How can I get my subs to go lower?? Dual Paradigm PDR-10 - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 86 Old 03-10-2018, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Contuzzi View Post

Next thing -- try going into manual setup and set Parametric EQ to "through." You might greatly prefer the setup without what Yamaha thinks is proper (which can sound way too lean).
This is the quote that I was referring to. Being as I've never owned a Yamaha, I can't be much help here. But, it does seem like he's talking about EQ.



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post #62 of 86 Old 03-10-2018, 08:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Rowan611 View Post
This is the quote that I was referring to. Being as I've never owned a Yamaha, I can't be much help here. But, it does seem like he's talking about EQ.



Typed on a tiny keyboard, excuse any typos
Hmm okay. I think I recall trying it with the EQ on and off but liking it on better. I'll try it again tomorrow perhaps. It's 11:30pm here and dad/roommate is sleeping in the next room.
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post #63 of 86 Old 03-10-2018, 09:54 PM
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Hey, stop! Don't buy any more subs yet.

Your subs have more juice in them you just aren't letting them loose.

Your "calibration" is not final. Just run the calibration at 1/4 gain on both subs like you have it. Maybe a little higher, like 1/3.

THEN AFTER calibration, you can turn the bass up!!!! Use those gain knobs on the subs to dial in a touch more bass. Use the Subwoofer Level on the receiver to add in a few more dB. Maybe don't go above +5 or so. Go higher till you're happy, just listen to your subs for distortion or bottoming out or too much port noise.

If you replace the subs, you'd still have this same problem. The receiver's calibration is neutering the subs because it is set for a neutral frequency response. Sure, that's what might be good for regular people. But if you have two subs, you probably like some good bass. So that "calibration" is just a suggestion and probably won't give you the thump and/or rumble you crave with any subs.

I think I have my subs set +12dB higher than the "calibration" of my receiver. A lot of people do.

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post #64 of 86 Old 03-11-2018, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey, stop! Don't buy any more subs yet.

Your subs have more juice in them you just aren't letting them loose.

Your "calibration" is not final. Just run the calibration at 1/4 gain on both subs like you have it. Maybe a little higher, like 1/3.

THEN AFTER calibration, you can turn the bass up!!!! Use those gain knobs on the subs to dial in a touch more bass. Use the Subwoofer Level on the receiver to add in a few more dB. Maybe don't go above +5 or so. Go higher till you're happy, just listen to your subs for distortion or bottoming out or too much port noise.

If you replace the subs, you'd still have this same problem. The receiver's calibration is neutering the subs because it is set for a neutral frequency response. Sure, that's what might be good for regular people. But if you have two subs, you probably like some good bass. So that "calibration" is just a suggestion and probably won't give you the thump and/or rumble you crave with any subs.

I think I have my subs set +12dB higher than the "calibration" of my receiver. A lot of people do.
I was always under the assumption that once you set the knobs on the rear of the sub and calibrate that you should leave those alone. Instead just raise or lower the level in the receiver settings. If I set the knob high enough (even at noon) I get the "level error" warning.
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post #65 of 86 Old 03-11-2018, 08:56 AM
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Keep in mind that I'm in Canada so prices are much higher for me. For example that F12 would be $1,255 + 13% tax up here. I was looking at this one though. http://www.rythmikaudio.com/L12.html
Rythmik is having a spring sale (post #33082 ):

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...read-1103.html
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post #66 of 86 Old 03-11-2018, 09:01 AM
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I was always under the assumption that once you set the knobs on the rear of the sub and calibrate that you should leave those alone. Instead just raise or lower the level in the receiver settings. If I set the knob high enough (even at noon) I get the "level error" warning.
I try and use the gain knob on the sub to get the receiver/Audyssey to level match the sub using a negative number on the sub, preferably between -6 and -9. Then I use the receiver's internal trim adjustments to boost the sub level if desired. I have read conflicting reports on what is, in fact, the best practice, but this is what I do and I think its at least consistent with advice I have seen posted by Ed Mullen of SVS and Mark Seaton of Seaton Sound.

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post #67 of 86 Old 03-11-2018, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Rythmik is having a spring sale (post #33082 ):

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...read-1103.html
What about shipping cost? Many of their subs are big and quite heavy.

