Battle of the 10" subs. HSU VTF-1 MK3 vs. Monolith THX Select 10 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 36 Old 05-17-2018, 11:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Battle of the 10" subs. HSU VTF-1 MK3 vs. Monolith THX Select 10

Now that Audioholics has posted a review with measurements of both subs, we can compare their findings. Both are 10" ported subs that can be configured to also run as sealed with included port plugs.

-Tale of the Tape-
VTF-1 MK3- (H x W x D) 18.5" x 14.5" x 17"/ Amp 250w RMS/ Weight- 42 lbs.
Monolith 10- (H x W x D) 18.9" x 15" x 19.7"/ Amp 500w RMS/ Weight- 72.5 lbs.

-Price/Warranty-
VTF-1 MK3- ($399/$56 shipping) $455/ 7 years woofer, 2 years electronics
Monolith 10- $499.99/free shipping) $499.99/ 5 Year Replacement

-Performance-
VTF-1 (2 open)/ (1 open) Monolith 10 (ported)
16Hz__ ----____ 79.2_____91.3
20Hz__ 90.5____ 93_____ 101.6
25Hz__ 93.2____ 101____ 105.3
31.5Hz 105.6____105.3___106.9
40Hz__ 110.8___ 106.7___107.6
50Hz__ 112_____109.9____107.7
63Hz___112.2___ 110_____107.4
80Hz__ 110.6___ 109.1____107
SPL (dB) 2M RMS

-Bassaholics Room Rating-
VTF-1 MK3 (medium)
Monolith 10 (large)

-A closer look at the drivers-
VTF-1 MK3


Monolith 10 (left driver in 1st pic is the 12")


Full posted reviews.
https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/vtf-1-mk3
https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...lith-10201d-12
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Subs>RBH I-12e/I-12. HSU VTF-15H mk2. Monolith THX 12(x2)/THX 10(x2). XTZ 1X12. SVS PB-1000(x2). Speakers>JBL Studio 530/520c, 270/230/235c/225c, Arena 130/125c. Jamo S807/S803. Pioneer FS52/BS22A/C22. Sony CS3/CS8/CS5. QA 3020i/3090Ci, 2020i/2000c. Monolith AM Cinema 5 bs. Polk RTiA1/CsiA4. Infinity R152. Other Audio>Sony MDR-Z7m2, WH-XB700, XB32, XB31.RBH EP1. Logitech GPro HS. Plantronics RIG 500 Pro HS. LG FH6,RK8,PK5,PH4. UE Boom3.

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post #2 of 36 Old 05-18-2018, 07:45 AM
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Thanks for sharing. No comment on subjective sound, but goodness that Monolith driver looks real good. In a muscular take-no-prisoner sort of way. Check out the dual magnets and seemingly deeper basket in comparison to Hsu (signs of a more capable driver). I also like the thicker metal frame.

I don't know specs but from look alone, it very likely is much more "powerful" driver than Hsu. I am not surprised that CEA numbers reflect this. Both great companies no doubt and competition definitely more intense at this level with Monoprice's entry.

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post #3 of 36 Old 05-18-2018, 08:16 AM
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Hsu more ouput above 40hz, ML10, more extension.

Pick your posion
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post #4 of 36 Old 05-18-2018, 08:47 AM
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Good point, but Hsu behind by 8 dB at 20 Hz is much more significant than Monolith behind by 2 dB at 80.

Also no flame please :-) but look at the weight difference. Monolith's 72 lbs is what I'd call good weight, from amp, heavier driver, or better cabinet construction - any of these is a good sign.

Lots of things you could guess on performance just by looking at the driver and weighing the subwoofer . At any rate very interesting. I don't follow the various choices at this price range but Monolith seems to be very tough competition.

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post #5 of 36 Old 05-18-2018, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Thanks for sharing. No comment on subjective sound, but goodness that Monolith driver looks real good. In a muscular take-no-prisoner sort of way. Check out the dual magnets and seemingly deeper basket in comparison to Hsu (signs of a more capable driver). I also like the thicker metal frame.

