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post #6961 of 8218 Old 05-13-2019, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
My apologies to everyone (especially @3ll3d00d ) for continuing to post about my failures, but I think I am inching closer to success.

For the first time I don't get any error messages when clicking on the repo refresh button in the "Merge Minidsp Config" so I figure that's a big win.

Next I entered my .xml file where I have my default house curve settings saved.

However, after doing this I see that I have 0 out of 745 files processed so obviously I'm still missing something. I swear I am doing my best to follow all the steps exactly how they are instructed but I'm sooooo low when it comes to computers that it's still easy for me to screw it up.
Did you press the button to process the files?
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post #6962 of 8218 Old 05-13-2019, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
Did you press the button to process the files?

Yes, but when I do I get this message:


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post #6963 of 8218 Old 05-13-2019, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Yes, but when I do I get this message:


That's correct. It will delete all the the files that were previously processed and then then process everything again.
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post #6964 of 8218 Old 05-13-2019, 06:18 PM
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Hey @PioManiac , Bram Stoker's Dracula links to Braveheart. Also, you have it spelled as Bram Stroker's Dracula. That's the sexier version .
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post #6965 of 8218 Old 05-13-2019, 06:51 PM
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I don't want to beat a dead horse and apologies if this has been covered already, but has anyone actually bothered to measure their MiniDSP 2x4 HD? It rolls off below 10Hz. It's 7dB down by 2Hz. Why again are we stacking numerous small filters instead of using one big one?

For example, I took the filters for Crank, loaded them in my MiniDSP 2x4HD and took these sweeps. Sure, there's a slight difference between using 3x3.4dB filters vs. 1x10.2dB filter, but is it worth worrying over?

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post #6966 of 8218 Old 05-13-2019, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
That's correct. It will delete all the the files that were previously processed and then then process everything again.
Oh my... it works. I'm good to go!

Thanks everyone for the help and the endless patience.
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post #6967 of 8218 Old 05-13-2019, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I don't want to beat a dead horse and apologies if this has been covered already, but has anyone actually bothered to measure their MiniDSP 2x4 HD? It rolls off below 10Hz. It's 7dB down by 2Hz. Why again are we stacking numerous small filters instead of using one big one?

For example, I took the filters for Crank, loaded them in my MiniDSP 2x4HD and took these sweeps. Sure, there's a slight difference between using 3x3.4dB filters vs. 1x10.2dB filter, but is it worth worrying over?
Are you sure it's the MiniDSP rolling off and not something else in your signal chain? I mainly ask because that looks a lot like a typical AVR sub out rolloff. It's been a while since I tested mine, but I don't remember that happening.

Your test is on filters at 26Hz, so it won't show any biquad precision issues. I normally would have used 2 filters of 5.1dB in this case, but I must have been iterating between filters and ended up on a 3 multiple and then reduced gain without realizing I could have gone back to 2 filters on that one. I don't see what the big deal is, though, it's not more than 6 total. In any case, if you test lower frequencies in the teens and down to 10Hz you'll see some biquad precision issues rearing their ugly head. You're free to test them all you want, I saw enough that I decided to stop wasting my time trying to predict exactly when and where they occur and went with an approach that minimizes the issues (and has some other nice effects with steeper slope and less overshoot that makes design a bit easier) so I could instead spend my time BEQing. I get where you're coming from, and you're certainly not the first, but I'm comfortable that my approach has merit and don't plan on changing it, especially now that we have the repo and merge function to automate filter entry.
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post #6968 of 8218 Old 05-13-2019, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Are you sure it's the MiniDSP rolling off and not something else in your signal chain? I mainly ask because that looks a lot like a typical AVR sub out rolloff. It's been a while since I tested mine, but I don't remember that happening.
Yes, I'm absolutely sure it's the MiniDSP rolling off. Here's one with an extra trace of the MiniDSP bypassed.



I'm not sure the 2x4 HD has much of a precision problem. A 48dB LR high pass at 10Hz has like .5dB of overshoot. The older 10x10 HD would have ~10dB of overshoot trying that.
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post #6969 of 8218 Old 05-13-2019, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Yes, I'm absolutely sure it's the MiniDSP rolling off. Here's one with an extra trace of the MiniDSP bypassed.

I'm not sure the 2x4 HD has much of a precision problem. A 48dB LR high pass at 10Hz has like .5dB of overshoot. The older 10x10 HD would have ~10dB of overshoot trying that.
What's your full test setup for these graphs?

