4 Identical corner subs - Recommendations?? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 74Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 68 Old 10-09-2018, 12:31 PM
Advanced Member
 
chiptouz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lee's Summit, MO - Suburb of KC
Posts: 769
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 280 Post(s)
Liked: 346
4 Identical corner subs - Recommendations??

Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post
That doesn't look accurate. I would compare direct here using Audioholics CEA-2010 test numbers. No numbers for 1 port open on Monolith but you can see the 2 port open comparisons:

https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...n-10-2-18.xlsx


Attached are pics from Audioholics tests. The first you want to pay attention to the second column, that is two ports open on the 15h mk2. The second pic look at the column for two ports open for the m15. The 15h mk2 has better output the higher you go in the sub 100hz freq levels. They are basically the same 25hz and lower. Above the HSU 15h mk2 walks away. Both are at 2m. I might have combined 1m and 2m in the graph I posted prior.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My Movie Library - and still growing!
Family Room: Sony XBR-85x900F + Denon x6500h + Oppo 203, Speakers: LCR: DIYSG Elusive 1099's, S & RH: Polk TC60i, FH: Volt10v2's, Sub: 2x LTD02 Designed UM18-22 Subs w/Nx6000d
Considering: DIYSG Volt8v2 for Surround
chiptouz is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 68 Old 10-10-2018, 06:34 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jamiebosco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,365
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 846 Post(s)
Liked: 2117
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiptouz View Post
.


I might have combined 1m and 2m in the graph I posted prior.

I think you almost certainly did






IMHO,I think a LOT of people end up using the variable tune subs in "extended mode" (especially if you end up with four of them!) - so comparing the VTF-15Hmk2's 1 port numbers against the Mono15's 2 port numbers, the M15 does have a slight advantage down low


VTF15mk2 1 Port open
16hz @ 102.5dB
20 @ 107.1
25 @ 110.6
31 @ 114.5
40 @ 117.1
50 @ 117.6
63 @ 116.9
80 @ 116.8


Mono15 2 Ports open
16 @ 105.2
20 @ 109.3
25 @ 112.6
31 @ 115.2
40 @ 116.5
50 @ 116.4
63 @ 115.8
80 @ 115.5


The HSU does have an advantage over the M15 @ 40hz and above, but with 4x of either sub, they would both be capable of WAY beyond reference level in that range (easily in the 125-130dB range)


Either would be a great choice, as would the previously mentioned Seaton JS-12x4 , or Rythmik FV15HP x 4.


Personally, I'd go for 2 x powered Seaton F18's, and then just add slave units to them as finances allow.
jjackkrash likes this.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
TV: Panasonic P65ST60 AVR: Denon X4000 Speakers: PSA MTM-210C (Centre), PSA MTM-210 (Left & Right), PSA MT-110 (Surrounds) Subwoofers: Dual Seaton SubMersives
jamiebosco is offline  
post #33 of 68 Old 10-10-2018, 08:02 AM
Advanced Member
 
chiptouz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lee's Summit, MO - Suburb of KC
Posts: 769
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 280 Post(s)
Liked: 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
I think you almost certainly did






IMHO,I think a LOT of people end up using the variable tune subs in "extended mode" (especially if you end up with four of them!) - so comparing the VTF-15Hmk2's 1 port numbers against the Mono15's 2 port numbers, the M15 does have a slight advantage down low


VTF15mk2 1 Port open
16hz @ 102.5dB
20 @ 107.1
25 @ 110.6
31 @ 114.5
40 @ 117.1
50 @ 117.6
63 @ 116.9
80 @ 116.8


Mono15 2 Ports open
16 @ 105.2
20 @ 109.3
25 @ 112.6
31 @ 115.2
40 @ 116.5
50 @ 116.4
63 @ 115.8
80 @ 115.5


The HSU does have an advantage over the M15 @ 40hz and above, but with 4x of either sub, they would both be capable of WAY beyond reference level in that range (easily in the 125-130dB range)


Either would be a great choice, as would the previously mentioned Seaton JS-12x4 , or Rythmik FV15HP x 4.


Personally, I'd go for 2 x powered Seaton F18's, and then just add slave units to them as finances allow.


