Which sealed subwoofer out of these 4? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 97 Old 04-05-2018, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
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I've never had anything with a separate amp though. How do you hook it up? Go from the AVR to the amp then from the amp to the subwoofer? I also don't get the lingo on the Submersive page. The first Submersive for $2400 comes with the amp and the 2nd Submersive is only $1200?
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post #62 of 97 Old 04-06-2018, 06:31 AM
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It works the same as plate amp mounted to the back of a sub, except the amp is simply remotely located in the audio rack.

Sub out from AVR -->Amp via RCA or XLR cable. Amp --> driver via speaker wire.
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post #63 of 97 Old 04-06-2018, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slickman View Post
I've never had anything with a separate amp though. How do you hook it up? Go from the AVR to the amp then from the amp to the subwoofer? I also don't get the lingo on the Submersive page. The first Submersive for $2400 comes with the amp and the 2nd Submersive is only $1200?
You may be looking at the master/slave configuration. If so, there's one amp controlling both subwoofers. The lower price for the second unit reflects the fact only the primary has an amplifier.
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post #64 of 97 Old 04-06-2018, 07:55 AM
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The claim that Rythmik's F18 has the lowest distortion at its maximum output levels is technically accurate but does not paint the whole picture.

25Hz and up, the F18 is amp limited in its CEA2010 maximum output. The driver takes every drop of power that Rythmik allows with very low distortion....below that allowed by CEA2010 protocol.

This is likely an intentional design choice by Rythmik that keeps distortion incredibly low even at maximum allowable output of the subwoofer. With more amp power applied, the F18 is certainly capable of producing more maximum SPL even within CEA2010 distortion thresholds. Now, perhaps this difference is only a dB or two...I would assume this is known by Rythmik and they chose to keep distortion extremely low rather than offer the last dB or two of output potential at the expense of higher distortion.

There are other very high quality 18" drivers/subs that offer equal or higher output at equal or lower distortion but honestly splitting hairs Imo. If you look at the BMS18n862 driver, it has more output and lower distortion when you look at its 89.5 volt sweep. So if a manufacturer capped amp output at this level and used this driver in their design, it would have lower distortion and more output than the F18. With nearly unlimited power applied, the BMS18n862 reaches much higher output levels than this while still falling within CEA2010 distortion thresholds. However, this is a very expensive driver and in all fairness, the product cost would be much higher than that of the Rythmik F18.

Another valid comparison Imo: The Captivator S2, with 2 18", higher excursion drivers, has higher distortion at the same output levels as the F18 above 50 Hz. So to me, this does speak volumes about the F18 in terms of having very low distortion. It is in part due to perhaps wisely limiting the amount of power Rythmik chose to push their driver with, but also that distortion is exceptionally low at the recorded output level and considering the price point of the sub.

If the decision were mine from the list of four, I would choose between the S1 and F18. The S1 should have substantially more output, especially below 60Hz. IF dual F18's have more output than you can use at all frequencies, you would have a system with lower distortion.

If size constraints work, I believe Rythmik's F25 would be superior to their F18(Rythmik website shows a 1.5 dB advantage over F18 at 20 Hz but of course this is a VERY limited comparison), and PSA's S3000I should be strongly considered as well.

Last edited by bear123; 04-06-2018 at 08:04 AM.
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post #65 of 97 Old 04-06-2018, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
25Hz and up, the F18 is amp limited in its CEA2010 maximum output. The driver takes every drop of power that Rythmik allows with very low distortion....below that allowed by CEA2010 protocol.

This is likely an intentional design choice by Rythmik that keeps distortion incredibly low even at maximum allowable output of the subwoofer. With more amp power applied, the F18 is certainly capable of producing more maximum SPL even within CEA2010 distortion thresholds. Now, perhaps this difference is only a dB or two...I would assume this is known by Rythmik and they chose to keep distortion extremely low rather than offer the last dB or two of output potential at the expense of higher distortion.


Nice discussion guys and refined point here @bear123 . Probably easier seen with Databass chart below.

