Moving on from a Paradigm Sub 2 & dual Studio Sub 12s - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 65Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 11:23 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
BRAC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Edmonton, AB
Posts: 1,877
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 584 Post(s)
Liked: 490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynokween View Post
This scenario is appealing for a few reasons. To start, I wouldn't have to sell and ultimately lug that Sub 2 back up stairs! Secondly the Sub 2 is already the big-boy in my system and it will sound good with the CAP S2 in the rear or possibly dual CAP 1400s. I'm not to sure how well a big sealed and dual vented would blend together though? 2 ported subs in the rear would certainly offer me more tactile response though!

I've still got to hand it to Paradigm with the Sub 2. For its physical size, it really does bring a solid performance. The only other subs that I think look as good or better than the Sub 2 are the Funk Audio offerings. Much like the Sub 2, the Funk units are also extremely expensive and to be honest I don't really want to venture down that path again. The JTR, PSA and Seaton Big Boys are all more appealing to me price wise.

There is something oddly addicting about the though of looking at 1 (or 2) CAP 4000s in my room! haha
No...I like the single 4000, with the dual 1400's in the back. Similar to what you have now with the Paradigm subs. I strongly urge you not to mix and match different brands. Also, go with all ported or stay with all sealed, but don't mix them.
Dynokween likes this.

Samsung 82” Q90R * Denon X4500H * 5.2.4 Atmos * Xbox One X * PS4 Pro
BRAC is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 11:39 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Snowmanick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,274
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 455 Post(s)
Liked: 630
Fun budget.

My three and a half suggestions:

Deep Sea Sounds Marianna 24 x 2 (or 1 of the 24’s and 2 of the 18’s).

Seaton Submersive HP+ master/slave x 2 (4 total)

JTR Cap S2 x 4

You have a smaller room and each of these combos will give you insane bass and allow you to explore ULF.
Dynokween likes this.
Snowmanick is offline  
post #33 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Dynokween's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAC View Post
No...I like the single 4000, with the dual 1400's in the back. Similar to what you have now with the Paradigm subs. I strongly urge you not to mix and match different brands. Also, go with all ported or stay with all sealed, but don't mix them.
Ok, thanks for clearing that up for me. This would be an awesome combo.

HT/TV/Gaming & 2 Channel Gym System
Marantz AV7701 | 2 x Sherbourn PA 5-200 | Paradigm Studio 100 v5 x 4 | Paradigm Studio CC690 v5 | 2 x Paradigm Sub 12 | Paradigm Sub 2
Sherbourn PA 2-160 (gym) | Paradigm Monitor 90P V2 (gym)
Dynokween is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #34 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 11:48 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
indebtbassfreak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Squamish BC
Posts: 2,445
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1345 Post(s)
Liked: 2531
Mike is one of the most respected people on this forum. He really takes the time to read and understand what he feels someone is looking for and is so incredibly well spoken in how he responds. I would take any advice he suggests seriously.

Now that been said Once you hear a quality sub that can hit clean high SPL down low, it can become very addictive. If you can get the vision of the 4000 out of your mind set, and still want JTR, a pair of 2400's will be more than enough for 99% of the bassheads in that size room. As mentioned even two 1400's will be a huge upgrade, get you the tactical feel you want and save you $6K.
mthomas47 likes this.

-Marantz SR-8012
-Yamaha BD-A1060
-Funk 21.0LX Master/Slave combo 4800 watts RMS/9600watts (peak)-
-Chane A-2.4 L/C/R
-Chane A-1.4 side/rear surrounds.
indebtbassfreak is offline  
post #35 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Dynokween's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post
Fun budget.

My three and a half suggestions:

Deep Sea Sounds Marianna 24 x 2 (or 1 of the 24’s and 2 of the 18’s).

Seaton Submersive HP+ master/slave x 2 (4 total)

JTR Cap S2 x 4

You have a smaller room and each of these combos will give you insane bass and allow you to explore ULF.
I see someone else likes sealed options. Those 24" offerings look insane. Everything you read about these say you feel so much more with a 24" vs an 18 or 15". Given my system is on concrete and I'm not on a riser, I may not experience the same in my room but it sure would be fun to try.

HT/TV/Gaming & 2 Channel Gym System
Marantz AV7701 | 2 x Sherbourn PA 5-200 | Paradigm Studio 100 v5 x 4 | Paradigm Studio CC690 v5 | 2 x Paradigm Sub 12 | Paradigm Sub 2
Sherbourn PA 2-160 (gym) | Paradigm Monitor 90P V2 (gym)
Dynokween is offline  
post #36 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 12:01 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
BRAC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Edmonton, AB
Posts: 1,877
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 584 Post(s)
Liked: 490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynokween View Post
Ok, thanks for clearing that up for me. This would be an awesome combo.
Completely overkill btw! Like @mthomas47 was saying, a measly combination of 1400's would likely blow you right out of the room. I'm thinking maybe dual or a set of three 1400's would do the trick and save you a ton of money! Then put the savings towards speaker upgrades.