Unfortunately I think you misunderstood my
post. I didn’t use one port vs two port in my graph I used 1 meter measurements for the hsu and 2m measurements for the monolith sub. In my comparison above I most certainly used two ports open on both subs. In the pics above you can compare one port to one port and two to two since the reviews had both in their measurements.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My Movie Library - and still growing!
Family Room: Sony XBR-85x900F + Denon x6500h + Oppo 203, Speakers: LCR: DIYSG Elusive 1099's, S & RH: Polk TC60i, FH: Volt10v2's, Sub: 2x LTD02 Designed UM18-22 Subs w/Nx6000d
Considering: DIYSG Volt8v2 for Surround
chiptouz is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #34 of 68 Old 10-10-2018, 08:10 AM
Advanced Member
 
chiptouz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lee's Summit, MO - Suburb of KC
Posts: 769
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 280 Post(s)
Liked: 346
My main purpose of my response was to add HSU into the mix, which I am happy with mine. I know that the OP stated he had a $5k budget, but he doesn't have to spend all $5k. If he can save $1k going with HSU he can put that somewhere else into his design. Too bad he didn't want to DIY he could have saved himself $3k at least and had much better subs.

Good luck with the build. I always enjoy this part of the solution determination process. Hours and hours of research and going back and forth. But when you get to that final decision it feels amazing.

Chip
nonstopdoc1 likes this.

My Movie Library - and still growing!
Family Room: Sony XBR-85x900F + Denon x6500h + Oppo 203, Speakers: LCR: DIYSG Elusive 1099's, S & RH: Polk TC60i, FH: Volt10v2's, Sub: 2x LTD02 Designed UM18-22 Subs w/Nx6000d
Considering: DIYSG Volt8v2 for Surround
chiptouz is offline  
post #35 of 68 Old 10-10-2018, 10:52 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jamiebosco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,365
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 846 Post(s)
Liked: 2117
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiptouz View Post
Unfortunately I think you misunderstood my
post. I didn’t use one port vs two port in my graph I used 1 meter measurements for the hsu and 2m measurements for the monolith sub. In my comparison above I most certainly used two ports open on both subs. In the pics above you can compare one port to one port and two to two since the reviews had both in their measurements.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I didn't misunderstand your post.


You wrote.....
Quote:
I might have combined 1m and 2m in the graph I posted prior.
... and I wrote
Quote:
I think you almost certainly did
(mix 1m & 2m measurements in the same graph) as there's no way a VTF15 is doing 111dB @ 16hz.




And the Mono15 has 3 ports, so blocking 1 port and leaving 2 ports open on the Mono 15 is the extended tuning mode, which would be closest in tuning to the VTF15 with 1 port blocked and 1 port left open


The Mono15 in 3 port open config (all ports open, max output mode) would be most similar in tuning to the VTF15 in 2 port open config (again , all ports open , max output)


And I agree - the HSU's are a good option if $$$ need to be saved

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
TV: Panasonic P65ST60 AVR: Denon X4000 Speakers: PSA MTM-210C (Centre), PSA MTM-210 (Left & Right), PSA MT-110 (Surrounds) Subwoofers: Dual Seaton SubMersives
jamiebosco is offline  
post #36 of 68 Old 10-10-2018, 11:17 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
ack_bk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New England
Posts: 11,367
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1345 Post(s)
Liked: 1506
Yes in extended mode the Monolith 15 would add an additional 2dbs. I would agree that down low the Monolith would have the advantage and in the higher ranges the Hsu would. As having owned both the Hsu VTF-15H and Monolith 15 what gets lost in all these charts is the sound signature. The Monolith has a more linear and clean/tight sound to it. Not that the Hsu sounds bad or muddy, but their are noticeable sonic differences. If you are someone who prefers more of a tighter, more linear/accurate sound the Monolith is probably the better choice. The Hsu, especially in mid range, had more tactile feel but was not as strong down low.

Someone new to this level of subwoofer would be very happy with either I am sure.
jamiebosco likes this.
ack_bk is offline  
post #37 of 68 Old 10-10-2018, 01:04 PM
Advanced Member
 
WLDock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Indiana
Posts: 528
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 189 Post(s)
Liked: 215
At $849 + $173 S&H ($4088 shipped total) for the HSU VTF15H mkII it seems like the most logical and cheapest way to go for a non bass fanatic. With four of them and the ability to tune the ports or even seal both you will be able to get the sound that you are after. You will have more than enough bass coverage given...from your own words: "I am not a 'basshead' and not looking for room shaking output. My goal is to have more than adequate, non-fatiguing, tight and accurate bass."


