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post #4711 of 8059 Old 02-13-2019, 08:32 PM
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We really liked The Girl in the Spider's Web! Great sound design!
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post #4712 of 8059 Old 02-13-2019, 08:42 PM
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^^^ I forget, was the routing matrix a part of this merge function?

On the 2x4 it isn’t that big, but us with a 10x10 it is a 10x10 matrix as opposed to your puny 2x4 one.

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post #4713 of 8059 Old 02-13-2019, 09:02 PM
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@aron7awol : what do you make of this?

On my Denons i have a function called Bass Sync, which supposedly helps when the LFE track on a blu-ray is delayed. From the manual:



I have never encountered such a case, but am i understanding this correct that this means i have the option of advancing the LFE track, thereby getting more negative delay for the MA’s?
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post #4714 of 8059 Old 02-13-2019, 09:09 PM
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^^^ oh man, wouldn't that be awesome if it worked!!
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post #4715 of 8059 Old 02-14-2019, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
@aron7awol : what do you make of this?

On my Denons i have a function called Bass Sync, which supposedly helps when the LFE track on a blu-ray is delayed.

I have never encountered such a case, but am i understanding this correct that this means i have the option of advancing the LFE track, thereby getting more negative delay for the MA’s?
Good find! Definitely worth a shot!

Edit: Hmm, as I think about this more, the way it's described it sounds like it might be just negatively delaying the LFE track, but not the redirected bass from the other channels? That could create misalignment between coherent bass that exists in the mains and LFE. Easy enough to test with REW, though.

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post #4716 of 8059 Old 02-14-2019, 07:47 AM
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First Remux using BEQ

Had a successful BEQ remux yesterday. Ended up re-muxing the entire Black Panther movie and watched it from beginning to end late last night/early this morning Kept smiling every time my favorite scenes were on the screen as I was enjoying the new-found ULF! Awesome. And, this was at -20dB MV. Can't wait to crank it later! I also have the Black Panther soundtrack on vinyl and was familiar with some of the rhythmic drums that happen throughout the movie. This was the first time those drum beats sounded as deep and full as they do on my 2 channel rig.

A big Thank You to @3ll3d00d for such a super-easy UI for BEQ Designer and to @aron7awol and others on this thread for helping to mold the BEQ Designer into what it is today.

A couple observations / questions:

1. My blu-ray of Black Panther is DTS-MA only as most of my Blu-Ray collection is 2K only and I haven't jumped on the 4K Atmos wagon yet....yeah I know lame. I found the BEQ filters that BEQ Designer pulls in automatically didn't deliver the ULF experience I was expecting. In hindsight, this makes sense because the Atmos mix was likely much different than the DTS-MA mix....does this sound correct?

2. After designing my own BEQ filter for the DTS-MA mix and re-muxing, I found the .mkv files sizes grow significantly. I could reduce the file size by not including the original soundtrack but the sizes were still about 150% bigger than the original .mkv's. If I included the original soundtrack, the file size was almost double in size after re-mux. Are there any tricks to making these re-muxed file sizes about the same as the original .mkv?

3. I'm presuming some of the file size observations are due to the re-mux happening at a constant bit rate (CBR). If this is true, could there be an option to re-mux with VBR or other methods?....just thinking out loud here.

4. Lastly, I found quite a bit of negative gain was needed (-13dB) to the BEQ signal to avoid running out of headroom when looking at the waveform graphs for each channel. I had the "filtered?" box checked when looking at those waveforms and determining the negative gain values for each channel. Did I do this correctly? Should there be any other boxes checked....-13dB just seemed a bit high relative to other BEQ's I've seen here.

Can't wait for this weekend to re-mux a few other demo-worthy scenes and place them on our plex server for effortless playback!

Thanks so much guys!
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post #4717 of 8059 Old 02-14-2019, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Good find! Definitely worth a shot!

