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post #31 of 8847 Old 08-09-2018, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
Just for Sub adjustments and BEQ,
the non-HD 2x4 should work fine if you already have it.
...if not try it and decide for yourself if you want to upgrade.

My original miniDSP 2x4 (non HD model)
No 12v power transformer, lower voltage 0.9v in-out RCA signal,
5 band EQ, no optical input, no USB audio, no IR receiver for remote control.

New miniDSP 2x4HD includes:
12v power supply, higher voltage 2.0v input/output RCA signal, 10 Band EQ, Digi-Optical (Toslink) input, IR Receiver for remote control,
USB streaming, Faster processing but that's probably more important for higher frequency DSP function (Full Range speakers).

Plus whatever advantages are in the HD1 software plug-in.

(but to be fair, I have yet to use either for BEQ)




Whilst I have the non-HD MiniDSP, in hindsight with a little more knowledge, I probably should have bought the HD version.
Along with the increased voltage ( 2.0V to 4.0V in the HD ) the other very major advantage of the HD over the non-HD is the available output delay.
The non-HD caps out at 7.2ms which equates to 2.479m, whereas the HD provides up to 80ms!!!!
When it comes to time aligning two or more Subs this allows a massive amount of flexibilty in Sub placement. Especially if you have a big room.
REW shows that, whilst I could get close, my two Subs are too far apart to get perfect alignment within the 7.2ms max delay cut off.
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Last edited by IMDave; 08-09-2018 at 12:43 PM.
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post #32 of 8847 Old 08-09-2018, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMDave View Post
Whilst I have the non-HD MiniDSP, in hindsight with a little more knowledge, I probably should have bought the HD version.
Along with the increased voltage ( 2.0V to 4.0V in the HD ) the other very major advantage of the HD over the non-HD is the available output delay.
The non-HD caps out at 7.2ms which equates to 2.479m, whereas the HD provides up to 80ms!!!!
When it comes to time aligning two or more Subs this allows a massive amount of flexibilty in Sub placement. Especially if you have a big room.
REW shows that, whilst I could get close, my two Subs are too far apart to get perfect alignment within the 7.2ms max delay cut off.

Great Point! added to previous post.

...an issue I never had because my subs were all within 2.0m of MLP, but that may be a deal breaker for some.

Thanks Dave!
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post #33 of 8847 Old 08-09-2018, 01:27 PM
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In sort of a follow up to Ruppgu's question for BEQ for noob's, do you need a certain amount of subwooferage to both take advantage of and not overwork your subs? For instance, would you do more harm than good trying this with a single 10" sub in a large room? I have a V1500 and an XV15SE in my living room (17x13x8) and open to a small dining room.
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post #34 of 8847 Old 08-09-2018, 03:11 PM
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Something to be aware is that boosting at low frequencies will require more power then boosting at say 80hz.
Doing so will potentially rob you of mid bass spl unless you have headroom. If you are already on the brink of clipping then you need more cones.

Boosting at 14hz with a sub ported at 18hz isnt going to help unless chuffing is the goal, you will need to tailor to your own setup, ie raise the beq from 14 to 20. Would still make for improvements on some films.

This isnt doable for the guy with a 10" sub. Personally I wouldnt buy a mini and attempt without at least 2 well powered subs. Would be easy enough to bottom out a driver if you dont know your subs capability's.

Even if you arent ready for BEQ, the minidsp will do wonders on dialing in a sub until you have he firepower to do it. Ill put it this way, if the minidsp didnt improve things for you, you are doing it wrong.
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post #35 of 8847 Old 08-09-2018, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
Something to be aware is that boosting at low frequencies will require more power then boosting at say 80hz.
Doing so will potentially rob you of mid bass spl unless you have headroom. If you are already on the brink of clipping then you need more cones.

Boosting at 14hz with a sub ported at 18hz isnt going to help unless chuffing is the goal, you will need to tailor to your own setup, ie raise the beq from 14 to 20. Would still make for improvements on some films.

This isnt doable for the guy with a 10" sub. Personally I wouldnt buy a mini and attempt without at least 2 well powered subs. Would be easy enough to bottom out a driver if you dont know your subs capability's.