However, If this is a dedicated room and you are in the framing stages, why is DIY not an option? Given that you are not looking for ULTIMATE output, four sealed UM-18's should work well for you in contrast to 4-6 refrigerator sized ported subs that most here on AVS would recommend. The four 18's would still meet all of your goals in your room. Here is a guy with about the same size room: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...-into-diy.html

The Dayton UM-18 + enclosure bundle is $428.88 (4x = $1715.52) plus two Behringer NX3000D amps at $329 each (2x = $658) will put you at $2373.52 Add in the extras, hardware, paint, glue, polyfill, wire, etc. and you will come out much cheaper. If you can't do it, pay someone to put them together. Heck, I'm 4.5 hrs from you and will put them together for you and save you $1000+!

HDTV - Sharp AQUOS LC-70LE600U 70" | AVR- Anthem MRX 300 | Media Player - Fire TV Box 2nd Gen | Blu-Ray/Media/Gaming - PS3-320GB / Xbox One
Speakers - Main - Boston Acoustics Lynnfield VR965 | Center - Boston Acoustics Lynnfield VR920 | Rear - Artison Portrait LRS
| Sub - DIY Stereo Integrity HT 15 | Sub Amp - O Audio BASH 500

Last edited by WLDock; 10-10-2018 at 01:31 PM.
WLDock is offline  
post #38 of 68 Old 10-10-2018, 01:30 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 221
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 128 Post(s)
Liked: 125
If simple DIY was an option to maximize the floorspace, 4x 18" Sonotube subs seem like would be killer option. The tubes are like $70 so should be in around ~$2000 all in.
Tube is easier to make look 'decent' as just go to local craft store and pick out fabric you like and glue the crap on. Plenty of people in DIY forum that could point in direction of how-to if was an option.
JNayAV is offline  
post #39 of 68 Old 10-11-2018, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
nonstopdoc1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 959
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 680 Post(s)
Liked: 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
I think you almost certainly did



Personally, I'd go for 2 x powered Seaton F18's, and then just add slave units to them as finances allow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Rather than limiting the width and depth and getting 4 12" or 15" inch subs, you might want to consider getting 2 or 3 18" powerhouses that are only 3 inches wider and/or deeper. You are in the ballpark of your $5000 budget but you can have solid output down to low teens Hz rather than high teens Hz.
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
I would Start with a pair of 18's.

How does a similar sized sealed 18" compares to ported 15"?
How much output do you lose going from a 15" ported (FV15HP/M15) to a 18" sealed (F18)?

My Build Thread
HT - Seymour Centerstage XD 2.39:1 133" W| JVC X790R | Denon AVR | Nord NC500 | ATI AT528NC | Procella P8/P5V | Revel C763L | Monolith 12" x4
Living Room - LG OLED 65" | Yamaha 2060 | Monolith 3x200 | KEF Q900 L/R | Paradigm Millenia 20 CC | Polk Surrounds | Rythmik FV15HP x2
nonstopdoc1 is offline  
post #40 of 68 Old 10-11-2018, 07:22 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 221
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 128 Post(s)
Liked: 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by nonstopdoc1 View Post
How does a similar sized sealed 18" compares to ported 15"?
How much output do you lose going from a 15" ported (FV15HP/M15) to a 18" sealed (F18)?
Just looking at Rythmic since will depend on brand and power differences:
60+ hz - equal
15-60 hz - ported would have ~3-6 db advantage depend on port plug arrangement
<15 - sealed equal with increasing db advantage as ported rolls off

Factor difficult to capture would be any room gain that the sealed sub would get.

