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post #2341 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 12:15 PM
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by the way, is it fair to say the graph is the same approximately between a BD and UHD?
reason for asking is: I have no UHD 4K player or TV, its so easy to pick a movie at the list from here, and see the settings and graph directly........... or is there movies that differs a lot between BD and UHD, and also between 2 versions of a BD : DTS HD MA and TRUE HD?
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post #2342 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hundrakg View Post
by the way, is it fair to say the graph is the same approximately between a BD and UHD?
reason for asking is: I have no UHD 4K player or TV, its so easy to pick a movie at the list from here, and see the settings and graph directly........... or is there movies that differs a lot between BD and UHD, and also between 2 versions of a BD : DTS HD MA and TRUE HD?
If the BD and UHD are both Atmos or both DTS-HD or whatever, then you can be pretty certain they are the same. Otherwise, they could be quite a bit different in some cases.

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
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Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
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post #2343 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
If the BD and UHD are both Atmos or both DTS-HD or whatever, then you can be pretty certain they are the same. Otherwise, they could be quite a bit different in some cases.
even in the bass area: like 15hz to 45hz, thats where I like to BEQ....
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post #2344 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Drastic difference in the BEQ settings for Oblivion 4K/UHD/ATMOS vs BD/DTS-HD MA 7.1

ATMOS


DTS-HD MA


If you don't follow the format, BEQ with caution at your own risk

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post #2345 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
Here's a link to Stranger Things Season 1 Bluray: https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Stran...lu-ray/193132/

Shows DD 5.1


Yep my bad, 5.1. I just played the first part and I did have it through DSU, sounded great though DSU is pretty darn good sometimes at up mixing.

EDIT: Just compared Neural:X to DSU on this 5.1 mix. Dang, I preferred the Neural quite a bit more actually. It seems a good bit more immersive and more height activity, bass seemed tighter and punchier as well. The opening scene is cool and sounds pretty killer in that laboratory. It sounds like your in there! Cant wait to try BEQ on this.
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post #2346 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 12:48 PM
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thanks, I will graph with BEQDesigner first(If Im not sure), that way I will know for sure....
But if the sound is same format, I should be able to BEQ with confidence, I hope

just to be sure: Atmos(UHD) = True HD(BD), right?

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post #2347 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by hundrakg View Post
thanks, I will graph with BEQDesigner first(If Im not sure), that way I will know for sure....
But if the sound is same format, I should be able to BEQ with confidence, I hope

just to be sure: Atmos(UHD) = True HD(BD), right?
If you can load it up in BEQ Designer, you can be 100% certain.

Atmos is not the same as TrueHD. If the UHD is Atmos and the BD is Atmos, you should be safe. If the UHD is Atmos and the BD is regular TrueHD, you can't be sure without graphing.
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post #2348 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 01:11 PM - Thread Starter
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ATMOS Audio is actually embedded in the core Dolby TrueHD Bitstream, regardless of UHD/BD source.
AVR's and Pre/Pro's just extract object/height metadata and move it to the appropriate channels, The ULF/LFE should be virtually identical.

Same goes with DTS:X embedded in a DTS-HD MA core.

Now when you have a 4K/UHD that is ATMOS exclusive,
and the same titles BD version is often DTS-HD MA (instead of TrueHD)
You just "Might" have an Oblivion Bomb ready explode if you loaded the ATMOS BEQ ontop the DTS-HD MA track on the Bluray
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post #2349 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
If you can load it up in BEQ Designer, you can be 100% certain.

Atmos is not the same as TrueHD. If the UHD is Atmos and the BD is Atmos, you should be safe. If the UHD is Atmos and the BD is regular TrueHD, you can't be sure without graphing.
Ok, I will BEQ design for sure , that is the only way to be sure, I agree..
Was just hoping the bass would be the same with Atmos vs True HD(same movie), but guess not, Im learning, thanks...
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post #2350 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
ATMOS Audio is actually embedded in the core Dolby TrueHD Bitstream, regardless of UHD/BD source.
AVR's and Pre/Pro's just extract object/height metadata and move it to the appropriate channels, The ULF/LFE should be virtually identical.
that was what I meant with my question: "just to be sure: Atmos(UHD) = True HD(BD), right?" so can we say; Atmos(UHD) = True HD(BD) in the bass area?
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post #2351 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 01:29 PM
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or is there a movie (UHD Atmos) that differs quite a bit (in bass) from same movie(BD True HD)?
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post #2352 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by magicj1 View Post
I'm trying to work out what is for the best regarding JR's clipping protection.