I don't know specs but from look alone, it very likely is much more "powerful" driver than Hsu. I am not surprised that CEA numbers reflect this. Both great companies no doubt and competition definitely more intense at this level with Monoprice's entry.
The Monolith 10 uses a cast aluminum basket, while the VTF-1 uses a cheaper stamped steel basket. The Monolith 10" driver is capable of 78mm of peak to peak excursion. That's a lot of excursion capability for a 10" cone. Monoprice has basically thrown down the gauntlet in the "quality" 10" sub market, not to mention the bigger subs in their line. The Monolith 10" driver is a smaller version of the same driver used in the bigger 12" and 15" brothers. To quote Audioholics referring to the 10" and 12" drivers "Both use a similar motor: two stacked 7” diameter, ¾” thick magnets, 2.5” diameter voice coil, 6.5” spider." That's pretty remarkable and impressive, particularly for the 10". I call that 10" driver the "Darth Vader" of drivers, because it's dark and imposing.

Sound quality, of course, is somewhat subjective. I've never auditioned the VTF-1.3, but by the posted Audioholics numbers the Monolith 10 plays with substantially less distortion, hence the THX rating. The Monolith subs play extremely clean and linear. They are just darn good subs.

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post #6 of 36 Old 05-18-2018, 02:40 PM
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The Monolith 10" is targeting hard the SVS PB-1000 market. Where I live (Mexico), it's hard to get quality subs for good prices, similar to Canada, but much worse. The PB-1000 can be had through Amazon Mexico, much most of the quality subs in the price range,, like the Monolith, cannot. Had I the choice, I'd give the Monolith serious consideration, and I'm guessing people looking for a sub in the price range will also. Competition is a good thing, I just wish more people had access to these deals outside the States.

I'm impressed by the specs of this sub, looks like pretty good stuff.

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post #7 of 36 Old 05-18-2018, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmerCa View Post
The Monolith 10" is targeting hard the SVS PB-1000 market. Where I live (Mexico), it's hard to get quality subs for good prices, similar to Canada, but much worse. The PB-1000 can be had through Amazon Mexico, much most of the quality subs in the price range,, like the Monolith, cannot. Had I the choice, I'd give the Monolith serious consideration, and I'm guessing people looking for a sub in the price range will also. Competition is a good thing, I just wish more people had access to these deals outside the States.

I'm impressed by the specs of this sub, looks like pretty good stuff.
Are the Emotiva subs available via in Mexico. I'm guessing its just a matter of time before the Monoliths are available to you. I will ask about it.
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post #8 of 36 Old 05-18-2018, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmerCa View Post
The Monolith 10" is targeting hard the SVS PB-1000 market. Where I live (Mexico), it's hard to get quality subs for good prices, similar to Canada, but much worse. The PB-1000 can be had through Amazon Mexico, much most of the quality subs in the price range,, like the Monolith, cannot. Had I the choice, I'd give the Monolith serious consideration, and I'm guessing people looking for a sub in the price range will also. Competition is a good thing, I just wish more people had access to these deals outside the States.

I'm impressed by the specs of this sub, looks like pretty good stuff.

I live in the "states" and don't have access to most deals.


Shipping on the monolith subs:
15" $572
12" $434

10" $278


Not such a good deal when shipping is 50% or more of the price.

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post #9 of 36 Old 05-18-2018, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post
I live in the "states" and don't have access to most deals.


Shipping on the monolith subs:
15" $572
12" $434

10" $278


Not such a good deal when shipping is 50% or more of the price.
Unfortunately that's one of the prices you pay for living in paradise. That would get old fast having to pay a substantially higher price for everything. I probably would only be able to afford a cheap HTIB in my case.




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post #10 of 36 Old 05-18-2018, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post
I live in the "states" and don't have access to most deals.


Shipping on the monolith subs:
15" $572
12" $434

10" $278


Not such a good deal when shipping is 50% or more of the price.
Have you been surfing any lava flows lately? Kinda scary from what I've seen on the news.

Subs>RBH I-12e/I-12. HSU VTF-15H mk2. Monolith THX 12(x2)/THX 10(x2). XTZ 1X12. SVS PB-1000(x2). Speakers>JBL Studio 530/520c, 270/230/235c/225c, Arena 130/125c. Jamo S807/S803. Pioneer FS52/BS22A/C22. Sony CS3/CS8/CS5. QA 3020i/3090Ci, 2020i/2000c. Monolith AM Cinema 5 bs. Polk RTiA1/CsiA4. Infinity R152. Other Audio>Sony MDR-Z7m2, WH-XB700, XB32, XB31.RBH EP1. Logitech GPro HS. Plantronics RIG 500 Pro HS. LG FH6,RK8,PK5,PH4. UE Boom3.
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post #11 of 36 Old 05-18-2018, 08:59 PM
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So you guys made me visit the Monoprice web site and look up the review. Bad boys!

