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post #14011 of 14600 Old 05-31-2020, 10:54 AM
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Hi Aron,

Amongst your busy schedule if you could find time to do Supernatural season 14 on Amazon I'd really appreciate it.

Many thanks,

Southy

Last edited by Southy78; 05-31-2020 at 12:25 PM. Reason: Only need season 14
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post #14012 of 14600 Old 05-31-2020, 12:28 PM
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Invisible Man with BEQ is no joke! Whoever needs that extra push to check it out definitely should. Get walloped!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conrad Nash View Post
I explain it to people differently. It has nothing to do with changing the response of your system; BEQ is about restoring the content back to where it should be/was. That's why it goes on the input side of the minidsp, you're affecting what's sent in to the subs. The in room EQ that you apply to get your system to play back frequencies at the appropriate volume is about output and is specific to your equipment in your room.

So your system will only be able to play back the signal it's given. If its not given anything <20Hz then it won't have anything to play back. BEQ is about restoring that content.

Where I hear most people go wrong is that, pre-BEQ, they have a really aggressive house curve (big boost down low) because they're used to watching movies with no low content. When you add in BEQ and restore that content, the boost is too much. Think of an aggressive house curve like a generic BEQ filter. The key there is to EQ closer to flat and use BEQ.

In short, you should add the BEQ filters to the inputs of all bass reproducing devices in your room - subs, TR devices, BOSSs, etc. so that they all get the correct signal.
The output EQ that you've applied to them might need to be tweaked now that you're listening to restored content, but they're independent of each other.
Nice explanation! In my opinion you shouldn't run an aggressive house curve with BEQ. My take now is to EQ the room flat with a small increase in the lower frequencies to compensate for how our ears work. BEQ then takes care of the heavy lifting and is tailored to the track. Everything feels more balanced now and doesn't get boomy.

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post #14014 of 14600 Old 05-31-2020, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
Nice explanation! In my opinion you shouldn't run an aggressive house curve with BEQ. My take now is to EQ the room flat with a small increase in the lower frequencies to compensate for how our ears work. BEQ then takes care of the heavy lifting and is tailored to the track. Everything feels more balanced now and doesn't get boomy.
Completely agree. In fact, I have two EQ profiles saved for my minidsp. One that I use for "normal" viewing when there's no BEQ which has a pretty steep slope and runs hot, and then a flatter one that I merge with the BEQ repos to create my own personal collection.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
BassEQ American Sniper (2014) Atmos
This one looks odd, but I'm hoping those are beneficial transients unlocked.

Just wanted to let you know, Impressive effects with BEQ!!. One of the crazy starting credits, I was wondering what was coming up on screen until I saw the tank roll up. Also at 1:02:50 sec mark, wow my screen shook up, I thought something was crazy with my eyes!!!. Overall enjoyed the transients, just perfect for me.
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post #14016 of 14600 Old 05-31-2020, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avtvhdbass View Post
Just wanted to let you know, Impressive effects with BEQ!!. One of the crazy starting credits, I was wondering what was coming up on screen until I saw the tank roll up. Also at 1:02:50 sec mark, wow my screen shook up, I thought something was crazy with my eyes!!!. Overall enjoyed the transients, just perfect for me.
i just watched this movie before the new update and the opening tanks were already really nice. I will have to rewatch and see how it's changed. The warble right at the beginning was very nice!
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post #14017 of 14600 Old 05-31-2020, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
BassEQ Robin Hood (2018) Atmos




This one was really tough! Those super hot hits in the high teens had to be dealt with in order to be able to boost the rest of the mix. I tried to strike a balance between bringing them down to fit the rest while not making that area too low throughout.

Those looking to reduce the number of filters can replace the 4 PEQs of 16-19Hz (the result won't be quite as good) with:
PEQ 16Hz Q8.0 -10.5dB
PEQ 19Hz Q8.0 -11.5dB
Pardon my ignorance as your process I've kept my head in the sand and regard as a black box. I didn't like the sound of this one so fiddle around and its those 4 PEQs. For me I toggled around trying just one PEQ and came up with 17 , -12.1 db, and 5.5. I don't know if this fully protects quite the same, but I like the sound of it. It kind of removes a thickening that is there without the 4 PEQs so ehances their sound, so to my ears quite the reverse of the result with the 4 PEQs together. Perhaps my woofers will get hammered at some point as this doesn't match up exactly.

Another passing thought for this movie is to maybe only apply the PEQ to boss and tactiles (which I don't have and leave the rest unaffected.) Kind of new to the thread, but it was a passing thought.