To repeat bear123's point: The green section of CEA's report below is "amp limited." In the green windows, the amplifier output is deliberately limited by designer using compressor/limiter, *typically* for fear that driver cannot handle the power, typically to protect the voicecoil from thermal stress, that could lead to thermal compression or meltdown. In this example, Cap S1's designer is able to turn up the juice from the amp and got higher SPL, Rythmik F18's designer, for reasons likely related to ability of driver to handle power, did not.

THD in green windows is "sub-max-threshold" level unless there's note indicating otherwise. IOW whether it's 5% or 10% *arguably* is not important (not audible *enough*, as deemed by CEA). AFAIK and IMHO.


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post #66 of 97 Old 04-06-2018, 11:22 AM
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1)the s1 is smaller, some would say a lot smaller. (about 20-25% smaller).

2)the s1 is using all USA source components versus all china stuff. That may or not matter.

3)look at the long term output too. Some argue that cea-2010(cta-2010-b) is more reflective of real world system demands. Others argue it's long term. Most might say both should be considered in a comparison like this I would reckon? Looking at the long term only the S1(assuming we go by jtr saying it is 5 under the s2) would be 2.5(?)dB more powerful on average from about 10-35hz. But even looking at the entirety of short term the S1 has more than 50% higher output(3.5dB ish). From 20-60hz it is almost 5dB. Without having the headroom available in a listening session it would be very difficult to say whether or not it would provide audible benefits.


Trying to compare distortion is even more difficult. If you're trying to lower the S1 all the way down to the max output of the fv18 you have to compare the compression vs. thd graphs at each specific frequency. Then, you can also argue we would need to break down the distortion components as well. If, for example, everything else is equal but the s1 has a much higher percentage of it's THD in the even order harmonics compared to the fv18...guess what...the s1 will almost always be preferred in listening sessions. But what if the s1 has slightly higher(THD), but a lower percentage of even order harmonics versus odd order(the really nasty sounding harmonics)? It's a lot of fun beach racing but I'd we really need to look at the entire picture. Simply saying " this product has the lowest thd at max output...blah,blah" really tells us nothing at all. It does make for a fun marketing blurb of course. It's like the notion that a servo circuit suddenly increases the system efficiency. Nope. You're just applying whatever boost is needed at a different point in the signal chain. But that's already been explained more than once(by guys like Mark Seaton) too.

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post #67 of 97 Old 04-06-2018, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
The claim that Rythmik's F18 has the lowest distortion at its maximum output levels is technically accurate but does not paint the whole picture.

if dual F18's have more output than you can use at all frequencies, you would have a system with lower distortion.
I would say it paints a misleading picture without proper context.


Same with any sub though. Dual S1 would lower distortion significantly over a single s1 for example. And at some point arguing about distortion levels becomes less about audible benefits and more about marketing blurbs. What difference would 6% versu 3% make in subwoofer performance? Nothing audible that's for sure. But we'll see a bunch of marketing blurbs about it the next day ---but the s1 has DOUBLE the distortion oh the horror! Let's conveniently leave out how dramatic the input signal might be being hard capped by the sub with 3% or how the odd versus even orders break down

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post #68 of 97 Old 04-08-2018, 01:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jeffreybehr View Post
...for a couple years, I didn't hesitate a bit from ordering TWO F18s (only $2800 delivered by the 2s... ...) to be driven by the '.1' channel for movies. The first arrived today; the next in about a week.