Sadly, the only game in town for quality ported subs in Canada is SVS. That's the way I went and couldn't be happier. I'm rocking dual PB13 Ultra's currently and the tactile feel is substantially improved over my previous sealed sub setup's. Clearance pricing was an added bonus as well and was the main reason I chose the older 13 Ultra series over the newer 4000 series.
mthomas47 likes this.

Samsung 82” Q90R * Denon X4500H * 5.2.4 Atmos * Xbox One X * PS4 Pro
BRAC is offline  
post #37 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Dynokween's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAC View Post
Completely overkill btw! Like @mthomas47 was saying, a measly combination of 1400's would likely blow you right out of the room. I'm thinking maybe dual or a set of three 1400's would do the trick and save you a ton of money! Then put the savings towards speaker upgrades.


Sadly, the only game in town for quality ported subs in Canada is SVS. That's the way I went and couldn't be happier. I'm rocking dual PB13 Ultra's currently and the tactile feel is substantially improved over my previous sealed sub setup's. Clearance pricing was an added bonus as well and was the main reason I chose the older 13 Ultra series over the newer 4000 series.
1400s seem like toys to me...completely underkill!! KIDDING!

Overkill would be dual 4000ULF-LP directly behind the row of seating you see in my pictures. And yes, I've actually considered this. http://jtrspeakers.com/captivator-4000ulf-lp.html

SVS makes some excellent units. PB13s look amazing and I am sure sound wonderful.
mthomas47 likes this.

HT/TV/Gaming & 2 Channel Gym System
Marantz AV7701 | 2 x Sherbourn PA 5-200 | Paradigm Studio 100 v5 x 4 | Paradigm Studio CC690 v5 | 2 x Paradigm Sub 12 | Paradigm Sub 2
Sherbourn PA 2-160 (gym) | Paradigm Monitor 90P V2 (gym)
Dynokween is offline  
post #38 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 12:43 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
BRAC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Edmonton, AB
Posts: 1,877
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 584 Post(s)
Liked: 490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynokween View Post
1400s seem like toys to me...completely underkill!! KIDDING!

Overkill would be dual 4000ULF-LP directly behind the row of seating you see in my pictures. And yes, I've actually considered this. http://jtrspeakers.com/captivator-4000ulf-lp.html

SVS makes some excellent units. PB13s look amazing and I am sure sound wonderful.

More power to you, if you want to try something crazy!


Curious to see what you end up with and how much it improves on the Paradigm's.

Samsung 82” Q90R * Denon X4500H * 5.2.4 Atmos * Xbox One X * PS4 Pro
BRAC is offline  
post #39 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 12:43 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
indebtbassfreak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Squamish BC
Posts: 2,445
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1345 Post(s)
Liked: 2531
To try and put into perspective for you, Mike has three PB16's and one PB13 near field in a 5000^3 maybe larger room on concrete and he said he's had to turn down the volume or would have been run out of the room. I mean two PB16's would be plenty and you have a Canadian dealer. Two Cap 1400's is another level up. The question is,,,,, would you ever use the extra headroom?

-Marantz SR-8012
-Yamaha BD-A1060
-Funk 21.0LX Master/Slave combo 4800 watts RMS/9600watts (peak)-
-Chane A-2.4 L/C/R
-Chane A-1.4 side/rear surrounds.
indebtbassfreak is offline  
post #40 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Dynokween's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAC View Post
More power to you, if you want to try something crazy!


Curious to see what you end up with and how much it improves on the Paradigm's.
I'm only 535km away from you. Once something happens you're more than welcome to come on over!

It sounds like everything we've talked about in this thread is going to be an improvement over the Paradigm setup I have now. It sure would be fun to try them all.

HT/TV/Gaming & 2 Channel Gym System
Marantz AV7701 | 2 x Sherbourn PA 5-200 | Paradigm Studio 100 v5 x 4 | Paradigm Studio CC690 v5 | 2 x Paradigm Sub 12 | Paradigm Sub 2
Sherbourn PA 2-160 (gym) | Paradigm Monitor 90P V2 (gym)
Dynokween is offline  
post #41 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Dynokween's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
To try and put into perspective for you, Mike has three PB16's and one PB13 near field in a 5000^3 maybe larger room on concrete and he said he's had to turn down the volume or would have been run out of the room. I mean two PB16's would be plenty and you have a Canadian dealer. Two Cap 1400's is another level up. The question is,,,,, would you ever use the extra headroom?
Good info. Mike must be getting old!! haha. So hes having to turn down 4 subs which tells me having 2 of the 4000ULF-LPs near field should be just fine since its 50% of the subwoofage

Using and having the ability to use, are two different things And for movies I would most likely use the extra headroom. For music and such I really doubt I would need any of the subs we are talking about. Heck, the only time I've ever let my Sub 2 eat was during movies while by myself as others in my household tend to not like reference level volumes.