1. I could turn it off completely.
The key point to make here is that this is a terrible idea so don't do it

clipping equals distortion
egregious clipping equals egregious distortion

I assume people are doing bass management in Jriver when beq'ing, right?
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post #2353 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Here's my previous post on clipping, proper signal chain setup, pre-bass-management vs. post-bass-management BassEQ, etc...

Cheers aron7awol. Using JR equalizer, I set the preamp slider -6dB lower. Then watched 'The Equalizer 2'. This film didn't clip hard enough to reduce the volume level. (Adjust volume by 0dB for clip protection') was displayed.

However, play the 'Matrix revolutions' opening credits (with the correct BEQ and preamp slider left at -6dB) and 'Adjust volume by -11.7dB for clip protection' is displayed. So boy, this film must run hot!
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post #2354 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hundrakg View Post
that was what I meant with my question: "just to be sure: Atmos(UHD) = True HD(BD), right?" so can we say; Atmos(UHD) = True HD(BD) in the bass area?
As far as LFE/ULF goes? Yes, Absolutely!

(unless someone can prove me wrong)

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post #2355 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hundrakg View Post
Ok, I will BEQ design for sure , that is the only way to be sure, I agree..
Was just hoping the bass would be the same with Atmos vs True HD(same movie), but guess not, Im learning, thanks...
Quote:
Originally Posted by hundrakg View Post
that was what I meant with my question: "just to be sure: Atmos(UHD) = True HD(BD), right?" so can we say; Atmos(UHD) = True HD(BD) in the bass area?
Atmos is an extension of TrueHD, but I assumed what you meant was that the BD had non-Atmos TrueHD, though, otherwise why aren't you calling it Atmos(UHD) and Atmos(BD)?

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4
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post #2356 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
The key point to make here is that this is a terrible idea so don't do it

clipping equals distortion
egregious clipping equals egregious distortion

I assume people are doing bass management in Jriver when beq'ing, right?
Yep, new that was a bad idea

Yes, JR is doing my bass management. I BEQ after this as told.
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post #2357 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
ATMOS Audio is actually embedded in the core Dolby TrueHD Bitstream, regardless of UHD/BD source.
AVR's and Pre/Pro's just extract object/height metadata and move it to the appropriate channels, The ULF/LFE should be virtually identical.

Same goes with DTS:X embedded in a DTS-HD MA core.

Now when you have a 4K/UHD that is ATMOS exclusive,
and the same titles BD version is often DTS-HD MA (instead of TrueHD)
You just "Might" have an Oblivion Bomb ready explode if you loaded the ATMOS BEQ ontop the DTS-HD MA track on the Bluray
Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
As far as LFE/ULF goes? Yes, Absolutely!

(unless someone can prove me wrong)
I agree with what you're saying, but he keeps referring to UHD Atmos vs. BD TrueHD. As we both know, Atmos can also be on the BD, so the fact that he keeps making that distinction leads me to believe when he is referring to BD(TrueHD) he is referring to a non-Atmos TrueHD track. I agree with you in that I can't think of a single example where a UHD had Atmos and the BD had regular TrueHD. If that is not what he means, then he's not describing it properly
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post #2358 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magicj1 View Post
Cheers aron7awol. Using JR equalizer, I set the preamp slider -6dB lower. Then watched 'The Equalizer 2'. This film didn't clip hard enough to reduce the volume level. (Adjust volume by 0dB for clip protection') was displayed.

However, play the 'Matrix revolutions' opening credits (with the correct BEQ and preamp slider left at -6dB) and 'Adjust volume by -11.7dB for clip protection' is displayed. So boy, this film must run hot!
This doesn't make much sense to me (as the comments re "no chance of clipping post BM" should hold here).

Are you using internal volume?
What is that add sub to 10 and 11 ?
What are your room correction settings?
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post #2359 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magicj1 View Post
Cheers aron7awol. Using JR equalizer, I set the preamp slider -6dB lower. Then watched 'The Equalizer 2'. This film didn't clip hard enough to reduce the volume level. (Adjust volume by 0dB for clip protection') was displayed.

However, play the 'Matrix revolutions' opening credits (with the correct BEQ and preamp slider left at -6dB) and 'Adjust volume by -11.7dB for clip protection' is displayed. So boy, this film must run hot!
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
This doesn't make much sense to me (as the comments re "no chance of clipping post BM" should hold here).

