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post #2971 of 7427 Old 12-12-2018, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by d-rail34 View Post
Okay, I just went back and retraced the process, and after I extract the audio, I just check "Mix to Mono" & "Decimate Audio". I'm not changing anything in the Channel/LFE option. I'm leaving that as is, so if there is something else that I should be doing there, by all means, please correct me.
I know how frustrating it can be not understand and wanting to learn
Ive asked so much they almost threw me of the forum

Now I know how to, and what to avoid, I also do remux.......

The most important part is to check each channel after you apply filters, and keep some headroom in all channels, I like to keep at least +0.5db...
And try to link all channels together, its more sinple to add filters, and it gets applied on all channels even also....

Now I know after remux, no clipping, just great sound...

Keep up....
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post #2972 of 7427 Old 12-12-2018, 12:03 PM
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@aron7awol I get the safety reason for negative gain on title but is there a reason to be adding the positive gains? It seems to be to convey that the track is quieter so turn up the volume. That's something I naturally do if I start playing a movie and it's softer then I'd like. I'm asking since when I look at the graph and chart of the titles with it, it feels like I'm not getting as good of an impression of what the filters are doing vs the gain increase. I don't know if I'm missing or not understanding the inclusion. I'm also thinking about it from the standpoint of automating the BEQ files and how to convey the gain to the user.
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post #2973 of 7427 Old 12-12-2018, 12:43 PM
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Aron, do you plan on doing a BEQ for Star Trek Beyond? I've seen a few requests for it in this thread and the BASS thread. Wasn't sure if it was on your list or if you'll be skipping it.

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post #2974 of 7427 Old 12-12-2018, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruppgu View Post
Aron, do you plan on doing a BEQ for Star Trek Beyond? I've seen a few requests for it in this thread and the BASS thread. Wasn't sure if it was on your list or if you'll be skipping it.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post56865468
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post #2975 of 7427 Old 12-12-2018, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Aron, do you plan on doing a BEQ for Star Trek Beyond? I've seen a few requests for it in this thread and the BASS thread. Wasn't sure if it was on your list or if you'll be skipping it.
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post #2976 of 7427 Old 12-12-2018, 12:51 PM
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@aron7awol I get the safety reason for negative gain on title but is there a reason to be adding the positive gains? It seems to be to convey that the track is quieter so turn up the volume. That's something I naturally do if I start playing a movie and it's softer then I'd like. I'm asking since when I look at the graph and chart of the titles with it, it feels like I'm not getting as good of an impression of what the filters are doing vs the gain increase. I don't know if I'm missing or not understanding the inclusion. I'm also thinking about it from the standpoint of automating the BEQ files and how to convey the gain to the user.
The negative and positive gains are both to level the playing field, so to speak, both in designing and comparing BEQs. My target for the ULF is the band between -15dB and -20dB at the level that the mix will actually be played at. The problem with having mixes that are louder/quieter than normal is that I can't properly go after that target without adjusting MV first. I also like the fact that the peak spectrum actually displays something much closer to what the actual level the track will be played at.

The only thing I don't like about it, similar to you, is that it gets lumped in with the other filters and so the graph shows it as a difference between unfiltered and filtered. I actually considered asking @3ll3d00d to add the ability to add a master gain separate from the regular filters, which would be reflected on the unfiltered graphs as well. That would be the ideal solution for me, which would give me the best of all worlds.

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post #2977 of 7427 Old 12-12-2018, 12:58 PM
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The spectrum view has an independent colour range to allow signals at different levels to be easily compared visually.

Master volume control in the app doesn't really make sense to me as the filters are gain adjustments for that channel not a MV control (I realise it is being used to denote this here but tbh I don't really think this is the job of the filtering, it is the job of the playback system)
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post #2978 of 7427 Old 12-12-2018, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by hundrakg View Post
I know how frustrating it can be not understand and wanting to learn
Ive asked so much they almost threw me of the forum

Now I know how to, and what to avoid, I also do remux.......