PB16's are/were on the radar. My issues with these is the shape of them. I don't think placement would be easy with the length of them, for duals anyway.

HT/TV/Gaming & 2 Channel Gym System
Marantz AV7701 | 2 x Sherbourn PA 5-200 | Paradigm Studio 100 v5 x 4 | Paradigm Studio CC690 v5 | 2 x Paradigm Sub 12 | Paradigm Sub 2
Sherbourn PA 2-160 (gym) | Paradigm Monitor 90P V2 (gym)
Dynokween is offline  
post #42 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 01:03 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
BRAC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Edmonton, AB
Posts: 1,877
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 584 Post(s)
Liked: 490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynokween View Post
I'm only 535km away from you. Once something happens you're more than welcome to come on over!

It sounds like everything we've talked about in this thread is going to be an improvement over the Paradigm setup I have now. It sure would be fun to try them all.
Nice! You are in Saskatoon? I may just take you up on that offer. I have family in Regina, so there's a good chance I'll be out your way.

Samsung 82” Q90R * Denon X4500H * 5.2.4 Atmos * Xbox One X * PS4 Pro
BRAC is offline  
post #43 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Dynokween's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAC View Post
Nice! You are in Saskatoon? I may just take you up on that offer. I have family in Regina, so there's a good chance I'll be out your way.
Just outside of Saskatoon in Warman. You can stop by anytime if you'd like, CAP4000s or not.

HT/TV/Gaming & 2 Channel Gym System
Marantz AV7701 | 2 x Sherbourn PA 5-200 | Paradigm Studio 100 v5 x 4 | Paradigm Studio CC690 v5 | 2 x Paradigm Sub 12 | Paradigm Sub 2
Sherbourn PA 2-160 (gym) | Paradigm Monitor 90P V2 (gym)
Dynokween is offline  
post #44 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 01:27 PM
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,126
Mentioned: 324 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5371 Post(s)
Liked: 10023
Quote:
Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
Mike is one of the most respected people on this forum. He really takes the time to read and understand what he feels someone is looking for and is so incredibly well spoken in how he responds. I would take any advice he suggests seriously.

Now that been said Once you hear a quality sub that can hit clean high SPL down low, it can become very addictive. If you can get the vision of the 4000 out of your mind set, and still want JTR, a pair of 2400's will be more than enough for 99% of the bassheads in that size room. As mentioned even two 1400's will be a huge upgrade, get you the tactical feel you want and save you $6K.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynokween View Post
Good info. Mike must be getting old!! haha. So hes having to turn down 4 subs which tells me having 2 of the 4000ULF-LPs near field should be just fine since its 50% of the subwoofage

Using and having the ability to use, are two different things And for movies I would most likely use the extra headroom. For music and such I really doubt I would need any of the subs we are talking about. Heck, the only time I've ever let my Sub 2 eat was during movies while by myself as others in my household tend to not like reference level volumes.

PB16's are/were on the radar. My issues with these is the shape of them. I don't think placement would be easy with the length of them, for duals anyway.



Thank you very much for the compliment, Joe!

It's actually 6000^3 on concrete, and the PB13 is now a PB4000, just because. But yes, age notwithstanding, having four subs this powerful is actually more than I need. But, all four of my subs would still not equal dual Cap 4000's. That's what I meant when I said that you really don't know how powerful ported subs can be. And, the Cap 4000 is the most powerful sub made. Believe me, it wasn't really intended for 1755^3 rooms.

I think that dual PB13's (or the newer PB4000's) would be a great choice for your room. The PB16's not so much. This is part of what I am having trouble conveying with words. The PB16's are about 4db more powerful than the PB13's (3db more than the PB4000's) below 35Hz. But, you won't need more SPL below 35Hz than what the PB13's will give you. Two PB13's will produce several times the low-frequency SPL that you are getting now from your three sealed subs, and they will also produce much more tactile response. And, the room gain that you get below 30Hz will magnify and intensify the low-frequencies even more. So, PB16's would be larger and more expensive than the PB13/PB4000's, but they wouldn't give you more of anything at all that you can actually use.