I thought about a pair of F25s but then decided to install them under the screen so was limited in height.
Any impressions?
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post #69 of 97 Old 04-08-2018, 02:15 AM
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Any impressions?
Oh yes...WOW! I don't know if the improved bass power and extention is due to being driven by the .1 channel directly or from the larger-driver SW itself, but WOW! THIS is what movies are supposed to sound like. I suppose it'll be even better with two; I'll let you know in maybe a week. ... ...
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post #70 of 97 Old 04-08-2018, 02:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jeffreybehr View Post
Oh yes...WOW! I don't know if the improved bass power and extention is due to being driven by the .1 channel directly or from the larger-driver SW itself, but WOW! THIS is what movies are supposed to sound like. I suppose it'll be even better with two; I'll let you know in maybe a week. ... ...
Nice, thank you. What setting are you using on it? I figured if I got them I would just use the settings they used on Data Bass for it. To be honest when subwoofers have alot of settings that is a negative for me instead of a positive.
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post #71 of 97 Old 04-08-2018, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Slickman View Post
Nice, thank you. What setting are you using on it? I figured if I got them I would just use the settings they used on Data Bass for it. To be honest when subwoofers have alot of settings that is a negative for me instead of a positive.
Well, one result of a machine being flexible is the ability to set it incorrectly, and I've done that many a time in my long life as an audiofool.

I use the LFE input, Mode normal, Limiter on, Volume about 9-o'clock, Rumble Filter off, Extention Freq 14Hz, and Extention Damping Mid. I also use the PEQ to reduce a huge 30Hz peak in my room. All this works VERY well in my room.

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post #72 of 97 Old 04-08-2018, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
I would say it paints a misleading picture without proper context.


Same with any sub though. Dual S1 would lower distortion significantly over a single s1 for example. And at some point arguing about distortion levels becomes less about audible benefits and more about marketing blurbs. What difference would 6% versu 3% make in subwoofer performance? Nothing audible that's for sure. But we'll see a bunch of marketing blurbs about it the next day ---but the s1 has DOUBLE the distortion oh the horror! Let's conveniently leave out how dramatic the input signal might be being hard capped by the sub with 3% or how the odd versus even orders break down

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Thanks for pointing out the fallacy that better "numbers" always translate to better sound. At the end of the day, it's all about how it sounds, not how it measures.

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post #73 of 97 Old 06-04-2018, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all your help guys, I've made my purchase today and it's none of the subs in my original post. I ended up getting dual S3601's.
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post #74 of 97 Old 06-04-2018, 02:00 PM
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post #75 of 97 Old 06-04-2018, 03:15 PM
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SVS coz :

1. Best customer service out of the 3 other subs/brands , not saying the others are bad, but just because every single time anyone has an issue it always gets sorted fast. usually free even if the amp needs to be replaced.
2. App is amazing, no need to go to the sub a million times to adjust the knobs every few days till you get things right, you have presets and lots of things to fiddle with. ALSO comes with a little remote that you could use.
3. Looks wise it wins and has two finishes that you can choose from. love the curved edges , the rock-solid metal grille and the little screen.
4. Much more international dealers if you are out of the US.

Its not always about output when it comes to subs, this is just my opinion.

At the end all 4 are solid choices, i'd recommend give them a listen and see what your ears like!


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post #76 of 97 Old 06-04-2018, 09:21 PM
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Unfortunately the Seaton F18 is too big. I could go 24" high tops but I can't go more than 20" wide. For ported the FV15HP would be in the mix as well. I don't want a sub that doesn't sound great for music though that's why for ported I'm really only looking at Rythmik.
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post #77 of 97 Old 06-04-2018, 09:34 PM
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My living room is 13.5 by 27. There is a 6 ft wide 7 ft high archway into the dining room/kitchen area. Can be seen in the right surround photo. That dining room/kitchen combined room length is parallel with the 27 ft living room. The right side wall at the front 14 ft is in between the kitchen and the theater end of the living room. The archway is to the right of my couch and is open to the dining room end of the kitchen dining room. Behind the couch is the balance of the 27 feet, about 10 feet (6 ft of archway and 4 ft of the balance of the right sidewall. That is where the stereo equipment cabinet is wall hung on the rear wall. All ceilings are 8 ft. I always figured the living room was about 2800 cubic feet and the kitchen/dining room added another 2200 cubic feet. The living room has a foier on the left straight across from the dining room archway at the "stereo" end of the room.5 by 4 but I never usually even count that. Big wall hung cabinet with the stereo electronics and my rear speakers, a pr of JBL L-300 home builts and in between them an 8 cubic ft ported enclosure containing the 18 inch JBL sub under the wall cabinet. Photos below show front and the sides of the room with the archway shown on the right and one rear jbl in the dining room side corner. The screen comes down in front of my 65 inch sony tv. The projector is about in front of my legs on the couch. I moved the couch back to make side room for the side surrounds. Otherwise it would be tight to get to the seats. Place is usually a mess but I've lived alone now for about two years so I don't get upset about it.