The most important part is to check each channel after you apply filters, and keep some headroom in all channels, I like to keep at least +0.5db...
And try to link all channels together, its more sinple to add filters, and it gets applied on all channels even also....

Now I know after remux, no clipping, just great sound...

Keep up....
Lol...I hear ya. Actually, the correspondence you had while trying to figure it out is a lot of what I was reading on here. With that info I was able to successfully (almost) EQ my first attempt. Now that I know where I made my mistakes (thank you Aron), I was able to correct things and now it’s so much better.
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post #2979 of 7427 Old 12-12-2018, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruppgu View Post
Aron, do you plan on doing a BEQ for Star Trek Beyond? I've seen a few requests for it in this thread and the BASS thread. Wasn't sure if it was on your list or if you'll be skipping it.
I just realized thanks to this that I missed one of @Sekosche 's batches of files, almost all of the S and T titles. They've been added to the repo now.
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post #2980 of 7427 Old 12-12-2018, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by d-rail34 View Post
Lol...I hear ya. Actually, the correspondence you had while trying to figure it out is a lot of what I was reading on here. With that info I was able to successfully (almost) EQ my first attempt. Now that I know where I made my mistakes (thank you Aron), I was able to correct things and now it’s so much better.
Im glad my attempt of learning and pissed of a bunch here helped someone

There are a minor things I still like to ask, but I wont take it here, nothing that is critical, but would be nice to understand..... Still dont know who and where to ask, tried a few options, but no succes..... I guess we have to learn by trial and error, even though not everything could be understood that way...

I still follow this thread close, abd try to snap up things by the day and e
get more info as time goes...

But Im happy as for now, Im at that point where I get my result as I want it to be. So maybee its best to keep it there, and not trying to understand everything

I have another problem, or call it a search for a program that can do this in one step: Input: Bluray folder(with .mpls file) with Dts hd ma/ True HD 5.1 sound and chapters, output: MKV files splitted where the chapters are, with same video but PCM 5.1 sound instead...

Dont think there is a program that can do that in one step, I know the last part here is OT, sorry, but the need for such a program is in my list now of things to find....

So I will keep on searching
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post #2981 of 7427 Old 12-12-2018, 02:07 PM
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I may have said this before but if you have an issue with the app then raise it on GitHub. Issues are not just for bugs, it can be a bug, a question or a feature suggestion.
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post #2982 of 7427 Old 12-12-2018, 02:15 PM
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I may have said this before but if you have an issue with the app then raise it on GitHub. Issues are not just for bugs, it can be a bug, a question or a feature suggestion.
Thanks, I will now... didnt know I could ask questions there also, will do that if something is to unclear..
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post #2983 of 7427 Old 12-12-2018, 02:44 PM
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Master volume control in the app doesn't really make sense to me as the filters are gain adjustments for that channel not a MV control (I realise it is being used to denote this here but tbh I don't really think this is the job of the filtering, it is the job of the playback system)
Part of the reason I didn't ask for that feature is I didn't think you'd like it

I do get what you're saying, that the gain filter is just like any other filter, in that it is applied to a signal/channel. On the other hand, I don't expect many/any people to be adjusting gain on channels within the same mix independently of each other. And for those of us who are doing bass-managed BEQ, the gain filter is applying to the entire mono mix anyway. So really, it is perfect for my use as it is right now, other than the gain appears as a difference between the unfiltered/filtered graphs on the PvA and peak spectrum.

I feel very strongly that a MV adjustment should be accounted for at least when designing a BEQ. Looking at the extreme cases such as Black Panther and San Andreas, hardly anyone other then @MKtheater is listening to those two mixes at the same volume level. If I don't adjust for this, then I have somewhat of an unknown target for the BEQ, and once the listener inevitably makes a MV adjustment, it would totally throw off the target of the BEQ that I aimed for. One could certainly argue that the ReplayGain adjustment from JRiver is less than perfect, but it is pretty damn good in my testing, much better than anything else that is so quick and easy to run, and certainly much, much better than nothing. I thank you immensely for bringing that to my attention.

