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post #1 of 21 Old 09-05-2018, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Dream home cinema - subwoofer/room problem

Hello,
I bought with my wife our first dream home cinema. Everything is ok we are satisfied with it, however, there is pretty bad resonance around 32hz. As you can see our acoustic is something opposite which we can call acoustic friendly room(I will add some better pictures soon). That's why we will add some carpet and curtains. However, we have huge concerns that it will be not only the resonance but also the subwoofer that will bother us (unfortunately it was only one that it was in our price range). Right now we are in the USA so I was thinking that maybe it will allow us to buy some better subwoofer on one of the black Fridays sells that would improve the quality of our home audio system. I would like just mention that it's only home theatre dedicated to movies. Any other advice about how to make it more acoustic friendly highly recommended. As you can see in our room there is a lot my wife influence so new subwoofer need to be white or black (glass material- or at least black without wood structure, I hope that I explain it correctly). In the past, I was listening to Paradigm DSP-3400 it something that I would like to get in my home theatre system. I listened also Velodyne and Klipsch but both were out of our price range at the moment when we bought that subwoofer(and does not match with the rest of the equipment). The idea will be selling this one and buy another one so the price will be around ~500$. The room has 25m^2 almost 3m tall. Setup is Dali sensor 7 with Denon 3200 and subwoofer e12f.
Thanks!
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post #2 of 21 Old 09-05-2018, 01:13 PM
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Your sub should be ok, and getting another $500 one might not be that much of an upgrade considering the finish you require which usually cost more. It also sounds like its a room problem as you said in the subject and any sub will have a problem if so. Try the curtains and a carpet, it might help a lot with a very bare room as shown in the pictures. Also consider running audessey if you dont already to see if that helps.


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post #3 of 21 Old 09-05-2018, 06:13 PM
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Imo, your first problem is the sub. Seems too small for your room. I don't know how long you will be in the USA or how do you plan to carry back the sub, but for U.S. 500 your best bet would be the Monolith THX 10. It's big and heavy (around 40+ kg), but it will be the power you might be missing in your room. Other options are the SVS PB-1000 (also 500) and I'd even throw in the Polk HTS 12 ($400 on Amazon) a new product that got a glowing review here in AVS. I don't know about the colors, tho. I'd prioritize the performance over the looks, but that's up to you.

Secondly, since you're there, pick up an UMIK-1, which is a calibrated microphone that you can use with a free software called REW to help you diagnose whatever frequency response issues you may have. This option require more than anything an additional effort from you, but it's gonna be useful in the long run. It's cheaper if you buy it there than if you want to import it later. The software runs some bass sweeps and graphs the frequency response in your room, so you know exactly how each bass frequency performs in your room.

About acoustic treatments, I believe you'll need more professional help there, because it's very room dependent. First, running the aforementioned REW would be a starting point to diagnose any problem. I'm not sure what you could buy right now to improve your room.

I'm not an expert by any means, but the obvious thing to me is you need a bigger and better sub to provide the output and deep bass you'll need in your HT, which btw, looks really nice.

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post #4 of 21 Old 09-06-2018, 06:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the answers(and waiting for more suggestions). I will agree with both of you -even if I improve the acoustics(which is the goal) of the room it still would be not enough for my apartment to meet expectations. The Monolith THX 10 would be a perfect solution I want to have something big and heavy(I have a nice space for it), in my opinion, the only construction like those can give enough bass. However, the problem is the colour(not black/white piano - or at least without wood structure) do you have any other suggestions? Even if I would decide to add some $ to potential new equipment.
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post #5 of 21 Old 09-06-2018, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaromarcin View Post
Thanks for all the answers(and waiting for more suggestions). I will agree with both of you -even if I improve the acoustics(which is the goal) of the room it still would be not enough for my apartment to meet expectations. The Monolith THX 10 would be a perfect solution I want to have something big and heavy(I have a nice space for it), in my opinion, the only construction like those can give enough bass. However, the problem is the colour(not black/white piano - or at least without wood structure) do you have any other suggestions? Even if I would decide to add some $ to potential new equipment.

