problems in frequency response which requires a mic and REW........




So the mic and REW helps you find the best spot and shows what is happening at that spot and a minidsp corrects what is wrong with that spot as all spots have something wrong with them. At least there is hope and a end to the rabbit hole once you get tired of moving the sub going I think it sounds better or different......




Mic and REW tells exactly what is happening in each spot and lets you pick the best one and a minidsp lets you correct what is happening wrong in the best spot as much as possible.....
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post #9 of 49 Old 03-06-2018, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thephatp View Post
Stop tempting me, lol. I went from "honey, we need to replace the receiver for me to move to atmos one day, and that would solve all these stupid ARC problems that drive you nuts" (read: ~ $2400), to adding in "we need a new sub, too" (read: + $1000). If I mentioned getting 2 subs...


I have been reading through them, and I'm in the middle of "Guid to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences" (have skipped around some in that one), but the only thing I've gleaned from that so far is perhaps my sub is underpowered for my room, and (which I already know) doesn't have the extension I want. If there's something else I should have gotten out of it so far, I missed it.


K, I'll rest in that for the moment.


I'd heard that, so I was cautious. One corner was not loud and was muddy. Another was really loud, but very muddy. The other two were in between in volume, but clearer.


Ok, I won't obsess too much right now, then. I'll save the serious obsession until later.



That was going to be my next test, but I ran out of time today (and it's tough getting around with a broken leg ).


How did that turn out against your crawl test? Did it show a "clear winner" in terms of location? Was it close to any of the previous locations to which you had narrowed it down? Or was it somewhere else completely?

Knowing how I am, I'll eventually do this, too.
Hi,

I'm glad that you are reading the Guide, although who knows what parts will really help when we read some of this stuff (or when we write it).

I think that the sub crawl is doing just what you wanted it to. You have identified two good locations, which give you a slightly different bass sound quality. I might give each of them some time and see whether either one grows on you more. In the end, it's really a matter of what sounds better to you.

One thing that you can try is to make small shifts in the subwoofer in either of those corner locations, to see whether that makes any difference at all. You probably don't want the subwoofer flush with the wall on both sides, although it might work well that way. Typically, I would expect the sub to give you more clarity, while still getting good boundary reinforcement, if you pull it out far enough so that it has about 3" or 4" of breathing room on the sides. Rotating it slightly may also make a difference.

This is not an exact science, but it sounds to me as if you are making good progress.

Regards,
Mike
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post #10 of 49 Old 03-06-2018, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
read the sub stickies

+1
A very good read to understand how sub/s interact in a room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thephatp View Post
First off, let me state that this is the first time I've ever done a sub crawl. I was pretty excited to get started. Then I realized it was a lot more "work" on my ears than I thought, and I'm having a hard time interpreting the "results."


Perhaps this is normal, but this is what I found:
  • The 3 best listening positions seemed to be in 3 different corners (but not the 4th corner). I actually expected differently, because I've heard that the corner "isn't ideal." The 4th corner was both quieter and less definition/clarity.
  • The place I really wanted to put it (directly beside my couch as an "end table" for both couches) seemed to be a dead zone. This was sorely disappointing, because that is just wasted space overall. Guess it will continue to be wasted, lol.
  • Louder doesn't mean better, which I'll describe below.
  • The second most desirable position (one of the 3 good corners) was where the bass was the loudest. Ironically, it's only 4 feet away from the dead zone I mentioned above. However, this corner, even though it was the loudest, didn't have as clear definition in the thump, which I discovered after moving around. I couldn't clearly distinguish the "beat" (the thump of each note starting).
  • The other two corners sounded quite similar. One was clearer in the higher bass tones, while the other was clearer in the lower bass tones. Not sure how to choose between the two other than setting up the sub in each place to listen.
  • Pink noise didn't help me at all. It sounded almost the same in every location. I couldn't distinguish any real differences. I wanted to, but I just couldn't.

Can anyone help me understand the following:
  1. What was I supposed to get out of the pink noise test? Should it have sounded differently? I used the tone from audiocheck.
  2. Is it strange that the better locations seemed to be near corners?
  3. Do the results I mention above make sense? May sound like a dumb question, but I have no other experiences to go off of. I kind of expected to be able to find a couple "very clear winners," but there was no "ideal" location--even in the spaces were I cannot put the sub.
  4. Will different subs produce different results in the crawl test? I have a 10" sealed right now. If I upgrade to a 15" ported, could that change where the ideal locations are?
  5. What else should I be listening for?

First Thanks for sharing your findings in a very detail way.


I won't be much help in this department
I just know that sub crawl is good way to start, to make sure you do not place the sub in a Null (where the frequencies destroy each other).