I also wonder if my minidsp HD having some PEQ at these frequencies (PB4000 now) makes it more susceptible to those aggressive PEQs? I've really quite liked all the other BEQ movies and shows I've tried so far.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conrad Nash View Post
I explain it to people differently. It has nothing to do with changing the response of your system; BEQ is about restoring the content back to where it should be/was. That's why it goes on the input side of the minidsp, you're affecting what's sent in to the subs. The in room EQ that you apply to get your system to play back frequencies at the appropriate volume is about output and is specific to your equipment in your room.

So your system will only be able to play back the signal it's given. If its not given anything <20Hz then it won't have anything to play back. BEQ is about restoring that content.

Where I hear most people go wrong is that, pre-BEQ, they have a really aggressive house curve (big boost down low) because they're used to watching movies with no low content. When you add in BEQ and restore that content, the boost is too much. Think of an aggressive house curve like a generic BEQ filter. The key there is to EQ closer to flat and use BEQ.

In short, you should add the BEQ filters to the inputs of all bass reproducing devices in your room - subs, TR devices, BOSSs, etc. so that they all get the correct signal.
The output EQ that you've applied to them might need to be tweaked now that you're listening to restored content, but they're independent of each other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
Nice explanation! In my opinion you shouldn't run an aggressive house curve with BEQ. My take now is to EQ the room flat with a small increase in the lower frequencies to compensate for how our ears work. BEQ then takes care of the heavy lifting and is tailored to the track. Everything feels more balanced now and doesn't get boomy.
I may be in the scenario of having too much boost, but am still evaluating. We watched The Invisible Man last night, and I had to turn it down, mainly because my daughter was complaining, but the bass may have been sligthly hot on that particular title in my current configuration. Basically, as noted below, JW3 sounds phenomenal, and I want all movies to sound that good, but maybe that is not possible. I know you guys will probably tell me to dial it back, but when I use an MSO calibration at a lower level than noted below for BEQ tites, JW3 does not have the same impact. Here is the background on my system:

Subwoofer Information
Subwoofer 1: 2x 4000ULF-ST behind the screen wall.
Subwoofer 2: 2x SubMersive HP on the side walls.
Subwoofer 3: SubMersive HP+ Master & Slave on the rear wall.


miniDSP Setup Information
I am using two subwoofer EQ presets; one for non-BEQ titles, and one with BEQ titles. I use the fantastic Multi-Sub Optimizer (MSO) software to generate the biquad PEQ filters for my three sub channels (2 paired subs per channel, so 6 subs total) on the miniDSP 2x4 HD outputs. The fourth output goes to my BOSS platform.

Pre-EQ Combined sub response
I discovered that inverting the side wall subs (slightly behind me) resulted in much better combined response, before EQ. I have to thank Steven Smith's video on REW multi-sub EQ (Link at the end of this post) for that inversion test tip. Below is the result of my sub inversion test; I tested inverting all three, even though #2 and #3 are the only subs behind me.




Multi-Sub Optimizer
I just recently ran various MSO optimization options again, due to sub inversion testing noted above. This required taking the measurements MSO requires again and running optimizations. Since the measurements are taken one time and used for multiple optimization scenarios, it is easy to test multiple options with MSO.

Note that I am using a target curve that is included in the MSO filters. They provide an example Harman target curve (from the Welti paper, I presume) that I just loaded into the MSO optimization options section. Several months ago I attempted playing around with the default curve and the best results were when I left it at default.

Here is the current post-MSO response I am using for BEQ titles, which merges with the REPO. This is 17.23 dB over reference, based on my calculated REW sweep level.





Here is the current post-MSO response I am using for non-BEQ titles, which merges with the REPO. This is 19.90 dB over reference, based on my calculated REW sweep level.





The Listening Test Process
After I load the gain, delay, and PEQ filters for each optimization, I test the various option these days using three titles:

The Conjuring 2 (16 Hz hit at 0:14:53) This is problematic in my system, and the level of concern varies dependent upon my overall subwoofer system boost above reference.

John Wick 3 (lobby shootout, chapter 13) This movie does not really have any issues of concern in my system, and only gets better when pushed harder. Perhaps this is an anomaly with a phenomenal soundtrack and a phenomenal BEQ?

Fury (tiger battle starting at 1:18:30) This scene is very hot for both the sounds inside the tanks when they are hit and when they hit the Tiger. Again, the level of concern varies dependent upon my overall subwoofer system boost above reference.

I welcome any input that is not simply "Turn it down".

Mark

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I would suggest a more aggressive slope, but a lower level.
If you're running your subs 20dB hot that's, dare I say it, too hot. Blasphemy!

Clearly you listen loud, so you don't need that steep of a slope, but using a loudness curve (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour) you might want to aiming for a 12dB rise from 60Hz to 15Hz (that's 6dB/Octave).

