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post #1 of 48 Old 09-22-2018, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Deep chest punch

Hi,

I have a 15x15' square room, to openings at the front, only the rear has full corners. seating position is 1 foot from wall centered, tv on opposite wall. klipsch rc62ii center, and 4 jbl sp8ii surrounds. PB 2000 sub at the moment. 5.1 system setup

I'm mostly a movie guy, like feeling the explosions and chest punch sounds I hear people refer to.

I had a JBL ES250P, amp died on it after a year. Spent like 250 on it

Decided to get the PB-2000 everyone talks about for 650. I don't feel the punch with the sub gain all the way up, like I did with the JBL.

I have gone through the forums on putting the sub many places, subwoofers crawl, etc. Ive tried all I can with the PB-2000

So, my question is, with everything the same (positioning, movie sequence, speakers, receiver, room size, etc...), do you get more chest punch from a pb-2000 or a klipsch 115 or a HSU sub? Should I move to 15" subs?
A youtuber said he felt more with the HSU than the SVS, but that was just one opinion.

I just want to know the most explosive sounding sub for the $800 dollar price range. I want my HOUSE to shake, not just the floor if that's possible in my price range.
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post #2 of 48 Old 09-22-2018, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWarrior97 View Post
Hi,

I have a 15x15' square room, to openings at the front, only the rear has full corners. seating position is 1 foot from wall centered, tv on opposite wall. klipsch rc62ii center, and 4 jbl sp8ii surrounds. PB 2000 sub at the moment. 5.1 system setup

I'm mostly a movie guy, like feeling the explosions and chest punch sounds I hear people refer to.

I had a JBL ES250P, amp died on it after a year. Spent like 250 on it

Decided to get the PB-2000 everyone talks about for 650. I don't feel the punch with the sub gain all the way up, like I did with the JBL.

I have gone through the forums on putting the sub many places, subwoofers crawl, etc. Ive tried all I can with the PB-2000

So, my question is, with everything the same (positioning, movie sequence, speakers, receiver, room size, etc...), do you get more chest punch from a pb-2000 or a klipsch 115 or a HSU sub? Should I move to 15" subs?
A youtuber said he felt more with the HSU than the SVS, but that was just one opinion.

I just want to know the most explosive sounding sub for the $800 dollar price range. I want my HOUSE to shake, not just the floor if that's possible in my price range.
There's a lot of variables in play that will affect whether you are able to get the chest slam you are after. I would first get a calibrated mic and REW to see what type of response you're getting in your seating area. You can buy the best sub in the world, but if you're in a null it really won't matter.

SVS subs aren't known for great mid bass which is where the "punch" typically resides, anywhere from 60-100hz. PSA is going to give you most mid bass for your money, but their subs start at $999. If you can find another $200 in your budget I think you will be pleasant pleased with a PSA sub. I went from a PB 2000 to the PSA 15V and have never looked back.

But again, get a mic and learn REW. It will save you a lot of time!
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Speakers: Fronts- JBL 230, Center- JBL 235C, Surrounds: Fluance XLBP
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post #3 of 48 Old 09-22-2018, 01:50 PM
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Treat yourself! http://hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3mk5HP.html

The HSUs will outperform the others you are considering (including tactile feel), by a significant margin.
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post #4 of 48 Old 09-22-2018, 02:01 PM
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TheWarrior97

You may also want to try this;
III-C: Cascading Crossovers:
This will increase a little those mid bass frequcies, where the punch you are refering to, are.


Ray
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post #5 of 48 Old 09-22-2018, 02:54 PM
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You’d get the most out of your money by spending $100 on the UMIK1 and downloading REW for free. Until we (you) know how your FR is working it’s useless to speculate.

Although in the meantime download an SPL meter and play a test tone through the PB2K and walk around the room seeing where in increases and decreases. You may have to move your seating. I had to totally rearrange my room twice to get my PB2K to output properly.

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| Sub | Trilithon | Stonehenge Variant Subwoofer - 18” - 9ft³ - 19Hz | Marty | Microcube 390HO - 22Hz | Monolith THX Ultra 12 | Monolith THX Select 10 |
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post #6 of 48 Old 09-22-2018, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWarrior97 View Post
Hi,

I have a 15x15' square room, to openings at the front, only the rear has full corners. seating position is 1 foot from wall centered, tv on opposite wall. klipsch rc62ii center, and 4 jbl sp8ii surrounds. PB 2000 sub at the moment. 5.1 system setup

I'm mostly a movie guy, like feeling the explosions and chest punch sounds I hear people refer to.