In above case, I'd save the money and get the ported 15". Likely wouldn't be able to hear/feel the <15 at those dbs anyways.
JNayAV is offline  
post #41 of 68 Old 10-11-2018, 07:54 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
ack_bk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New England
Posts: 11,367
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1345 Post(s)
Liked: 1506
I have always found ported subs to just have more tactile response, regardless of room. That said if you have a smaller room and are not chasing bass sealed subs can definitely do the job, especially four of them. Sealed for me, is more about form factor. They are smaller and usually more attractive but if form factor is not a concern go ported. I have owned both and both can work well in the right room.
ack_bk is offline  
post #42 of 68 Old 10-11-2018, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
nonstopdoc1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 959
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 680 Post(s)
Liked: 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by JNayAV View Post
Just looking at Rythmic since will depend on brand and power differences:
60+ hz - equal
15-60 hz - ported would have ~3-6 db advantage depend on port plug arrangement
<15 - sealed equal with increasing db advantage as ported rolls off

Factor difficult to capture would be any room gain that the sealed sub would get.

In above case, I'd save the money and get the ported 15". Likely wouldn't be able to hear/feel the <15 at those dbs anyways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post
I have always found ported subs to just have more tactile response, regardless of room. That said if you have a smaller room and are not chasing bass sealed subs can definitely do the job, especially four of them. Sealed for me, is more about form factor. They are smaller and usually more attractive but if form factor is not a concern go ported. I have owned both and both can work well in the right room.

I am also thinking on the same line. I am divided between ported 15" vs Sealed 18" like F18s (2 Master-Slave combos) are $2.5K (50%) more than 4 x 15" ported. F18 and S1811 wont fit in the space anyways. As there is no way to audition them, I am wondering if they are worth the extra. I am willing to start with 2 and get the other 2 few months down the line but the questions is whether they are that much better.

My Build Thread
HT - Seymour Centerstage XD 2.39:1 133" W| JVC X790R | Denon AVR | Nord NC500 | ATI AT528NC | Procella P8/P5V | Revel C763L | Monolith 12" x4
Living Room - LG OLED 65" | Yamaha 2060 | Monolith 3x200 | KEF Q900 L/R | Paradigm Millenia 20 CC | Polk Surrounds | Rythmik FV15HP x2
nonstopdoc1 is offline  
post #43 of 68 Old 10-11-2018, 11:23 AM
Advanced Member
 
WLDock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Indiana
Posts: 528
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 189 Post(s)
Liked: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by nonstopdoc1 View Post
How does a similar sized sealed 18" compares to ported 15"?
How much output do you lose going from a 15" ported (FV15HP/M15) to a 18" sealed (F18)?
Now that's an interesting turn in questioning from your statement: "I am not a 'basshead' and not looking for room shaking output. My goal is to have more than adequate, non-fatiguing, tight and accurate bass."

Based on that its VERY possible that four sealed 12" subs or maybe even four ported 10" subs in your 2525 cu. ct. room would satisfy you. Having said that, going up in size to four sealed or ported 13.5" to 18" subs is only going to make things better and offer as much head room as you would ever want.

Take a look at the data-bass.com comparison between a sealed Ultimax UM-18 vs. the ported FV15HP"

One Port


Two Ports


A Ported 15" or sealed 18" of this caliber times four would more than meet your needs.
nonstopdoc1 likes this.

HDTV - Sharp AQUOS LC-70LE600U 70" | AVR- Anthem MRX 300 | Media Player - Fire TV Box 2nd Gen | Blu-Ray/Media/Gaming - PS3-320GB / Xbox One
Speakers - Main - Boston Acoustics Lynnfield VR965 | Center - Boston Acoustics Lynnfield VR920 | Rear - Artison Portrait LRS
| Sub - DIY Stereo Integrity HT 15 | Sub Amp - O Audio BASH 500