Edit: Hmm, as I think about this more, the way it's described it sounds like it might be just negatively delaying the LFE track, but not the redirected bass from the other channels? That could create misalignment between coherent bass that exists in the mains and LFE. Easy enough to test with REW, though.
Hmm, yeah like i said i have never heard of any bluray needing such a thing, but you may be right about the LFE track only. Question is how to measure it.....

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post #4718 of 8059 Old 02-14-2019, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Hmm, yeah like i said i have never heard of any bluray needing such a thing, but you may be right about the LFE track only. Question is how to measure it.....
Seems like an odd feature, since when has the lfe track had a disc specific delay in it?

To measure the effect, I would use rew with a reliable timing reference.
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post #4719 of 8059 Old 02-14-2019, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
Seems like an odd feature, since when has the lfe track had a disc specific delay in it?

To measure the effect, I would use rew with a reliable timing reference.
Agreed. Until this negative delay talk came about I was actually reading it wrong and thought it added delay, not removing it, so yeah it could be a cool feature in this case.

Yes, the delay itself should be possible to measure in REW, but i meant the redirected LFE form the other channels. Is there way to include redirected bass to a REW measurement?

If is works as Aron suggests and just advance the LFE track and not the redirected, it would muddy up a correct signal. Agreed?


(BTW: sure enough, as the manual say, this can be done on a track with LFE signal. So that function is greyed out playing a 2.0 source)

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post #4720 of 8059 Old 02-14-2019, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Yes, the delay itself should be possible to measure in REW, but i meant the redirected LFE form the other channels. Is there way to include redirected bass to a REW measurement?
A quick comparison playing through channel 4 (LFE) and one of the other channels should do the trick.
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post #4721 of 8059 Old 02-14-2019, 09:43 AM
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If you have a reliable timing reference then you can just measure them independently and verify that only the lfe moves when you use that open.


If you don't, and don't have a mixer between rew and the audio output, then I would probably use an external sweep method, i.e. save a measurement sweep as a wav (include the timing signal) then open that in audacity (or similar), export as a 7.1 track so you have the real signal on the lfe plus some other channel. Play this back and measure the result with and without the bass sync option set. If it moves just the lfe then you should see a disturbance in the fr. Simulate this using trace arithmetic to check what to expect.
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post #4722 of 8059 Old 02-14-2019, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhought View Post
1. My blu-ray of Black Panther is DTS-MA only as most of my Blu-Ray collection is 2K only and I haven't jumped on the 4K Atmos wagon yet....yeah I know lame. I found the BEQ filters that BEQ Designer pulls in automatically didn't deliver the ULF experience I was expecting. In hindsight, this makes sense because the Atmos mix was likely much different than the DTS-MA mix....does this sound correct?

2. After designing my own BEQ filter for the DTS-MA mix and re-muxing, I found the .mkv files sizes grow significantly. I could reduce the file size by not including the original soundtrack but the sizes were still about 150% bigger than the original .mkv's. If I included the original soundtrack, the file size was almost double in size after re-mux. Are there any tricks to making these re-muxed file sizes about the same as the original .mkv?

3. I'm presuming some of the file size observations are due to the re-mux happening at a constant bit rate (CBR). If this is true, could there be an option to re-mux with VBR or other methods?....just thinking out loud here.

4. Lastly, I found quite a bit of negative gain was needed (-13dB) to the BEQ signal to avoid running out of headroom when looking at the waveform graphs for each channel. I had the "filtered?" box checked when looking at those waveforms and determining the negative gain values for each channel. Did I do this correctly? Should there be any other boxes checked....-13dB just seemed a bit high relative to other BEQ's I've seen here.
Did you read the remux tutorial in my sig yet?

DTS-HD MA mix might be different than the Atmos mix. Since you've graphed the DTS-HD mix, you can tell us!

Default audio format on remux is PCM which will have very large file sizes, but you should be able to change that to FLAC or something else to save space.

Significant negative gain is normal on the individual channels when doing BEQ remux. -13dB is a lot but I believe it.
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post #4723 of 8059 Old 02-14-2019, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
^^^ I forget, was the routing matrix a part of this merge function?