The same thing will be true for Cap 2400's, and even more so for Cap 4000's. The Cap 2400 is designed to be more powerful than the Cap 1400 below about 35Hz. They are about equal above 35Hz. In a very large room, like my 6000^3 room, where I don't get much room gain, and where I sit much further away from my subs, that extra low-frequency SPL would be a good thing. In your room, it would not be a good thing. It would be the opposite of good. And the Cap 4000's would just be overwhelming in a space that size for someone who doesn't really want insane SPL.

Finding the right subwoofers for the space, and for the listener, is sometimes a difficult process. In my opinion, dual PB13's or PB4000's (essentially the same sub with some embellishments), or dual Cap 1400's, would be a great starting point. My personal prediction is that any of those pairs would also be your stopping point from a performance standpoint. You could always choose to start with more, or to add more over time, but again I don't think you realize just how powerful a pair of good ported subs will be in your room.

FWIW, I would never advise someone to buy less subwoofage than he may need. The entire Guide, linked in my signature, is predicated on the notion of having more subwoofage than we need in order to have ample undistorted headroom. And, my own system is consistent with that principle. But, I paid attention when you said that you weren't a huge SPL guy. The strong ported subs I have suggested above are going to give you all the headroom you ever need--even to hit Reference levels (0.0 MV) in your 1755^3 room.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
mthomas47 is offline  
post #45 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 01:29 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 11,411
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6144 Post(s)
Liked: 5366
Quote:
I want something that looks and sounds badass
Quote:
as long as the unit fits underneath my TV with the center channel on top we are good
End game = dual S7201 from PSA ($7500). They check both of your boxes.

By all reports, just a single one of these is a visceral experience like no other. Duals would threaten the integrity of your house (and maybe your internal organs!).

https://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/S7201

Alan P is offline  
post #46 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 01:34 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
indebtbassfreak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Squamish BC
Posts: 2,445
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1345 Post(s)
Liked: 2531
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
End game = dual S7201 from PSA ($7500). They check both of your boxes.

By all reports, just a single one of these is a visceral experience like no other. Duals would threaten the integrity of your house (and maybe your internal organs!).

https://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/S7201

Hear we go!!!!!!!

-Marantz SR-8012
-Yamaha BD-A1060
-Funk 21.0LX Master/Slave combo 4800 watts RMS/9600watts (peak)-
-Chane A-2.4 L/C/R
-Chane A-1.4 side/rear surrounds.
indebtbassfreak is offline  
post #47 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Dynokween's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
End game = dual S7201 from PSA ($7500). They check both of your boxes.

By all reports, just a single one of these is a visceral experience like no other. Duals would threaten the integrity of your house (and maybe your internal organs!).

https://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/S7201

Mic drop? Or rather, should I say Mike will drop?

I can even agree that these would be overkill for my room.
Alan P and mthomas47 like this.

HT/TV/Gaming & 2 Channel Gym System
Marantz AV7701 | 2 x Sherbourn PA 5-200 | Paradigm Studio 100 v5 x 4 | Paradigm Studio CC690 v5 | 2 x Paradigm Sub 12 | Paradigm Sub 2
Sherbourn PA 2-160 (gym) | Paradigm Monitor 90P V2 (gym)
Dynokween is offline  
post #48 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Dynokween's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Thank you very much for the compliment, Joe!

It's actually 6000^3 on concrete, and the PB13 is now a PB4000, just because. But yes, age notwithstanding, having four subs this powerful is actually more than I need. But, all four of my subs would still not equal dual Cap 4000's. That's what I meant when I said that you really don't know how powerful ported subs can be. And, the Cap 4000 is the most powerful sub made. Believe me, it wasn't really intended for 1755^3 rooms.

I think that dual PB13's (or the newer PB4000's) would be a great choice for your room. The PB16's not so much. This is part of what I am having trouble conveying with words. The PB16's are about 4db more powerful than the PB13's (3db more than the PB4000's) below 35Hz. But, you won't need more SPL below 35Hz than what the PB13's will give you. Two PB13's will produce several times the low-frequency SPL that you are getting now from your three sealed subs, and they will also produce much more tactile response. And, the room gain that you get below 30Hz will magnify and intensify the low-frequencies even more. So, PB16's would be larger and more expensive than the PB13/PB4000's, but they wouldn't give you more of anything at all that you can actually use.

The same thing will be true for Cap 2400's, and even more so for Cap 4000's. The Cap 2400 is designed to be more powerful than the Cap 1400 below about 35Hz. They are about equal above 35Hz. In a very large room, like my 6000^3 room, where I don't get much room gain, and where I sit much further away from my subs, that extra low-frequency SPL would be a good thing. In your room, it would not be a good thing. It would be the opposite of good. And the Cap 4000's would just be overwhelming in a space that size for someone who doesn't really want insane SPL.