Last edited by WLDock; 10-11-2018 at 11:50 AM.
WLDock is offline  
post #44 of 68 Old 10-11-2018, 11:35 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
ack_bk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New England
Posts: 11,367
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1345 Post(s)
Liked: 1506
The more I think about it the more I think you should start with a Seaton F18 and a slave. So dual 18's. I can't imagine you would be unhappy with that and it would leave the door open for more subs in the future. They not only perform really well for music and movies but they are aesthetically pleasing too. Based on your needs it should be a great balance for movies and music and I suspect they will be overkill for you but better to have overkill than underkill in this hobby.
nonstopdoc1 likes this.
ack_bk is offline  
post #45 of 68 Old 10-11-2018, 11:36 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Mark Seaton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 6,980
Mentioned: 223 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 930 Post(s)
Liked: 2593
Quote:
Originally Posted by nonstopdoc1 View Post
I am also thinking on the same line. I am divided between ported 15" vs Sealed 18" like F18s (2 Master-Slave combos) are $2.5K (50%) more than 4 x 15" ported. F18 and S1811 wont fit in the space anyways. As there is no way to audition them, I am wondering if they are worth the extra. I am willing to start with 2 and get the other 2 few months down the line but the questions is whether they are that much better.
I'm not sure if you were referring to the Rythmik sub or ours, but our F18 has a very similar footprint as the V1510 indicated in the drawing, but turned 90 degrees. If you have room under the left and right speakers for the 24.25" height of the F18, they could reduce the required depth of the screen wall by 4". With slave cable connections on the back and the fabric grill, the F18 would sit 19.75" from the wall as you have them in the rear. I think many are greatly underestimating how impressive 4 sealed 18s would sound in a ~ 24' x 14.5' x 7.5' room. Of course if you ever really got the itch to blur your vision, the F18+ & slave pairs still leave you the option to double the output again with up to 4 more total slave units as an end game without ever having to sell or replace a sub.

Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." Daniel H. Burnham
Mark Seaton is offline  
post #46 of 68 Old 10-11-2018, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
nonstopdoc1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 959
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 680 Post(s)
Liked: 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by WLDock View Post
Now that's an interesting turn in questioning from your statement: "I am not a 'basshead' and not looking for room shaking output. My goal is to have more than adequate, non-fatiguing, tight and accurate bass."


lol..... Thats the AVSforum effect!
WLDock likes this.

My Build Thread
HT - Seymour Centerstage XD 2.39:1 133" W| JVC X790R | Denon AVR | Nord NC500 | ATI AT528NC | Procella P8/P5V | Revel C763L | Monolith 12" x4
Living Room - LG OLED 65" | Yamaha 2060 | Monolith 3x200 | KEF Q900 L/R | Paradigm Millenia 20 CC | Polk Surrounds | Rythmik FV15HP x2
nonstopdoc1 is offline  
post #47 of 68 Old 10-11-2018, 12:59 PM
Advanced Member
 
WLDock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Indiana
Posts: 528
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 189 Post(s)
Liked: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by nonstopdoc1 View Post
lol..... Thats the AVSforum effect!
This place will have you dumping your max budget on the biggest and baddest subs out there. Then tell you, when you get more cash to add more down the line. So, yes....the rabbit hole effect is alive and well on this forum. This is the home of the HT bassheads!

HDTV - Sharp AQUOS LC-70LE600U 70" | AVR- Anthem MRX 300 | Media Player - Fire TV Box 2nd Gen | Blu-Ray/Media/Gaming - PS3-320GB / Xbox One
Speakers - Main - Boston Acoustics Lynnfield VR965 | Center - Boston Acoustics Lynnfield VR920 | Rear - Artison Portrait LRS
| Sub - DIY Stereo Integrity HT 15 | Sub Amp - O Audio BASH 500
WLDock is offline  
post #48 of 68 Old 10-11-2018, 01:31 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 221
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 128 Post(s)
Liked: 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
I'm not sure if you were referring to the Rythmik sub or ours, but our F18 has a very similar footprint as the V1510 indicated in the drawing, but turned 90 degrees. If you have room under the left and right speakers for the 24.25" height of the F18, they could reduce the required depth of the screen wall by 4". With slave cable connections on the back and the fabric grill, the F18 would sit 19.75" from the wall as you have them in the rear. I think many are greatly underestimating how impressive 4 sealed 18s would sound in a ~ 24' x 14.5' x 7.5' room. Of course if you ever really got the itch to blur your vision, the F18+ & slave pairs still leave you the option to double the output again with up to 4 more total slave units as an end game without ever having to sell or replace a sub.
For my comment was only referring to Rythmik. For their subs, I don't see point in jumping from their ported 15" to their sealed 18" (If the ported cabinet size isn't a concern)
Seaton F18 is a much more capable and powerful sub so that would certainly be a different consideration. I have no doubt that would be epicly impressive
nonstopdoc1 likes this.
JNayAV is offline  
post #49 of 68 Old 10-11-2018, 02:51 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jjackkrash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,276
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2223 Post(s)
Liked: 2332
I own both SubMersives and an HP15HP. They are both great subs. And while I have not pulled the mic out in a while or ran compression sweeps recently, I'd need to see some measurements to be convinced that the FV15HP has more in-room output throughout the range below crossover than the SubMersive, which from what I understand is pretty close to the F18 until the F18 pulls away a bit somewhere below 20Hz.
nonstopdoc1 likes this.
jjackkrash is offline  
post #50 of 68 Old 10-11-2018, 03:10 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jamiebosco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,365
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 846 Post(s)
Liked: 2117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
I think many are greatly underestimating how impressive 4 sealed 18s would sound in a ~ 24' x 14.5' x 7.5' room. Of course if you ever really got the itch to blur your vision, the F18+ & slave pairs still leave you the option to double the output again with up to 4 more total slave units as an end game without ever having to sell or replace a sub.