I had a JBL ES250P, amp died on it after a year. Spent like 250 on it

Decided to get the PB-2000 everyone talks about for 650. I don't feel the punch with the sub gain all the way up, like I did with the JBL.

I have gone through the forums on putting the sub many places, subwoofers crawl, etc. Ive tried all I can with the PB-2000

So, my question is, with everything the same (positioning, movie sequence, speakers, receiver, room size, etc...), do you get more chest punch from a pb-2000 or a klipsch 115 or a HSU sub? Should I move to 15" subs?
A youtuber said he felt more with the HSU than the SVS, but that was just one opinion.

I just want to know the most explosive sounding sub for the $800 dollar price range. I want my HOUSE to shake, not just the floor if that's possible in my price range.
I added a diagram of my room with the specs on my initial thread...if that helps

Yamaha Aventage 3070
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post #7 of 48 Old 09-22-2018, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWarrior97 View Post
I added a diagram of my room with the specs on my initial thread...if that helps
Thanks for adding this diagram.

From, what I see, your rear, placement may be your best bet, due to your open space on the left, and a very big one the right.
But strongly your read this thread;
Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
To achieve the best bass you can!

That said, due to those opening.
I think, you are chasing the White Rabbit
Getting the chest slam you want, with a room open to others area, is very hard to fill.
While very possible, it require a lot mid bass.

The rear field placement, will give some extra tactile feels, sometime refer to chest slam, while it is not really the same.
To learn more about these, here's another link;
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...ual-guide.html


Ray

Last edited by darthray; 09-22-2018 at 08:15 PM.
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post #8 of 48 Old 09-22-2018, 08:22 PM
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Sell the PB2000 if you're no longer within SVS trial period, add that money to your budget and pick anything from PSA's outlet.

https://www.powersoundaudio.com/coll.../outlet-center

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post #9 of 48 Old 09-22-2018, 09:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jaurhead View Post
Sell the PB2000 if you're no longer within SVS trial period, add that money to your budget and pick anything from PSA's outlet.

https://www.powersoundaudio.com/coll.../outlet-center
Still in return time frame, which is why all these questions.

So the equivalent specs of a PSA will give me more punch than the SVS?

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post #10 of 48 Old 09-22-2018, 09:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
TheWarrior97

You may also want to try this;
III-C: Cascading Crossovers:
This will increase a little those mid bass frequcies, where the punch you are refering to, are.


Ray
Tried this out, turned that back of the sub to 80hz, which is what my speakers are set too. A little improvement...MAYBE...but nothing to what I was expecting this sub to output.

Thanks so much for your suggestion!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBateman View Post
You’d get the most out of your money by spending $100 on the UMIK1 and downloading REW for free. Until we (you) know how your FR is working it’s useless to speculate.

Although in the meantime download an SPL meter and play a test tone through the PB2K and walk around the room seeing where in increases and decreases. You may have to move your seating. I had to totally rearrange my room twice to get my PB2K to output properly.
Used an spl meter on my phone and the back two corners had the loudest decibels in the room. Placed the sub there and it was louder, just not what I was expecting for full gain on the subwoofer and $630 dollars.

Yamaha Aventage 3070
Sony XBR-55x850b
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post #12 of 48 Old 09-22-2018, 09:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Treat yourself! http://hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3mk5HP.html

The HSUs will outperform the others you are considering (including tactile feel), by a significant margin.
Thanks for the help.

have you used SVS before? Tried PSA and HSU? IS HSU going to give me more punch than the SVS and PSA?

Just looking for advice from someone that has tried multiple sub brands.

Thanks

Yamaha Aventage 3070
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post #13 of 48 Old 09-22-2018, 09:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Thanks for adding this diagram.

From, what I see, your rear, placement may be your best bet, due to your open space on the left, and a very big one the right.
But strongly your read this thread;
Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
To achieve the best bass you can!