Finding the right subwoofers for the space, and for the listener, is sometimes a difficult process. In my opinion, dual PB13's or PB4000's (essentially the same sub with some embellishments), or dual Cap 1400's, would be a great starting point. My personal prediction is that any of those pairs would also be your stopping point from a performance standpoint. You could always choose to start with more, or to add more over time, but again I don't think you realize just how powerful a pair of good ported subs will be in your room.

FWIW, I would never advise someone to buy less subwoofage than he may need. The entire Guide, linked in my signature, is predicated on the notion of having more subwoofage than we need in order to have ample undistorted headroom. And, my own system is consistent with that principle. But, I paid attention when you said that you weren't a huge SPL guy. The strong ported subs I have suggested above are going to give you all the headroom you ever need--even to hit Reference levels (0.0 MV) in your 1755^3 room.

Regards,
Mike
Really good info here.

I think the main issue i'm having is I've never owned strong ported subwoofers, ever. I truly would like to experience the CAP 4000 just to see what its like, however you may have talked me off the edge and towards the 2400s at most. I still need to do more research of course. I've also put a call into JTR but no luck reaching anyone yet.

Its not that I don't want big SPL, instead I'm not intentionally chasing big SPL on purpose...if that makes any sense?

So let me ask you this. How about dual 2400s near field in my room (please see attached picture). The 2400s would be about 32" from the 2 MLPs on my 4 row seating.

HT/TV/Gaming & 2 Channel Gym System
Marantz AV7701 | 2 x Sherbourn PA 5-200 | Paradigm Studio 100 v5 x 4 | Paradigm Studio CC690 v5 | 2 x Paradigm Sub 12 | Paradigm Sub 2
Sherbourn PA 2-160 (gym) | Paradigm Monitor 90P V2 (gym)

Last edited by Dynokween; 07-06-2018 at 02:08 PM.
Dynokween is offline  
post #49 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 02:25 PM
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,126
Mentioned: 324 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5371 Post(s)
Liked: 10023
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynokween View Post
Really good info here.

I think the main issue i'm having is I've never owned strong ported subwoofers, ever. I truly would like to experience the CAP 4000 just to see what its like, however you may have talked me off the edge and towards the 2400s at most. I still need to do more research of course. I've also put a call into JTR but no luck reaching anyone yet.

Its not that I don't want big SPL, instead I'm not intentionally chasing big SPL on purpose...if that makes any sense?

So let me ask you this. How about dual 2400s near field in my room (please see attached picture). The 2400s would be about 32" from the 2 MLPs on my 4 row seating.

You can always make a final decision on placement once you have the subs you select in your room. And, if you have your heart set on big subwoofers, I will confess that the Cap 2400 is my personal favorite of the ported JTR subs. But, my initial thought is that I would still put one sub on the front wall somewhere, and then position the other sub behind the listening position. Please believe me when I tell you that one Cap 2400 directly behind the row of chairs will feel like it's launching you into orbit.

But, I suspect that if you didn't balance whatever you put behind you, with an equivalent sub up front, the one behind you would be too easy to localize. As noted in a number of posts, ported subs produce a great deal of tactile energy. And, it's sometimes possible to localize the direction that strong tactile sensations are coming from, even if we can't localize bass sounds--with 80Hz or lower crossovers, for instance. I seem to be somewhat susceptible to the directionality of tactile sensations, and that's one reason why I have four subs in my large room. Some people use the term "bass envelopment", and I think that's a pretty good description for feeling surrounded by bass.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
mthomas47 is offline  
post #50 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 02:35 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 11,411
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6144 Post(s)
Liked: 5366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynokween View Post
Mic drop? Or rather, should I say Mike will drop?

I can even agree that these would be overkill for my room.
But, but, they will look badass and fit under your CC!!



Alan P is offline  
post #51 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Dynokween's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
You can always make a final decision on placement once you have the subs you select in your room. And, if you have your heart set on big subwoofers, I will confess that the Cap 2400 is my personal favorite of the ported JTR subs. But, my initial thought is that I would still put one sub on the front wall somewhere, and then position the other sub behind the listening position. Please believe me when I tell you that one Cap 2400 directly behind the row of chairs will feel like it's launching you into orbit.

But, I suspect that if you didn't balance whatever you put behind you, with an equivalent sub up front, the one behind you would be too easy to localize. As noted in a number of posts, ported subs produce a great deal of tactile energy. And, it's sometimes possible to localize the direction that strong tactile sensations are coming from, even if we can't localize bass sounds--with 80Hz or lower crossovers, for instance. I seem to be somewhat susceptible to the directionality of tactile sensations, and that's one reason why I have four subs in my large room. Some people use the term "bass envelopment", and I think that's a pretty good description for feeling surrounded by bass.