Even if you arent ready for BEQ, the minidsp will do wonders on dialing in a sub until you have he firepower to do it. Ill put it this way, if the minidsp didnt improve things for you, you are doing it wrong.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but just want to clarify for others that anyone, before they even think about attempting BEQ, should at least have their subs properly set up so that they can play War of the Worlds at the loudest level they ever listen at without killing their subs. As long as that requirement is met, there really shouldn't be any major risk doing BEQ, even for a guy with an 18Hz tuned sub. After all, that sub should have a proper HPF on it, so the BEQ mix doesn't have any more of a chance of killing the sub than WotW does. Of course, someone with response lower than 18Hz can gain more from BEQ, but there are plenty (probably even the majority) of mixes that are rolling off significantly higher than 18Hz, so that person can still take advantage of BEQ and get the most out of their particular setup with a particular mix.

Edit to add: For this reason, the same BEQ I use should be able to be used as-is by someone with higher tuned subs. If the HPF doesn't protect them, they have bigger problems and simply aren't set up properly for full-bandwidth movies either.

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
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Last edited by aron7awol; 08-09-2018 at 05:04 PM.
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post #36 of 8847 Old 08-09-2018, 03:53 PM
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Thanks, watching this now with low shelf at 24Hz with 5dB×7 for 35dB but no HPF.

Edit to add: just no real ULF to be found in the first which makes sense for a movie this old.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Predator (1987) BEQ

LS 24Hz Q0.9 5dB x 6 (30dB total)
HPF 18Hz 48dB/oct

I combined a big low shelf and a steep HPF in order to get a steep enough boost from 20-35Hz while dropping off quickly below that to avoid boosting noise. This seems like the best compromise for this film, where it should add that nice tactile feedback at the upper fringes of ULF.


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post #37 of 8847 Old 08-09-2018, 04:12 PM
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BassEQ The Greatest Showman (2017) Atmos



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Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
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post #38 of 8847 Old 08-09-2018, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
Something to be aware is that boosting at low frequencies will require more power then boosting at say 80hz.
Doing so will potentially rob you of mid bass spl unless you have headroom. If you are already on the brink of clipping then you need more cones.

Boosting at 14hz with a sub ported at 18hz isnt going to help unless chuffing is the goal, you will need to tailor to your own setup, ie raise the beq from 14 to 20. Would still make for improvements on some films.

This isnt doable for the guy with a 10" sub. Personally I wouldnt buy a mini and attempt without at least 2 well powered subs. Would be easy enough to bottom out a driver if you dont know your subs capability's.

Even if you arent ready for BEQ, the minidsp will do wonders on dialing in a sub until you have he firepower to do it. Ill put it this way, if the minidsp didnt improve things for you, you are doing it wrong.
Hmmmm this gives me a little pause because I only have a 1 sub set up but it's a really nice sub (PSA V1811). I figured I would be able to handle doing some BEQ... I don't want to throw $200 away though. I understand that thought that someone with a very little sub won't be able to handle it.
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post #39 of 8847 Old 08-09-2018, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruppgu View Post
Hmmmm this gives me a little pause because I only have a 1 sub set up but it's a really nice sub (PSA V1811). I figured I would be able to handle doing some BEQ... I don't want to throw $200 away though. I understand that thought that someone with a very little sub won't be able to handle it.
Your sub can definitely handle it and get a good amount of benefit from it. Please read my post a few posts up.
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post #40 of 8847 Old 08-09-2018, 05:17 PM
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The BEQ FAQ

1. Is BEQ dangerous?

I totally understand the fear of asking a sub to do too much and blowing it up. I also understand people thinking, "OMGZ, 20-30dB boost down into the teens and single digits! My sub is now a smoke machine!" Those boosts do look really scary, without the proper context.

I think the important thing is not to look at it like we're boosting our subs by 20-30dB. We're really not. We're boosting super-low level content within the mix by 20-30dB to bring it back up to normal levels that exist in content that is readily available and played on those same subs every day without batting an eye. That goes for huge subs, tiny subs, ported subs, sealed subs, subs of all shapes and sizes. Even the guy with the 10" sub should be able to BEQ without any fear of breaking his sub. Granted, he won't get much benefit if his sub only digs down to 25Hz, and that might be a reason for him not to bother with BEQ, but danger should not be.