That said, due to those opening.
I think, you are chasing the White Rabbit
Getting the chest slam you want, with a room open to others area, is very hard to fill.
While very possible, it require a lot mid bass.

The rear field placement, will give some extra tactile feels, sometime refer to chest slam, while it is not really the same.
To learn more about these, here's another link;
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...ual-guide.html


Ray
I may not have the best setup or room, but I had the same room with a JBL in the same spot (next to the front left speaker) as the PB2k and I remember it being really loud at like 75% gain. I was using an old entry level pioneer receiver at the time also. I feel like if I placed the JBL in the rear back corner like I was suppose to, it would have been even better.


I feel like I have really tried to compare apples to apples with the sub's placement and found very different results.


The Yamaha receiver set the Parametric EQ to flat...could that have anything to do with it. I think the other options were "Through" "Natural" and something else.

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post #14 of 48 Old 09-22-2018, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWarrior97 View Post
Used an spl meter on my phone and the back two corners had the loudest decibels in the room. Placed the sub there and it was louder, just not what I was expecting for full gain on the subwoofer and $630 dollars.
I’m sorry mate but, in realistic terms even an upgrade to the HSU 3.5 or PSA V1511 won’t be a huge upgrade.

We seem to be in similar positions aside from the opening. My room is 9x15x7.5 so your room being larger you’ll definitely need more woofage. I started out with a Polk PSW505 and have since moved up to (4) subs atm..an 18” DIY at 10^3 tuned to 19Hz, a 15 DIY at 4^3 tuned to 22Hz (very similar to the HSU 3.5 but with more output), and two ID subs (Internet direct) [like SVS, HSU, PSA, etc etc] being 12” & 10” tuned to 16Hz and 18Hz...all with 4,200 watts. And I still want MORE

IMO if you want the most bass you can get at a reasonable price I’d look into DIY subs..preferably a couple mini Marty’s with Ultimax 18’s powered by an NX6000dsp/iNUKE 6000dsp.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...tysub-faq.html

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...ifier-with-dsp

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...-coil--295-518

Now trust me I understand DIY looks scary but, it’s nothing more than gluing 6 pieces of wood together, connecting 2 wires, and putting the drivers in. I finished both of my subs in a weekend for the 18” and one afternoon for the 15”.

You could get your next room shaking at 20Hz with two mini Marty UM18’s. It’d only cost $450 for the amp, $100 for the wood, & $600 for the drivers. I know, that’s ~$1200 but, after buying your first amplifier any sub you build after that gets muchhhh cheaper compared to what you’d get from a retailer. You could add two more after this for $650 and be making your neighbors think they have subs in their house.

Of course there’s plenty of people too scared or just not ready to go down that rabbit hole and that’s fine too. If you feel like it’d be too much then I’d suggest holding out for the time being, save up some more money, and get an 18” at minimum with the expectation to add an identical one down the road.

If you try these lesser subs and slowly work your way up you’ll find that you’ve spent $3,000 or more upgrading from lesser and lesser subs and not only wasting money, also losing money because you’ll be lucky to get 60% back of what you paid when you’re looking to sell them.

A few suggestions

Monoprice Monolith 15
Rythmik FV15HP
PSA V1511
PSA V1811
Rythmik FV18
JTR Cap 1400
JTR Cap 2400
Rythmik FV25HP
PSA V3611


Good luck my friend. Jump in the rabbit hole with us at AVS


Also in the meantime you can try upping your crossovers to ~120Hz to get a little more midbass or putting the PB2K directly behind your seating with the driver and port firing directly into your back.


Also one important note with Yamaha’s..make sure under
options -> Subwoofer/Bass -> Sub trim -> +6
Options -> Subwoofer/Bass -> Extra Bass -> OFF
Options -> Tone control -> Bass -> +6
On screen -> setup -> manual setup -> speaker levels -> Subwoofer trim -> (anywhere from 0.0 to -8dB) make sure this is at least at 0.0. You never want it in the positives. You can read a more detailed explanation of what each option does here

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...-tweaking.html

Also keep your EQ to “flat”
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| Sub | Trilithon | Stonehenge Variant Subwoofer - 18” - 9ft³ - 19Hz | Marty | Microcube 390HO - 22Hz | Monolith THX Ultra 12 | Monolith THX Select 10 |
| Spkrs | HSU CCB8 x3 | SVS Prime Elevation x2 | Polk S15 |

Last edited by DaBateman; 09-22-2018 at 09:45 PM.
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post #15 of 48 Old 09-22-2018, 10:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBateman View Post
I’m sorry mate but, in realistic terms even an upgrade to the HSU 3.5 or PSA V1511 won’t be a huge upgrade.