This x 2


Just look at how impressed everyone was with the 2 x JS-12's in a MUCH larger space https://www.avsforum.com/forum/61-ar...a-meet-12.html (compared to some larger ported subs)
I would assume 2 x JS-12's would be (ballpark) similar in output to a single Powered F18 unit @Mark Seaton ?
nonstopdoc1 likes this.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
TV: Panasonic P65ST60 AVR: Denon X4000 Speakers: PSA MTM-210C (Centre), PSA MTM-210 (Left & Right), PSA MT-110 (Surrounds) Subwoofers: Dual Seaton SubMersives
jamiebosco is offline  
post #51 of 68 Old 10-11-2018, 08:17 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nyal Mellor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SF Bay Area, California, USA
Posts: 1,729
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 545 Post(s)
Liked: 385
Here are the modeling results:






Want to learn about home theater design and acoustics? Read our blog.
Company: Acoustic Frontiers - design and creation of high performance home theaters for discerning audio/video enthusiasts.
Certifications: HAA Level I & II, THX Video Level I & II, CEDIA EST I & II.
AVS Projects: Too many to show in my signature - see here for the master list.
Nyal Mellor is online now  
post #52 of 68 Old 10-11-2018, 08:26 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nyal Mellor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SF Bay Area, California, USA
Posts: 1,729
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 545 Post(s)
Liked: 385
In general the four sub corner or four sub at 25/75% of room width works best for two row home theaters in terms of reducing seat-to-seat variability. Putting the subs in corners provides a lot of "free" room gain compared to using two subs front and back midwall. Often when I look at it you could use four low cost ported 12" like a SVS PC-2000 and have as much output (and less cost) than two ported 18" at mid-wall. When the room size goes up trying to find two subs powerful enough to meet SPL requirements is pretty difficult. Plus subs in corners is generally less room intrusive than mid-wall subs.

As you can see from the output modeling, four 15" ported in corners gives a lot of headroom, and four 12" ported would meet SPL requirements.

Obviously we are just looking at output here, no concession to sound quality at that output level. I do believe subs operating well within their output capability will sound better.

With front / rear subs you absolutely need the ability to delay and level adjust the rears, and any room correction such as Dirac needs to EQ all subs together.

Want to learn about home theater design and acoustics? Read our blog.
Company: Acoustic Frontiers - design and creation of high performance home theaters for discerning audio/video enthusiasts.
Certifications: HAA Level I & II, THX Video Level I & II, CEDIA EST I & II.
AVS Projects: Too many to show in my signature - see here for the master list.
Nyal Mellor is online now  
post #53 of 68 Old 10-11-2018, 09:42 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
enricoclaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 6,041
Mentioned: 292 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4082 Post(s)
Liked: 5101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
In general the four sub corner or four sub at 25/75% of room width works best for two row home theaters in terms of reducing seat-to-seat variability. Putting the subs in corners provides a lot of "free" room gain compared to using two subs front and back midwall. Often when I look at it you could use four low cost ported 12" like a SVS PC-2000 and have as much output (and less cost) than two ported 18" at mid-wall. When the room size goes up trying to find two subs powerful enough to meet SPL requirements is pretty difficult. Plus subs in corners is generally less room intrusive than mid-wall subs.

As you can see from the output modeling, four 15" ported in corners gives a lot of headroom, and four 12" ported would meet SPL requirements.

Obviously we are just looking at output here, no concession to sound quality at that output level. I do believe subs operating well within their output capability will sound better.