Now, all that being said, if you do something ignorant/stupid/forgetful and leave the shelves enabled and play War of the Worlds, that's another story. But that's not any more irresponsible than running your 10" sub 20dB hot with a house curve and no HPF. Any full-bandwidth content will be doing the same kind of damage at that point. So for the newbies, tread carefully, study up, read the FAQ, make sure you know what you're doing, and then there's nothing to be afraid of. Jump in with two feet. The water's warm. Actually, it's blistering hot, because if you're reading this thread, that's how you like your bass!

2. Why do you use multiple small filters instead of one big one?

The reason for using multiple smaller filters is twofold:
1. You can achieve a steeper slope with lower Q, and thus less overshoot.
2. A lower frequency, a higher Q, and a higher gain will all push the biquad coefficients closer to the limitations of their precision. Using multiple smaller filters will help with a lower Q and lower gain, giving those biquad coefficients more "headroom" as far as their precision limitations. This can be especially important with the MiniDSP 2x4HD, because it uses 96kHz sample rate which eats into that headroom. Running into the precision limitations would manifest itself as "error" in the implementation of the filters in the DSP. In other words, the actual result of the filter would differ from the expected result.
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Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
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Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4

Last edited by aron7awol; 11-08-2018 at 07:31 AM.
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post #41 of 8847 Old 08-10-2018, 06:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I feel like I need write some sort of BEQ FAQ to cover some important topics at some point...

1. Is BEQ dangerous?

Spoiler!
Thanks Aron, Good work my friend!
...added a link to your FAQ post on the OP right near the WARNING label.

Feel free to add more as concerns/questions come up.
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post #42 of 8847 Old 08-10-2018, 07:12 AM
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Well I did it... I ordered a minidsp hd. Coming Sunday. Excited to try it out on Infinity War when it comes out Tuesday!

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post #43 of 8847 Old 08-10-2018, 03:38 PM
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BassEQ G.I. Joe: The Rise of Cobra (2009) DTS-HD MA 5.1



Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
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post #44 of 8847 Old 08-11-2018, 09:42 AM
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BassEQ G.I. Joe: Retaliation (2013) TrueHD 7.1



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post #45 of 8847 Old 08-11-2018, 11:05 AM
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BEQ Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015) Atmos


Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
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post #46 of 8847 Old 08-11-2018, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Avengers: Age of Ultron BEQ

LS 16Hz Q0.9 4dB x 4 (16dB total)

@aron7awol I am going to experiment with adapting your A:AoU BEQ for EQs with the 20Hz limit.

In the meanwhile, what are the effects of simply applying the filters at 20Hz [in your estimation]?
"LS 20Hz Q0.9 4dB x 4"
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post #47 of 8847 Old 08-11-2018, 01:30 PM
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@aron7awol I am going to experiment with adapting your A:AoU BEQ for EQs with the 20Hz limit.

In the meanwhile, what are the effects of simply applying the filters at 20Hz [in your estimation]?
"LS 20Hz Q0.9 4dB x 4"
The frequency specified for the LS is the midpoint of the shelf. So in that case your shelf will be +8dB @ 20Hz. This means your shelf will be boosting more than mine, and I'm already boosting it to pretty much flat.

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
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Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
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post #48 of 8847 Old 08-12-2018, 01:40 PM
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This thread is tickling my upgraditis.

Already got the UMIK-1 for general purposes, but looking at some of these results makes BEQ seem like a "must-have".
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post #49 of 8847 Old 08-12-2018, 02:25 PM
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Hmm, I tried out GotG2 with the following from the other thread and I didn't really notice a difference:

Low shelf q 0.7 +5.3db x3

Maybe I'll have better luck with Infinity war on Tuesday with the settings posted here. I just enter it for the input of the active config right? Can't really do it wrong unless it's supposed to be input into the output.