The 10" driver is a work of art - so pretty :-). I don't get excited for small subwoofers, but this one has got my attention; and am sure Hsu, SVS, PSA, etc. The data is shocking for 10 incher:


https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...lith-10201d-12
Monoprice claims 18mm of Xmax for both drivers (Xmax is essentially how far the cone can move in one direction from its rest position in a controlled manner). 18mm is a lot of linear excursion for a 12” or especially a 10” woofer. Monoprice also claims that they both have nearly 80mm or peak-to-peak Xmech, or, to put that in other words, about three inches of excursion that these drivers have in both directions. That is a tremendous amount of throw, and the drivers will have a lot of room to safely play in before they could reach their mechanical limits.

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post #12 of 36 Old 05-18-2018, 09:41 PM
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Are the Emotiva subs available via in Mexico. I'm guessing its just a matter of time before the Monoliths are available to you. I will ask about it.
No, Emotiva subs are not available, at least not via Amazon Mexico. Some budget Monoprice subs are, but not the "good" models. It's kinda a small miracle that the PB-1000 is available. Obviously, it's more expensive than in the US, but not as much (around the equivalent of US $600), and it's currently in back-order. Out of curiosity, I tried to place an order in the Monoprice site for the 10", and it'd cost me around 700 dollars, NOT, including import taxes, which would rise the cost even more. It'd be great if the Monoliths were available at some point, but it's a coin flip.

I'm in the process of buying my very first sub (and building my first HT), and the PB-1000 is still a very good choice, so, in a way, I'm at peace for not having access to the Monolith. But those numbers are indeed impressive.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post
I live in the "states" and don't have access to most deals.


Shipping on the monolith subs:
15" $572
12" $434

10" $278


Not such a good deal when shipping is 50% or more of the price.
I feel your pain. Those shipping costs are very close to those for Mexico, including import taxes. The shipping costs kills almost every possible good deal. I'm surprised you guys in Hawaii get such high shipping costs. I assume those costs include some kind of import taxes, because the prices are really high.

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post #14 of 36 Old 05-18-2018, 09:51 PM
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I feel your pain. Those shipping costs are very close to those for Mexico, including import taxes. The shipping costs kills almost every possible good deal. I'm surprised you guys in Hawaii get such high shipping costs. I assume those costs include some kind of import taxes, because the prices are really high.
Just shipping. Crutchfield does ship free and they carry SVS subs so not too bad.
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post #15 of 36 Old 05-18-2018, 09:53 PM
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Have you been surfing any lava flows lately? Kinda scary from what I've seen on the news.
No surfing. 😎

The outbreak is confined to a relatively small area and depending on the wind most of the island is unaffected.
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post #16 of 36 Old 05-19-2018, 06:55 AM
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The Mono10 looks about the same performance as a PB1000.
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post #17 of 36 Old 05-19-2018, 08:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
The Mono10 looks about the same performance as a PB1000.
These posted Audioholics numbers track pretty closely to the SVS PB12-NSD data-bass numbers.
_____PB12-NSD--/--Monolith 10
16Hz___93.3 ______91.3
20Hz___103.2_____ 101.6
25Hz___105_______105.3
31.5Hz__105.9_____106.9
40Hz___106.5_____ 107.6
50Hz___107.3_____107.7
63Hz___108_______107.4
80Hz___108.7______107
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Subs>RBH I-12e/I-12. HSU VTF-15H mk2. Monolith THX 12(x2)/THX 10(x2). XTZ 1X12. SVS PB-1000(x2). Speakers>JBL Studio 530/520c, 270/230/235c/225c, Arena 130/125c. Jamo S807/S803. Pioneer FS52/BS22A/C22. Sony CS3/CS8/CS5. QA 3020i/3090Ci, 2020i/2000c. Monolith AM Cinema 5 bs. Polk RTiA1/CsiA4. Infinity R152. Other Audio>Sony MDR-Z7m2, WH-XB700, XB32, XB31.RBH EP1. Logitech GPro HS. Plantronics RIG 500 Pro HS. LG FH6,RK8,PK5,PH4. UE Boom3.
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post #18 of 36 Old 05-19-2018, 09:36 AM
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yep and the PB1000 is down 2-2.5db to a PB12 under 25hz and has similar output up top.
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post #19 of 36 Old 05-19-2018, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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PB-1000, according to Ed Mullen, averages about 3dB less than the PB12-NSD 16Hz-32Hz and above that they are closer in output.