With front / rear subs you absolutely need the ability to delay and level adjust the rears, and any room correction such as Dirac needs to EQ all subs together.
That's totally correct. With four subwoofers, mostly with two up front and two on the back, is when a miniDSP 2x4 HD shines. Time align and level match them with the miniDSP, maybe run/import some REW filters just to deal with any nasty room mode and then show them to Dirac as one subwoofer. That's the way I do with my pair of F12SEs and Emotiva XMC-1 with Dirac Live full. The results are just great!!
plain fan and nonstopdoc1 like this.

Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio - Dialing In Rythmik Audio Subwoofers - REW for macOS
Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony 77A9G OLED |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |
enricoclaudio is offline  
post #54 of 68 Old 10-11-2018, 10:08 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Soulburner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln
Posts: 5,440
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 194 Post(s)
Liked: 1925
You have gotten a lot of recommendations here, but based on your small room size, and the stated requirements such as more than adequate, non-fatiguing, tight and accurate bass in your original post, your best choice will be 12 or 15-inch sealed subwoofers. You do not need ported subs and they may in fact be wrong for your situation.

I recommend Rythmik F15HP - there is a multi-sub discount, and they are on sale right now. I think 2 would be enough for around 110-115dB at 20Hz. My guess is 4xF15HP will reach the 115-120dB at 20Hz range, maybe more as I don't know how much room gain you're going to end up with. Your in-room extension will be below 10Hz...good luck!
nonstopdoc1 likes this.

HT: Samsung PN64H5000 (recommended settings) | NAD T758 V3 | Buchardt S400 (2) | Polk LSiM 702 F/X (2) | Infinity RS152 (4) | Subs TBD (2)
PC: Micca OriGen G2 | Mackie MR624 (2)

Last edited by Soulburner; 10-11-2018 at 10:47 PM.
Soulburner is online now  
post #55 of 68 Old 10-12-2018, 09:19 AM
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,494
Mentioned: 380 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5668 Post(s)
Liked: 11246
I started to post about this yesterday, and then changed my mind and deleted my post. But, I think that the ported versus sealed issue deserves some more discussion. We seem to be concluding that a 2600^3 room is too small to benefit from ported subwoofers, and I'm not sure that is the right conclusion to reach. I know quite a few people, in similar size rooms, who prefer ported subwoofers to sealed. And, some of them are on suspended wood floors.

The reason that I mention suspended wood floors is because they convey much stronger low-bass tactile sensations (vibrations) than a concrete floor does. Mid-bass tactile sensations (chest punch) are primarily the result of sufficient SPL, combined with sudden percussive mid-bass sounds, such as a kick drum or a gunshot. The floor material is not really a factor for those sensations.

Low-bass tactile sensations, such as the rumble of an earthquake, or the thud of a T-Rex footfall, however, are primarily conveyed through the floor. And, ported subs seem to convey those sensations much better than sealed subs do. That is largely due to the dual action of the drivers, and the ports themselves, creating pressure waves at low frequencies.

Where I am going with this is that I believe that the right ported subs might add another dimension to the movie watching experience, when someone is on a concrete floor. That certainly seems to be the case for many of us. I like the idea of going with four Rythmik FV15HP's. I believe that the variable port tunes (including a 12Hz port tune) would give the OP great user adjustability and all the low-frequency extension he could ever want. And, there would be plenty of low-bass SPL, and the action of the ports, to provide some additional low-bass tactile response.

I don't believe that the FV15's would give up any significant advantage to the sealed versions in terms of accuracy or overall sound quality. And, although the Rythmik ported subwoofers do not create as powerful low-bass TR as some of the other brands of ported subs, they will provide appreciably more of that than their sealed counterparts. I think that might be very welcome for a number of action movies, where low-bass sounds can not easily be separated from low-bass tactile sensations.

Buying four good subwoofers to put in the corners of the room, as modeled by Nyal, means that the OP is unlikely to make a bad decision. There are probably any number of potential good decisions, in fact. But, I think that highly versatile ported subwoofers, such as the Rythmik FV15's, might be one of the best solutions. If at all possible, I recommend that the OP go somewhere to compare ported and sealed subwoofers (of whatever make) to determine whether low-bass tactile response is a potential factor in his preferences. For a 2600^3 room, on a concrete floor, I think that is a question worth exploring.