On the 2x4 it isn’t that big, but us with a 10x10 it is a 10x10 matrix as opposed to your puny 2x4 one.
Yes on the routing matrix. The 10x10 isn't supported though. Right now it's just for the 2x4HD since your 10x10 only has a puny 6 filters. Handling the title that have >6 will be a little tricky. I could do an option right away though that would only do the first 6 filters for titles at 96kHz. That would probably cover you for 90+% of them.
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post #4724 of 8059 Old 02-14-2019, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Did you read the remux tutorial in my sig yet?

DTS-HD MA mix might be different than the Atmos mix. Since you've graphed the DTS-HD mix, you can tell us!

Default audio format on remux is PCM which will have very large file sizes, but you should be able to change that to FLAC or something else to save space.

Significant negative gain is normal on the individual channels when doing BEQ remux. -13dB is a lot but I believe it.
Aron.....Thanks for the feedback....that's re-assuring. Oh yeah, definitley read your how-to....couldn't have done it without your help!

I'll have to try the .flac format to see the impact to improvement in file size and also any impact to audio fidelity....Thanks for the tip!

Here's a screenshot I took last night/early morning after my "home-made" BEQ for Black Panther....definitely different. In retrospect, I probably should have used a different Q for the 5 Hz low-shelf or maybe another biquad at the 5Hz LS gain....still learning

Apologize for the formatting....I just took a quick screen grab in case I needed to go back to it for some reason and it was getting late.

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Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
I don't import anything to my miniDSP, its all manual for me, one at a time (old school lol)


Desert Dog is still working on a way to automate the load process
for those who want to just DL the entire BEQ movie list in GitHub without disrupting your personal output channel settings
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Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
As far as I know the import only works on biquads. You have to convert to them first. A couple users on here do that. BEQDesigner will do the conversion. What you describe is an issue though. I'm working on an app that will take your house curve and merge it with the save file to get one that you can then load. If you're a mac user you can actually use it now. Join the BEQBrowser-dev channel in the slack group. I have the first beta posted in it. Windows will be coming but I need to be able to build an exe first.
Windows user here . Yeah if we can just import the EQ, that would be awesome. I don't mind to be the first Beta Tester . There are two approaches
1 - You include the existing settings from Output as you described. In this case, you'd have to not only include PEQ but also CO and gains and phase. Basically anything that user can change on output tab. Plus you'd have to also consider what inputs/outputs user is using. So this approach looks like a lot of work + things to worry about.

2 - 2nd approach is to just provide a way to import the PEQ. User can go to Advance and import. You won't have to worry about any of the existing settings user has. Also if the adjustment needs a gain to be adjusted, we can include that info in the file name to let the user know that gain needs to be adjusted.
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post #4726 of 8059 Old 02-14-2019, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by trhought View Post
I'll have to try the .flac format to see the impact to improvement in file size and also any impact to audio fidelity....Thanks for the tip!

Here's a screenshot I took last night/early morning after my "home-made" BEQ for Black Panther....definitely different. In retrospect, I probably should have used a different Q for the 5 Hz low-shelf or maybe another biquad at the 5Hz LS gain....still learning
FLAC will reduce size a lot and will maintain the same quality (it is lossless, after all).

You should decimate and mix-to-mono in order to compare with my graph.

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
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Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
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post #4727 of 8059 Old 02-14-2019, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post


2 - 2nd approach is to just provide a way to import the PEQ. User can go to Advance and import. You won't have to worry about any of the existing settings user has. Also if the adjustment needs a gain to be adjusted, we can include that info in the file name to let the user know that gain needs to be adjusted.
I'm essentially doing this. Beq designer has a facility to load in the
.Xml files from the Git. (alt-f, q) and then save a .txt file (ctrl-b), set to 96hz for the 2x4HD - which is part of the issue, bi quads for the non HD are 48hz iirc. Save.
Then i go to input, PEQ, advanced, load and select the file. I'm building up quite a library of files which means a second listening is just the last bit!