We seem to be in similar positions aside from the opening. My room is 9x15x7.5 so your room being larger you’ll definitely need more woofage. I started out with a Polk PSW505 and have since moved up to (4) subs atm..an 18” DIY at 10^3 tuned to 19Hz, a 15 DIY at 4^3 tuned to 22Hz (very similar to the HSU 3.5 but with more output), and two ID subs (Internet direct) [like SVS, HSU, PSA, etc etc] being 12” & 10” tuned to 16Hz and 18Hz...all with 4,200 watts. And I still want MORE

IMO if you want the most bass you can get at a reasonable price I’d look into DIY subs..preferably a couple mini Marty’s with Ultimax 18’s powered by an NX6000dsp/iNUKE 6000dsp.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...tysub-faq.html

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...ifier-with-dsp

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...-coil--295-518

Now trust me I understand DIY looks scary but, it’s nothing more than gluing 6 pieces of wood together, connecting 2 wires, and putting the drivers in. I finished both of my subs in a weekend for the 18” and one afternoon for the 15”.

You could get your next room shaking at 20Hz with two mini Marty UM18’s. It’d only cost $450 for the amp, $100 for the wood, & $600 for the drivers. I know, that’s ~$1200 but, after buying your first amplifier any sub you build after that gets muchhhh cheaper compared to what you’d get from a retailer. You could add two more after this for $650 and be making your neighbors think they have subs in their house.

Of course there’s plenty of people too scared or just not ready to go down that rabbit hole and that’s fine too. If you feel like it’d be too much then I’d suggest holding out for the time being, save up some more money, and get an 18” at minimum with the expectation to add an identical one down the road.

If you try these lesser subs and slowly work your way up you’ll find that you’ve spent $3,000 or more upgrading from lesser and lesser subs and not only wasting money, also losing money because you’ll be lucky to get 60% back of what you paid when you’re looking to sell them.

A few suggestions

Monoprice Monolith 15
Rythmik FV15HP
PSA V1511
PSA V1811
Rythmik FV18
JTR Cap 1400
JTR Cap 2400
Rythmik FV25HP
PSA V3611


Good luck my friend. Jump in the rabbit hole with us at AVS


Also in the meantime you can try upping your crossovers to ~120Hz to get a little more midbass or putting the PB2K directly behind your seating with the driver and port firing directly into your back.


Also one important note with Yamaha’s..make sure under
options -> Subwoofer/Bass -> Sub trim -> +6
Options -> Subwoofer/Bass -> Extra Bass -> OFF
Options -> Tone control -> Bass -> +6
On screen -> setup -> manual setup -> speaker levels -> Subwoofer trim -> (anywhere from 0.0 to -8dB) make sure this is at least at 0.0. You never want it in the positives. You can read a more detailed explanation of what each option does here

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...-tweaking.html

Also keep your EQ to “flat”

I have serious thought about it. I do woodworking, wired my house, built computers, soldered xlr cables so I am sure it would be no big deal.

Some questions
Why not a plate amp instead of an external amp?
I could put the parts together, no problem, but does it need to be calibrated or equalized, or what not. that's what worries me. It can't be just plug and play could it? Do I have to do graphs and fine tune where maybe the SVS already did that with theirs?

Yamaha Aventage 3070
Sony XBR-55x850b
PS4 Pro
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post #16 of 48 Old 09-23-2018, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWarrior97 View Post
I have serious thought about it. I do woodworking, wired my house, built computers, soldered xlr cables so I am sure it would be no big deal.

Some questions
Why not a plate amp instead of an external amp?
I could put the parts together, no problem, but does it need to be calibrated or equalized, or what not. that's what worries me. It can't be just plug and play could it? Do I have to do graphs and fine tune where maybe the SVS already did that with theirs?
If you have woodworking skills it’ll be a breeze but you do raise a fair point. You’ll spend most of your time setting them up properly which can be a little more challenging rather than just flopping down two ID subs and calling it a day but, it’s a very fun process for me and lots of others..I enjoy measuring my subs response, moving them around, seeing if I can squeeze out an extra dB or two.