The 2x4 HD definitely has precision issues. Small differences in filters can cause large swings in the response. d00d considered modeling the 2x4 HD biquads to dig into it further, but decided it wasn't worth his time. The 2x4 HD is definitely better than the 2x4 and 10x10 HD.

I don't mind discussing this, but what are you looking to gain by reducing the number of filters if you have a 2x4 HD and have 10 filter slots anyway? The older devices that suffer from worse biquad precision issues also have less slots, so reducing filters would have a benefit for them, but then they also suffer the precision issues more, so owners of those devices usually utilize some output filter slots to able to use more than 6 and minimize them.
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post #6970 of 8218 Old 05-13-2019, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
It's very little work actually, as Aron pointed out, the hard part is already done for you.
...and once you have your eyes (and ears) opened to the true potential, you won't want to watch a movie again without BEQ.

Let me dumb it down to caveman level (I figured it out, so surely anyone can)


Buy one of These: https://www.minidsp.com/products/min...minidsp-2x4-hd



Put it Here:



Download the README instructions and 700+ BEQ movie list through the GitHub Repo Here: https://github.com/bmiller/miniDSPBEQ

Click the File Load in the top left corner of the miniDSP HD-1 software, pick any movie off the list of 700+ titles, Hit Connect
The XML files will load the appropriate Low Shelf and Peak filters to the miniDSP input channels in a few seconds.





Watch your movie with Full Bandwidth ULF/LFE. Yes, it's really just that simple.



==================================================

Everything Else on the first page is completely optional.

-measuring your room with REW and a UMIK-1 mic

-adding a wireless bridge (Wi-DG) eliminates the USB cable from your miniDSP to your Laptop https://www.minidsp.com/products/accessories/wi-dg

-adding a House Curve to your miniDSP output channels in XML format and merging it with the movie BEQ repo list with the BEQ'Designer App

-creating your own graphs or remux the audio instead of buying a miniSDP (for computer geeks only) using the BEQ'D App
I have been manually inputting these into my MiniDSP hd’s I recently changed my setup to the following. Onkyo 5509 pre pro sub 1 out to 3 MiniDSP HD’s. The first one controls 4 S2 subs. The second one controls 4 B1200 midbass modules and the 3rd controlls 2 BOSS platforms. Manually loading the files into 3 MiniDSP HD’s is a pain.

I do have a MiniDSP Nano AVR that I can put in before my Pre Pro. Would this work so that I would only have to load into one unit? Would the process you outlined above work with the NanoAVR?

I also have my NanoAVR hooked up to a Mac mini. Do the instructions you have above work on a Mac?

Thanks for all of your hard work!!
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post #6971 of 8218 Old 05-13-2019, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I'm not sure the 2x4 HD has much of a precision problem. A 48dB LR high pass at 10Hz has like .5dB of overshoot. The older 10x10 HD would have ~10dB of overshoot trying that.
Interesting, thanks for posting.

Please keep in mind that there are a couple guys using 10x10HD and a couple more using either 2x4 balanced or the plain ones.
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post #6972 of 8218 Old 05-13-2019, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
I also have my NanoAVR hooked up to a Mac mini. Do the instructions you have above work on a Mac?
Using the save files for the repo work on a Mac too. They're actually all inputted on a mac. Just make sure you grab the mac version of BEQDesigner. Only thing tricky for you is that you'll have to process 3 different house files through BEQd for the different miniDSPs (I'm assuming you don't have the same curve on everything). If I was doing it I'd probably process one, then change the curve file and the save location and run it for the 2nd. Then repeat that for the 3rd. Just make sure you load from the correct saved set each time.

When I start in on BEQBrowser again I'll keep this use case in mind and see what I can do to make it easier.
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post #6973 of 8218 Old 05-13-2019, 08:31 PM
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Hey @aron7awol , I'm doing a BEQ for The Rock. I need your expertise, if you're willing to give it. How much headroom should there be? Is anything okay as long as it's not negative? I'm at 0.06.
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post #6974 of 8218 Old 05-13-2019, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
What's your full test setup for these graphs?
I have a Scarlett 2i2 (1st gen) with the MiniDSP 2x4 HD in the signal path to measure the MiniDSP. I calibrated it first with the MiniDSP out of the loop.