This then brings us to the display/presentation of a BEQ and whether the MV adjustment should be included in this. I also feel strongly that it should, for very similar reasons. After all, I have designed the BEQ around this adjustment, and if we've tuned our systems to how we like it with a "normal" BEQ mix with ULF at certain levels, having the display be on more of a level playing field and more consistent with where we will end up adjusting our MV to, whether by ear or following the ReplayGain recommendations. Again, it's admittedly not perfect, but it gets us really close. Any personal preference adjustment from there will be relatively minor.

I think Black Panther is such a good example, because pretty much everyone and their mother, and even Granny Soundbar, will crank that mix up. So really, I don't see much value in displaying that mix as-is without a MV adjustment, compared to displaying it with a reasonable and recommended MV adjustment that the BEQ is optimized for, and what will end up being close to what most people will adjust that mix to. We know what a good peak spectrum looks like, and I feel like the BEQ of Black Panther deserves to look as good as it will be once some one dials up the BEQ and raises their MV, as they inevitably will. Without the MV adjustment, that mix still looks pretty anemic, but with BEQ and MV adjustment, that mix is downright solid!

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
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post #2984 of 7427 Old 12-12-2018, 05:01 PM
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Yep that graphs looks fantastic on Black Panther!! ..the BEQ'd PVA and Spec + the 6db MV adj. Good timing on this one as I didn't ever quite finish it up and will give it a spin soon at full tilt. Full tilt for me is usually right around -10mv with bass on average 10-12db hot, so bass is around ref. I think +6db on the MV is perfect on this one as I remember -4mv sounding just about right to me for overall loudness.

I'm actually looking forward to this one as I've kind of been thinking that I need to finish it up anyway. I've tried watching this one before 3-4 times in the past (non-atmos version) and just couldn't ever make it all the way though for whatever reason even though I thought it was a pretty decent movie. Now with BEQ (and Atmos), if the bass is as good as the graph shows, it ought to make a real nice diff, making it easy to want to finish the movie this time
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post #2985 of 7427 Old 12-12-2018, 05:10 PM
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Just a couple more thoughts...

I think a big part of it is that after taking the time to account for the loudness of a track, and specifically tailor the BEQ around that adjustment to be able to really hone in on the proper balance for that mix, I want to share it in its optimal form because I'm proud of what I've been able to coax out of it and turn it into. I'm sorry if, because of that, I came across too strongly in my opinion on this.

I also hate that tracks that are just inherently mixed hot look better on the graphs. It is rewarding them for being too loud, and when a track is too loud it is usually either clipping because of that, or out of balance to avoid clipping. I'll gladly take a track that is too quiet over one that is too loud, for that reason. At least it still has a chance to be really balanced without clipping. On the same token, I hate that a quiet track looks worse on the graphs. A mix could be absolutely perfect other than it is lower level, and it will look inferior to the Dunkirks of the world.

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
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Updated to show an example at the other extreme. Play the opening scene, the launch scene, and the black hole scene. They all have so much more sheer power and balance now instead of just the sharp 30Hz hits overpowering everything else.

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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
BassEQ Interstellar (2014) DTS-HD MA 5.1




The -5.5dB gain is a MV reduction and is not intended to be optional. You may risk clipping if you don't do it.

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
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Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
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post #2987 of 7427 Old 12-12-2018, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Just a couple more thoughts...

I think a big part of it is that after taking the time to account for the loudness of a track, and specifically tailor the BEQ around that adjustment to be able to really hone in on the proper balance for that mix, I want to share it in its optimal form because I'm proud of what I've been able to coax out of it and turn it into. I'm sorry if, because of that, I came across too strongly in my opinion on this.