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I try and use the gain knob on the sub to get the receiver/Audyssey to level match the sub using a negative number on the sub, preferably between -6 and -9. Then I use the receiver's internal trim adjustments to boost the sub level if desired. I have read conflicting reports on what is, in fact, the best practice, but this is what I do and I think its at least consistent with advice I have seen posted by Ed Mullen of SVS and Mark Seaton of Seaton Sound.
How different is Audyssey from Yamaha's YPAO? Also my sub knobs don't have numbers around them (see pic below). Also in the receiver there is sub level and sub trim? What is the difference?
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post #68 of 86 Old 03-11-2018, 12:59 PM
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I can't place the subs in the corners on the same wall as there are doors on both sides of the set up (as seen in the picture I provided in my OP). Even on opposing corners diagonally that still wouldn't be an option.

This is my apartment floor plan. My setup is between the two doorways in the bedroom at the top right. Power outlets are marked with blue dots.
Given the picture, the most obvious beneficial alteration to the room would be to move the system 90 degrees to the wall with the other plug. In addition to allowing more room for the speakers to spread out, the window would now be to the side of the TV, helping with glare issues. I would try that out before doing anything else. Maybe the new position will clean up the sub issues, yet still allow you to have it look pretty (and maybe not, but what harm is there in trying it out)?

BTW, be sure to turn off all modes you may have set up on the receiver (YPAO, Night Mode, whatever). Once you have played with the positions of the speakers and subs and have found a good compromise, then re-run the receiver's processing ...
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post #69 of 86 Old 03-11-2018, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Given the picture, the most obvious beneficial alteration to the room would be to move the system 90 degrees to the wall with the other plug. In addition to allowing more room for the speakers to spread out, the window would now be to the side of the TV, helping with glare issues. I would try that out before doing anything else. Maybe the new position will clean up the sub issues, yet still allow you to have it look pretty (and maybe not, but what harm is there in trying it out)?
Actually with the bedroom door open the space on the other wall with the outlet is the same size as the space between both door ways. I won't be gaining any space by moving the setup there. Plus I wouldn't be able to open the door if I moved the sub or speaker closer to that corner. Also my couch is long enough that it would not fit on the opposite wall across from the setup. I've already thought these options through and measured things out. Appreciate the tip though.
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post #70 of 86 Old 03-11-2018, 01:21 PM
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Actually with the bedroom door open the space on the other wall with the outlet is the same size as the space between both door ways. I won't be gaining any space by moving the setup there. Plus I wouldn't be able to open the door if I moved the sub or speaker closer to that corner. Also my couch is long enough that it would not fit on the opposite wall across from the setup. I've already thought these options through and measured things out. Appreciate the tip though.
Will the couch fit on the wall that currently has the system? If so, you could run the system diagonally in the upper right hand corner of the room (per the pic). Diagonal placement has been known to cure a lot of audio ills ...

Yes, no plug, but you could run an extension cord for the test, and if it works out, find a more permanent solution.

Another option is to get a slightly smaller couch.

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post #71 of 86 Old 03-11-2018, 01:29 PM
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I try and use the gain knob on the sub to get the receiver/Audyssey to level match the sub using a negative number on the sub, preferably between -6 and -9. Then I use the receiver's internal trim adjustments to boost the sub level if desired. I have read conflicting reports on what is, in fact, the best practice, but this is what I do and I think its at least consistent with advice I have seen posted by Ed Mullen of SVS and Mark Seaton of Seaton Sound.
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I was always under the assumption that once you set the knobs on the rear of the sub and calibrate that you should leave those alone. Instead just raise or lower the level in the receiver settings. If I set the knob high enough (even at noon) I get the "level error" warning.

Sure, that is a good way of doing it.

"If I set the knob high enough (even at noon) I get the "level error" warning"
That's only if you run the calibration again, right? So don't, no need to run the calibration again. Everything you do post calibration is personal preference, in my opinion it's fine to use the knobs on the sub for slight adjustment, OR the sub level on the receiver. I use both methods and I don't really think adjusting the knobs is wrong if you're careful.

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post #72 of 86 Old 03-11-2018, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Will the couch fit on the wall that currently has the system? If so, you could run the system diagonally in the upper right hand corner of the room (per the pic). Diagonal placement has been known to cure a lot of audio ills ...

