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post #8161 of 11136 Old 07-19-2019, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
I understand completely. It always stinks when something goes wrong, or interferes with a smooth demo or movie, especially when we are trying to show off all the hard work.
Yeah....life has a way to mess up plans most of the time I just edited my post above and added, "manicured BEQ experience for our theater". That's another benefit of BEQ'ing ahead of time and remuxing to our server. The BEQ has been dialed in specifically for our theater and it's capabilities to make the experience not only seemless but optimized to the room and equipment.
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post #8162 of 11136 Old 07-19-2019, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Nima View Post
No that's not what I am asking. I have all my current sub EQ on my INPUT 1 and I am asking what I should do to move it to Outputs 1 to 3. Afaik it is very difficult to get the same Global EQ with 3 outputs unless I am using something like MSO.
If you want to start using BEQ you'd really benefit to reconfiguring your miniDSP to the recommendation of having the sub EQs on out the outputs and not the inputs. It's a little pain to start out but it'll save you much more in the long run by being able to use everything that we're providing you.

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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
+1. It surprises me that MiniDSP hasn't created an API even for the most simple functions. Even if they just allowed loading of a configuration from a file, that would satisfy most of us. Or if they didn't want to expose an API but just made their mobile app able to load configs from a file, that would be a decent compromise that would make a lot of people happy.
If we could get an api I'd have have an iOS app out right away and add support for it to the browser. It would be amazing if they let us push config files to it. I'd also love it if we could remux Atmos and DTS:X since I already rip everything to my home server for convenience. Although I wouldn't look forward to processing 400+ movies if we could.

BTW, you guys using Dots are crazy to let Amazon have an open mic in your house. I'm going to sound like I should be wearing a tin foil hat but just wait. I know I'm going to be hearing "we should have listened to you" from people before long like they did with Facebook.
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post #8163 of 11136 Old 07-19-2019, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
If you want to start using BEQ you'd really benefit to reconfiguring your miniDSP to the recommendation of having the sub EQs on out the outputs and not the inputs. It's a little pain to start out but it'll save you much more in the long run by being able to use everything that we're providing you.



If we could get an api I'd have have an iOS app out right away and add support for it to the browser. It would be amazing if they let us push config files to it. I'd also love it if we could remux Atmos and DTS:X since I already rip everything to my home server for convenience. Although I wouldn't look forward to processing 400+ movies if we could.

BTW, you guys using Dots are crazy to let Amazon have an open mic in your house. I'm going to sound like I should be wearing a tin foil hat but just wait. I know I'm going to be hearing "we should have listened to you" from people before long like they did with Facebook.
Hey Desert Dog.....Thanks for all your contributions to the BEQ process with the repo. That was one big step towards seemlessness.

For remuxing, I too wish there was a way to retain the meta data height information. Having said that, I've found I prefer Auromatic upmixing over discrete Atmos mixes. Maybe it's my speaker locations but wanted to mention that if you have Auro3D capability and want to give it a try with 5.1 or 7.1 material. It does a great job with music also.

Regarding open mics in the house.....tin foil hat or no tin foil hat....I'm with you man
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post #8164 of 11136 Old 07-19-2019, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by trhought View Post
Hey Desert Dog.....Thanks for all your contributions to the BEQ process with the repo. That was one big step towards seemlessness.

For remuxing, I too wish there was a way to retain the meta data height information. Having said that, I've found I prefer Auromatic upmixing over discrete Atmos mixes. Maybe it's my speaker locations but wanted to mention that if you have Auro3D capability and want to give it a try with 5.1 or 7.1 material. It does a great job with music also.

Regarding open mics in the house.....tin foil hat or no tin foil hat....I'm with you man
My 8500 does Auro3D upmixing but I haven't tried it since I don't have my height speakers positioned for it. When I added them I put them at the proper spots and angles for Atmos since that's what most titles are. I thought of adding the CH and VOG for Auro3D use but I've held off on it due to lack of content.

