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post #2371 of 8196 Old 11-16-2018, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Here's a quick and dirty attempt at measuring/guessing the hotness of a track compared to a "normal" track.

Are there any individual films that stick out as wrong? Are there any that seem spot on? Are they all off by some small amount?
Great job!

Looks spot on for the most part. A little surprised RP1 isn’t a tad hot, but it’s a very well balanced track with great dynamics. Bass monsters at the top and all the latest Disney/Marvel movies at the bottom...seems about right!

I’d be curious as to where all the films fit, though it’d make for a really big graph.

I watched Dunkirk, Blade Runner 2049, Interstellar, and Pacific Rim at the same IMAX, and while I know Dunkirk has clipping galore, the BR 2049 soundtrack was just brutal bordering on uncomfortably loud throughout, perhaps a theater setup issue that day. I can still comfortably listen to all these movies at home around -7 or so without fatigue, with Pacific Rim being the easiest to listen to at reference level.
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post #2372 of 8196 Old 11-16-2018, 09:44 AM
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The early results of testing multiple sample rates are really promising! It looks like even using a sample rate as low as 1kHz (this is the sample rate we normally use for BEQ design) the relative error for this loudness metric is only ~0.5dB! Now it just comes down to testing how close the measurement and resulting prediction is to reality.
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post #2373 of 8196 Old 11-16-2018, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Here's a quick and dirty attempt at measuring/guessing the hotness of a track compared to a "normal" track. @3ll3d00d suggested I use EBU R128 to measure the tracks, and I took the resulting data and tried to come up with a hotness metric.

Here is the result:

Notes:
1. This was really quick and dirty so it's not as good as it can be
2. This is using tracks that have been decimated to 1kHz sample rate, which makes it less accurate to an unknown extent

That being said, I think it's pretty damn accurate. It would be extremely helpful if you guys could review the list and give some feedback. Are there any individual films that stick out as wrong? Are there any that seem spot on? Are they all off by some small amount?
Well out of the list with the ones I'm familiar with and feel confident in saying anything on are PR, TS, TIH ,BR2049 (all towards the top of the list) as definitely being hot compared to most, then RP1 and JW:FK seem about right and at the bottom Avengers:AOU definitely low and BP the worst of the bunch for being low levels.

For being quick and dirty on this list, I think you nailed it pretty good and sounds like it might even get better. This will be awesome to have in addition to all the fantastic info included with the BEQ filters. The BEQ package and layout in these posts (PVA, BEQ's PVA, the BEQ filters, the spectro before and after comparison, the graphics etc, now a loudness scale and suggested MV to normalize it). Killer!! Just keeps getting better and better, hell yeah!! Makes it real easy to look at and analyze quickly. Once again, amazing work you guys!!

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post #2374 of 8196 Old 11-16-2018, 10:17 AM
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Hi all,

Wanted to provide my first attempt at using BEQ designer. It is of my version of Avengers: Infinity War (2018) - DTS-HD (non-atmos)

I tried to apply the same LS filter and scale aron7awol used on the atmos version, the graph appears very similar but not exact.

Obviously as being discussed, some movies have much greater variances between versions, however my version (non-atmos) is near identical to the atmos version Aron7 completed

Please however, no one do any adjustments based on what I have said/posted here as I am not yet comfortable with this process and am just doing it as a test for fun/my own experimentation.

As I get more familiar however, I would be willing to help Pio/Aron make graphs based on movies I have that they may not.

But I will leave that up to them, of course cannot have everyone just posting all sorts of graphs which other people may rely on, that can get dangerous... don't want too many chefs in the kitchen

Cheers,

PS: Just noticed my filter scale on the right is missing, when I enable it I get a light blue line that represents the low shelf filter applied, wasn't sure how to get that to not show yet still have the scale showing like in how aron7awol / pio have when they post. No problem, I will keep experimenting!
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post #2375 of 8196 Old 11-16-2018, 12:52 PM
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Would you guys say "Mother!" is neutral or more like 2dB hot?