Yes, no plug, but you could run an extension cord for the test, and if it works out, find a more permanent solution.

Another option is to get a slightly smaller couch.
I like to lay down on my couch The floor plan is a corner apartment. So the top and right walls (viewing the plan) are outside walls. The right wall has a big base heater running the whole length of the wall. The other wall I'm weary of placing electronics there as two years in a row now there has been water leaking in from under the baseboards. This building has not been kept up to shape over the years hence my great desire to move somewhere else.

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Sure, that is a good way of doing it.

"If I set the knob high enough (even at noon) I get the "level error" warning"
That's only if you run the calibration again, right? So don't, no need to run the calibration again. Everything you do post calibration is personal preference, in my opinion it's fine to use the knobs on the sub for slight adjustment, OR the sub level on the receiver. I use both methods and I don't really think adjusting the knobs is wrong if you're careful.
Well I may run the calibration again to re-adjust the system accordingly. But perhaps that's my potential "OCD" talking.
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I like to lay down on my couch The floor plan is a corner apartment. So the top and right walls (viewing the plan) are outside walls. The right wall has a big base heater running the whole length of the wall. The other wall I'm weary of placing electronics there as two years in a row now there has been water leaking in from under the baseboards. This building has not been kept up to shape over the years hence my great desire to move somewhere else.



Well I may run the calibration again to re-adjust the system accordingly. But perhaps that's my potential "OCD" talking.
There's nothing "potential" about it!

So, I've run out of ideas. Your plan to move is a good one!

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post #74 of 86 Old 03-11-2018, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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There's nothing "potential" about it!

So, I've run out of ideas. Your plan to move is a good one!
Well I'm 35 y/o and still don't own my own house. I'm quite disappointed. But even a nicer apartment would be okay. I'm in a 3 bedroom + 2 full bath and live with my dad at the moment. Yes I do pay rent so I'm not a freeloader. LOL.
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So I just ran YPAO again with the subs as they are currently. But I turned the volume knob on the sub to between 10 and 11 o'clock. YPAO then set my sub level to -10 which is the lowest it can go. Plus it gave me the W:3 level error again. I came across this thread with the same issue. Perhaps it's a YPAO software issue. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...-problems.html

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post #76 of 86 Old 03-12-2018, 11:04 AM
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Well I may run the calibration again to re-adjust the system accordingly. But perhaps that's my potential "OCD" talking.
I think you'll need to get past your OCD on this one. if you let the calibration have the final word on these settings, you won't get the bass you're looking for.

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So I just ran YPAO again with the subs as they are currently. But I turned the volume knob on the sub to between 10 and 11 o'clock. YPAO then set my sub level to -10 which is the lowest it can go. Plus it gave me the W:3 level error again. I came across this thread with the same issue. Perhaps it's a YPAO software issue. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...-problems.html
Yea, it sounds like W:3 error is just for inconsistencies in the subwoofer level. Not a software issue, just telling you the sub output level is lower or higher than it likes for its calibration. So, go back to setting the volume knob on the subs to 9 o'clock or whatever it was at that made the calibration put the SUB level at +1.5 or so. Then you can use those knobs to add a bit more bass. That's what I would do.

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Have you read @mthomas47 's Subwoofer Guide linked in my sig? I believe you would find it very helpful.


You need to lower the sub gain a bit and re-run YPAO until you get a sub trim that is in range (i.e. not -10). -9 would be perfect, but anything above -10 and below -6 would be acceptable.

In the pic you posted earlier, the crossover setting on the back of your sub is not set to its maximum setting. I'm not sure if that pic depicts the current setting...but if so, you need to change that.

It is perfectly fine to adjust gain on the sub amp after calibration. The only reason it is recommended not to is because it is much easier to know exactly where you are when using the adjustments in the AVR, especially with subs like yours that lack any markings or detents for the gain knobs. A lot of guys on AVS find that adding gain on the sub post-calibration will result in more 'impact' than adding sub trim in the AVR...this has to do with gain structure (explained in the guide I mentioned earlier).
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post #78 of 86 Old 03-12-2018, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
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I think you'll need to get past your OCD on this one. if you let the calibration have the final word on these settings, you won't get the bass you're looking for.