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post #50 of 8847 Old 08-12-2018, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruppgu View Post
Hmm, I tried out GotG2 with the following from the other thread and I didn't really notice a difference:

Low shelf q 0.7 +5.3db x3

Maybe I'll have better luck with Infinity war on Tuesday with the settings posted here. I just enter it for the input of the active config right? Can't really do it wrong unless it's supposed to be input into the output.
Can you post a screenshot of how you're entering them? Maybe I can spot something that's off.
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Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4
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post #51 of 8847 Old 08-12-2018, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Avengers: Infinity War (Atmos) BEQ

LS 16Hz Q0.8 3.5dB x 4 (14dB total)



Can't wait to watch this one this weekend!
Finally watched this last night. I'd say it's not a top notch 5 star bass flick, but with this BEQ it was great overall, and had plenty of impact. Much better than without BEQ.

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
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Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4
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post #52 of 8847 Old 08-12-2018, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Can you post a screenshot of how you're entering them? Maybe I can spot something that's off.
Sure thing. I was a little unsure about my changes to the output. I did set everything to bypass including something in my second screenshot which is maybe incorrect.
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post #53 of 8847 Old 08-12-2018, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruppgu View Post
Sure thing. I was a little unsure about my changes to the output. I did set everything to bypass including something in my second screenshot which is maybe incorrect.
Yea that would be a big part of the problem if you click "Bypass", Lol. (Only kidding of course, we all have to figure it out in the beginning) But from the looks of it the EQ filters are not bypassed but the crossovers are. It looks like it says "bypassed" when "bypass" is engaged.

Bypass does what it sounds like and bypasses any processing in that pane. So by clicking "bypass" it applies no filters at all in that pane. Same with the crossover tab, pressing bypass applies no crossovers in that tab/pane. That is why the highlighted orange line is straight through the crossover tab and the slopes are there but greyed out. Click bypass again in the crossover tab and you will see the slopes highlighted instead of the strait orange line.

Clicking "bypass" in the Eq tab should flatten the highlighted orange line out instead of being sloped like it is in your pic. It looks like the Eq filters are on in the pic.


Edit: From looking a 2nd time at the second pic you will want to leave the crossovers "bypassed" as they are now, because you have not set them to any specific values and they are at the default 1000hz "cut off freq". But if you did need those filters you would set the "cut off freq" the click "bypass" to engage them.
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post #54 of 8847 Old 08-12-2018, 05:09 PM
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Yeah i just wanted my avr to handle the crossovers so i figured i wanted it bypassed. I was screwing around with the output because i first thought the settings were entered there and at one point i lost all my bass so I started messing with the crossovers. What a tangled web i got myself in glad to hear it's likely an issue on my end.

Should high pass filter still be bypassed? That's the default.
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post #55 of 8847 Old 08-12-2018, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Cool

I finally got my new laptop ready to roll for BEQ, a fresh REW download,
UMIK-1 calibration file, plugged into my AVR's front panel HDMI port, and my first REW sweep in about 2 years





a few more pic's here: Whisky Guitar Lounge

as you can see I have a boost on my low end already (pretty generous house curve) +10dB ~14Hz
.. and still have yet to get my new miniDSP 2x4HD integrated into my system to even a few things out (next weekend for sure!)

Then onto BEQ with an Avengers Triple Feature on Saturday

(4K/UHD Steelbooks on the way for The Avengers/Age of Ultron/Infinity War)


Perhaps I'm over-thinking this, but do I have to be careful if implementing someones BEQ settings
that may have been created with a more Flat EQ on the Low end?


My dual Funk 18.0's should be good down to 10Hz, and slightly lower in-room,
But I suspect they might need a voltage bump on my Yamaha AVR's Sub pre-out ( 1.0Vrms)
up to 2.0V that I can do in the miniDSP 2x4HD with a "jumper"?

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post #56 of 8847 Old 08-12-2018, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruppgu View Post
Sure thing. I was a little unsure about my changes to the output. I did set everything to bypass including something in my second screenshot which is maybe incorrect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruppgu View Post
Yeah i just wanted my avr to handle the crossovers so i figured i wanted it bypassed. I was screwing around with the output because i first thought the settings were entered there and at one point i lost all my bass so I started messing with the crossovers. What a tangled web i got myself in glad to hear it's likely an issue on my end.

Should high pass filter still be bypassed? That's the default.
In your case it looks like you are only using a single input and a single output. If that is true, then it really doesn't matter if you enter the settings in the input or the output. I use the input myself because I use two outputs and by using the input I only have to enter them in one place.