For the Sticky mention on the above quote, it is this one;
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post55728560


Ray
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post #11 of 49 Old 03-06-2018, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
how did you perform the sub crawl? odd you only mention corners....
I crawled around almost all of the open space on the floor (b/c of my leg, I didn't crawl in between the couch and the coffee table ), but the room isn't very big and furniture takes up a lot of space. I started in the back corner and went from there to the "end table" open area, back and forth several times, then behind the couch (even though I can't fit it there) over the other order, then along that wall down past the doors to the other corner, then in front of my tv stand, then over to the other wall by the other couch and eventually into the 3rd corner. In all, it took about 1.5 hours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
Out of the 3 or 4 locations available in most rooms, the crawl did find the better of them. The next step is a minidsp to correct the problems in frequency response which requires a mic and REW........

So the mic and REW helps you find the best spot and shows what is happening at that spot and a minidsp corrects what is wrong with that spot as all spots have something wrong with them. At least there is hope and a end to the rabbit hole once you get tired of moving the sub going I think it sounds better or different......

Mic and REW tells exactly what is happening in each spot and lets you pick the best one and a minidsp lets you correct what is happening wrong in the best spot as much as possible.....
Can you record directly from the mic, or do you have to get an interface, as well? The REW website and several places mention buying an interface/sound card for recording, but others have mentioned just the mic and the software.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I'm glad that you are reading the Guide, although who knows what parts will really help when we read some of this stuff (or when we write it).

I think that the sub crawl is doing just what you wanted it to. You have identified two good locations, which give you a slightly different bass sound quality. I might give each of them some time and see whether either one grows on you more. In the end, it's really a matter of what sounds better to you.

One thing that you can try is to make small shifts in the subwoofer in either of those corner locations, to see whether that makes any difference at all. You probably don't want the subwoofer flush with the wall on both sides, although it might work well that way. Typically, I would expect the sub to give you more clarity, while still getting good boundary reinforcement, if you pull it out far enough so that it has about 3" or 4" of breathing room on the sides. Rotating it slightly may also make a difference.

This is not an exact science, but it sounds to me as if you are making good progress.
Thanks, Mike. I actually do have it about 6" from the side wall (side of the sub) and about 4" from the back of the sub to the wall against the TV. So, I've got good space there. I purposefully didn't put it against the wall, but in one of the corners (can't remember which one), getting close to the actually helped a little, so I might move it close just to experiment as you said.

And yes, the guides are helpful, intriguing, etc. In fact, I have to be careful not to spend all night several nights in a row on all this stuff and ignore my wife.

Thanks to everyone's input so far!
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post #12 of 49 Old 03-06-2018, 05:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
For the Sticky mention on the above quote, it is this one;
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post55728560
Yep, that's the one I've been in for a while--lots of good stuff there!
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so you used your ears? I used a spl meter last time i did sub crawl(long time ago). even a cell phone spl app might make it easier.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
Out of the 3 or 4 locations available in most rooms, the crawl did find the better of them. The next step is a minidsp to correct the problems in frequency response which requires a mic and REW........




So the mic and REW helps you find the best spot and shows what is happening at that spot and a minidsp corrects what is wrong with that spot as all spots have something wrong with them. At least there is hope and a end to the rabbit hole once you get tired of moving the sub going I think it sounds better or different......




Mic and REW tells exactly what is happening in each spot and lets you pick the best one and a minidsp lets you correct what is happening wrong in the best spot as much as possible.....

While I do not use this product, I do know that all the Members who does Love-it for the reason highlighted.
So far, I have been lucky with my placements choice, and let the Audyssey X32 take care of the High points and Dips in the frequencies range


Since that I am done for Audio upgrades, I hope for a long time to come.
I may start to look into the REW more, so far the main reason I never did got-it, is when it come to any software from a computer program. I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, and kind of afraid to use such a tool


Ray
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I just plug it into the USB on my cheap laptop.......Umik.....nothing else needed, other than a 20 dollar mic stand, kind of optional and REW installed.

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post #16 of 49 Old 03-06-2018, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
While I do not use this product, I do know that all the Members who does Love-it for the reason highlighted.
So far, I have been lucky with my placements choice, and let the Audyssey X32 take care of the High points and Dips in the frequencies range


Since that I am done for Audio upgrades, I hope for a long time to come.
I may start to look into the REW more, so far the main reason I never did got-it, is when it come to any software from a computer program. I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, and kind of afraid to use such a tool


Ray
Quote:
Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
I just plug it into the USB on my cheap laptop.......Umik.....nothing else needed, other than a 20 dollar mic stand, kind of optional and REW installed.