If by "there is pretty bad resonance around 32hz", you mean vibrations from the walls.
Acoustics treatment will not help much, and I am a firm believer in Acoustics Treatment.


Vibrations from the walls, can only be taken care by adding lots of screws to the walls joist on your drywall to secure-it better, meaning lots of putty and re-paint, I added about 150 in my walls/ceiling my-self.


Sorry to be the bearer of this bad news.


Ray
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post #6 of 21 Old 09-06-2018, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
If by "there is pretty bad resonance around 32hz", you mean vibrations from the walls.
Acoustics treatment will not help much, and I am a firm believer in Acoustics Treatment.


Vibrations from the walls, can only be taken care by adding lots of screws to the walls joist on your drywall to secure-it better, meaning lots of putty and re-paint, I added about 150 in my walls/ceiling my-self.


Sorry to be the bearer of this bad news.


Ray
I'm not a specialist and I will take into consideration all options, however, from walls its very unlikely because it is old style building so it is concrete walls. However the ceiling is not, it is made from gypsum plasterboard, however, I used a lot of screws and used additional glue between all connection. But the room is very empty there is only a couch, desk and one huge wardrobe next to the desk, and even when you have a conversation in the room you can hear "something" like an echo.
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post #7 of 21 Old 09-06-2018, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaromarcin View Post
Thanks for all the answers(and waiting for more suggestions). I will agree with both of you -even if I improve the acoustics(which is the goal) of the room it still would be not enough for my apartment to meet expectations. The Monolith THX 10 would be a perfect solution I want to have something big and heavy(I have a nice space for it), in my opinion, the only construction like those can give enough bass. However, the problem is the colour(not black/white piano - or at least without wood structure) do you have any other suggestions? Even if I would decide to add some $ to potential new equipment.
I think SVS has a piano gloss finish for the PB1000 as well, you'd need to check it out, but of course it would bump it up the cost. I don't know how much you're willing to stretch your budget, but if so, maybe you could look into HSU subwoofers, like the VTF3-MK5 which is said to be the best sub under 600, superior even to the Monolith. Again, I don't know about the finish, but I'm not sure how many quality options you have for 500 that meet your requirements for finish.

The more you pay for a sub it's easier to ask for a certain finish. Again, look for SVS. But seriously, I understand the need for the WAF factor, but performance should be the most important factor. I think for the piano gloss version of the PB1000 you'd be close in price for the PB2000, which is a better sub, and probably much better for your room.

Just my opinion, of course. @MIX_MASTER_ICE knows a lot about subs, so hopefully he could chime in and provide better options.

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post #8 of 21 Old 09-06-2018, 08:42 AM
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Dream home cinema - subwoofer/room problem

A bigger, better and more expensive sub will be an improvement in most areas, but with that empty room you will still have the same problem, room correction might help but as i said try curtains and carpet at the very least. A room thats so naked its not comfortable to talk to another person in it will never be good for sound (almost no matter the equipment)and a few things like carpet and curtains can help a lot as a starting point.


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post #9 of 21 Old 09-06-2018, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaromarcin View Post
I'm not a specialist and I will take into consideration all options, however, from walls its very unlikely because it is old style building so it is concrete walls. However the ceiling is not, it is made from gypsum plasterboard, however, I used a lot of screws and used additional glue between all connection. But the room is very empty there is only a couch, desk and one huge wardrobe next to the desk, and even when you have a conversation in the room you can hear "something" like an echo.
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Originally Posted by Leeliemix View Post
A bigger, better and more expensive sub will be an improvement in most areas, but with that empty room you will still have the same problem, room correction might help but as i said try curtains and carpet at the very least. A room thats so naked its not comfortable to talk to another person in it will never be good for sound (almost no matter the equipment)and a few things like carpet and curtains can help a lot as a starting point.