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post #2376 of 8196 Old 11-16-2018, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
I’d be curious as to where all the films fit, though it’d make for a really big graph.
I'm blasting through a ton here at work, and when I get home I'll combine these with the bunch I did last night, and we'll have quite a big list already.

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post #2377 of 8196 Old 11-16-2018, 04:19 PM
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Here's a new list with about 90 movies and a slightly tweaked formula (please post feedback!):



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post #2378 of 8196 Old 11-16-2018, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Here's a new list with about 90 movies and a slightly tweaked formula (please post feedback!):

Awesome man!

These graphs definitely help visualize how loud a track is, but as far as a pure measure for bass potential, it’s hard to glance at a film and see how good the bass is. It’s still a very solid indicator with only a few anomalies as far as bass goes. For example, Star Trek and Star Trek Beyond are tied with equal loudness at +0.5. .

It is interesting a few of the highest regarded bass films the last few years are around 0 on the scale, 13 Hours, Ready Player One, Total Recall, etc. Is this an indication these films may have higher dynamics but an overall “normalized level” for the rest of track?

Where would the latest 4K Fury and Matrix Trilogy tracks fit? The bass in Fury‘s Atmos track nearly gave me a panic attack at reference.

Keep up the great work!

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post #2379 of 8196 Old 11-16-2018, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Awesome man!

These graphs definitely help visualize how loud a track is, but as far as a pure measure for bass potential, it’s hard to glance at a film and see how good the bass is. It’s still a very solid indicator with only a few anomalies as far as bass goes. For example, Star Trek and Star Trek Beyond are tied with equal loudness at +0.5. .

It is interesting a few of the highest regarded bass films the last few years are around 0 on the scale, 13 Hours, Ready Player One, Total Recall, etc. Is this an indication these films may have higher dynamics but an overall “normalized level” for the rest of track?

Where would the latest 4K Fury and Matrix Trilogy tracks fit? The bass in Fury‘s Atmos track nearly gave me a panic attack at reference.

Keep up the great work!
I look at it as it is measuring the overall level of the track, including the bass but the bass is only a part of it. For me, the level of the <30Hz bass in a track doesn't really dictate how loud I turn it up. Usually, it's everything above that that limits me, in that the track will get too harsh before it gets too bassy. I feel like this metric captures how much I adjust MV on a track pretty well, but I agree there are some examples worth looking into more, such as the Star Trek and Star Trek Beyond comparison you brought up.
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post #2380 of 8196 Old 11-16-2018, 06:32 PM
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Fury (Atmos) +3.5
The Matrix (Atmos) +1.5
The Matrix Reloaded (Atmos) +3.5
The Matrix Revolutions (Atmos) +3.5

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post #2381 of 8196 Old 11-16-2018, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol
I feel like this metric captures how much I adjust MV on a track pretty well, but I agree there are some examples worth looking into more, such as the Star Trek and Star Trek Beyond comparison you brought up.
I see your new method bumped the overall level for all tracks. Regardless of the specific "hotness" of a track, the proportions between the mixes are for the most part accurate. It feels a bit weird seeing Life being on the same level as obviously hot tracks like Tron or Man Of Steel, while The Great Wall is below. I think what makes a particular tracks sound louder than other depends on the type of sounds effects or music featured on a track.

It's also surprising to see Batman V. Superman as a "normal" track. I need to rewatch it, but it seemed to me hot. Same as Power Rangers, but maybe these movies just have some insanely devastating fights/destruction scenes. I'm planning to rewatch some of the movies on the new list, so I'll update my thoughts. But this experiment looks promising.

I appreciate all your effort.

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post #2382 of 8196 Old 11-17-2018, 02:54 AM
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What a great software the BEQ Designer is

Tried it over the past days, works great...
A question: what files does it support? Does it support folders

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post #2383 of 8196 Old 11-17-2018, 03:06 AM
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A question: what files does it support? Does it support folders
I don't know what it means to support a folder

it uses ffmpeg so anything ffmpeg supports
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post #2384 of 8196 Old 11-17-2018, 03:38 AM
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I don't know what it means to support a folder

it uses ffmpeg so anything ffmpeg supports
oki then, then I will google "ffmpeg and support"...
Thanks.....