Quote:
I don't mind discussing this, but what are you looking to gain by reducing the number of filters if you have a 2x4 HD and have 10 filter slots anyway? The older devices that suffer from worse biquad precision issues also have less slots, so reducing filters would have a benefit for them, but then they also suffer the precision issues more, so owners of those devices usually utilize some output filter slots to able to use more than 6 and minimize them.
I was trying to determine why it's being done the way it's being done. I'm not necessarily trying to reduce the number of filters, I'm trying to understand why 3 filters overlaid on top of each other are going to have less precision issues than one filter. You're introducing 3 sets of biquad precision losses.

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Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
Interesting, thanks for posting.

Please keep in mind that there are a couple guys using 10x10HD and a couple more using either 2x4 balanced or the plain ones.
I have a Balanced 2x4 also. I've been using it for many years for sub EQ duty. I haven't swept it in a while with REW, so I'm not entirely sure how it's going to compare for BEQ duty. I recall it had very little rolloff even down to 2Hz. I'm new to BEQ and haven't actually used it yet. My system is currently down while I'm doing a bit of a light remodel on the room.
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post #6975 of 8218 Old 05-13-2019, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
Using the save files for the repo work on a Mac too. They're actually all inputted on a mac. Just make sure you grab the mac version of BEQDesigner. Only thing tricky for you is that you'll have to process 3 different house files through BEQd for the different miniDSPs (I'm assuming you don't have the same curve on everything). If I was doing it I'd probably process one, then change the curve file and the save location and run it for the 2nd. Then repeat that for the 3rd. Just make sure you load from the correct saved set each time.

When I start in on BEQBrowser again I'll keep this use case in mind and see what I can do to make it easier.
I have a MiniDSP nanoAVR In front of my pre pro and all of the MiniDSP hd’s Can I load the BEQ files into that? That would save me from having to touch any of the MiniDSP hd’s
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post #6976 of 8218 Old 05-13-2019, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
I have a MiniDSP nanoAVR In front of my pre pro and all of the MiniDSP hd’s Can I load the BEQ files into that? That would save me from having to touch any of the MiniDSP hd’s
I haven't looked at the MiniDSP nanoAVR before so this is going off what they have on their website. It looks like it has no input PEQ and 10 PEQ filters per output. If you're not using them for other EQ purposes then you could put it on them. The specs sound like the PEQ is is similar to the 2x4HD's.

The save files will not work with it though. If you want to send me the plugin for it I can take a look at adding support for it to BEQDesigner. It might be fairly trivial to add. PM me if you do. I have a couple other related questions too.

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post #6977 of 8218 Old 05-13-2019, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
It's very little work actually, as Aron pointed out, the hard part is already done for you.
...and once you have your eyes (and ears) opened to the true potential, you won't want to watch a movie again without BEQ.

Let me dumb it down to caveman level (I figured it out, so surely anyone can)


Buy one of These: https://www.minidsp.com/products/min...minidsp-2x4-hd



Put it Here:



Download the README instructions and 700+ BEQ movie list through the GitHub Repo Here: https://github.com/bmiller/miniDSPBEQ

Click the File Load in the top left corner of the miniDSP HD-1 software, pick any movie off the list of 700+ titles, Hit Connect
The XML files will load the appropriate Low Shelf and Peak filters to the miniDSP input channels in a few seconds.





Watch your movie with Full Bandwidth ULF/LFE. Yes, it's really just that simple.



==================================================

Everything Else on the first page is completely optional.

-measuring your room with REW and a UMIK-1 mic

-adding a wireless bridge (Wi-DG) eliminates the USB cable from your miniDSP to your Laptop https://www.minidsp.com/products/accessories/wi-dg

-adding a House Curve to your miniDSP output channels in XML format and merging it with the movie BEQ repo list with the BEQ'Designer App

-creating your own graphs or remux the audio instead of buying a miniSDP (for computer geeks only) using the BEQ'D App
Another question - for this one let’s assume I am not using the MiniDSP nanoAVR and just use the above scenario on a MiniDSP HD. Does loading one of the save files overwrite any settings I already have in my MiniDSP HD? I have delays set on each output channel and also have a small house curve on the output channels. I have nothing setup on the input channels.

Thanks!
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post #6978 of 8218 Old 05-14-2019, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
Does loading one of the save files overwrite any settings I already have in my MiniDSP HD?
Using https://beqdesigner.readthedocs.io/e...e_minidsp_xml/ means you save your current config to an XML file and the merge this with the published beq filters. You then load the resulting film specific config file, which contains the beq + your stored config, at playback time. The beq filters are written into the inputs when you do this.
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post #6979 of 8218 Old 05-14-2019, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
You're introducing 3 sets of biquad precision losses.