Subs>RBH I-12e/I-12. HSU VTF-15H mk2. Monolith THX 12(x2)/THX 10(x2). XTZ 1X12. SVS PB-1000(x2). Speakers>JBL Studio 530/520c, 270/230/235c/225c, Arena 130/125c. Jamo S807/S803. Pioneer FS52/BS22A/C22. Sony CS3/CS8/CS5. QA 3020i/3090Ci, 2020i/2000c. Monolith AM Cinema 5 bs. Polk RTiA1/CsiA4. Infinity R152. Other Audio>Sony MDR-Z7m2, WH-XB700, XB32, XB31.RBH EP1. Logitech GPro HS. Plantronics RIG 500 Pro HS. LG FH6,RK8,PK5,PH4. UE Boom3.

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Using my impeccable subwoofer judgement based on weight and equally important, amp rating: PB 1000 weighs 46 lbs and has 300 watts amp. Monolith has 500 watts amp and weighs 72 lbs. Much heavier weight of Monolith, wherever it comes from, driver or amp, etc. is a good thing. A properly measured PB 1000 (Is there one? The Brent Butterworth measurements appear out of whack high?) would show smart money to be on Monolith, IMHO.

Also don’t believe it’s a good idea to extrapolate infrasonic bass measurements.

Little details that, to me, show a higher quality subwoof: Monolith has high quality RCA connector, and XLR input. PB 1000 does not.

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post #21 of 36 Old 05-19-2018, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Much heavier weight of Monolith, wherever it comes from
I am guessing a big chunk is the big HDF box. HDF is heavy.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Using my impeccable subwoofer judgement based on weight and equally important, amp rating: PB 1000 weighs 46 lbs and has 300 watts amp. Much heavier weight of Monolith, wherever it comes from, driver or amp, etc. is a good thing. A properly measured PB 1000 (Is there one? The Brent Butterworth measurements appear out of whack high?) would show smart money to be on Monolith, IMHO.

Also don’t believe it’s a good idea to extrapolate infrasonic bass measurements.
I don't think I've ever read a review with measurements and distortion levels for the PB-1000. That Brent Butterworth review has long been considered flawed. Even when you scale back his numbers 9dB to reflect 2M RMS, he has the PB-1000 output at 63Hz just shy of 6dB more than the data-bass results for the PB12-NSD. That's double the perceived volume level.

AVS regular Jim Wilson reviewed the PB-1000 a few years back and even just recently stated the PB-1000 has no usable output at 20Hz and the sub ran out of steam at 22-23Hz. And this was measured at 1M in-room and stated it would likely be even worse than that at 2M.

Hard to say with any real certainty, but I think it's safe to say the PB-1000 and Monolith 10 will be similar in output higher in range, but the Monolith will have an output advantage lower in range. The superior driver and more amp power gives it the extra grunt for lower range output and with low distortion.
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post #23 of 36 Old 05-19-2018, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
I am guessing a big chunk is the big HDF box. HDF is heavy.
The HDF will make up the "bulk" of the weight difference between the Monolith 10 and the PB-1000. Both cabinets are similar in size, with the Monolith being a tad deeper. I'm sure the Monolith 10 driver is quite a bit heavier than the more modest PB-1000 driver.

PB-1000 driver
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Subs>RBH I-12e/I-12. HSU VTF-15H mk2. Monolith THX 12(x2)/THX 10(x2). XTZ 1X12. SVS PB-1000(x2). Speakers>JBL Studio 530/520c, 270/230/235c/225c, Arena 130/125c. Jamo S807/S803. Pioneer FS52/BS22A/C22. Sony CS3/CS8/CS5. QA 3020i/3090Ci, 2020i/2000c. Monolith AM Cinema 5 bs. Polk RTiA1/CsiA4. Infinity R152. Other Audio>Sony MDR-Z7m2, WH-XB700, XB32, XB31.RBH EP1. Logitech GPro HS. Plantronics RIG 500 Pro HS. LG FH6,RK8,PK5,PH4. UE Boom3.
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post #24 of 36 Old 05-19-2018, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
Even when you scale back his numbers 9dB to reflect 2M RMS, he has the PB-1000 output at 63Hz just shy of 6dB more than the data-bass results for the PB12-NSD. That's double the perceived volume level.