Regards,
Mike
nonstopdoc1 and Soulburner like this.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 10-12-2018 at 10:08 AM.
mthomas47 is offline  
post #56 of 68 Old 10-12-2018, 10:58 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Soulburner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln
Posts: 5,440
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 194 Post(s)
Liked: 1925
^ My post was mostly in response to the OPs stated goals (doesn't want room shaking bass, wants most articulate sound). The room was secondary in the sealed recommendation, but does factor in, of course.

The sealed Rythmiks do sound a bit more tightly damped than their ported models, recent discussion has revealed by people who have heard both. With that said, even the ported models are in a league above most other brands due to their design. Some would say the difference is a ported Rythmik from say 30-100Hz sounds like a good sealed sub from other brands, and a sealed Rythmik sounds like it has super-high damping by comparison, of course without the bump at 15-25Hz.

HT: Samsung PN64H5000 (recommended settings) | NAD T758 V3 | Buchardt S400 (2) | Polk LSiM 702 F/X (2) | Infinity RS152 (4) | Subs TBD (2)
PC: Micca OriGen G2 | Mackie MR624 (2)
Soulburner is online now  
post #57 of 68 Old 10-12-2018, 11:22 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
ack_bk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New England
Posts: 11,367
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1345 Post(s)
Liked: 1506
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
^ My post was mostly in response to the OPs stated goals (doesn't want room shaking bass, wants most articulate sound). The room was secondary in the sealed recommendation, but does factor in, of course.

The sealed Rythmiks do sound a bit more tightly damped than their ported models, recent discussion has revealed by people who have heard both. With that said, even the ported models are in a league above most other brands due to their design. Some would say the difference is a ported Rythmik from say 30-100Hz sounds like a good sealed sub from other brands, and a sealed Rythmik sounds like it has super-high damping by comparison, of course without the bump at 15-25Hz.
Correct, I also recommended sealed after reading the OP's post and his goals. Giant black ported boxes are not always going to work for everyone.
nonstopdoc1 likes this.
ack_bk is offline  
post #58 of 68 Old 10-12-2018, 11:26 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jamiebosco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,365
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 846 Post(s)
Liked: 2117
Nice post Mike.
Honestly, I don't think people are concluding that 2600^ft is too small to benefit from ported subs, it's probably more that - in the OPs situation - either sealed or ported could work very well (especially with Nyal involved)


The fact that nonstopdoc1 posted :
Quote:
I am not a 'basshead' and not looking for room shaking output. My goal is to have more than adequate, non-fatiguing, tight and accurate bass.
makes me believe that he would also end up being pretty damn happy with the single digit output of 4 x Seaton Master/Slave F18's or F2's or 4 x Rythmik F18's or F15's, or 4 x PSA S1811's or 3010's, or a pair of JTR S2's






*edit* haha - beaten to the punch by soulburner & ack_bk

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
TV: Panasonic P65ST60 AVR: Denon X4000 Speakers: PSA MTM-210C (Centre), PSA MTM-210 (Left & Right), PSA MT-110 (Surrounds) Subwoofers: Dual Seaton SubMersives
jamiebosco is offline  
post #59 of 68 Old 10-12-2018, 04:44 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
BRAC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Edmonton, AB
Posts: 2,054
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 706 Post(s)
Liked: 619
I really like the idea of Seaton F18’s, or you could save a ton of money and go for the HSU ULS-15 MK2 quad drive. It’s not necessary to go with the larger ported subs if you are planning a sub in all 4 corners imho. The sealed subs will take up a lot less space and look much better. Plus, they will give you all the output, extension and tactile you would ever need in that space.
Soulburner likes this.

Samsung 82” Q90R * LG 55” C8 * Denon X4500H * 5.2.4 Atmos * Xbox One X * PS4 Pro
BRAC is online now  
post #60 of 68 Old 10-12-2018, 05:45 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jjackkrash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,276
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2223 Post(s)
Liked: 2332
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I like the idea of going with four Rythmik FV15HP's.
I think these would be a great choice. But 4 SubMersives (a pair of Master/Slaves) in that room would also take your breath away when the scene called for it.
jamiebosco and mthomas47 like this.
jjackkrash is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off