3 times a very very small error is still a very small error

The reason to stack filters is to do with the relationship between S, Q and gain. Take a look at the example in https://beqdesigner.readthedocs.io/e...create-filters and https://beqdesigner.readthedocs.io/e...#the-low-shelf which explains this in more details.

tl;dr for any given S (above 1) then Q increases as gain increases and the higher the Q the greater the overshoot at each end of the shelf. Therefore reducing gain by stacking is one way to control overshoot. Another is to use additional filters to counteract the overshoot and another is to try to leverage the overshoot for the filter design. These aren't mutually exclusive options btw.

Whether any individual beq could use fewer filters or not is probably a question of time (spent reviewing and/or testing) more than anything. I imagine @aron7awol prefers to get through more films to that though.
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post #6980 of 8218 Old 05-14-2019, 04:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
3 times a very very small error is still a very small error

The reason to stack filters is to do with the relationship between S, Q and gain. Take a look at the example in https://beqdesigner.readthedocs.io/e...create-filters and https://beqdesigner.readthedocs.io/e...#the-low-shelf which explains this in more details.

tl;dr for any given S (above 1) then Q increases as gain increases and the higher the Q the greater the overshoot at each end of the shelf. Therefore reducing gain by stacking is one way to control overshoot. Another is to use additional filters to counteract the overshoot and another is to try to leverage the overshoot for the filter design. These aren't mutually exclusive options btw.

Whether any individual beq could use fewer filters or not is probably a question of time (spent reviewing and/or testing) more than anything. I imagine @aron7awol prefers to get through more films to that though.
The S of the filter decreases as you increase the gain for a given Q. A 20Hz LS with a Q of 1 and a gain of 0.1 has a S of 2.0. At a gain of 1.0 the S is 1.9967. At 3.0 it's 1.9710. At 10 it's 1.7459. It's becoming more "stable" as the gain increases. Your GUI by default doesn't hold S constant. It hold's Q constant. (Yes, I know it can be switched). Why would you be trying to hold S constant when the Q determines the overshoot of the filter? Overshoot of filters isn't necessarily a float point vs. fixed point precision issue. It's just how these sorts of filters work. Once the Q is greater than .707 you're going to get some overshoot, even if you were using a Sallen-Key analog filter made of op-amps.
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post #6981 of 8218 Old 05-14-2019, 04:51 AM
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You have just restated what I wrote holding Q constant instead and then bring precision into it which I didn't mention so tbh I don't really know what your point is.

To recap, he wants a filter with a given slope (S) and wants to minimise overshoot (Q) so he stacks multiple filters (reduces gain per filter) to get there. That's all there is to it.
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post #6982 of 8218 Old 05-14-2019, 05:37 AM
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I have been following this thread for a while and finally made the jump and bought a miniDSP HD. I only have 2x SVS PB2000 but I notice a significant difference in the few things I've watched so far. I have a few requests if possible (some of them obscure) so I understand if not possible:

187 (4K Bluray German release DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1)
American Gangster
Departed
Inside Man
Mighty Ducks Trilogy (Disney Collectors Club Bluray, I understand there is probably nothing for content in this one but you never know)


Keep up the great work!
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post #6983 of 8218 Old 05-14-2019, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinemaniac93 View Post
Hey @aron7awol , I'm doing a BEQ for The Rock. I need your expertise, if you're willing to give it. How much headroom should there be? Is anything okay as long as it's not negative? I'm at 0.06.
It will really depend on a given system and how its bass management works, so I can't say for sure on every system, but I have tested 0 headroom and even -1 to -2dB of headroom on my system and have had no issues, possibly because of some combination of being a bit below reference, signal chain rolloff in the low singles, and/or the transient was so short lived it wasn't noticeable.
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post #6984 of 8218 Old 05-14-2019, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
I have a MiniDSP nanoAVR In front of my pre pro and all of the MiniDSP hd’s Can I load the BEQ files into that? That would save me from having to touch any of the MiniDSP hd’s
The nanoAVR can be used but keep in mind you would be doing BEQ before bass management, so you'd need to reduce level enough to keep some headroom when your processor performs bass management. Doing it after bass management is just simpler since you don't have to worry about clipping at any point before the MiniDSP, assuming your signal chain is set up properly, of course.