If that's a crossed over response at 80Hz then 80 is actually at -6 with a second order crossover, so your base level is actually close to 100dB. In your first slope you have an increase of 2 or 3dB and in the second you're basically flat.

This means that to get a good amount of SPL down at 40Hz, you need to increase the volume, but that's increasing the level at 80Hz as well (and everywhere else) meaning that it's too loud. What you want is a steeper rise so that the relative volumes are higher as you go lower.

Loudness curves get shallower as you approach reference, but 6dB an Octave is a pretty good benchmark for most people.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post
miniDSP Setup Information
I am using two subwoofer EQ presets; one for non-BEQ titles, and one with BEQ titles. I use the fantastic Multi-Sub Optimizer (MSO) software to generate the biquad PEQ filters for my three sub channels (2 paired subs per channel, so 6 subs total) on the miniDSP 2x4 HD outputs. I just recently ran various MSO optimization options again, due to sub inversion testing noted above. This required taking the measurements MSO requires again and running optimizations. Since the measurements are taken one time and used for multiple optimization scenarios, it is easy to test multiple options with MSO.
All I know is I would pay you to come tweak my dual SVS Ultras and MiniDSP setup in my problematic 1900 ft3 room. Assuming it sounds as well as those measurements look I’d give certain body organs to get close to what you appear to have achieved - well done.
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All I know is I would pay you to come tweak my dual SVS Ultras and MiniDSP setup in my problematic 1900 ft3 room. Assuming it sounds as well as those measurements look I’d give certain body organs to get close to what you appear to have achieved - well done.
Do you have REW and a measurement mic?
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post #14022 of 14600 Old 06-01-2020, 10:24 AM
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Do you have REW and a measurement mic?
Yes but very few skills - had to have my son come help me use REW to find and “correct” my nulls with the MiniDSP. Now he is all the way across country and I am on my own. I struggle with REW and despite a year of finding best placement by ear, bass traps, and REW/MiniDSP filters I’m still not satisfied. Flat to 14 hz (most extension I’m going to get) but lots nulls and peaks that drive me crazy.
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If you'd like to PM me I'd be happy to help you work through any issues you've got and get a nice flat response.
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post #14024 of 14600 Old 06-01-2020, 10:37 AM
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If you'd like to PM me I'd be happy to help you work through any issues you've got and get a nice flat response.
Thanks for the offer, might let you take a look at what I’ve done and offer any suggestions! Work is in the way for now but might take you up on it. Much appreciated.
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I welcome any input that is not simply "Turn it down".
Turn it down.

Your bass was measured at roughly 110 dB for 40 and below. When you have your AVR at that same volume what does your 100-20k look like? I'm wondering what you bass levels are like compared to everything else.
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post #14026 of 14600 Old 06-01-2020, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conrad Nash View Post
I would suggest a more aggressive slope, but a lower level.
If you're running your subs 20dB hot that's, dare I say it, too hot. Blasphemy!

Clearly you listen loud, so you don't need that steep of a slope, but using a loudness curve (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour) you might want to aiming for a 12dB rise from 60Hz to 15Hz (that's 6dB/Octave).

If that's a crossed over response at 80Hz then 80 is actually at -6 with a second order crossover, so your base level is actually close to 100dB. In your first slope you have an increase of 2 or 3dB and in the second you're basically flat.

This means that to get a good amount of SPL down at 40Hz, you need to increase the volume, but that's increasing the level at 80Hz as well (and everywhere else) meaning that it's too loud. What you want is a steeper rise so that the relative volumes are higher as you go lower.

Loudness curves get shallower as you approach reference, but 6dB an Octave is a pretty good benchmark for most people.
Thanks for taking a look. I think you are correct, and I need to look at the target curve again, especially because inverting sub 2 had such a dramatic effect on the pre-EQ response.

Mark

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What kind of smoothing has been applied to that measurement? Or is that a calculation based on individual measurements?
This graph makes my eyes and my mouth water.
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What kind of smoothing has been applied to that measurement? Or is that a calculation based on individual measurements?
This graph makes my eyes and my mouth water.
No smoothing , as is the recommended practice for low-frequency sweeps in Jerry's REW 101 Guide.

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Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
Turn it down.

Your bass was measured at roughly 110 dB for 40 and below. When you have your AVR at that same volume what does your 100-20k look like? I'm wondering what you bass levels are like compared to everything else.
I did not take L+R+Subs measurements for all the various MSO options I ran, but here is the one for the MSO 90 dB Ref. Level.

Mark

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I did not take L+R+Subs measurements for all the various MSO options I ran, but here is the one for the MSO 90 dB Ref. Level.