No problem for the mic stand, I got a boom stand
But, unfortunately I do not have any laptop available, the only one we had, we gave away many years ago


I use a PC for everything and do not even own a cell phone
On the other hand, my wife have an I-pad and a Tablet from Samsung , but not sure if the REW would work on those devise


Ray
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post #17 of 49 Old 03-06-2018, 06:25 PM
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Should work fine on the PC too........
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post #18 of 49 Old 03-06-2018, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
so you used your ears? I used a spl meter last time i did sub crawl(long time ago). even a cell phone spl app might make it easier.
I'll see if there is an app to use--better than nothing for sure.

Quote:
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I just plug it into the USB on my cheap laptop.......Umik.....nothing else needed, other than a 20 dollar mic stand, kind of optional and REW installed.
Good to know. I'll check it out!

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post #19 of 49 Old 03-06-2018, 06:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
Should work fine on the PC too........
Haha! Haven't had a PC for quite a while. I was glad to see earlier that REW wasn't just Windows only. When I was trying to figure out where put my wireless ACs, it seemed like most of the networking tools available for scanning frequencies and such were for PC. It took a bit of searching to find a good Mac alternative.

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post #20 of 49 Old 03-06-2018, 06:30 PM
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rew is available for mac

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post #21 of 49 Old 03-06-2018, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
Should work fine on the PC too........

LOL


Now I have to think about all the logistic involve
Theater in the lower floor, PC on the first floor


But, if there is a Will, it can be done
Maybe 100ft of the cable needed will do-it.


Ray
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post #22 of 49 Old 03-08-2018, 06:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
I just plug it into the USB on my cheap laptop.......Umik.....nothing else needed, other than a 20 dollar mic stand, kind of optional and REW installed.
Welp, I couldn't help myself, although I expected to last longer than 1 day.

I ordered a mic and will get it today, so guess what I'll be doing over the weekend...

Time to learn REW.
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post #23 of 49 Old 03-08-2018, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thephatp View Post
Welp, I couldn't help myself, although I expected to last longer than 1 day.

I ordered a mic and will get it today, so guess what I'll be doing over the weekend...

Time to learn REW.
If you can keep it limited to one weekend I would be very impressed.


FYI, REW has very low WAF.
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post #24 of 49 Old 03-08-2018, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by derekmoore View Post
If you can keep it limited to one weekend I would be very impressed.


FYI, REW has very low WAF.

Why is that?


Ray
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post #25 of 49 Old 03-09-2018, 03:15 AM
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Why is that?


Ray
Our set up is in a great room. She hates hearing the sweeps. So I can only make forward progress when she's not home for several hours.


She does love the results though.
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post #26 of 49 Old 03-09-2018, 07:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by derekmoore View Post
Our set up is in a great room. She hates hearing the sweeps. So I can only make forward progress when she's not home for several hours.


She does love the results though.
My boxer does like the sweeps either. She gets up and frantically runs about in the room for about 5 seconds, then goes out in the hall and growls.
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post #27 of 49 Old 03-09-2018, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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The exciting thing is that I got mic set up, REW installed, and did my first measurements!

The bad thing is, I have no idea with the measurements mean, lol. I didn't realize how much I didn't know. Guess this weekend will entail a lot of reading. But I got started.
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post #28 of 49 Old 03-09-2018, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thephatp View Post
The exciting thing is that I got mic set up, REW installed, and did my first measurements!

The bad thing is, I have no idea with the measurements mean, lol. I didn't realize how much I didn't know. Guess this weekend will entail a lot of reading. But I got started.

Fun stuff.


What did you see on your low frequency sweep?

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post #29 of 49 Old 03-09-2018, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by derekmoore View Post
Fun stuff.

What did you see on your low frequency sweep?
This is where I realize I must not understand even the little that I thought I would. I have no idea why it's showing 87dB at 10Hz, and why there is no significant slope up heading into 20Hz.

Also, the step-by-step guide that I'm going through said the headroom should be between 25dB and 5dB. On my sub, it was consistently 28dB, and for FL and FR, it was 32+dB.

My room noise floor was around 55-56dB, and I did the Pink Noise test, setting the volume to hit 96db prior to running the sweep.
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post #30 of 49 Old 03-09-2018, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thephatp View Post
This is where I realize I must not understand even the little that I thought I would. I have no idea why it's showing 87dB at 10Hz, and why there is no significant slope up heading into 20Hz.

Also, the step-by-step guide that I'm going through said the headroom should be between 25dB and 5dB. On my sub, it was consistently 28dB, and for FL and FR, it was 32+dB.

My room noise floor was around 55-56dB, and I did the Pink Noise test, setting the volume to hit 96db prior to running the sweep.
Are you using Austin Jerry's Step by Step Guide to REW? That is about as deep as my knowledge goes. Thank you Austin Jerry BTW.


If you want help interpreting them the Audio Theory forum is the place to post your graphs.
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