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post #2385 of 8196 Old 11-17-2018, 04:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Here's a new list with about 90 movies and a slightly tweaked formula (please post feedback!):








Looking great appreciate your effort in putting it together..but as the list gets bigger scrolling from top to bottom is going to be interesting.
Is there a way of expanding it horizontally with films with the same rating are bunched together ?
Or Maybe having 5 or 7 colours and listing that way?

Red
Orange
Yellow
Green
Blue
Indigo
Violet




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post #2386 of 8196 Old 11-17-2018, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmerCa View Post
I see your new method bumped the overall level for all tracks. Regardless of the specific "hotness" of a track, the proportions between the mixes are for the most part accurate. It feels a bit weird seeing Life being on the same level as obviously hot tracks like Tron or Man Of Steel, while The Great Wall is below. I think what makes a particular tracks sound louder than other depends on the type of sounds effects or music featured on a track.

It's also surprising to see Batman V. Superman as a "normal" track. I need to rewatch it, but it seemed to me hot. Same as Power Rangers, but maybe these movies just have some insanely devastating fights/destruction scenes. I'm planning to rewatch some of the movies on the new list, so I'll update my thoughts. But this experiment looks promising.

I appreciate all your effort.
I agree that there are some that don't seem to make sense relative to the rest, and it actually makes me question just how accurate this can be for our uses. On the other hand, looking at the list as a whole, the vast majority of them do make sense. I'm just going to keep experimenting/testing and see what happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil1975m View Post
Looking great appreciate your effort in putting it together..but as the list gets bigger scrolling from top to bottom is going to be interesting.
Is there a way of expanding it horizontally with films with the same rating are bunched together ?
Or Maybe having 5 or 7 colours and listing that way?
I really just posted that list to give everyone an opportunity to look at the list I had compiled to experiment with. I'm still not sure how this experiment is going to end up, and what will end up getting published, but my initial thought was a value published with each BassEQ, and then maybe a master list in a Google Doc or some other published format.

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post #2387 of 8196 Old 11-17-2018, 01:35 PM
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FWIW anyone who uses jriver has these values available for their entire library via the audio analysis (which typically runs on import). Look for the Volume Level (R128) tag. This value is the offset required to bring the track to the target -23 LUFS levels (i.e. is the amount it changes the volume level if using volume levelling) hence the sign is reversed to that used by @aron7awol (i.e. he reports a positive number as meaning a hot track whereas jriver reports this as a negative number because applying standard means you should reduce the volume on a hot track).

some of the numbers are quite different though, for example black panther reports as 0.0 LU and Last Jedi as 0.9 LU
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post #2388 of 8196 Old 11-17-2018, 02:03 PM
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for linux users, https://packages.debian.org/stretch/ebumeter is a very fast implementation which can analyse a mono track in seconds, it can also produce a histogram view which I think shows how the loudness of the track is distributed (details in https://kokkinizita.linuxaudio.org/p...meter-pres.pdf)
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post #2389 of 8196 Old 11-17-2018, 02:17 PM
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Had to start a case with them. It goes all the way but then does not get the IP address through auto and I am then unable to get back into the interface page as it says the connection is refused or page does not exist. That then keeps me from knowing the IP address to enter manually in to the plugin. Ugh


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I’m currently fighting with the wi-dg too, pretty frustrating. Mine has an ip, I can access in the browser all day, but the plugin rarely finds it. Im using unifi WiFi and wondering if it’s some weird interaction, I’m gonna try another router. Also though doesn’t work on the wire. Not super impressed with it so far. The browser interface doesn’t have a stats page to show the actual connection it thinks it has, although I can see it in the unifi controller. Dunno so far it’s way more work than the usb cable rofl.
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I’m currently fighting with the wi-dg too, pretty frustrating. Mine has an ip, I can access in the browser all day, but the plugin rarely finds it. Im using unifi WiFi and wondering if it’s some weird interaction, I’m gonna try another router. Also though doesn’t work on the wire. Not super impressed with it so far. The browser interface doesn’t have a stats page to show the actual connection it thinks it has, although I can see it in the unifi controller. Dunno so far it’s way more work than the usb cable rofl.