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post #78 of 97 Old 06-05-2018, 02:42 PM
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Thanks for all your help guys, I've made my purchase today and it's none of the subs in my original post. I ended up getting dual S3601's.
That’s interesting, since the 18 inch PSAs weren’t really discussed, what led to this consideration?
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post #79 of 97 Old 06-05-2018, 06:21 PM - Thread Starter
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That’s interesting, since the 18 inch PSAs weren’t really discussed, what led to this consideration?
I liked the fact that the dual opposed are inert because my wife likes to put things on top of my subs. The Submersive was too tall for the spots I have and I figured instead of going the S3000i route I'd go overkill and get the S3601. On a side note, I put in a "purchase request" yesterday morning on a competing companies' subs and it's been 2 days with no replies so that made my decision easier too.
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post #80 of 97 Old 06-05-2018, 06:54 PM
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I'm just surprised no one has mentioned DSS Mariana 18 in the mix! Its sealed, small cabinet, powerful, and good looks!
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I liked the fact that the dual opposed are inert because my wife likes to put things on top of my subs. The Submersive was too tall for the spots I have and I figured instead of going the S3000i route I'd go overkill and get the S3601. On a side note, I put in a "purchase request" yesterday morning on a competing companies' subs and it's been 2 days with no replies so that made my decision easier too.
Well, cool I’m sure you’ll love them, I asked cause I’ve been looking at two s1801s versus a S3601. Yeah I’ve been impressed with PSA, SVS and Hsu customer service though the other guys got back to me pretty quick after I sent a follow up email.
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post #82 of 97 Old 06-21-2018, 06:11 AM - Thread Starter
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After owning dual S3601 for a little while I pretty much found out that sealed isn't really my cup of tea so I'm sending them back. I wanted to like them and I feel bad because Tom gave me a great deal but I didn't feel they were that great for movies.
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post #83 of 97 Old 06-21-2018, 06:18 AM
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After owning dual S3601 for a little while I pretty much found out that sealed isn't really my cup of tea so I'm sending them back. I wanted to like them and I feel bad because Tom gave me a great deal but I didn't feel they were that great for movies.
It's better to be honest with yourself than continue the journey than feeling like you settled.

So what are you doing next? Going ported?
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post #84 of 97 Old 06-21-2018, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Slickman View Post
After owning dual S3601 for a little while I pretty much found out that sealed isn't really my cup of tea so I'm sending them back. I wanted to like them and I feel bad because Tom gave me a great deal but I didn't feel they were that great for movies.
What happened? Not enough output?

Have you already made up your mind on replacement?

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post #85 of 97 Old 06-21-2018, 07:01 AM - Thread Starter
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It's better to be honest with yourself than continue the journey than feeling like you settled.

So what are you doing next? Going ported?
Yes just going ported and being done with it, ordered dual PC-4000's. I know SVS gets alot of hate on here nowadays but of all the different companies I've owned(PSA, SVS, HSU, Epik) I like the sound of SVS subs the best. I should've listened to what people told me before, don't worry about what other people say and go with what sounds best to you.
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post #86 of 97 Old 06-21-2018, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Slickman View Post
Yes just going ported and being done with it, ordered dual PC-4000's. I know SVS gets alot of hate on here nowadays but of all the different companies I've owned(PSA, SVS, HSU, Epik) I like the sound of SVS subs the best. I should've listened to what people told me before, don't worry about what other people say and go with what sounds best to you.