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post #6985 of 8218 Old 05-14-2019, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
Whether any individual beq could use fewer filters or not is probably a question of time (spent reviewing and/or testing) more than anything. I imagine @aron7awol prefers to get through more films to that though.
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Overshoot of filters isn't necessarily a float point vs. fixed point precision issue. It's just how these sorts of filters work.
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
To recap, he wants a filter with a given slope (S) and wants to minimise overshoot (Q) so he stacks multiple filters (reduces gain per filter) to get there. That's all there is to it.
d00d pretty much hit the nail on the head. It's really about achieving a steeper slope with less overshoot to make the filter design quicker. It can certainly be done multiple ways, but as overshoot from multiple filters or multiple sets of filters interacts, it becomes more difficult to counter, possibly requiring multiple overshoot compensation filters, or at least more time spent dealing with it, which I prefer not to spend. I came to the conclusion that keeping every BEQ to 6 filters or less wasn't going to be possible without compromising on certain mixes. I'm not really willing to compromise a BEQ for the sake of filter count, personally. The vast majority of us either have a 2x4 HD or have a workaround to use 7+ filters if necessary, or they combine filters in extreme cases. So this is not something I worry about and I've chosen to maximize BEQ count since there's really nothing to be gained in my mind by spending any additional time on this sort of thing, and that's a major reason that we're at 730+ BEQs today.

Secondarily, I did some testing with low shelf filters at different frequencies, Q, and gain, and definitely found the 2x4 HD to have what I interpret as biquad precision issues down low. I am not referring to the overshoot native to a filter with Q>.707, but an inconsistency in the filter results, a deviation from the expected response. I spent some time experimenting, but questioned spending a bunch of time trying to figure out exactly which combinations of Freq/Q/Gain would have these precision issues, when there wasn't really much I could do about it anyway. One thing is for sure, they occur much more frequently as we approach 10Hz, and this makes sense, as the biquad coefficients start approaching their limits and precision becomes more important. Increasing Q and gain also moves these coefficients closer to their limits, so I thought minimizing them for other reasons above would have a positive side effect on this issue as well. But as I got deep into this rabbit hole and realizing I was spending way too much time on this sort of thing, when I wanted to use multiple smaller filters for the other reason anyway, I abandoned testing any further and moved forward.

I appreciate you bringing these questions to light and wanting to discuss them, but I don't see a compelling reason to re-visit testing biquad precision or adjust my approach to filter design, personally.
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post #6986 of 8218 Old 05-14-2019, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
It will really depend on a given system and how its bass management works, so I can't say for sure on every system, but I have tested 0 headroom and even -1 to -2dB of headroom on my system and have had no issues, possibly because of some combination of being a bit below reference, signal chain rolloff in the low singles, and/or the transient was so short lived it wasn't noticeable.
Thank you!
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post #6987 of 8218 Old 05-14-2019, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
The nanoAVR can be used but keep in mind you would be doing BEQ before bass management, so you'd need to reduce level enough to keep some headroom when your processor performs bass management. Doing it after bass management is just simpler since you don't have to worry about clipping at any point before the MiniDSP, assuming your signal chain is set up properly, of course.
What would the difference be in feeding your AVR a BED'd signal via the NanoAVR vs feeding it something like HTTYD? Except having a decoded vs an encoded signal of course.

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post #6988 of 8218 Old 05-14-2019, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by peniku8 View Post
What would the difference be in feeding your AVR a BED'd signal via the NanoAVR vs feeding it something like HTTYD? Except having a decoded vs an encoded signal of course.
The stock mix of HTTYD doesn't have clipping in any individual channels. Many BEQs applied pre-BM will have major clipping in multiple channels if overall level is not reduced significantly. This is exactly the same reason that I have to reduce level in the demo clips and why everyone doing remux BEQs has to do the same.
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post #6989 of 8218 Old 05-14-2019, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
The stock mix of HTTYD doesn't have clipping in any individual channels. Many BEQs applied pre-BM will have major clipping in multiple channels if overall level is not reduced significantly. This is exactly the same reason that I have to reduce level in the demo clips and why everyone doing remux BEQs has to do the same.

Is that because the channels were mixed with so little headroom that the additional LFE content would push it too far?

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post #6990 of 8218 Old 05-14-2019, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by peniku8 View Post
Is that because the channels were mixed with so little headroom that the additional LFE content would push it too far?
Yes, most stock mixes have little to no headroom in L,C,R,LFE.
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