I'll give the up mixer a shot later to see how it sounds. I've A/B tested the Dolby and DTS upmixers with native content and there was a noticeable difference, at least with the title that have good height mixes. It might be more forgiving and sound good for title that they slapped Atmos onto and didn't do a proper mix.
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post #8165 of 11136 Old 07-19-2019, 01:33 PM
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@DesertDog and @trhought , the only thing our Echo hears, if anything at all, is my son snoring (it's on his nightstand in his bedroom, in a remote location in our home; his TV, video games, etc. are 2 levels down from there, where he typically falls asleep anyway ) . I usually unplug it if I go in there to wake him up for school or whatever

Anyway, back to the topic of controlling the MiniDSP with it, I wasn't able to make it happen from the FireTV voice remote, the Echo, or the Alexa app on my phone; oh well, MiniDSP app it is, then
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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post #8166 of 11136 Old 07-19-2019, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
BTW, you guys using Dots are crazy to let Amazon have an open mic in your house. I'm going to sound like I should be wearing a tin foil hat but just wait. I know I'm going to be hearing "we should have listened to you" from people before long like they did with Facebook.

Why listen to others when you already have so many people listening to you
I don't remember if it was Amazon or Google but some gave their workers access to users' mics in order to 'optimize voice regognition software'.
Well, Elon Musk is working on thought control (controlling devices via neural activity) and has successfully tested it on (with?) an ape, so voice control will get old quickly..

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post #8167 of 11136 Old 07-19-2019, 03:21 PM
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$22 to ship the WI-DG? Really?!?

I should just get a really long USB cable.
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post #8168 of 11136 Old 07-19-2019, 03:26 PM
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I posted in the MiniDSP suggestion box for them to add the ability to load configurations from the mobile app and/or with a command line utility (e.g. "loadconfig TheIncredibleHulk.xml") which we could script with many media players to automatically load a config when playing a movie. I'm not sure it will go anywhere but I figured it's worth a shot.

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post #8169 of 11136 Old 07-19-2019, 04:33 PM
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@3ll3d00d is it possible for you to add some sort of RMS average signal level indicator to BEQ Designer so that we can see how much the overall subwoofer volume is being increased by the EQ'ing? Like a before and after average level for the track. I think it would need the appropriate 120Hz 4th order LPF used ahead of the calculation so that the impact on the level of the EQ isn't drown out off by the level of content that will be rolled off by the 120Hz LPF in the receiver.

Also, when you "mix to mono" in the extraction section it doesn't look like there's any sort of low pass filter being applied to any of the non-sub channels. Shouldn't a 2nd order 80Hz LPF be used?

Last edited by Stereodude; 07-19-2019 at 04:52 PM. Reason: fix mistake
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post #8170 of 11136 Old 07-19-2019, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
@3ll3d00d is it possible for you to add some sort of RMS average signal level indicator to BEQ Designer so that we can see how much the overall LFE volume is being increased by the EQ'ing? Like a before and after average level for the track. I think it would need the appropriate 120Hz 4th order LPF used ahead of the calculation so that the impact on the level of the EQ isn't drown out off by the level of content that will be rolled off by the 120Hz LPF in the receiver.

Also, when you "mix to mono" in the extraction section it doesn't look like there's any sort of low pass filter being applied to any of the non-sub channels. Shouldn't a 2nd order 80Hz LPF be used?
Do you mean the sub out, not LFE channel? Headroom before and after is already shown, is that not what you're looking for? Those LPF should make very little difference on headroom, it's the ULF that usually contributes the vast majority of the power. In any case, the lack of a LPF on mix-to-mono is intentional and makes sense to me. We don't know where someone will cross over or if they will at all, and I like to see the full-range audio when shaping the mix.

Edit to add: Have you seen the bass management functionality in BEQD? Maybe that will give you what you're looking for?

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post #8171 of 11136 Old 07-19-2019, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
@3ll3d00d is it possible for you to add some sort of RMS average signal level indicator to BEQ Designer so that we can see how much the overall LFE volume is being increased by the EQ'ing? Like a before and after average level for the track. I think it would need the appropriate 120Hz 4th order LPF used ahead of the calculation so that the impact on the level of the EQ isn't drown out off by the level of content that will be rolled off by the 120Hz LPF in the receiver.
LUFS is the standard for perceptual loudness, not sure how it would respond to a low passed track though. Do you mean a single value for the entire track? I'm not sure why they would be useful?