AVS regular Jim Wilson reviewed the PB-1000 a few years back and even just recently stated the PB-1000 has no usable output at 20Hz and the sub ran out of steam at 22-23Hz. And this was measured at 1M in-room..
You're referencing a subwoofer (pb12nsd) that scored the worst/2nd to worst at 63hz out of EVERY subwoofer(100+?) ever measured at data-bass? So yeah, there's going to be plenty of subs that compare favorably in that context if we're just going for sensational headline effect.

The little $399 hsu vtf-1 has 50% more output for example. The vtf-2?...more than double(6dBish). Even known powerhouses like the polk 505($150?) are similar to the pb12nsd at 63hz.

Look at this data-set on subs and half of them have similar/more output than the PB12nsd at 63h https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/be...get-subwoofer/

And there's some REAL serious subs in that shootout---onkyo, yamaha, $100 monoprice(that bested the pb12nsd). Do a quick eyeball check on the provided graph and it looks like half of these powerhouses matched/beat the PB12nsd at 63hz

So using the PB12nsd as ANY sort of reference product in the mid/upper bass should really only be reserved for shock value in how poorly the pb12nsd scored, nothing else.


And per the jim wilson citation--- as often the case on AVS lately, we're(not you jim) confusing how an objective data-set will correlate into "usable output in a listening session". If you're not looking at the frequency response and how the frequency changes with volume(compression graph) we really have NO IDEA how the sub's going to sound with program material at any given frequency. Even if the Pb1000 scored 100dB at every frequency from 16hz on up in the cte/cta testing it may very well sound like theres "no usable output at 16 or 20hz). That's no indication this particular cea/cta session was flawed. But it is easy to make that mistake, especially if we're gunning for a given conclusion instead of letting the data-sets steer us toward the conclusion.

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post #25 of 36 Old 05-19-2018, 11:47 AM
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EDIT: I give up trying to resize the pictures.

I was just doing a visual comparison between the two drivers - the 10" Monolith and the PB-1000. It's a very noticeable difference in size, and presumably, in weight.

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post #26 of 36 Old 05-19-2018, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
You're referencing a subwoofer (pb12nsd) that scored the worst/2nd to worst at 63hz out of EVERY subwoofer(100+?) ever measured at data-bass? So yeah, there's going to be plenty of subs that compare favorably in that context if we're just going for sensational headline effect.

The little $399 hsu vtf-1 has 50% more output for example. The vtf-2?...more than double(6dBish). Even known powerhouses like the polk 505($150?) are similar to the pb12nsd at 63hz.

Look at this data-set on subs and half of them have similar/more output than the PB12nsd at 63h https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/be...get-subwoofer/

And there's some REAL serious subs in that shootout---onkyo, yamaha, $100 monoprice(that bested the pb12nsd). Do a quick eyeball check on the provided graph and it looks like half of these powerhouses matched/beat the PB12nsd at 63hz

So using the PB12nsd as ANY sort of reference product in the mid/upper bass should really only be reserved for shock value in how poorly the pb12nsd scored, nothing else.


And per the jim wilson citation--- as often the case on AVS lately, we're(not you jim) confusing how an objective data-set will correlate into "usable output in a listening session". If you're not looking at the frequency response and how the frequency changes with volume(compression graph) we really have NO IDEA how the sub's going to sound with program material at any given frequency. Even if the Pb1000 scored 100dB at every frequency from 16hz on up in the cte/cta testing it may very well sound like theres "no usable output at 16 or 20hz). That's no indication this particular cea/cta session was flawed. But it is easy to make that mistake, especially if we're gunning for a given conclusion instead of letting the data-sets steer us toward the conclusion.

Tom V.
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The PB12-NSD is not a mid-bass moster and has a very linear frequency response. I'm surprised you would cherry pick data-bass specific numbers @63Hz to attempt to run down the PB12. Also considering the vast majority of subs on data-bass have drivers larger than 12" and many are DIY. I simply posted some max numbers showing the similar output capabilities of the Monolith 10 and PB12. As you well know, SPL higher in range is much easier to produce than lower in range. I had a couple of PB12's and they were darn good subs.