I also hate that tracks that are just inherently mixed hot look better on the graphs. It is rewarding them for being too loud, and when a track is too loud it is usually either clipping because of that, or out of balance to avoid clipping. I'll gladly take a track that is too quiet over one that is too loud, for that reason. At least it still has a chance to be really balanced without clipping. On the same token, I hate that a quiet track looks worse on the graphs. A mix could be absolutely perfect other than it is lower level, and it will look inferior to the Dunkirks of the world.
It's all good, I think these MV Adjustments are right on the money! At least the 2 that I know for sure needed it. BP and Life. BP most def needs bumped but Life was loud and needed MV lowered like you prescribed in the latest update of it. -12mv is about as loud as I could handle it. Normal -10mv was too much, especially towards the end. Not really in the bass department it seemed, just overall loudness in the mids and higher I guess.

I haven't tried it on TIH yet with the MV adjustment.

What are your thoughts on some of these movies that aren't necessarily overly loud as a whole from the mids and highs that need an MV lowering to match up to the 'normal', but just too much in the mid bass area (like from around 40ish hz on up)? Take Hurricane Heist for example. I watched part of it last night and thought the Atmos track was FANTASTIC and even though I was watching at -20mv (my night time listening volume), I thought the overall loudness of the mids and highs were about right. BUT, I did think the mid bass was too loud compared to the ULF and LF and had to lower my sub trims more than normal to compensate for this. By doing this, I lost some of the amazing low end on this movie. So I went and checked the graph, an damn, its basically a straight line all the way across from 0 to 85hz up around 15 to 20. No wonder!!!

I think I'm getting so spoiled on these tracks that have a lot more slope to them from left to right, at least more slope to the right after 30hz or so. I'm already running a pretty hearty rising house curve and feels just about right on movies like It, Equalizer 2, Justice League that really have that nice slope form left to right, as well as ones that don't slope quite as much like The MEG, Batman V Superman, Jurassic World : FK etc. (yet still a pretty nice slope)

I'm getting so spoiled on these and feel that the MB to LF to ULF ratio is fantastic and much prefer these to the movies with PVA's with no or next to no slope to them. Way too much mid bass in comparison to the low end that is balanced with the LF and ULF. Hurricane Heist is this way IMO an so is Godzilla (even though Godzilla is not a ULF monster like some of these others even with BEQ). I also thought MI Fallout bordered on too much MidBass (at least in the 50hz area and takes away some of that balance of ULF/LF/MB ratio). I had to lower sub trims some on MI Fallout because of this 50hz area I think and missed out on some of the ULF (it lessened it). A reduction in this area would probably really help just like it did on Atomic Blond in the 68hz area. I think that's part of the reason I thought Equalizer 2 (even though it has super hot 20hz) just murdered MI Fallout for ULF violence (like no comparison really), as well as did It, The Meg, and others with similar sloping PVAs. The ULF to LF to MB ratios on these movies that I mentioned of having a real nice downward sloping curve to the right is just so much more enjoyable for that amazing balanced bass at all frequencies, at least it is on my system. I've worked really hard on trying to get these ratios balanced on my system, and since part of my subs are right behind me, I can usually really feel what's going on at all the frequencies.

Am I alone here, or do you guys at least somewhat agree?

I'm gonna try to finish up HH tonight and may try to put negative HS on it to bring that over 30hz area down 5-6db so I can keep my sub trim levels up where they need to be to get that great ULF without getting too much MB. I'm thinking it'll make a hell of a diff.
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post #2988 of 7427 Old 12-12-2018, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Just a couple more thoughts...

I think a big part of it is that after taking the time to account for the loudness of a track, and specifically tailor the BEQ around that adjustment to be able to really hone in on the proper balance for that mix, I want to share it in its optimal form because I'm proud of what I've been able to coax out of it and turn it into. I'm sorry if, because of that, I came across too strongly in my opinion on this.

I also hate that tracks that are just inherently mixed hot look better on the graphs. It is rewarding them for being too loud, and when a track is too loud it is usually either clipping because of that, or out of balance to avoid clipping. I'll gladly take a track that is too quiet over one that is too loud, for that reason. At least it still has a chance to be really balanced without clipping. On the same token, I hate that a quiet track looks worse on the graphs. A mix could be absolutely perfect other than it is lower level, and it will look inferior to the Dunkirks of the world.
Sorry if I came across as attacking or being critical of it. It wasn't meant to be, I was trying to understand the reason for it. I want to make sure I have it correct in my head for both thinking through the automation stuff and I've been starting to put a little more into in the git repo's readme. I want to make sure anything I put into it is accurate to not lead new user astray.