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Also, when you "mix to mono" in the extraction section it doesn't look like there's any sort of low pass filter being applied to any of the non-sub channels. Shouldn't a 2nd order 80Hz LPF be used?
If you want to simulate the effect of bass management then use https://beqdesigner.readthedocs.io/e...ss_management/

people use different filters so general purpose BEQ design is best done without any LPF though those options could certainly be added to the extract audio feature
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post #8172 of 11136 Old 07-19-2019, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Do you mean the sub out, not LFE channel?
Yes, good catch. I went back and edited my post.

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Headroom before and after is already shown, is that not what you're looking for? Those LPF should make very little difference on headroom, it's the ULF that usually contributes the vast majority of the power. In any case, the lack of a LPF on mix-to-mono is intentional and makes sense to me. We don't know where someone will cross over or if they will at all, and I like to see the full-range audio when shaping the mix.
For what I'm asking I'm not interested in how much the peak level went up. Of course I don't want clipping and Headroom measurement is useful there, but I want a measure of how much the average signal level increases. I've been playing around with BEQ Designer on some concert blu-rays today and while I can add more low frequency energy into the mix down low I'm also making the sub more dominant in the mix as a result and shifting the weight of the bass, kickdrum, etc. in the overall mix. I'd like to easily see by how much. My opinion so far from my listening / evaluation is that the subwoofer level should be decreased some to compensate. Maybe not 1:1, but by some ratio. Otherwise it kind of sounds like I'm just a basshead who's running my sub hot.

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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
LUFS is the standard for perceptual loudness, not sure how it would respond to a low passed track though. Do you mean a single value for the entire track? I'm not sure why they would be useful?
Yes, I mean a single value for the entire track. I think my reply above adequately explains why I want it.
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post #8173 of 11136 Old 07-19-2019, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I've been playing around with BEQ Designer on some concert blu-rays today and while I can add more low frequency energy into the mix down low I'm also making the sub more dominant in the mix as a result and shifting the weight of the bass, kickdrum, etc. in the overall mix. I'd like to easily see by how much. My opinion so far from my listening / evaluation is that the subwoofer level should be decreased some to compensate. Maybe not 1:1, but by some ratio. Otherwise it kind of sounds like I'm just a basshead who's running my sub hot.
I do find that when BEQing concerts/music I tend to prefer more of a flat slope with the ULF rather than rising. Are you EQing to pretty flat and still wanting to lower the level? That would surprise me. For movies I definitely prefer the rising slope to get the big time single-digit and transient impact, but I also think that those of us with TR devices need/want that more than those with subs only. Not that the subs only crowd can't appreciate a rising slope for movies
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post #8174 of 11136 Old 07-19-2019, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I do find that when BEQing concerts/music I tend to prefer more of a flat slope with the ULF rather than rising. Are you EQing to pretty flat and still wanting to lower the level? That would surprise me. For movies I definitely prefer the rising slope to get the big time single-digit and transient impact, but I also think that those of us with TR devices need/want that more than those with subs only. Not that the subs only crowd can't appreciate a rising slope for movies
Yes, I'm EQ'ing flat.

For example:


I took the mono wav created in the extract function into Audacity, applied a 120Hz 4th order LPF to it and measured the RMS value of the track. It's -29.2dB. I applied the filters to the wave file using the remux function, pulled that into Audacity, applied the same LPF, and measured the RMS value of the track. Now it's -26.7dB. That means the filters added ~2.5dB to the sub channel. Now I'm off to see what it sounds like with the sub turned down 2.5dB (or less).
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post #8175 of 11136 Old 07-19-2019, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Yes, I'm EQ'ing flat.

I took the mono wav created in the extract function into Audacity, applied a 120Hz 4th order LPF to it and measured the RMS value of the track. It's -29.2dB. I applied the filters to the wave file using the remux function, pulled that into Audacity, applied the same LPF, and measured the RMS value of the track. Now it's -26.7dB. That means the filters added ~2.5dB to the sub channel. Now I'm off to see what it sounds like with the sub turned down 2.5dB (or less).
Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I do find that when BEQing concerts/music I tend to prefer more of a flat slope with the ULF rather than rising. Are you EQing to pretty flat and still wanting to lower the level? That would surprise me. For movies I definitely prefer the rising slope to get the big time single-digit and transient impact, but I also think that those of us with TR devices need/want that more than those with subs only. Not that the subs only crowd can't appreciate a rising slope for movies

^^^^ This. For remuxing BEQ music, I've found what Aron says to be very true. Keep the BEQ sub out curve flat from 30-40Hz and not rising as the frequency decreases.