I finally got it to work though I have to enter the IP address manually each time. These are the instructions I got from support:

Make sure your computer is in the same network domain as Wi-DG, i.e. 192.168.×.x

If you reset Wi-DG to factory default following user manual section 7.2 and then plug Ethernet cable from PC to Wi-DG directly and enter IP address 192.168.100.1 in wen browser, you should also get the interface setup page.

Then as a simple test, plug 2×4HD to Wi-DG, open 2×4HD software, click “Auto” or enter IP address 192.168.100.1 directly, click “Connect” button and try to see if it can be connected?

If it can connect, then follow user manual Section 3 carefully to config Wi-DG into AP mode or Station mode and then connect with 2×4HD plugin software.



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post #2391 of 8196 Old 11-17-2018, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
FWIW anyone who uses jriver has these values available for their entire library via the audio analysis (which typically runs on import). Look for the Volume Level (R128) tag. This value is the offset required to bring the track to the target -23 LUFS levels (i.e. is the amount it changes the volume level if using volume levelling) hence the sign is reversed to that used by @aron7awol (i.e. he reports a positive number as meaning a hot track whereas jriver reports this as a negative number because applying standard means you should reduce the volume on a hot track).

some of the numbers are quite different though, for example black panther reports as 0.0 LU and Last Jedi as 0.9 LU
I just played with this a bit, and it seems like the ReplayGain, which appears to simply be offset by 5 to R128, is pretty close to accurate.

+5.8dB on Black Panther
-5.2dB on Dunkirk
-5.5dB on Interstellar

Thanks for sharing this! I'll analyze a whole bunch using this method.
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post #2392 of 8196 Old 11-17-2018, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
I finally got it to work though I have to enter the IP address manually each time. These are the instructions I got from support:

Thanks, and actually after updating the WiFi firmware and checking everything it is behaving like yours I think. The first connect fails but after that it fills the address in and works the second time. I’m going to put in a reservation for it and try entering the address and see if it works consistently now.



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post #2393 of 8196 Old 11-17-2018, 08:06 PM
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Got my buttkickers up and running and was able to enjoy a couple movies tonight.
Took me about an hour of getting my buttkicked and then got accustomed to the new movie watching experience.

Watched Jurassic World:Fallen Kingdom, and Sicario Day of the Soldado.

Aron's settings, and bk's crossed over at 18hz. JWFK was lots of fun, plenty of bass low enough to get those kickers moving. Sicario was a nicely done beq as well...convoy scene was spectacular.

Can't wait to start knocking more of these beq's out and falling in love with my movie collection all over again.

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post #2394 of 8196 Old 11-17-2018, 10:16 PM
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BassEQ The Incredible Hulk (2008) DTS:X




I know what you're thinking. BassEQ on The Incredible Hulk? Has aron lost his damn mind? Just hear me out...

This is really what's been driving me to get the MV adjustment quantified. Have you ever played The Incredible Hulk at your normal listening levels? I have, and it's half-amazing and half-painful. The bass/ULF is absolutely amazing, but up top it's too loud and harsh. Now you can have the amazing without the pain!

The gain shown here is intended to be a MV adjustment. It might look like you could just put a negative HS instead of the two filters, but for the post-bass-management folks you wouldn't be reducing above the crossover.