When you started doing the negative gains I had the impression that it was for tracks that were already hot to prevent them from boiling and causing equipment damage. So I'd keep at least that much of a buffer between what I'm listening at and reference level. That made sense to me. The positive gains didn't make as much sense since I don't really have a set listening level. I just always turn it up what my mood calls for and adjust based on the the track's level. So in my head I get a little bit of "I'm adding 6 to to what?" And if I'm completely honest, the graphs with positive gain are also tripping my OCD a little since they don't match up with all the old ones that don't have it.

You're explanation here is good though. I do like it that it's attempting to normalize the tracks so that they're all on a level playing field. It makes comparing movie a to movie b a bit nicer and prevents the the audio engineer from playing the loudness game to make it look better. It's similar to how having the spectrum graphs now allow for a better comparison for a movie that has good bass throughout vs one that fakes out the graph with a few big moments. I also would prefer the slightly quiet track over a Dunkirk like you said. I can't fix clipping but I can always turn it up.
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post #2989 of 7427 Old 12-12-2018, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
What are your thoughts on some of these movies that aren't necessarily overly loud as a whole from the mids and highs that need an MV lowering to match up to the 'normal', but just too much in the mid bass area (like from around 40ish hz on up)? Take Hurricane Heist for example. I watched part of it last night and thought the Atmos track was FANTASTIC and even though I was watching at -20mv (my night time listening volume), I thought the overall loudness of the mids and highs were about right. BUT, I did think the mid bass was too loud compared to the ULF and LF and had to lower my sub trims more than normal to compensate for this. By doing this, I lost some of the amazing low end on this movie. So I went and checked the graph, an damn, its basically a straight line all the way across from 0 to 85hz up around 15 to 20. No wonder!!!

Am I alone here, or do you guys at least somewhat agree?
I have almost the same thoughts exactly on this, and after doing the MV adjustments on these tracks I've been loading up some of the "normal" great tracks to compare. For example, I meant to post on the Interstellar update that the shape of it now closely resembles RP1. And TIH is one in particular that after lowering the MV and comparing, it lowered the mid bass too much and I edited it to raise the frequency of the LS filters to put it back. I also posted shortly thereafter that for that mix, lowering MV by 5dB and bumping sub trim by 5dB would work really well.
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post #2990 of 7427 Old 12-12-2018, 11:43 PM
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I do understand where you are coming from but IMV this is a target curve problem, the target can change but filters exist to hit that target and one of the interesting bits of info is how far from the target you are (hence the reason for the normalised view). Obviously I would need to add a target curve feature to support this though

I think that being able to specify a gain offset on the target curve (and automatically adjust the colour scheme to match) seems like it would do what you want.
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post #2991 of 7427 Old 12-13-2018, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Add a negative gain filter to the same master signal above to increase headroom so that it is no longer negative on any of the channels .
Two things to note here relating to peak level

Firstly leaving zero headroom will leave you at risk of intersample peaks beyond full scale. Secondly the peak level of the full signal may be (probably will be) higher than the decimated signal. Both these factors mean adjusting volume so the peak is zero is going to leave you at risk of clipping. Leaving 1-1.5dB headroom seems safer to me. Experimentation required to give a more accurate answer (iirc @aron7awol did test a few tracks to compare the difference between decimated and not and it was in the region of 1dB, might be misremembering though)
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post #2992 of 7427 Old 12-13-2018, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
Two things to note here relating to peak level

Firstly leaving zero headroom will leave you at risk of intersample peaks beyond full scale. Secondly the peak level of the full signal may be (probably will be) higher than the decimated signal. Both these factors mean adjusting volume so the peak is zero is going to leave you at risk of clipping. Leaving 1-1.5dB headroom seems safer to me. Experimentation required to give a more accurate answer (iirc @aron7awol did test a few tracks to compare the difference between decimated and not and it was in the region of 1dB, might be misremembering though)
I was intentionally vague when writing that step, in not specifying how much headroom to leave.