Saves my sub time alignment, PEQ before dirac and my buttkicker adjustment filters

I'm down to about 30 seconds once things have loaded!

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post #4728 of 8059 Old 02-14-2019, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
Windows user here . Yeah if we can just import the EQ, that would be awesome. I don't mind to be the first Beta Tester . There are two approaches
1 - You include the existing settings from Output as you described. In this case, you'd have to not only include PEQ but also CO and gains and phase. Basically anything that user can change on output tab. Plus you'd have to also consider what inputs/outputs user is using. So this approach looks like a lot of work + things to worry about.

2 - 2nd approach is to just provide a way to import the PEQ. User can go to Advance and import. You won't have to worry about any of the existing settings user has. Also if the adjustment needs a gain to be adjusted, we can include that info in the file name to let the user know that gain needs to be adjusted.
How it works right now is along the lines of 1. The input PEQ filters are mine but every other setting is preserved.
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post #4729 of 8059 Old 02-14-2019, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post

Significant negative gain is normal on the individual channels when doing BEQ remux. -13dB is a lot but I believe it.

Book of Eli took -17 for me so not unexpected from my small sample size of 2 BEQ remuxes
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post #4730 of 8059 Old 02-14-2019, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaric View Post
I'm essentially doing this. Beq designer has a facility to load in the
.Xml files from the Git. (alt-f, q) and then save a .txt file (ctrl-b), set to 96hz for the 2x4HD - which is part of the issue, bi quads for the non HD are 48hz iirc. Save.
Then i go to input, PEQ, advanced, load and select the file. I'm building up quite a library of files which means a second listening is just the last bit!

Saves my sub time alignment, PEQ before dirac and my buttkicker adjustment filters

I'm down to about 30 seconds once things have loaded!

Sent from my HTC U11 using Tapatalk
Sweet. Followed your instructions. So basically the whole process of getting a Biquad file is to
1 - Download the designer https://github.com/3ll3d00d/beqdesigner/releases/0.5.5. Use this link since its the latest version.
2 - Install it
3 - Load the designer
4 - Load the xml file using File --> Load Filter (Alt-F,Q).
5 - Designer will render the FR on screen



6 - Click On File --> Export Biquads (Alt-F, Ctrl-B)
7 - On the dialog, select sample rate that is appropriate to your device. For 2x4, select 48000, for 2x4 HD, select 96000.
8 - Click inside the box where all the filters are displayed.
9 - Press Ctrl A+C. This selects all the filters and copies into the clipboard.
10 - Open Windows Explorer and create a text file (file with extension with txt).
11 - Open the text file and paste the info from clipboard by pressing Ctrl V.
12 - Save file.
13 - Open minidsp 2x4. Click in PEQ in Input tab section. Click on Advance. Click on Import.

Now you have sucessfully uploaded all the PEQ without loosing any of your custom curve or any other settings.
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post #4731 of 8059 Old 02-14-2019, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
FLAC will reduce size a lot and will maintain the same quality (it is lossless, after all).

You should decimate and mix-to-mono in order to compare with my graph.
Aron....Thanks for the tip on mix-to-mono to simplify the graphs. I'll give .flac a try and report back.

With my 5.1 surround music, I could always tell a difference between 5.1 flac and 5.1 PCM ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I avoided it for that reason, but will revisit. Wasn't expecting the files sizes to grow so much just for an audio remux since the audio is only 3-4% of the movie file typically....most of it is video which is why I was surprised. Makes me think there's something going on with the bit rate when re-muxing? Either that, or it's the awesome BEQ that needs room to breathe....lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Younger38 View Post
Book of Eli took -17 for me so not unexpected from my small sample size of 2 BEQ remuxes
Younger....Thanks....great to hear....sounds like I'm on the right track....have you tried .flac yet. Just curious if the fidelity is as good as PCM?
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post #4732 of 8059 Old 02-14-2019, 12:02 PM
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Input is compressed, output is not == big files
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post #4733 of 8059 Old 02-14-2019, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by trhought View Post
With my 5.1 surround music, I could always tell a difference between 5.1 flac and 5.1 PCM ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I avoided it for that reason, but will revisit. Wasn't expecting the files sizes to grow so much just for an audio remux since the audio is only 3-4% of the movie file typically....most of it is video which is why I was surprised. Makes me think there's something going on with the bit rate when re-muxing? Either that, or it's the awesome BEQ that needs room to breathe....lol.
Unless you did ABX testing, there's too much placebo in audio for us to trust ourselves It's extremely, extremely unlikely you can tell a difference between PCM and FLAC.