Regards,
Mike
The CAP 2400 really does look like an excellent performer and the price is nice as well.

Some of the reasons I'm thinking about putting the 2400s (or whatever they may be) directly behind the MLP is because that spot in my room is "wasted space" and visually I can hide things there nicely as its not a focal point at all. I bet if there were 2 CAP 4000s sitting there it sure would become a focal point!! I'm also all about symmetrical placement these days. This is the OCD in me coming out, but I really don't like that I've got 1 sub up front and 2 in the rear. Visually, I'd like to see 2 up front and 2 in the rear for example. Horrible thoughts for sub placement and performance I know but I am just letting you know where I am coming from.

One thing to acknowledge in my current setup is that the addition of the dual Sub 12s in the rear did actually add some tactile response which I like. This response is very much felt from the rear of the room. I'm sure these ported subs will be much stronger and I can certainly appreciate your suggestion to even out the room by having something up on the front wall. So I guess that leads us back to a CAP 4000 up front and a 2400 in the rear LOL!!

Thank you again for all of your advice. It really has been helpful.

HT/TV/Gaming & 2 Channel Gym System
Marantz AV7701 | 2 x Sherbourn PA 5-200 | Paradigm Studio 100 v5 x 4 | Paradigm Studio CC690 v5 | 2 x Paradigm Sub 12 | Paradigm Sub 2
Sherbourn PA 2-160 (gym) | Paradigm Monitor 90P V2 (gym)
Dynokween is offline  
post #52 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Dynokween's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
But, but, they will look badass and fit under your CC!!



Correct x 2!

HT/TV/Gaming & 2 Channel Gym System
Marantz AV7701 | 2 x Sherbourn PA 5-200 | Paradigm Studio 100 v5 x 4 | Paradigm Studio CC690 v5 | 2 x Paradigm Sub 12 | Paradigm Sub 2
Sherbourn PA 2-160 (gym) | Paradigm Monitor 90P V2 (gym)
Dynokween is offline  
post #53 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 02:54 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
indebtbassfreak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Squamish BC
Posts: 2,445
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1345 Post(s)
Liked: 2531
At the end of the day, it's your money and your OCD It's obvious to us your interested in purchasing way more subwoofer (at this point) than you will likely ever use. You can always turn it down right, but at the same time dial it up for giggles well past your tolerance.

If you want aesthetics/cemetery, get three cap 1400's, two balanced up front, one in the back on its side if having just one visible bothers you. Three of those will push you out of the room before they are breathing hard.

-Marantz SR-8012
-Yamaha BD-A1060
-Funk 21.0LX Master/Slave combo 4800 watts RMS/9600watts (peak)-
-Chane A-2.4 L/C/R
-Chane A-1.4 side/rear surrounds.
indebtbassfreak is offline  
post #54 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 03:03 PM
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,126
Mentioned: 324 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5371 Post(s)
Liked: 10023
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynokween View Post
The CAP 2400 really does look like an excellent performer and the price is nice as well.

Some of the reasons I'm thinking about putting the 2400s (or whatever they may be) directly behind the MLP is because that spot in my room is "wasted space" and visually I can hide things there nicely as its not a focal point at all. I bet if there were 2 CAP 4000s sitting there it sure would become a focal point!! I'm also all about symmetrical placement these days. This is the OCD in me coming out, but I really don't like that I've got 1 sub up front and 2 in the rear. Visually, I'd like to see 2 up front and 2 in the rear for example. Horrible thoughts for sub placement and performance I know but I am just letting you know where I am coming from.

One thing to acknowledge in my current setup is that the addition of the dual Sub 12s in the rear did actually add some tactile response which I like. This response is very much felt from the rear of the room. I'm sure these ported subs will be much stronger and I can certainly appreciate your suggestion to even out the room by having something up on the front wall. So I guess that leads us back to a CAP 4000 up front and a 2400 in the rear LOL!!

Thank you again for all of your advice. It really has been helpful.

You are very welcome and I'm glad to be able to help a little. I understand perfectly about the aesthetic OCD. I can only suggest that you wait and see to decide what you like. You might be able to put two subs behind you and not have a problem, although at that point why have two? Why not just one centered on the back wall? It isn't as if a single Cap 2400, 32" from your listening position in a 1755^3 room, will be lacking.

The real advantage of dual subwoofers will be in your ability to smooth-out peaks and valleys in the frequency response caused by interactions with the room, and then perhaps also with the resulting bass envelopment. And, both of those advantages are defeated when you put two subs side-by-side. So, I would wait to decide what the actual aesthetic, versus functional trade-offs are, once you actually have the subs to experiment with.