My initial answer to whoever asked how much headroom I would leave was basically zero, mostly because after looking at a whole bunch of tracks from the discs, so many of them have zero or almost zero headroom in many of the channels. So I figured it couldn't be that big of a deal. I also didn't consider intersample peaks until you brought it up, and I fully realize you know a lot more about this stuff than me, so since then I've abstained from giving anyone any kind of specific recommendations on headroom to leave when doing Remux-BEQ.

The difference in the one track I tested (Ready Player One) was only ~0.05dB between the peak in the full sample rate track and the peak in the decimated track. Obviously one data point isn't enough to draw any hard conclusions from, though.
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post #2993 of 7427 Old 12-13-2018, 07:33 AM
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I have 6 tracks resampled to 8kHz, so I compared the peaks between them and their corresponding 1kHz decimated tracks, and the biggest difference was 0.14dB. Obviously not a perfect test, but some more data showing the difference is likely pretty small.

Edit: I have a couple of them in 4kHz also, and those two are exactly the same (a difference of <0.001dB) as the 8kHz tracks, so it looks like there will be no significant difference once sample rate goes above 4kHz.

I guess based on all of this, leaving 0.2dB of headroom would seem pretty safe. But then accounting for intersample peaks, it's probably worth leaving 1dB or headroom or so.
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post #2994 of 7427 Old 12-13-2018, 11:12 AM
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Are the MV adjustments meant to be made at the signal or at the amp/receiver?

I’m guessing if we use a pre processor or software like JRiver they should be made at the signal level?

If I always have my signal at -15db then the mv adjustments won’t be necessary would they?
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post #2995 of 7427 Old 12-13-2018, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by TheBoom89 View Post
Are the MV adjustments meant to be made at the signal or at the amp/receiver?

I’m guessing if we use a pre processor or software like JRiver they should be made at the signal level?

If I always have my signal at -15db then the mv adjustments won’t be necessary would they?
It doesn't really matter where they are made, as long as they are made to the entire track and not just the subs.

If you are using JRiver, you could actually have it do the ReplayGain adjustments automatically if you want.

Technically, the MV adjustments aren't absolutely necessary, as long as you know what you're doing, have your signal chain set up properly, are checking clipping if doing remux, etc. If you always have your signal (are you referring to your MV?) at -15, then that's fine, I'd just be surprised if you'd watch Black Panther at the same level that you'd watch Dunkirk.
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BassEQ Dynasties (2018) Season 1 DTS-HD MA 5.1



The 5dB gain is a MV increase.

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
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post #2997 of 7427 Old 12-13-2018, 12:32 PM
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BassEQ The Big Lebowski (1998) DTS:X




The 7.5dB gain is a MV increase.

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post #2998 of 7427 Old 12-13-2018, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
If you are using JRiver, you could actually have it do the ReplayGain adjustments automatically if you want.
How? Thanks.
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post #2999 of 7427 Old 12-13-2018, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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The Dude Abides!

Thanks Aron,

I was going to put in a request when I first got this one in October,
One of my all-time Favorites, a Coen Brothers Classic!

I've already spun the 4K/UHD 3 times, Awesome Day Drinking movie
BEQ will give me an excuse to spin it again









(screen shots from my JVC X750(RS500) 120" 16:9 screen, Samsung S9 smartphone camera)

The Unfinished Basement Theater & Whisky Guitar Lounge | Bass EQ for Filtered Movies
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post #3000 of 7427 Old 12-13-2018, 12:47 PM
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The Dude Abides!

Thanks Aron,

I was going to put in a request when I first got this one in October,
One of my all-time Favorites, a Coen Brothers Classic!

I've already spun the 4K/UHD 3 times, Awesome Day Drinking movie
BEQ will give me an excuse to spin it again
This one was done mostly for you, my friend! I remembered you had mentioned it a while back.
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Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
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