Mark

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Subwoofer Information
Subwoofer 1: 2x 4000ULF-ST behind the screen wall.
Subwoofer 2: 2x SubMersive HP on the side walls.
Subwoofer 3: SubMersive HP+ Master & Slave on the rear wall


The nerve of this guy asking for help.

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Aaron, beq request for Turbo(the racing snail movie) pleez when you can
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post
I did not take L+R+Subs measurements for all the various MSO options I ran, but here is the one for the MSO 90 dB Ref. Level.

Mark

Overall that looks good. You start a rise at about 100 hz to 38 hz or so and then flat down with about a 12 dB increase over your highs. It's pretty much the shape you want. You're running a little hotter bass then what I've been setting up but nothing too outrageous. I've been doing mine more at like 6 or 7 dB but that comes down to taste a bit.
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watched Europa Report earlier and I notice it's not on the list

I watched as is and it seemed to make decent use of bass for tension (i.e. not a big heavy film, it's mostly dialogue but had decent heft at the right times) so graphed it afterwards and was right that it had some extension

probably a mild LS (+6 at 20Hz shown here) is enough to bring it up



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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
watched Europa Report earlier and I notice it's not on the list

I watched as is and it seemed to make decent use of bass for tension (i.e. not a big heavy film, it's mostly dialogue but had decent heft at the right times) so graphed it afterwards and was right that it had some extension

probably a mild LS (+6 at 20Hz shown here) is enough to bring it up
It's been in mine for some time. I am a fan of that movie!
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post #14036 of 14600 Old 06-01-2020, 08:38 PM
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BassEQ Turbo (2013) DTS-HD MA 7.1




Running into some noise down low, so I didn't push it any further.

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips TR Curves
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post #14037 of 14600 Old 06-01-2020, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
BassEQ Turbo (2013) DTS-HD MA 7.1









Running into some noise down low, so I didn't push it any further.
Thanx Aaron! My little guy loves this movie so any excuse to play it lol
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post #14038 of 14600 Old 06-01-2020, 09:06 PM
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I don't know if this is the right place to be posting this but while chilling at home, over the weekend. My wife and I decided to watch the fast and furious movies. On reaching Fast and furious 6 I realized something awkward. It was available on Amazon prime so I just applied the bass eq and started watching it. Within first 5 minutes I felt the sound was off. I thought maybe it was just movie fatigue. Watching 5 movies in 30 hours can cause that, I guess. At about the 10 minute mark, I got put off and decided to play the bluray instead. Suddenly the movie sounded alive and so much better. I thought, maybe it's just me trying to justify purchasing the box set and decided to play via prime again and the movie sounded dead again. Is my experience unique or does everyone feel the same? Coz if it is so different I'll have to really go all out and buy so many bluray (esp TV shows). Internet speeds are 50 mbps up and 50 mbps down with a low ping (2ms) so I wouldn't say that should be a bottleneck. Nvidia shield pro 2019 was used to stream Amazon prime.

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Last edited by BhootZ; 06-01-2020 at 09:08 PM. Reason: Internet speeds
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post #14039 of 14600 Old 06-01-2020, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by BhootZ View Post
I don't know if this is the right place to be posting this but while chilling at home, over the weekend. My wife and I decided to watch the fast and furious movies. On reaching Fast and furious 6 I realized something awkward. It was available on Amazon prime so I just applied the bass eq and started watching it. Within first 5 minutes I felt the sound was off. I thought maybe it was just movie fatigue. Watching 5 movies in 30 hours can cause that, I guess. At about the 10 minute mark, I got put off and decided to play the bluray instead. Suddenly the movie sounded alive and so much better. I thought, maybe it's just me trying to justify purchasing the box set and decided to play via prime again and the movie sounded dead again. Is my experience unique or does everyone feel the same? Coz if it is so different I'll have to really go all out and buy so many bluray (esp TV shows). Internet speeds are 50 mbps up and 50 mbps down with a low ping (2ms) so I wouldn't say that should be a bottleneck. Nvidia shield pro 2019 was used to stream Amazon prime.

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Might want to check what audio format. I thought the BEQ is for the UHD DTS-X HRA. The Blu Ray is I think DTS-H MA 5.1, and goodness knows what you get from prime - probably acs 5.1.
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post #14040 of 14600 Old 06-01-2020, 10:05 PM
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Might want to check what audio format. I thought the BEQ is for the UHD DTS-X HRA. The Blu Ray is I think DTS-H MA 5.1, and goodness knows what you get from prime - probably acs 5.1.
Sorry yes. I have the UHD version. Blu ray is easier to remember I guess.
Amazon just says 5.1, no other info available.

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