Also with music, I've found it largely depends on the original recording. Unfortunately, most music mixes aren't as clean as movie soundtracks and there's no industry standards for reference level when recording music like there is for movies. Some music mixes have so much noise, a HPF has to be applied on the low end to keep that single digit frequency noise to a minimum. The only 5.1 music I've found so far that's similar to movie soundtracks and can take a rising BEQ curve are any mixes by Steven Wilson. His mixes respond to BEQ just the same as movies....a rising boost doesn't make the track sound bass heavy and call attention to the subwoofer like most other music mixes and they are very clean with low noise and don't require an HPF for content lower than 10Hz. Any of his mixes sound incredible and natural with a rising BEQ curve....those kick drums and bass runs sound so much better with BEQ and his mixes usually have some synthesized sounds to create atmosphere similar to how they are used in movies....those effects come alive similarly with BEQ.

When remuxing music or movies, I don't mix to mono. This way I can see each channel signal plus the subwoofer out signal which is configured within BEQd to represent the BM settings in my AVR. I then use the signal analysis tools in BEQd (time domain and frequency domain next to one another on the bottom of BEQd) and look at each of those domains for each channel separately to see what my filters are doing. Lastly, I look at the sub out signal to make sure it's shape is what I've found to work best with our theater room and equipment depending on whether I'm mixing movies or music.
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How are the overall EQ curves for different movies determined? Is this something that @aron7awol or @PioManiac figure out totally on their own, or is there help from the movie studios? Sorry if this was already explained somewhere else in this long thread, but I didn't see any explanation in the first 20 pages, and wasn't sure how to search for the answer.

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Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
How are the overall EQ curves for different movies determined? Is this something that @aron7awol or @PioManiac figure out totally on their own, or is there help from the movie studios? Sorry if this was already explained somewhere else in this long thread, but I didn't see any explanation in the first 20 pages, and wasn't sure how to search for the answer.
BEQ Designer generates the curves you see posted in the thread. The audio is extracted from the Blu-ray/UHD Blu-ray.
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post #8178 of 11136 Old 07-19-2019, 06:12 PM
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BEQ Designer generates the curves you see posted in the thread. The audio is extracted from the Blu-ray/UHD Blu-ray.
So what is the BEQ Designer algorithm based on?

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post #8179 of 11136 Old 07-19-2019, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by trhought View Post
When remuxing music or movies, I don't mix to mono. This way I can see each channel signal plus the subwoofer out signal which is configured within BEQd to represent the BM settings in my AVR. I then use the signal analysis tools in BEQd (time domain and frequency domain next to one another on the bottom of BEQd) and look at each of those domains for each channel separately to see what my filters are doing. Lastly, I look at the sub out signal to make sure it's shape is what I've found to work best with our theater room and equipment depending on whether I'm mixing movies or music.
So how are you determining if your settings are going to clip in your receiver/processor because you've run out of headroom?
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post #8180 of 11136 Old 07-19-2019, 06:15 PM
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So what is the BEQ Designer algorithm based on?
What do you mean? A human decided what filters to add (aron7awol). BEQ Designer shows before and after effects on the spectrum.

Are you asking how the spectrum is generated? That's by a FFT of the audio signal I'd imagine.
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post #8181 of 11136 Old 07-19-2019, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Yes, I'm EQ'ing flat.

