Paradigm Ships Defiance Series DSP Subs - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 14 Old 08-20-2018, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Paradigm Ships Defiance Series DSP Subs

Six new subs from Paradigm are on the way in the form of the Defiance V and Defiance X series.

Click here to read the article: https://www.avsforum.com/paradigm-an...sp-subwoofers/

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post #2 of 14 Old 08-20-2018, 12:43 PM
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damn.... can't say I know EVERYTHING about Subwoofs but these look awfully expensive to me compared to other offerings that are popular.
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post #3 of 14 Old 08-20-2018, 12:51 PM
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The big name speaker companies can charge more than the internet-based companies. They have the advantage of actually being able to hear them, as well as mining the demographic that wants to one stop shop. Besides, these are just MSRPs, they will be cheaper at retail. How much cheaper is a speculation, as Paradigm is pretty good about maintaining their margins.

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post #4 of 14 Old 08-20-2018, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by the7mcs View Post
damn.... can't say I know EVERYTHING about Subwoofs but these look awfully expensive to me compared to other offerings that are popular.
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The big name speaker companies can charge more than the internet-based companies. They have the advantage of actually being able to hear them, as well as mining the demographic that wants to one stop shop. Besides, these are just MSRPs, they will be cheaper at retail. How much cheaper is a speculation, as Paradigm is pretty good about maintaining their margins.
I also would consider that including ARC and a mic is a significant differentiator versus the offerings from all the ID brands. It's a very capable room correction system and I consider that one of the most crucial ingredients in getting great sound.
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post #5 of 14 Old 08-20-2018, 02:24 PM
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I also would consider that including ARC and a mic is a significant differentiator versus the offerings from all the ID brands. It's a very capable room correction system and I consider that one of the most crucial ingredients in getting great sound.
The built in ARC is nice for those looking to add a sub to a 2-channel system without room correction in the electronics, or for those with older HT receivers, but I wonder how much cost it adds to the units for those that already have an ARC or Dirac enabled receiver (or one of the better versions of Audyssey even). It seems like it would be a redundant feature in those settings.

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post #6 of 14 Old 08-20-2018, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
The built in ARC is nice for those looking to add a sub to a 2-channel system without room correction in the electronics, or for those with older HT receivers, but I wonder how much cost it adds to the units for those that already have an ARC or Dirac enabled receiver (or one of the better versions of Audyssey even). It seems like it would be a redundant feature in those settings.
Arguably, at least to a point, the question of redundancy is defined by capability. If you have ARC then you don't need it as it would be outright redundant. If you have Dirac, then you also don't need it but could use it if it provided a superior result.

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post #7 of 14 Old 08-20-2018, 03:13 PM
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Besides, these are just MSRPs, they will be cheaper at retail. How much cheaper is a speculation, as Paradigm is pretty good about maintaining their margins.
I've found 20% to be a fairly typical Paradigm dealer discount off MSRP.
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post #8 of 14 Old 08-20-2018, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
The built in ARC is nice for those looking to add a sub to a 2-channel system without room correction in the electronics, or for those with older HT receivers, but I wonder how much cost it adds to the units for those that already have an ARC or Dirac enabled receiver (or one of the better versions of Audyssey even). It seems like it would be a redundant feature in those settings.
I agree and disagree. If you have a tough room using PBK (or ARC) with the sub can smooth things out then using ARC or Direc from the receiver can help finish any remaining issues and use less resources which can be used for correcting other speakers. At least this is what I have found. Also just my opinion.

I have a Sub 2 and PBK'ed it first then used ARC in my MRX700. My room sucks so I need all the help I can get. Changing the room or doing work on it isn't an option especially since I want to move out of this house as soon as I can.
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post #9 of 14 Old 08-20-2018, 05:37 PM
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I agree and disagree. If you have a tough room using PBK (or ARC) with the sub can smooth things out then using ARC or Direc from the receiver can help finish any remaining issues and use less resources which can be used for correcting other speakers. At least this is what I have found. Also just my opinion.

I have a Sub 2 and PBK'ed it first then used ARC in my MRX700. My room sucks so I need all the help I can get. Changing the room or doing work on it isn't an option especially since I want to move out of this house as soon as I can.
Wow, that's a beast of a sub. Does the ARC in the receiver have a certain number of corrections it can apply? Meaning, if the bass needs a lot of work does that mean it can't apply as many to the upper frequencies? I would've figured it would be capable of applying across the spectrum pretty equally, but I'll admit I don't know the details of how it works internally. I'd just worry about the correction built into the sub fighting against the correction in the receiver, sort of how you're not supposed to install two different antivirus programs to run at the same time.

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post #10 of 14 Old 08-21-2018, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
Wow, that's a beast of a sub. Does the ARC in the receiver have a certain number of corrections it can apply? Meaning, if the bass needs a lot of work does that mean it can't apply as many to the upper frequencies? I would've figured it would be capable of applying across the spectrum pretty equally, but I'll admit I don't know the details of how it works internally. I'd just worry about the correction built into the sub fighting against the correction in the receiver, sort of how you're not supposed to install two different antivirus programs to run at the same time.
From what I understand is that the DPS only has so many resources to correct problems. Same as a processor that can only go so fast due to speed, cache, etc....

I forget where I heard this or who told me but the less that has to be corrected the more resources available to correct other peaks and valleys.
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post #11 of 14 Old 08-21-2018, 11:07 AM
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Actually the prices don't look out of line to me at all for MSRP and considering the built-in DSP and wireless that most subs do not have. Paradigm was on my "short list" a few years ago and has always had a solid reputation for good subs. These seem on the lower end of their line so are likely to be pretty popular. I'd guess they'll be a hit.

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post #12 of 14 Old 08-21-2018, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by rwheelwright View Post
From what I understand is that the DPS only has so many resources to correct problems. Same as a processor that can only go so fast due to speed, cache, etc....

I forget where I heard this or who told me but the less that has to be corrected the more resources available to correct other peaks and valleys.
True to a point... There is a limitation to the number of filters that can be implemented and how complex they are, but modern systems have hundreds to thousands so I do not see it as a real problem. I've misplaced my last 1024-band analog equalizer someplace...

Perhaps a bigger issue is dynamic range. Most compensation systems limit the boost and some may limit the cut (not sure on the latter; it is clear you can boost to whatever max output you can sustain, but a cut could probably be "infinite" down to the noise floor -- there are other considerations in practical filter designs that may limit it to 80 ~ 100 dB, still plenty for most of us). Since the biggest, broadest peaks and nulls typically happen in the bass, using some sort of sub EQ before the main EQ can provide much more available dynamic range for the main room correction program so could be a win even in those situations.

As for fighting each other, the usual schema is to run the sub's EQ first to let it do its thing, then not change it whilst running the AVR/processor room correction program so the latter has little to do in the sub region, freeing up headroom for the higher frequencies, and no fighting. Note some highly-credible sources (e.g. Dr. Toole) discourage EQ above the bass region. A look at wavelengths involved and speaker response at higher frequencies is a good indicator of why that is a valid position in many cases.

FWIWFM, HTH, etc. - Don

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post #13 of 14 Old 08-22-2018, 06:25 AM
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I've found 20% to be a fairly typical Paradigm dealer discount off MSRP.
Agreed. I normally negotiate 20-25% with ease.
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post #14 of 14 Old 08-26-2018, 12:46 PM
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My sub has built in EQ and it works very very well.

That being said these are way down on power compared to the ARC enabled new Martin Logan sub line who's pricing is similar.

Geoff A. J., California
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