Hi,

That was an interesting thread, and an interesting journey which I'm sure you hope is over now. Reading the thread again, from scratch, it occurred to me that someone (like myself) should have suggested ported subs. You mentioned the FV15HP at one point, and I thought of SVS cylinders when you mentioned wanting a small foot print. All the emphasis was on sealed subs, but too many people like the sound of ported subs, for both music and movies, to completely discount the potential sound quality of ported subs in favor of sealed ones.

I will confess that, when I read that you had decided to go with dual S3601's, I liked the fact that you had gone big, and I fully expected you to be satisfied with your choice. From everything I have heard about them, those are very good subwoofers. But, as you noted, sound quality is very subjective, and different people will inevitably like different things. I think that some people especially enjoy the tactile sensations associated with ported subs. Perhaps that was a factor in your decision to return the S3601's and go with the ported PC4000's.

I hope that you will provide an update, once you have the PC4000's, and have had a chance to listen to them for a while. I am always interested in the diversity of preference that we see in this hobby, and the reasons that people may have for preferring one sub over another. I'm sure that others will also be interested in your personal observations of the sealed subs versus the ported subs.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #87 of 97 Old 06-21-2018, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes I will definitely give an update. When I decided the S3601 wasn't for me I was looking at the S1, FV15HP, PB-4000, and PC-4000. To be honest if I could of fit 2 ported Captivators I would've got them in a heartbeat. In the end I decided if I already found a company's subs that I loved the sound of(SVS) then why not just go that route. With the PB-4000 I would've had to buy more accessories to make them fit(right angle power cords and rca adapters). I chatted with SVS and they said the cylinder gives almost identical performance and they recommended to get the cylinders first and if I find them slightly lacking they will take them back so I can get the box versions.
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Last edited by Slickman; 06-21-2018 at 07:52 AM.
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post #88 of 97 Old 06-21-2018, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slickman View Post
Yes just going ported and being done with it, ordered dual PC-4000's. I know SVS gets alot of hate on here nowadays but of all the different companies I've owned(PSA, SVS, HSU, Epik) I like the sound of SVS subs the best. I should've listened to what people told me before, don't worry about what other people say and go with what sounds best to you.
No shame in going with what you know. SVS is a great company to do business with.

DJ

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post #89 of 97 Old 06-21-2018, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slickman View Post
Yes I will definitely give an update. When I decided the S3601 wasn't for me I was looking at the S1, FV15HP, PB-4000, and PC-4000. To be honest if I could of fit 2 ported Captivators I would've got them in a heartbeat. In the end I decided if I already found a company's subs that I loved the sound of(SVS) then why not just go that route. With the PB-4000 I would've had to buy more accessories to make them fit(right angle power cords and rca adapters). I chatted with SVS and they said the cylinder gives almost identical performance and they recommended to get the cylinders first and if I find them slightly lacking they will take them back so I can get the box versions.
SVS is a quality product and the PC-4000 is a unique footprint. I had it on my list too. The app is a differntiator for some people too.

Look forward to your impressions.
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post #90 of 97 Old 06-21-2018, 09:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slickman View Post
Yes I will definitely give an update. When I decided the S3601 wasn't for me I was looking at the S1, FV15HP, PB-4000, and PC-4000. To be honest if I could of fit 2 ported Captivators I would've got them in a heartbeat. In the end I decided if I already found a company's subs that I loved the sound of(SVS) then why not just go that route. With the PB-4000 I would've had to buy more accessories to make them fit(right angle power cords and rca adapters). I chatted with SVS and they said the cylinder gives almost identical performance and they recommended to get the cylinders first and if I find them slightly lacking they will take them back so I can get the box versions.
I think thats the first ive read of someone sending S36's back! Hopefully the PC-4000's will give you what you are looking for , since its no easy task moving these things around. I was a fan of the cylinders , having the PC2000's and PC12+'s before making the jump to bigger drivers. I think the PC2000's actually worked better in my old room than the PC12's , at least until I blew the driver
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