Are you using internal volume?
What is that add sub to 10 and 11 ?
What are your room correction settings?
FYI, the Matrix Revolutions mixed-to-mono track shows 5.763 dB of headroom pre-BEQ and 2.844 dB of headroom post-BEQ, less than 3dB difference.

I agree with @3ll3d00d , something seems very off.

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
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post #2360 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I agree with what you're saying, but he keeps referring to UHD Atmos vs. BD TrueHD. As we both know, Atmos can also be on the BD, so the fact that he keeps making that distinction leads me to believe when he is referring to BD(TrueHD) he is referring to a non-Atmos TrueHD track. I agree with you in that I can't think of a single example where a UHD had Atmos and the BD had regular TrueHD. If that is not what he means, then he's not describing it properly
Yup, Agreed 100%

Pretty rare to find a 4K/ATMOS movie that has TrueHD as the main audio track on the Bluray version,
...it's most often DTS-HD from what I've seen from recent memory.

I'm pretty sure anything Disney/LucasFilm/BeunaVista/Marvel and Sony has released in ATMOS is exclusive to the 4K/UHD disc,
and their Blu's are always DTS-HD MA, never TrueHD. Not sure why
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post #2361 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 02:59 PM
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So what you guys are saying is if you select 4K/ATMOS but you have an old AVR's and it show it as TrueHD, is that okay to use the ATMOS BEQ?

Thanks
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post #2362 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 04:13 PM
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So what you guys are saying is if you select 4K/ATMOS but you have an old AVR's and it show it as TrueHD, is that okay to use the ATMOS BEQ?

Thanks
Femi
Correct.
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post #2363 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by femi View Post
So what you guys are saying is if you select 4K/ATMOS but you have an old AVR's and it show it as TrueHD, is that okay to use the ATMOS BEQ?
I know that the question was already answered (yes), but I wanted to elaborate to make sure everyone realizes why...

An Atmos track is TrueHD+Objects, and the processor essentially "moves" objects from that base TrueHD 7.1 layer into space using the object metadata as a guide.

Before we generate these graphs, we mix all of the channels together into a mono track. In this analysis, the objects were not only never moved out of that base layer, but we then combined all the channels into one anyway! So even if they were there own channels and had already been moved, they just would have been mixed back into the mono track, so it would make no difference. This should explain why the object metadata is irrelevant in this particular case.
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Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
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post #2364 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 06:49 PM
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Here's a quick and dirty attempt at measuring/guessing the hotness of a track compared to a "normal" track. @3ll3d00d suggested I use EBU R128 to measure the tracks, and I took the resulting data and tried to come up with a hotness metric.

Here is the result:


Notes:
1. This was really quick and dirty so it's not as good as it can be
2. This is using tracks that have been decimated to 1kHz sample rate, which makes it less accurate to an unknown extent

That being said, I think it's pretty damn accurate. It would be extremely helpful if you guys could review the list and give some feedback. Are there any individual films that stick out as wrong? Are there any that seem spot on? Are they all off by some small amount?

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4
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post #2365 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I know that the question was already answered (yes), but I wanted to elaborate to make sure everyone realizes why...

An Atmos track is TrueHD+Objects, and the processor essentially "moves" objects from that base TrueHD 7.1 layer into space using the object metadata as a guide.

Before we generate these graphs, we mix all of the channels together into a mono track. In this analysis, the objects were not only never moved out of that base layer, but we then combined all the channels into one anyway! So even if they were there own channels and had already been moved, they just would have been mixed back into the mono track, so it would make no difference. This should explain why the object metadata is irrelevant in this particular case.
I can't think of one but have we ever came across a title that was released with only a TrueHD 7.1 track and then the UHD came out with an Atmos track that was a different mix? It seems like it would be crazy to do that but then there's Disney

One other thing to caution on is that you use a release that's similar to the one used to create the BEQ. This shouldn't be an issue for most title but might be for older title. Like the one I'm thinking of is The Crow. It's had a ton of releases with different mixes and unfortunately most of them have been bad in different ways. I never posted my BEQ of it because I gotten a Japanese version of it for the audio mix and it most likely wouldn't match up to what most people have.
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post #2366 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 08:26 PM
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I compared the Netflix streamed version and the DTS-HD from the BD for Stranger Things S01E01 and the only difference was that the BD track is ~2dB hotter. Based on that, it looks like the same BassEQ can be used on both.
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post #2367 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol
Here's a quick and dirty attempt at measuring/guessing the hotness of a track compared to a "normal" track. @3ll3d00d suggested I use EBU R128 to measure the tracks, and I took the resulting data and tried to come up with a hotness metric.
Excellent effort. The list seems pretty accurate to me, and correspond to the adjustments I usually make to my MV.