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Hi,

I think it's important to separate the issue of a boomy sounding subwoofer (with a resonance that may be under 40Hz) from the room echo you hear due to all the bare reflective surfaces. Softening influences such as carpet, drapes, and wall hangings (including wall art or acoustic panels) will definitely help with respect to mid-range and high-frequency reflections. And, they will reduce the slap-echo you are hearing, and make the room more comfortable for conversation.

But, as Ray noted, none of those things will have any effect at all on any of the frequencies that your subwoofer can play, and especially not on frequencies below 40Hz. Even the thickest bass traps (12" deep or so) can only affect frequencies down to about 60Hz or 70Hz. Bass frequencies may go through curtains, rugs, and even walls, as if they aren't even there.

If you are getting nasty resonance at low-frequencies from your subwoofer it is due to one of two things, or possibly to a combination of the two. First, I agree with others who have observed that your subwoofer is simply not powerful enough for the room and for the listening distances. For a desktop computer system, at a distance of a couple of feet, in a small room, it might be alright. @AmerCa made some good suggestions for alternative subwoofer options.

Second, the placement of a subwoofer in a room strongly affects its performance. You should Google "sub crawl" and perform one to find the best acoustical location for your subwoofer. I can't guarantee that will fix your problem. As I said, I think that the subwoofer is simply not powerful enough, in any event. But, it may help a little until you can secure a replacement. And, it will be good practice for when you do have a more capable subwoofer, because subwoofers are like restaurants. Other than a subwoofer's native performance abilities, the three most important factors are "Location, Location, and Location".

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #10 of 21 Old 09-06-2018, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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I made a a few hours of testing in the past. I also borrow second one the same subwoofer (I haven't got exactly the same cable for it to plug in so I can't say that I have exactly the same setup) but the main point is that second subwoofer also did not help. Yes, I have the spot which is best (better than other) behind/very close to the couch. So I believe that material from the couch helps a lot to improve the sound. In December during my visit to my apartment, I can play with the environment and check the effect and let you know how does it go. So maybe right now I would like to focus on the alternative subwoofer. Can you recommend something more if we take into consideration visual requirement as well (black or white piano glass) -I can add some $ to this investment? Can you recommend some shops which I can check the acoustic panels as well?
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post #11 of 21 Old 09-06-2018, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaromarcin View Post
I made a a few hours of testing in the past. I also borrow second one the same subwoofer (I haven't got exactly the same cable for it to plug in so I can't say that I have exactly the same setup) but the main point is that second subwoofer also did not help. Yes, I have the spot which is best (better than other) behind/very close to the couch. So I believe that material from the couch helps a lot to improve the sound. In December during my visit to my apartment, I can play with the environment and check the effect and let you know how does it go. So maybe right now I would like to focus on the alternative subwoofer. Can you recommend something more if we take into consideration visual requirement as well (black or white piano glass) -I can add some $ to this investment? Can you recommend some shops which I can check the acoustic panels as well?

Hi,

If I were focused on a piano black subwoofer, I would probably start by looking at something like an SVS PB2000. It is a good ported subwoofer, and I would stay with ported if I were you. As far as acoustic panels go, your best bet will be to order online. An online search will reveal a number of companies that make acoustic panels--some of which resemble wall art. This is one popular company. (Most of the companies will be glad to talk with you by phone and to give you some free advice.)

https://www.gikacoustics.com/product...oustic-panels/

Regards,
Mike
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Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #12 of 21 Old 09-06-2018, 02:01 PM
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mthomas is right. At your prince range SVS is probably your best (only?) bet for glossy finishes. I don't know about "commercial" brands in that respect, but like I said I'd only recommend the Monolith or the Polk HTS 12, and they don't meet your requirements.

Have you checked out the HSU sub I mentioned earlier? Maybe they could do something for you if you ask, I'm not sure.

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In your room looking for Piano black you may want to re-evaluate your budget. These come in Piano black and are the size you should be looking at if you can swing it:

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FV15HP_features.html

In the meantime try stuffing the sub in a corner two or so inches from the wall and fire the driver into the wall. You need all the boundary gain you can muster (pi/2).

https://trueaudio.com/st_spcs1.htm
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post #14 of 21 Old 09-07-2018, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all answers and suggestions. I really appreciate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmerCa View Post
mthomas is right. At your prince range SVS is probably your best (only?) bet for glossy finishes. I don't know about "commercial" brands in that respect, but like I said I'd only recommend the Monolith or the Polk HTS 12, and they don't meet your requirements.