Plate amps usually do not offer the same performance vs dollar ratio as rack amps imo unless you are spending ~$1000 on a SpeakerPower plate amp as they are absolutely the top tier plate amps.

One thing you absolutely need is some sort of DSP. You need a limiter to keep your drivers from bottoming out, you need a high pass filter from keeping the cone from over excursion, you need PEQ bands for flattening out the frequency response.

Now the reason I suggested the Behringer NX/iNUKE series (same amp, different chassis; NX is much more aesthetically pleasing) is because for $50 more you can get the DSP version of the amp which again is absolutely necessary. Compared to the $200 it’d cost to buy a miniDSP 2x4 HD it’s much cheaper to get a good amp with DSP.

IMO the further you go down the rabbit hole you definitely want to have a calibrated mic and REW (Room EQ Wizard) that way you can see how your room interacts with all speakers and subs and how to fix those issues via placement or EQ. You’d be surprised how much moving a speaker or seating a couple inches will make such a huge improvement or counter action negatively.

You can suffice spending $20 on this mic and downloading REW for free although you really should spend ~$100 on the UMIK1.

https://www.amazon.com/Dayton-Audio-.../dp/B00ADR2B84

https://www.roomeqwizard.com/

https://www.amazon.com/miniDSP-UMIK-.../dp/B00N4Q25R8

Head over to the DIY section. There’s plenty of proven designs and you can get a better idea of what’s needed. You could make a thread and if you need a specific size box etc someone will model one for you. Performance vs dollar you’re not gonna find it buying retail.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/

| Eqmt | Vizio 4K M50-E1 | Yamaha RX-V681 | iNUKE 3kdsp x2 | Emotiva BasX A-100 | miniDSP UMIK-1 | Monolith M1060 | Monolith USB DAC |
| Sub | Trilithon | Stonehenge Variant Subwoofer - 18” - 9ft³ - 19Hz | Marty | Microcube 390HO - 22Hz | Monolith THX Ultra 12 | Monolith THX Select 10 |
| Spkrs | HSU CCB8 x3 | SVS Prime Elevation x2 | Polk S15 |
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post #17 of 48 Old 09-23-2018, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
TheWarrior97

You may also want to try this;
III-C: Cascading Crossovers:
This will increase a little those mid bass frequcies, where the punch you are refering to, are.


Ray

Interesting, is there a dedicated topic regarding this?
I doubt that higher order slope "increases" midbass, but rather that we are looking at phase mismatch somewhere above crossover region between sub and mains (or center), which can be reason enough to muddy things up, especially if LF content has some upper harmonics in that region.


As for the OP's chest slam problem, easiest way is to increase SPL in dedicated frequency area, e.g. via EQ or other means, if gear is capable of handling it.
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post #18 of 48 Old 09-23-2018, 10:37 AM
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Seeing you liked the JBL you had, is replacing it or repairing the amp in it an option? Would cost far less and you already know you liked it.
Another cost effective option for the chest slam bass you are looking for is here. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...gn-thread.html
The V.B.S.S sounds like just what you are looking for. I know it's a bunch or reading but it's all worth it.

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post #19 of 48 Old 09-23-2018, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falonious View Post
Seeing you liked the JBL you had, is replacing it or repairing the amp in it an option? Would cost far less and you already know you liked it.
Another cost effective option for the chest slam bass you are looking for is here. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...gn-thread.html
The V.B.S.S sounds like just what you are looking for. I know it's a bunch or reading but it's all worth it.
More than likely that’s just a perception of going from a boomy and muddy sub to something with a flat FR.
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post #20 of 48 Old 09-23-2018, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falonious View Post
Seeing you liked the JBL you had, is replacing it or repairing the amp in it an option? Would cost far less and you already know you liked it.
Another cost effective option for the chest slam bass you are looking for is here. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...gn-thread.html
The V.B.S.S sounds like just what you are looking for. I know it's a bunch or reading but it's all worth it.
You know, I tried really really hard to fix it. It kept blowing fuses the minute I flipped the on switch. I thought maybe one of the capacitors was swollen, But I couldn't find the exact capacitor they used and the company said they didn't have anymore, I even searched Japan (visited inlaws) but then I just f'ed it up trying to pull the old ones off with that glue they used. So I decided to throw the whole thing away. A few months later when I dug a little deeper in the subwoofer world, I realized I could have just gotten a new amp plate. But, its in a dump somewhere with a perfectly good 12" driver and decent box.