There is something that I had meant to say earlier which I should say now, just in case. Whatever you decide to get, I would recommend getting two of the same thing. In a really large room, you can put a nearfield subwoofer behind you, and a stronger subwoofer on the front wall, and make-up a lot of the difference in their output due to the difference in distance. In a small room, you really can't. To a pair of PB13's, or a pair of ported JTR's, the difference in distance between the front wall and the rear wall will be pretty negligible in terms of SPL.

It will be much easier to level-match, and to EQ dual subs of the same model, than it will be for two subs with dissimilar outputs. I think you were just kidding about a 4000 up front and a 2400 behind you. That is, I think so, but just in case.

Regards,
Mike


By the way, something that I noticed earlier when I was looking at your photos is your component cabinet. That looks very sharp!

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 07-06-2018 at 04:21 PM.
mthomas47 is offline  
post #55 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Dynokween's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
At the end of the day, it's your money and your OCD It's obvious to us your interested in purchasing way more subwoofer (at this point) than you will likely ever use. You can always turn it down right, but at the same time dial it up for giggles well past your tolerance.

If you want aesthetics/cemetery, get three cap 1400's, two balanced up front, one in the back on its side if having just one visible bothers you. Three of those will push you out of the room before they are breathing hard.
LOL. My OCD isn't really that bad. As for symmetry, maybe I just go with 4 1400s !!

Isn't buying more than what we need part of the fun? But I agree and turning them down is better than having to turn something up.

I seem to be stuck on JTR too. There are still lots of really really good options for me to research and consider. This thread is just the starting point for me and I intend to keep digging around and talking to some of these vendors when I get the chance.

Thanks again to everyone for all of your input.

HT/TV/Gaming & 2 Channel Gym System
Marantz AV7701 | 2 x Sherbourn PA 5-200 | Paradigm Studio 100 v5 x 4 | Paradigm Studio CC690 v5 | 2 x Paradigm Sub 12 | Paradigm Sub 2
Sherbourn PA 2-160 (gym) | Paradigm Monitor 90P V2 (gym)
Dynokween is offline  
post #56 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 03:08 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
indebtbassfreak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Squamish BC
Posts: 2,445
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1345 Post(s)
Liked: 2531
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynokween View Post
LOL. My OCD isn't really that bad. As for symmetry, maybe I just go with 4 1400s !!

Isn't buying more than what we need part of the fun? But I agree and turning them down is better than having to turn something up.

I seem to be stuck on JTR too. There are still lots of really really good options for me to research and consider. This thread is just the starting point for me and I intend to keep digging around and talking to some of these vendors when I get the chance.

Thanks again to everyone for all of your input.
One bit of advice,,,,,,,,store in that bench seat behind your MLP some mouth guards and body armor,,,, you will need them.

-Marantz SR-8012
-Yamaha BD-A1060
-Funk 21.0LX Master/Slave combo 4800 watts RMS/9600watts (peak)-
-Chane A-2.4 L/C/R
-Chane A-1.4 side/rear surrounds.
indebtbassfreak is offline  
post #57 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 03:14 PM
Member
 
HDVidGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 156
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynokween View Post
Hi Everyone,

Its been 5 great years with my current setup at home. The room is primarily used for music right now but it serves all duties (TV, Movies, Games & Music). I currently have a single Paradigm Sub 2 in my front right corner (bordered by concrete walls) and is powered via a dedicated 240V line. I then have dual Paradigm Studio Sub 12s directly behind my 4-row seating. All 3 subs are calibrated by PBK and sound wonderful together. Here are some facts about the room:

- 15' x 13 x 9'
- Carpet flooring ontop of concete (basement)
- One entrance at the rear-left of the room which opens to a typical small hallway in our 2-story. In other words, there isn't a great deal of open space behind my room but there is some
- The roof is insulated and has 2 layers of drywall
- All perimeter walls are insulated (2) while the other walls (2) border the concrete foundation
- 0 room treatment. The wife thinks its ugly....so I didn't even LOL
- Marantz AVR7701

I'm looking to up the output of my system. I'm considering PSA, JTR, Seaton, Rythmik and various other ID companies. No company is off the table and no combination is off the table. Ideally I'd like to see a row of 4 15" woofers up front that sit underneath my CC690 center channel and then possibly 2 more 15" in the rear of my room to replace the Studio Sub 12s. This scenario I've thought of would require SEALED 15" for space reasons and Seaton/JTR fits my eye here.

I am also not opposed to keeping the Sub 2 and upgrading the rear of my room. Its a Sub 2 after all and its certainly no slouch....plus PBK is pretty slick.