Have you checked out the HSU sub I mentioned earlier? Maybe they could do something for you if you ask, I'm not sure.

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Thanks for the option with HSU, it is right the best option for me it is not piano glass(it is satin) but I'm not able to find any that will meet the size(sound requirements). You said that the best subwoofer under 600$ right now I could not find it cheaper than 799$. I can wait and check the price from time to time maybe on black Friday will be cheaper. Another option which crosses my mind would be SVS PB12-Plus (black piano -but this one cost 1399$ - Do you think that I will be able to get one of them on black Friday much cheaper?).
Do you see any other option comparable to the price of HSU? (I still consider that I will be able to get it around 600$?
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post #15 of 21 Old 09-07-2018, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaromarcin View Post
I made a a few hours of testing in the past. I also borrow second one the same subwoofer (I haven't got exactly the same cable for it to plug in so I can't say that I have exactly the same setup) but the main point is that second subwoofer also did not help. Yes, I have the spot which is best (better than other) behind/very close to the couch. So I believe that material from the couch helps a lot to improve the sound. In December during my visit to my apartment, I can play with the environment and check the effect and let you know how does it go. So maybe right now I would like to focus on the alternative subwoofer. Can you recommend something more if we take into consideration visual requirement as well (black or white piano glass) -I can add some $ to this investment? Can you recommend some shops which I can check the acoustic panels as well?

The different cable, will Not make any difference!!!

Quality or the same cables, are nice to have, but for this exercise, any cable will do


Ray
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Earlier there was a recommendation from AmerCa to buy VTF-MK3 as best subwoofer under 600$ (now it is 799$) so the question is if the price change so much or Did you/he mean VTF-2 MK5?
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Do you see any other option comparable to the price of HSU? (I still consider that I will be able to get it around 600$?
My mistake. I got mixed up the HSU subs. The correct one is the one linked a couple of posts back, the VTF2-MK5. They all look the same! However, if you could push for the VTF3-MK5 of course it's the better option. But all HSU subs have a great reputation and are solid options.

If I understood you correctly, you're not from the USA. If you plan to stay there around Black Friday, you could find some good deals for sure, but, again, you'd need to push your budget to have better finish option. SVS have frequent outlets, but I don't think you could get that model under $1000, even on Black Friday. Maybe used or in some great deal, but no one can know for sure.

I'm not the person to go for subwoofer recommendations, there are far more knowledgeable people than me in these matters. I only gave you some basic options.

I'd recommend you to ask in the respective subwoofer owners thread to get more specific info on any brand. People there are always wiĺling to help. The SVS, HSU, and Rhytmik threads (and many others) are almost always in the first page of this subforum, and they could give you the answers you're looking for. And you could even get an answer directly from the developers themselves!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaromarcin View Post
Earlier there was a recommendation from AmerCa to buy VTF-MK3 as best subwoofer under 600$ (now it is 799$) so the question is if the price change so much or Did you/he mean VTF-2 MK5?

The VTF-2 should work for you. It's $509 plus shipping.
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I also got a recommendation to look into BK subwoofers. I think about Monolith(£464.95) or Monolith plus(£569.95). I have to read more about this two. What are your thought related to this one? Do you have any experience?
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Originally Posted by jaromarcin View Post
I also got a recommendation to look into BK subwoofers. I think about Monolith(£464.95) or Monolith plus(£569.95). I have to read more about this two. What are your thought related to this one? Do you have any experience?
I don't know much about BK. The Monoliths are new but well reviewed and really tough to beat price-to-performance wise. They are reportedly OEM'd by Claridy Audio. But you won't get much, if any, post-sale customer support like you would from HSU (if that is important to you).

http://www.claridyaudio.com
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