The repair guys also said it would cost way more than I paid to fix it, so I thought I would "upgrade"...just doesn't feel like i did except for the awesome customer service and great warranty with the SVS.

I think I am going to return it and dive into the DIY world unless I can get a Klipsch 115 for under $500.

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post #21 of 48 Old 09-23-2018, 01:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DaBateman View Post
More than likely that’s just a perception of going from a boomy and muddy sub to something with a flat FR.
Could be, I am not really an audiophile....yet....and i do have hearing loss, but my wife keeps saying, "It doesn't sound as loud as the other one, and you paid way more??" so I'm not the only one that feels like somethings different. My wife also says I don't have refined taste buds....maybe she's right and this is just another example! LOL

How can I change the reciever or SVS sub to be less flat and more boomy and muddy if that's the difference?

So this DIY world, have you personally been able to get your subs to sound tight, lowest possible frequencies, lots of headroom, and all that other jazz SVS says they shoot for? Will people be able to walk me through this without annoying them? Personally, I would likely just tune it once, maybe twice, and be just fine with it until maybe I move someday. I don't expect I will be trying to get the lowest possible frequency once a month. I don't mind getting the mic and the REW software either.

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post #22 of 48 Old 09-23-2018, 01:58 PM
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Great suggestions soo far.

I would like to add IMHO chest punch and house shake are 2 different effects.....


The super lows shake the house the midbass punches the chest.


The larger the cone the easier this is to accomplish no matter which one you desire or both.


Depending on the location of this system could influence what you are even able to use or want...…...when I finally upgraded to 2 entry level 18`s these 2 distinct differences became clear and which ones were more compatable with my current location and house.



Pro audio style subs can provide a bunch of punch for cheap, but will not provide ULF that shakes the room.


I found it difficult to grasp the differences in sub 30hz house shaking as being seperate from the 30 to 70hz tactile bass and the 50-120hz chest punch bass.


When I built the 18`s this became more clear as lower powered smaller driver subs just do not make enough of any of it to really grasp the differences.....I knew I wanted super lows and I knew I liked chest punch and I knew I liked tactile shaking...….but knowing and understanding is different.



To make a long story short you need to decide what you like....what you can actually use and my suggestion is to use the largest driver you can as it is way easier to dial back than to max out...not only will it sound better, it will last longer in most cases.



30 is hz and up is fairly cheap and easy and is about all you are getting with the current list of subs you have mentioned in any meaningful/usable quantity...……..unless you have placed them nearfield, like a inch behind where you sit as close as possible to your backside.


Even larger mid grade subs lose a lot with distance when it comes to feeling the bass...……..my 18`s 9 feet away compared to directly behind my seats are night and day in difference.


I highly recommend the lows for movies sub 30 hz material...…..approx. pricing right now is in the 300 to 400 range for a decent 18 inch woofer and approx. 200 bucks for a decent amp...….add in whatever other costs such as box and wire etc and it can be pulled off for around 500-600 bucks.


You can go low end entry level and get in much cheaper if you focus on 30hz and above if money is a issue and maybe get it down to 300-400 and still be usable, but unless you are just flat broke, then it is well worth spending the extra 200-300 bucks to get much better performer.



There are plenty of people who can recommend the current offerings available in the DIY section of the forum to suit whatever direction you go...….
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Link to Stereo Integrity SI HT 18 sub build......https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...-pedestal.html
Speakers and subs for sale...https://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-au...kers-subs.html
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post #23 of 48 Old 09-23-2018, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWarrior97 View Post
Could be, I am not really an audiophile....yet....and i do have hearing loss, but my wife keeps saying, "It doesn't sound as loud as the other one, and you paid way more??" so I'm not the only one that feels like somethings different. My wife also says I don't have refined taste buds....maybe she's right and this is just another example! LOL

How can I change the reciever or SVS sub to be less flat and more boomy and muddy if that's the difference?