I took the mono wav created in the extract function into Audacity, applied a 120Hz 4th order LPF to it and measured the RMS value of the track. It's -29.2dB. I applied the filters to the wave file using the remux function, pulled that into Audacity, applied the same LPF, and measured the RMS value of the track. Now it's -26.7dB. That means the filters added ~2.5dB to the sub channel. Now I'm off to see what it sounds like with the sub turned down 2.5dB (or less).
Stereodude....if you remux music, you can look at the sub-out channel by itself in BEQd then add an appropriate negative gain filter to account for any gain BEQ has made to the sub out channel. This way, you won't need to remember to turn down your subwoofer for the music mix, then remember again to turn it back up after you're done with the music. That's what I've found to be the best way to manage differences between music and movies....basically, they are all remuxed to present a similar "normalized" signal to my AVR, then from there the AVR treats all signals the same and manages those signals how I've set them to behave coming out of the AVR. It doesn't matter if a movie or music is being played....the BEQ experience is similar and very user-friendly this way.

Basically, I just do all the signal mixing on the front end signals using BEQd, rather doing it on the back end and having to remember to turn the sub gains up and down.
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post #8182 of 11136 Old 07-19-2019, 06:18 PM
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So how are you determining if your settings are going to clip in your receiver/processor because you've run out of headroom?
If you don't mix-to-mono on extraction BEQD will still show headroom of the bass-managed track, and using its bass management settings you can apply LPF like you mentioned you wanted to do.
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post #8183 of 11136 Old 07-19-2019, 06:45 PM
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BassEQ Percy Jackson: Sea of Monsters (2013) DTS-HD MA 7.1



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post #8184 of 11136 Old 07-19-2019, 07:07 PM
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BassEQ Push (2009) Atmos


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Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
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post #8185 of 11136 Old 07-19-2019, 07:24 PM
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BassEQ Percy Jackson & the Olympians: The Lightning Thief (2010) DTS-HD MA 5.1


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post #8186 of 11136 Old 07-19-2019, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
So how are you determining if your settings are going to clip in your receiver/processor because you've run out of headroom?
BEQd shows the headroom available for each channel when extracting the signals and selecting no "mix to mono". Then for each channel you can see how your filters are affecting the overall time domain amplitude and the frequency domain response after BEQd applies FFT to the time domain signal. You can see the time domain and frequency domain plots next to each other on the bottom of each of the below screen shots.

These are some screenshots I did back in February for Nirvana's "On a Plain" from the 5.1 re-mix of Nirvana's Nevermind album.

For the example pics below, I've selected the sub-out signal that represents my AVR BM signal that was configured in BEQd options with the same settings I use in my AVR. This is the BM signal that my AVR will provide to my subs and my BOSS platforms when playing this song....just select the "s 1" signal from the drop-down menu right above the green circle.

This first picture shows the sub out signal for that song unfiltered with no BEQ with 16.65 dB of headroom. Note the green circle which is showing headroom and the filtered box is "unchecked".



This second picture is showing the filters that were added on the right hand side and how those filters effected the headroom in the green circle when the filter box is checked. Note the headroom is now -4.16 dB of clipping.



This last picture shows the addition of a negative gain of 4.2 dB that was added as one of the filters on the right hand side and how there is now headroom of .04 dB when the filter box is checked.



This is now the correct set of BEQ filters than can be used to re-mux this song onto our Plex Server and it will play back in our theater with glorious BEQ and sound very natural with restored kick drums and bass guitar with no clipping......all without having to change the AVR MV setting or sub gain settings on any of my subs or BOSS platforms.

Also note, since this isn't a Steve Wilson mix I had to add a 9th order BW HPF at 11Hz to keep the single digit noise from this recording from being reproduced by my BOSS platforms. If this was a Steve Wilson mix, no HPF would be needed since his recordings are clean just like movie mixes.

Sorry for the hi-jack @PioManiac ......I keep thinking about starting a BEQ music thread but couldn't hold a candle to the sheer excellence on display in this thread...plus there just isn't that much 5.1 music out there unfortunately. And, BEQ music can get deep into the bowels of BEQd very fast.

Stereodude.....instructions for how to access all these BEQd features I mention above can be found in the most-excellent users guide that @3ll3d00d has put together.
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BassEQ Salt (2010) Atmos



Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
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Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Fusion-8 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4
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BassEQ Snitch (2013) Atmos


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Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Fusion-8 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4
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BassEQ Sully (2016) Atmos



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Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Fusion-8 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4
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BassEQ The Shape of Water (2017) DTS-HD MA 5.1



Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Fusion-8 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4
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