I am not entirely after raw SPL. I want more tactical output to really slam my world during movies etc. My budget will primarily come from the funds collected from selling my Paradigm units plus some extra. Lets try to play with 7,500 - 10,000 USD. This cost should include everything such as necessary room correction items, cables (for example, the Slave cables from Seaton) and everything else.

No room treatment unfortunately......

I look forward to your suggestions. I want something that looks and sounds badass and will make me happy that I upgraded from my Paradigm stuff. Its also worth mentioning that I don't have a 3rd Sub 12 like the pictures shows. I put that there for a visual representation of the room, and to see what a 3rd might look like...
Let me know when you’re selling the Sub 2!

Bryston SP3
Bryston BDP-2, BOT-1
Bryston 14B SST, 6B SST
B&W 802N's, HTM1
Paradigm Sub 2
Paradigm ADP 470 v3
HDVidGuy is offline  
post #58 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 03:54 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dave-T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Arlington, Va.
Posts: 1,548
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1129 Post(s)
Liked: 529
You have a Paradigm signature sub 2? The one that sells for $10,500 and weights 300+ pounds? If that I the sub you have that thing is a beast. I have heard one before and it is a bad ass sub. Why would you want to get rid of it? if you like paradigm then you would like JL Audio. have you considered Dual JL F112v2.. JL is Expensive but I recommend calling SteveH at Sound Video, he is a great guy and takes care of AVS peeps I bought my F112v2 from him and am thinking about a second one in October. Paradigm, JL and Rel are in the are in a different league. however the stuff being recommend are also good gear as well This brands I listed are not liked here because they are not value brands like the ID subs suggested.
Dave-T is offline  
post #59 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 05:59 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
BRAC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Edmonton, AB
Posts: 1,877
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 584 Post(s)
Liked: 490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave-T View Post
You have a Paradigm signature sub 2? The one that sells for $10,500 and weights 300+ pounds? If that I the sub you have that thing is a beast. I have heard one before and it is a bad ass sub. Why would you want to get rid of it? if you like paradigm then you would like JL Audio. have you considered Dual JL F112v2.. JL is Expensive but I recommend calling SteveH at Sound Video, he is a great guy and takes care of AVS peeps I bought my F112v2 from him and am thinking about a second one in October. Paradigm, JL and Rel are in the are in a different league. however the stuff being recommend are also good gear as well This brands I listed are not liked here because they are not value brands like the ID subs suggested.
I would disagree with that statement wholeheartedly. Performance wise they are not in a different league at all. In fact, it can be argued that it’s just the opposite. Fit and finish wise you may have an argument, although I would put my piano black PB13 Ultra’s up against those brands you mentioned without a second thought.

Samsung 82” Q90R * Denon X4500H * 5.2.4 Atmos * Xbox One X * PS4 Pro
BRAC is offline  
post #60 of 111 Old 07-06-2018, 09:30 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
indebtbassfreak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Squamish BC
Posts: 2,445
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1345 Post(s)
Liked: 2531
Actually it would take $21,000 on two Sub2's to compete with one $2500 2400ULF under 50Hz, above that one Sub2 is pretty much equal to the JTR give or take based on frequency. That is only in output and doesn't take into account the extra tactical feel the ported JTR will have. Here's a comparison from 40Hz down to 10Hz:

2400 / Sub2

10Hz 101.8DB's 94DB's -7.8DB's
12.5Hz 106DB's 98.2DB's -7.8DB's
16Hz 109.2DB's 102.6DB's -6.6DB's
20Hz 112.6DB's 106.4DB's -6.2DB's
25Hz 114.9DB's 109.9DB's -5DB's
31.5Hz 118.8DB's 113.2DB's -5.4DB's
40Hz 120.3DB's 116.9DB's -3.4DB's

Taking an average of those measurements = 6.05DB's advantage for the Cap2400 under 50Hz. So just two Cap2400's will equate to four of your Sub2's with more tactical feel in the LF and ULF range. Not bad for about $5500 shipped. In the ULF range below 15Hz two Sub2's wont keep up to just one 2400.

Sorry for the amateur graph (i'm no Chucky) Measurements were taken from databass.com.

Also keep in mind outdoor measurements from the Sub2 i'm guessing only one row of drivers were facing the mic vs the ported JTR's one driver and port.
mthomas47 likes this.

-Marantz SR-8012
-Yamaha BD-A1060
-Funk 21.0LX Master/Slave combo 4800 watts RMS/9600watts (peak)-
-Chane A-2.4 L/C/R
-Chane A-1.4 side/rear surrounds.
indebtbassfreak is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off