1. GODZILLA is definitely hot, although I don't mind listening at my usual levels. I bump the MV at my risk. Same thing with Pacific Rim

2. The Incredible Hulk is hot, at I listen to it 3-4 db down from my usual levels.

3. Dredd (DTS-MA 7.1) and GI Joe: Retailation are "normal" tracks to me, and I can bump them 1-4 db with no issues, but sound good at normal levels.

4. Oblivion (DTS-MA 7.1) I usually bump 2-3db, and it still sound low in level.

5. Snow White And The Huntsman, like I already told you in a previous post, I raise the MV like 4-5 db, again, list seems pretty accurate.

6. John Wick can't remember the exact amount, but I definitely bump a few dbs, so it's indeed low in level. Same with Atomic Blonde.

I shudder to think how loud Dunkirk and Interstellar would be!! (I've watched both, but not on my system).

Ant-Man And The Wasp apparently will break the record of dbs added in my system. I've never added, so far, more than 5 dbs to a particular movie.

Out of interest and curiosity, how "hot" is Tron: Legacy? I'm willing to bet it's 4-5 db hot.
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post #2368 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
This doesn't make much sense to me (as the comments re "no chance of clipping post BM" should hold here).

Are you using internal volume?
What is that add sub to 10 and 11 ?
What are your room correction settings?
'Internal volume' No not yet. I used jrivers equaliser preamp 'slider' to make the adjustments for testing purposes.

My processor excepts a 16 channel digital input, so I use a AES16e PCI express card. This allows me copy the LFE channel to 10 & 11 inputs (have subs in 3 locations). I then use my processor to adjust speaker distances to time align.

I cross at 100 Hz.

I have another PC that uses jriver. I get exactly the same results. Even with BEQ off my copy of ‘the matrix revolution’ pushes jriver to clipping. You can watch this in jriver ‘Analyzer’.
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post #2369 of 8097 Old 11-15-2018, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I agree with what you're saying, but he keeps referring to UHD Atmos vs. BD TrueHD. As we both know, Atmos can also be on the BD, so the fact that he keeps making that distinction leads me to believe when he is referring to BD(TrueHD) he is referring to a non-Atmos TrueHD track. I agree with you in that I can't think of a single example where a UHD had Atmos and the BD had regular TrueHD. If that is not what he means, then he's not describing it properly
sorry , I see my writing in English is bad formulated..... I agree what you are all saying..
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post #2370 of 8097 Old 11-16-2018, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmerCa View Post
Excellent effort. The list seems pretty accurate to me, and correspond to the adjustments I usually make to my MV.

1. GODZILLA is definitely hot, although I don't mind listening at my usual levels. I bump the MV at my risk. Same thing with Pacific Rim

2. The Incredible Hulk is hot, at I listen to it 3-4 db down from my usual levels.

3. Dredd (DTS-MA 7.1) and GI Joe: Retailation are "normal" tracks to me, and I can bump them 1-4 db with no issues, but sound good at normal levels.

4. Oblivion (DTS-MA 7.1) I usually bump 2-3db, and it still sound low in level.

5. Snow White And The Huntsman, like I already told you in a previous post, I raise the MV like 4-5 db, again, list seems pretty accurate.

6. John Wick can't remember the exact amount, but I definitely bump a few dbs, so it's indeed low in level. Same with Atomic Blonde.

I shudder to think how loud Dunkirk and Interstellar would be!! (I've watched both, but not on my system).

Ant-Man And The Wasp apparently will break the record of dbs added in my system. I've never added, so far, more than 5 dbs to a particular movie.

Out of interest and curiosity, how "hot" is Tron: Legacy? I'm willing to bet it's 4-5 db hot.
Thanks for the feedback! I actually ran a bunch more last night after I posted that list, including TRON Legacy, but I'm at work right now and don't have access to my spreadsheet.

I have a bunch more testing to do. The next thing I want to do is test some tracks with 2kHz sampling rate and 4kHz sampling rate and see if I can get more accurate results by using one of those sampling rates instead of 1kHz. Then I think it's just maybe tweaking the 0-point a tiny bit and it's probably good to go. I'll use it to "predict" MV adjustments on films I'm about to watch and see how it works out with reality.
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