If cherry picking data from data-bass is what you like, the PB12-NSD has the most output @20hz than all of the 12" subs listed other than one DIY build. That includes the RBH SX-12 (which retailed for $1199) and the Outlaw LFM-1-EX, which is actually stronger output wise than the current Ultra-X12. I can also play that game.

Subs>RBH I-12e/I-12. HSU VTF-15H mk2. Monolith THX 12(x2)/THX 10(x2). XTZ 1X12. SVS PB-1000(x2). Speakers>JBL Studio 530/520c, 270/230/235c/225c, Arena 130/125c. Jamo S807/S803. Pioneer FS52/BS22A/C22. Sony CS3/CS8/CS5. QA 3020i/3090Ci, 2020i/2000c. Monolith AM Cinema 5 bs. Polk RTiA1/CsiA4. Infinity R152. Other Audio>Sony MDR-Z7m2, WH-XB700, XB32, XB31.RBH EP1. Logitech GPro HS. Plantronics RIG 500 Pro HS. LG FH6,RK8,PK5,PH4. UE Boom3.
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post #27 of 36 Old 05-19-2018, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
The PB12-NSD is not a mid-bass moster and has a very linear frequency response. I'm surprised you would cherry pick data-bass specific numbers @63Hz to attempt to run down the PB12.


I'm using the subwoofer AND frequency YOU cited as a "reference" to cast doubt on the validity of Brent's data session. How in the world you can twist that into another pot-shot(oh here's tom running down another sub again) is really disappointing but not altogether surprising. This is avs now. The "science" isn't trying to fairly compare data sets or properly scaling them to fairly compare multiple products. The "science" is looking for cheap debating advantages and purposely twisting words to justify personal jabs at anyone who dares to share a different POV.

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post #28 of 36 Old 05-19-2018, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
I'm using the subwoofer AND frequency YOU cited as a "reference" to cast doubt on the validity of Brent's data session. How in the world you can twist that into another pot-shot(oh here's tom running down another sub again) is really disappointing but not altogether surprising. This is avs now. The "science" isn't trying to fairly compare data sets or properly scaling them to fairly compare multiple products. The "science" is looking for cheap debating advantages and purposely twisting words to justify personal jabs at anyone who dares to share a different POV.

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Nothing wrong with another pov. Obviously Brent's measurements on the pb1000, particularly higher in range, are pretty drasically higher than what Ed posted. That review has been long considered flawed. This thread wasn't even supposed to be about the pb1000 or pb12. I posted the measurements from audioholics for both subs that are the subject of this thread and other details. The discussion seems to have went off topic. I'm partially to blame and am sorry for that.
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post #29 of 36 Old 05-19-2018, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
And per the jim wilson citation--- as often the case on AVS lately, we're(not you jim) confusing how an objective data-set will correlate into "usable output in a listening session". If you're not looking at the frequency response and how the frequency changes with volume(compression graph) we really have NO IDEA how the sub's going to sound with program material at any given frequency.
Great discussion and thanks for sharing your knowledge. Would you please give an example of a subwoofer with outstanding CEA-2010 yet lousy compression graph? I am not aware of one, at least one from one of the reputable companies that are seen here on AVS.

The 2 measurements (CEA and compression graph) seem to always correlate in my limited experience. In other words, agreed that CEA 2010 is not everything, but it is at the very least a great beginning for the discerning buyers. All things considered, it is significantly more informative than the amp rating and size of the driver, and every company is listing those.

As far as frequency response, the only one I could think of is Rythmik FV15HP which Data-Bass attributed to the servo design https://data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=51&mset=49. (Or is it aluminum cone break-up??) But in a way, this cut-off is "as intended/as part of the design"? Is this what you're talking about?

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post #30 of 36 Old 05-19-2018, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
Nothing wrong with another pov. Obviously Brent's measurements on the pb1000, particularly higher in range, are pretty drasically higher than what Ed posted. That review has been long considered flawed. This thread wasn't even supposed to be about the pb1000 or pb12. I posted the measurements from audioholics for both subs that are the subject of this thread and other details. The discussion seems to have went off topic. I'm partially to blame and am sorry for that.
I brought it up because they are the same price point. You are the king of 500.00 subs, why don't your order one up and compare them for us.
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