The rest of your settings look okay to me. If you want to confirm that they are having the effect you are expecting, you can use the USB streaming capability and do sweeps using REW.
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post #57 of 8847 Old 08-12-2018, 06:50 PM
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Does the miniDSP stuff ever go on sale?

Front L&R - Polk LSiM703
Center - Polk LSiM706c
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post #58 of 8847 Old 08-12-2018, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
Perhaps I'm over-thinking this, but do I have to be careful if implementing someones BEQ settings
that may have been created with a more Flat EQ on the Low end?


My dual Funk 18.0's should be good down to 10Hz, and slightly lower in-room,
But I suspect they might need a voltage bump on my Yamaha AVR's Sub pre-out ( 1.0Vrms)
up to 2.0V that I can do in the miniDSP 2x4HD with a "jumper"?
I wouldn't be concerned at all as long as your system can handle everything you've thrown at it to date, knowing that you've been around these parts for a while and I'm confident you've pushed your system using the known bass monster flicks. As for my BEQs, my goal is always to push the peaks up so that they are relatively flat with no house curve built into them. You could say The Hurricane Heist graph is my reference, and pretty much my goal post-BEQ for each film. I run my subs 8dB hot with a house curve down to 10Hz, so I'm asking a lot of my subs, but even with BEQ I'm not asking them for more than I do when I play the most demanding films out there.


The jumper on the 2x4 HD adjusts the input voltage between 2V and 4V, but doesn't change the output (2V). If you set the jumper to 4V input you are simply attenuating the signal to half of what it came in at, which seems like the opposite of what you're trying to do. Your Yamaha AVR maxes out at 1V output? If so, you could always use the general gain in the MiniDSP to bump your signal, but I'm not sure that's actually something you want to do. I don't suspect voltage to be the cause of your 10Hz dip. I'd try a close mic sweep of each sub to get a better idea of what their output looks like without as much influence from the room.


Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4
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post #59 of 8847 Old 08-12-2018, 09:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I wouldn't be concerned at all as long as your system can handle everything you've thrown at it to date, knowing that you've been around these parts for a while and I'm confident you've pushed your system using the known bass monster flicks. As for my BEQs, my goal is always to push the peaks up so that they are relatively flat with no house curve built into them. You could say The Hurricane Heist graph is my reference, and pretty much my goal post-BEQ for each film. I run my subs 8dB hot with a house curve down to 10Hz, so I'm asking a lot of my subs, but even with BEQ I'm not asking them for more than I do when I play the most demanding films out there.


The jumper on the 2x4 HD adjusts the input voltage between 2V and 4V, but doesn't change the output (2V). If you set the jumper to 4V input you are simply attenuating the signal to half of what it came in at, which seems like the opposite of what you're trying to do. Your Yamaha AVR maxes out at 1V output? If so, you could always use the general gain in the MiniDSP to bump your signal, but I'm not sure that's actually something you want to do. I don't suspect voltage to be the cause of your 10Hz dip. I'd try a close mic sweep of each sub to get a better idea of what their output looks like without as much influence from the room.
Yes, I'm very happy with my results with all the bass monsters flicks so far
and tend to let my ears (and my ass) tell me things don't really need anymore tweaking.

It's funny how a quick graph makes you second guess what your ears are telling you though.
The Funk amplifiers do have their own AllDSP Hardware (and Software) that I've barely touched.

I may shoot Nathan (at Funk Audio) an email next week, from what I've heard,
He's pretty good at reading REW results and making ALLDSP adjustments on-line
to better integrate his subs with my room, my speakers and my other subs.

Thanks'


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post #60 of 8847 Old 08-13-2018, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
In your case it looks like you are only using a single input and a single output. If that is true, then it really doesn't matter if you enter the settings in the input or the output. I use the input myself because I use two outputs and by using the input I only have to enter them in one place.

The rest of your settings look okay to me. If you want to confirm that they are having the effect you are expecting, you can use the USB streaming capability and do sweeps using REW.
Thanks. It's possible the BEQ on GOTG2 just isn't that good. In the other thread they typically make adjustments to all speakers so when I adjust just the LFE I don't get the full effect. I'll mess with it more on Tuesday when I try your BEQ for Infinity war. Any stand out scenes with your BEQ that would be easy to A/B test?
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