The filesize growth to PCM only depends on the efficiency of the original codec. PCM will take up the same space with or without BEQ.
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Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
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post #4734 of 8059 Old 02-14-2019, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
How it works right now is along the lines of 1. The input PEQ filters are mine but every other setting is preserved.
Got it. Thx.


Quote:
Saves my sub time alignment, PEQ before dirac and my buttkicker adjustment filters

I'm down to about 30 seconds once things have loaded!

Sent from my HTC U11 using Tapatalk
Since you are also using Dirac, I'm assuming you are also using the BM? If not, do get it. Its awesome. If you are then another benefit of being able to import is that we don't need to mess around with minidsp at all. We can upload all using PEQ on sub using BM .
Also, are you sharing the files you have already converted?
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post #4735 of 8059 Old 02-14-2019, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by trhought View Post
Aron....Thanks for the tip on mix-to-mono to simplify the graphs. I'll give .flac a try and report back.

With my 5.1 surround music, I could always tell a difference between 5.1 flac and 5.1 PCM ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I avoided it for that reason, but will revisit. Wasn't expecting the files sizes to grow so much just for an audio remux since the audio is only 3-4% of the movie file typically....most of it is video which is why I was surprised. Makes me think there's something going on with the bit rate when re-muxing? Either that, or it's the awesome BEQ that needs room to breathe....lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Unless you did ABX testing, there's too much placebo in audio for us to trust ourselves It's extremely, extremely unlikely you can tell a difference between PCM and FLAC.

The filesize growth to PCM only depends on the efficiency of the original codec. PCM will take up the same space with or without BEQ.
I had to look up what ABX Testing was as I thought it was Double Blind Testing, but not quite. So I'll post this explanation for the benefit of others as well...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Butterworth | July 20, 2015
Here's how ABX testing works: The ABX box presents two audio signals, A and B, plus a third, X. X is either A or B; the assignment is random, and it changes (or doesn't change) with every trial. So you listen to A, listen to B, listen to X, and then decide whether X is A or B. Then you or the test administrator activates a function on the ABX box that displays whether X was A or B for each trial.

Random guessing will, after enough trials, result in correct selections 50 percent of the time. So, to prove there's a significant difference between A and B, you'd have to correctly identify X somewhere between 50 and 100 percent of the time. Even someone randomly guessing might get 6 or 7 out of 10 right, so the results aren't meaningful unless you can do even better than that. For a 95 percent confidence level (a typical standard for statistical significance), you'd have to have correct identifications on 23 out of 24 trials. That's three test sessions on the AVA ABX, which provides eight trials per test session--quite a high hurdle.

A and B can be, well, anything: two speakers, two amplifiers, two preamps, two cables, two types of digital music files, etc.

The problem for audiophiles is, ABX testing has, to date, rarely revealed differences in sound among audio electronics components. This is why the debate about ABX testing became so fierce when the process emerged in the 1980s.