Yea, it sounds like W:3 error is just for inconsistencies in the subwoofer level. Not a software issue, just telling you the sub output level is lower or higher than it likes for its calibration. So, go back to setting the volume knob on the subs to 9 o'clock or whatever it was at that made the calibration put the SUB level at +1.5 or so. Then you can use those knobs to add a bit more bass. That's what I would do.
With the volume knob at "9 o'clock" it set the sub level in the AVR at -6 if I recall. I just raised it to +1.5 afterwards.

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Have you read @mthomas47 's Subwoofer Guide linked in my sig? I believe you would find it very helpful.


You need to lower the sub gain a bit and re-run YPAO until you get a sub trim that is in range (i.e. not -10). -9 would be perfect, but anything above -10 and below -6 would be acceptable.

In the pic you posted earlier, the crossover setting on the back of your sub is not set to its maximum setting. I'm not sure if that pic depicts the current setting...but if so, you need to change that.

It is perfectly fine to adjust gain on the sub amp after calibration. The only reason it is recommended not to is because it is much easier to know exactly where you are when using the adjustments in the AVR, especially with subs like yours that lack any markings or detents for the gain knobs. A lot of guys on AVS find that adding gain on the sub post-calibration will result in more 'impact' than adding sub trim in the AVR...this has to do with gain structure (explained in the guide I mentioned earlier).
I'll check that link when I have some time.

The crossover on the sub is at maximum. Perhaps it is just the angle of the picture.

Yeah it seems easier to just leave the knob alone once it's set and just adjust the level in the AVR. Not sure what trim is compared to level though.
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post #79 of 86 Old 03-13-2018, 05:05 AM
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Where are you in Canada?
Them might not fit your room but I saw this. Dual Paradigm Servo 15's, I had this sub and loved it. Flat down to 22hz then the sub have a filter below that. Down -3 to -4 db at 17hz, but this sub is clean. I paid $450 for mine years ago but sold it for $700. Prices are all over the place for this sub.
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Where are you in Canada?
Them might not fit your room but I saw this. Dual Paradigm Servo 15's, I had this sub and loved it. Flat down to 22hz then the sub have a filter below that. Down -3 to -4 db at 17hz, but this sub is clean. I paid $450 for mine years ago but sold it for $700. Prices are all over the place for this sub.
Thanks for the suggestion. I actually did see that ad but it's pick up only and I don't live near that location. I was emailing back and forth with someone from SVS and they said dual SB-1000 would be plenty for my size room or even a single SB-2000. Either option with their Isolation Feet and it should be a rockin' setup. They also said my current placement for my subs was not an issue.
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What volume levels do you normally listen at? for movies, music, video games or whatever . Also what are you expecting from your bass? what are you hoping to hear, sensation , amount, impact?

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post #82 of 86 Old 03-15-2018, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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What volume levels do you normally listen at? for movies, music, video games or whatever . Also what are you expecting from your bass? what are you hoping to hear, sensation , amount, impact?
I usually listen at ~50 for volume level (0-97 range). That's for both music and movies. For music I want clean tight bass. Nothing boomy. For movies I do like to feel the impact but I do have to consider neighbours as I'm in an apartment building.

I ran YPAO again this morning with the gain knobs at noon and it put the sub level at -10db. I watched Transformers 3 and the bass was pretty sweet overall though there may have been a hint of distortion. I could feel the bass in my couch while i was sitting. But I couldn't lower the sub level as -10db is the lowest it can go in the AVR. Too much bass in the music at that setting.

So I redid the YPAO a 2nd time with the gain knob at ~10 o'clock and the sub level was -8db. I could tell there was not quite as much impact during the movie. But music was a bit better though I raised the sub level to -7db.

I did the YPAO a third time lowering the gain knob a touch more and it set the sub level to -4.5db. Seems much better for music though I lose some impact for movies. I don't listen to bass heavy music too often and I don't want the bass to over power the mids and highs. Guess I can only do so much with 120/360watts (RMS/peak).