So this DIY world, have you personally been able to get your subs to sound tight, lowest possible frequencies, lots of headroom, and all that other jazz SVS says they shoot for? Will people be able to walk me through this without annoying them? Personally, I would likely just tune it once, maybe twice, and be just fine with it until maybe I move someday. I don't expect I will be trying to get the lowest possible frequency once a month. I don't mind getting the mic and the REW software either.
You have to go to menu -> manual setup -> Parametric EQ -> Manual -> PEQ data copy -> Flat

Then once you have copied the flat EQ settings go under the manual EQ to the subs EQ and boost

24.8Hz 2dB with a Q of 1.0
49.6Hz 3dB with a Q of 1.5
62.5Hz 4dB with a Q of 0.5
99.2Hz 2.5dB with a Q of 1.0

That should resemble more of what your JBL sounded like.

Also if you haven’t make sure to do as I explained earlier under options.

Options -> Subwoofer/Bass -> Sub trim -> +6dB
Options -> Subwoofer/Bass -> Extra Bass -> OFF (this kills ULF)
Options-> Tone controls -> Bass -> +3-6dB


And yes I have got a much better bass response than what I originally had with just ID subs. I have usable bass down to 7Hz. I could shake dishes in my kitchen from the other side of the house if I turned it up enough. People are very helpful on the DIY subforum. Everyone has to start somewhere so don’t worry about that. I had an LG soundbar at the start of this year and look how far I’ve came since then.

Here’s my response with 4 subs each DIY and my fronts.






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Last edited by DaBateman; 09-23-2018 at 02:05 PM.
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post #24 of 48 Old 09-23-2018, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Interesting, is there a dedicated topic regarding this?
I doubt that higher order slope "increases" midbass, but rather that we are looking at phase mismatch somewhere above crossover region between sub and mains (or center), which can be reason enough to muddy things up, especially if LF content has some upper harmonics in that region.


As for the OP's chest slam problem, easiest way is to increase SPL in dedicated frequency area, e.g. via EQ or other means, if gear is capable of handling it.

The link, that I have provided is part of this guide with many discussions;
Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

Many of those who tried-it, very much the results, and of course a very few don't.

And like you said, more likely a phase problem, if a phase problem, increasing the SPL will not help much either, in my opinion.


Ray

Last edited by darthray; 09-23-2018 at 04:32 PM.
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post #25 of 48 Old 09-23-2018, 07:46 PM
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Here’s another comparison someone wrote on the DIY subforum comparing his (2) PSA V1500’s to some DIY’s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucks0 View Post
Thanks to @BryceDH , I finally got to experience two of the most popular DIY subs on the forums. His setup including a full marty and 2 nearfield VBSS subs was pure insanity. My son who is a real bass head now wants to know when we are going to build subs for our basement. I agree that our system sounds rather weak in comparison.

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| Spkrs | HSU CCB8 x3 | SVS Prime Elevation x2 | Polk S15 |
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post #26 of 48 Old 09-23-2018, 08:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBateman View Post
More than likely that’s just a perception of going from a boomy and muddy sub to something with a flat FR.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBateman View Post
You have to go to menu -> manual setup -> Parametric EQ -> Manual -> PEQ data copy -> Flat

Then once you have copied the flat EQ settings go under the manual EQ to the subs EQ and boost

24.8Hz 2dB with a Q of 1.0
49.6Hz 3dB with a Q of 1.5
62.5Hz 4dB with a Q of 0.5
99.2Hz 2.5dB with a Q of 1.0

That should resemble more of what your JBL sounded like.

Also if you haven’t make sure to do as I explained earlier under options.

Options -> Subwoofer/Bass -> Sub trim -> +6dB
Options -> Subwoofer/Bass -> Extra Bass -> OFF (this kills ULF)
Options-> Tone controls -> Bass -> +3-6dB


And yes I have got a much better bass response than what I originally had with just ID subs. I have usable bass down to 7Hz. I could shake dishes in my kitchen from the other side of the house if I turned it up enough. People are very helpful on the DIY subforum. Everyone has to start somewhere so don’t worry about that. I had an LG soundbar at the start of this year and look how far I’ve came since then.