Earlier today, I was testing the scenes in this film that I've demoed many times and know very well, but with the -5dB MV adjustment. There was a serious lack of ULF (but it also wasn't harsh) compared to what I was used to. I normally run these demos really loud and deal with the harshness since it is a short-term demo and I want to show off the Crowsons in these scenes. I tested this BEQ, and I got all the ULF I'm used to without the harshness. It's still loud, but it's a level I could actually watch the entire movie at. I'll really happy with how this turned out.
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Last edited by aron7awol; 11-18-2018 at 08:00 PM.
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post #2395 of 8196 Old 11-18-2018, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
FWIW anyone who uses jriver has these values available for their entire library via the audio analysis (which typically runs on import). Look for the Volume Level (R128) tag. This value is the offset required to bring the track to the target -23 LUFS levels (i.e. is the amount it changes the volume level if using volume levelling) hence the sign is reversed to that used by @aron7awol (i.e. he reports a positive number as meaning a hot track whereas jriver reports this as a negative number because applying standard means you should reduce the volume on a hot track).

some of the numbers are quite different though, for example black panther reports as 0.0 LU and Last Jedi as 0.9 LU
That's great. I'd completely forgotten about 'volume levelling'. Martix revolutions is reduced by -7.0dB.
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post #2396 of 8196 Old 11-18-2018, 12:33 AM
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I think adjusting the overall volume level down (and beq to bring the ulf back) seems likely to be a system specific change and suggests that looking at how that side of the system is configured could be beneficial. On the other hand, it might just mean one has much more sub capability than mains.
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post #2397 of 8196 Old 11-18-2018, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
BassEQ The Equalizer 2 (2018) Atmos / DTS-HD MA 7.1


Gawd!!! This track is killer with BEQ (and even without). But damn, with, wicked ULF and overall soundtrack!!! Loved this one and BEQ makes it truly over the top IMO The ending part of the movie is insane!! BEQ for the win yall hahaha!!

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post #2398 of 8196 Old 11-18-2018, 04:24 AM
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Is Logan on the list?
Or am I just missing it


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post #2399 of 8196 Old 11-18-2018, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
BassEQ The Incredible Hulk (2008) Atmos




I know what you're thinking. BassEQ on The Incredible Hulk? Has aron lost his damn mind? Just hear me out...

This is really what's been driving me to get the MV adjustment quantified. Have you ever played The Incredible Hulk at your normal listening levels? I have, and it's half-amazing and half-painful. The bass/ULF is absolutely amazing, but up top it's too loud and harsh. Now you can have the amazing without the pain!

The gain shown here is intended to be a MV adjustment. It might look like you could just put a negative HS instead of the two filters, but for the post-bass-management folks you wouldn't be reducing above the crossover.

Earlier today, I was testing the scenes in this film that I've demoed many times and know very well, but with the -5dB MV adjustment. There was a serious lack of ULF (but it also wasn't harsh) compared to what I was used to. I normally run these demos really loud and deal with the harshness since it is a short-term demo and I want to show off the Crowsons in these scenes. I tested this BEQ, and I got all the ULF I'm used to without the harshness. It's still loud, but it's a level I could actually watch the entire movie at. I'll really happy with how this turned out.
This is quite interesting. I listen to movies loudly compared to a lot of folks on AVS. For the life of me, I don't know how so many people are watching at -20 or -15 from zero and getting powerful dynamics and impact when watching at those levels.
The only thing that keeps me from watching every movie at or slightly above reference is the highs on so many tracks become ear-splittingly unbearable. Never complain about lows or mids in a track....it's those darn highs that hurt.

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post #2400 of 8196 Old 11-18-2018, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
Gawd!!! This track is killer with BEQ (and even without). But damn, with, wicked ULF and overall soundtrack!!! Loved this one and BEQ makes it truly over the top IMO The ending part of the movie is insane!! BEQ for the win yall hahaha!!
Starting to get really jealous of you folks watching and reporting on these awesome flicks before they become available on physical media for the masses.
Just kidding brother...Lol. My fault for being an audiofile, physical media snob. However, I fell in love with Tidal about a year ago, and slowly/painfully accepting that physical media is slowly but surely going the way of the Dodo.
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