On one side, we have millions of audio enthusiasts and professionals who report hearing differences among audio electronics, between hi-res files and standard-res files, etc. And 50,000,000 fans can't be wrong, right? They present many scientific (or at least scientific-sounding) reasons why ABX testing is invalid. Some of those reasons are obviously questionable, as I'll detail below. And of course, audio writers are unlikely to embrace a methodology that may cast doubt on their previous written statements, and that might threaten their status as opinion-makers; and enthusiasts who just spent $5,000 on an amplifier don't want to hear that it's no better than a $300 receiver.

https://hometheaterreview.com/why-do...r-abx-testing/

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post #4736 of 8059 Old 02-14-2019, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
A quick comparison playing through channel 4 (LFE) and one of the other channels should do the trick.
The problem is separating the redirected from the LFE.
Ok, so:

LFE only:
Use ch. 1(front left) and ch. 4(LFE) in REW. Set front to large in AVR(no redirected LFE).
Measure LFE only(disconnect fronts) with Bass sync off(0ms) and on(16ms). Look at the result impulse respons, they should both look exactly the same only moved in the time domain.

LFE +redirected LFE:
Use same measurements as in above, only set front to small in AVR(redirected LFE).

If using Bass sync on only advances the LFE, wouldn’t that measurement look different than with it off?

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post #4737 of 8059 Old 02-14-2019, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
The problem is separating the redirected from the LFE.
I'm not sure what you mean?

This is what I was thinking:
Channel 4 is LFE, so if you play a bass tone just through that channel, there's no redirected bass.
If you play a bass tone in one of the other channels (well below the crossover point), it will be purely redirected bass.

So you just have to test both without the setting enabled, and both with the setting enabled, and see what's affected. I was thinking something like a sweep from 20-30Hz with a timing reference maybe?

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Last edited by aron7awol; 02-14-2019 at 02:51 PM.
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post #4738 of 8059 Old 02-14-2019, 03:01 PM
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^^ Ok, i will look into it

@3ll3d00d : thanks for the input, but i am sorry to say i have no clue how to do what you suggested, LOL.
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post #4739 of 8059 Old 02-14-2019, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
Sweet. Followed your instructions. So basically the whole process of getting a Biquad file is to

1 - Download the designer https://github.com/3ll3d00d/beqdesigner/releases/0.5.5. Use this link since its the latest version.

2 - Install it

3 - Load the designer

4 - Load the xml file using File --> Load Filter (Alt-F,Q).

5 - Designer will render the FR on screen







6 - Click On File --> Export Biquads (Alt-F, Ctrl-B)

7 - On the dialog, select sample rate that is appropriate to your device. For 2x4, select 48000, for 2x4 HD, select 96000.

8 - Click inside the box where all the filters are displayed.

9 - Press Ctrl A+C. This selects all the filters and copies into the clipboard.

10 - Open Windows Explorer and create a text file (file with extension with txt).

11 - Open the text file and paste the info from clipboard by pressing Ctrl V.

12 - Save file.

13 - Open minidsp 2x4. Click in PEQ in Input tab section. Click on Advance. Click on Import.



Now you have sucessfully uploaded all the PEQ without loosing any of your custom curve or any other settings.
At 8 hit the save icon.... Save as .txt file - if you do it in the same folder and type the first couple of characters, it fills in the name, though delete the .xml ending or it saves wrong

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post #4740 of 8059 Old 02-14-2019, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post



Since you are also using Dirac, I'm assuming you are also using the BM? If not, do get it. Its awesome. If you are then another benefit of being able to import is that we don't need to mess around with minidsp at all. We can upload all using PEQ on sub using BM .

Also, are you sharing the files you have already converted?
I've not got the BM plugin.... Not seen the need... Though I've probably not fully investigated what quite it does over Dirac!
I got the 2x4HD to do time alignment as previously I had (still have but not using) a svs as-eq1 though that was stacking filters.... Wanted to try BEQ as well as have multiple bass outs for other bits

No idea where / how to share.....i did wonder about a script to batch convert though never delved into the . Xml fully as I'm guessing there is some mechanism in there holding the details. Once the Beqdesigner route was mentioned I've just done it adhoc as needed - in theory a set of 48hz and 96hz files could be created, they are all of 2k each!

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Sound - Marantz SR6011 (pre/atmos), Yamaha Z9, Mirage Om-6's, Om-C2's, 6x Om-R2's, 4x Nanosat (atmos), Dual Paradigim Servo 15's
Additional - MiniDSP : DDRC-88a, 2x4HD
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