YPAO does seem to set the speaker distances weird though. For example now my front right speaker is 16.4ft vs the front left at 9.2ft. The sub distance is just 1 foot. But if I were to use a measuring tape and measure from the respective speaker to the MLP I'd get probably ~10 feet for each sub and 9 feet for the front L/R. But someone had told me I should leave the distance levels alone.
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post #83 of 86 Old 03-15-2018, 08:56 AM
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I usually listen at ~50 for volume level (0-97 range).
So I redid the YPAO a 2nd time with the gain knob at ~10 o'clock and the sub level was -8db.

***

YPAO does seem to set the speaker distances weird though. For example now my front right speaker is 16.4ft vs the front left at 9.2ft. The sub distance is just 1 foot. But if I were to use a measuring tape and measure from the respective speaker to the MLP I'd get probably ~10 feet for each sub and 9 feet for the front L/R. But someone had told me I should leave the distance levels alone.
-8dB is perfect; from there you can adjust the bass level up post-YPAO if you want.

The "distance" setting is not measuring distance; its measuring the time it takes a ping to get from the sub to the mic to set the time delay. If you are running two subs it is measuring both subs summed as one unit unless your YPAO has dual-sub measuring capability. The time measurement does not always correspond to actual distance because some subs have delays caused by the electronics. I would leave the distance levels alone and suspect there is no problem if the distance levels are similar each time you run YPAO.
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post #84 of 86 Old 03-15-2018, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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-8dB is perfect; from there you can adjust the bass level up post-YPAO if you want.

The "distance" setting is not measuring distance; its measuring the time it takes a ping to get from the sub to the mic to set the time delay. If you are running two subs it is measuring both subs summed as one unit unless your YPAO has dual-sub measuring capability. The time measurement does not always correspond to actual distance because some subs have delays caused by the electronics. I would leave the distance levels alone and suspect there is no problem if the distance levels are similar each time you run YPAO.
Well as I mentioned I did the YPAO again and it set the sub level to -4.5db. I still have up to +10db so plenty of room to go and I have more room below if I choose.

Okay I'll leave the distance alone. I did the YPAO with one sub then connected the other and set the gain to match the first one.

Side note: Not sure why Fluance gets such mixed reviews on here for their speakers. I have the entry level set (AVHTB+) and it's really good. I got them used for $100 in excellent condition. By far the best speakers I've ever had. Makes it difficult for me to pull the trigger on an upgrade. Excellent for 2.1 music but also great for movies as well. The pics on their website though must be from an earlier version cause mine have gold plated 5 way binding posts compared to the plastic red and black ones pictured on the website. In any event I'd definitely recommend Fluance for anyone looking for excellent speakers at a good price.

Last edited by Canuck31; 03-15-2018 at 09:24 AM.
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post #85 of 86 Old 03-15-2018, 11:24 AM
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YPAO does seem to set the speaker distances weird though. For example now my front right speaker is 16.4ft vs the front left at 9.2ft. The sub distance is just 1 foot. But if I were to use a measuring tape and measure from the respective speaker to the MLP I'd get probably ~10 feet for each sub and 9 feet for the front L/R. But someone had told me I should leave the distance levels alone.
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I did the YPAO with one sub then connected the other and set the gain to match the first one.
That much of a delay discrepancy between your front speakers usually indicates a phase issue. Are you certain that both speakers are wired correctly, both externally and internally? Is one speaker much closer to a reflective surface than the other?

The YPAO determined sub distance is usually different than the physical distance, but it is usually longer than the physical distance not shorter as you are seeing. Something doesn't seem right there....

Why would you run YPAO with a single sub and then connect the second?? You want YPAO to calibrate the entire subwoofer system.
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That much of a delay discrepancy between your front speakers usually indicates a phase issue. Are you certain that both speakers are wired correctly, both externally and internally? Is one speaker much closer to a reflective surface than the other?

The YPAO determined sub distance is usually different than the physical distance, but it is usually longer than the physical distance not shorter as you are seeing. Something doesn't seem right there....

Why would you run YPAO with a single sub and then connect the second?? You want YPAO to calibrate the entire subwoofer system.
Well I wasn't getting that much of a difference (if any) when I calibrated the first couple of times. It was only the last time I did it. So the connections should be fine. I ran YPAO with a single sub as it was recommended to me either on this forum or possibly Reddit. To me it does make more sense to have both subs connected but I figured I'd do it with just one and see how it went.
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