Here’s my response with 4 subs each DIY and my fronts.






I tried the setting you described first, increasing the sub trim to 6 and leaving the extra bass off and increasing the bass in tone control to 6, not much of a difference.

...........HOWEVER, you hit the nail on the head with that muddy flat comment. I set the manual eq as you stated, turned the sub trim and tone control back to normal and THAT was what I was looking for! Even my wife said that's what she remembered!! We turned it back to flat eq and the experience was completely different for us, we felt like we were watching a movie rather than being in the movie. Is this wrong to want to feel the movie?

So many questions.
So what does this mean and where do I go from here? Would keeping that setting for the SVS ruin the sub? Is this muddy/boomy reference wrong to have? Does it mean I can't distinguish an explosion from a dinosaur stepping on the ground if I keep this setting? I would like accurate sound...whatever that sounds like, but I really want that boomy feeling like being in the actual movie....how can I get both? 18"?? Should I take my foot out of the rabbit hole, or still jump in?
Is this boomy feeling have something to do with tightness or headroom or what?

Thanks again DaBateman for helping me figure out MY problem, now onto solving it.

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post #27 of 48 Old 09-23-2018, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
The link, that I have provided is part of this guide with many discussions;
Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

Many of those who tried-it, very much the results, and of course a very few don't.

And like you said, more likely a phase problem, if a phase problem, increasing the SPL will not help much either, in my opinion.


Ray
Thanks for this, I read through it a few weeks ago, the best I could. If I DIY, I'll probably need to read it again and try to really understand it all.

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post #28 of 48 Old 09-23-2018, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
Great suggestions soo far.

I would like to add IMHO chest punch and house shake are 2 different effects.....


The super lows shake the house the midbass punches the chest.


The larger the cone the easier this is to accomplish no matter which one you desire or both.


Depending on the location of this system could influence what you are even able to use or want...…...when I finally upgraded to 2 entry level 18`s these 2 distinct differences became clear and which ones were more compatable with my current location and house.



Pro audio style subs can provide a bunch of punch for cheap, but will not provide ULF that shakes the room.


I found it difficult to grasp the differences in sub 30hz house shaking as being seperate from the 30 to 70hz tactile bass and the 50-120hz chest punch bass.


When I built the 18`s this became more clear as lower powered smaller driver subs just do not make enough of any of it to really grasp the differences.....I knew I wanted super lows and I knew I liked chest punch and I knew I liked tactile shaking...….but knowing and understanding is different.



To make a long story short you need to decide what you like....what you can actually use and my suggestion is to use the largest driver you can as it is way easier to dial back than to max out...not only will it sound better, it will last longer in most cases.



30 is hz and up is fairly cheap and easy and is about all you are getting with the current list of subs you have mentioned in any meaningful/usable quantity...……..unless you have placed them nearfield, like a inch behind where you sit as close as possible to your backside.


Even larger mid grade subs lose a lot with distance when it comes to feeling the bass...……..my 18`s 9 feet away compared to directly behind my seats are night and day in difference.


I highly recommend the lows for movies sub 30 hz material...…..approx. pricing right now is in the 300 to 400 range for a decent 18 inch woofer and approx. 200 bucks for a decent amp...….add in whatever other costs such as box and wire etc and it can be pulled off for around 500-600 bucks.


You can go low end entry level and get in much cheaper if you focus on 30hz and above if money is a issue and maybe get it down to 300-400 and still be usable, but unless you are just flat broke, then it is well worth spending the extra 200-300 bucks to get much better performer.



There are plenty of people who can recommend the current offerings available in the DIY section of the forum to suit whatever direction you go...….
You are probably right, I was looking for house shake, I just thought chest punch was the audiophile language for it. Noobies! I'll look more into these two conditions and see which way I would like to go.

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post #29 of 48 Old 09-23-2018, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBateman View Post
Here’s another comparison someone wrote on the DIY subforum comparing his (2) PSA V1500’s to some DIY’s.
Stop teasing me down the hole!! LOL

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post #30 of 48 Old 09-23-2018, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
As for the OP's chest slam problem, easiest way is to increase SPL in dedicated frequency area, e.g. via EQ or other means, if gear is capable of handling it.
The 'other means' are the ones that matter; that is, more driver surface area and more excursion.
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