Subwoofer comparisons and impressions - Page 11 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #301 of 1771 Old 11-04-2018, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Tried 110hz xover yet?


I had tried 100hz with the PSA. Nothing higher


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post #302 of 1771 Old 11-04-2018, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
It does seem like it is height related. I raised the mike about a foot or so and the dip becomes a bump but then there is a dip at 75hz. If I just raise it about 6 inches there is a shallower dip but I already know it’s not audible but it’s good to know.


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I agree, it does seem to be height related, but also surprise about a new one around 75Hz, having all your speakers, set to 80Hz.
Is it a big one, or shallow?

Look like at point, is to choose your poison, since the inner voice, want a flat line.
Look like your are in the right track, to solve this problem
Then again, as you said, it does sound good, and this what matter.


Ray

Last edited by darthray; 11-04-2018 at 04:15 PM.
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post #303 of 1771 Old 11-05-2018, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
I agree, it does seem to be height related, but also surprise about a new one around 75Hz, having all your speakers, set to 80Hz.
Is it a big one, or shallow?

Look like at point, is to choose your poison, since the inner voice, want a flat line.
Look like your are in the right track, to solve this problem
Then again, as you said, it does sound good, and this what matter.


Ray


Hi Ray, fronts crossed at 90hz and surrounds at 100hz. It’s pretty shallow.


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post #304 of 1771 Old 11-05-2018, 05:55 PM
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Good post...but these film mixers need to do this. I shouldn't have to purchase more equipment to place in the signal chain and input custom filters for each movie just to enjoy it the way it should be. So I am not ready to travel down that rabbit hole yet but it does sound tempting...and even though my subs don't go down into the single digits, I am sure it would add to the overall experience.
From memory I think our setups are pretty similar. I have two V1500's and an XV15SE. While I agree that we shouldn't have to jump through hoops and the dsp will cost you $200, but BEQ absolutely makes sense for anyone with a decent setup. The difference before/after BEQ ranges from pretty cool to holy crap!
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post #305 of 1771 Old 11-05-2018, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Spidacat View Post
From memory I think our setups are pretty similar. I have two V1500's and an XV15SE. While I agree that we shouldn't have to jump through hoops and the dsp will cost you $200, but BEQ absolutely makes sense for anyone with a decent setup. The difference before/after BEQ ranges from pretty cool to holy crap!


Ok I am definitely getting the minidsp this week. You are the third person to tell me how good BEQ is. Are you using the minidsp as well? I was thinking to add bass traps first or the minidsp but now I am thinking to the minidsp first.


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post #306 of 1771 Old 11-05-2018, 07:29 PM
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Yes, the 2x4 HD. Definitely worth the extra money over the original. More filters, better resolution... PioManiac copied a chart of the differences on the first page of the BEQ thread. I've never done any room treatments so can't compare which would give you a bigger effect, but the 2x4 HD is easily one of the best things you can spend $200 on.
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post #307 of 1771 Old 11-08-2018, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
My crossover is at 90hz at the moment.
Tried 110hz xover yet?

This is one aspect I still can't comprehend. It's difficult for me to understand why you would cross capable speakers such as the 210's so high. Is it mostly for a better FR? How about the actual sound, aren't you taking away from the speakers?
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post #308 of 1771 Old 11-08-2018, 08:10 PM
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It depends on how much mid bass you want. Reference level is peak at 105 dB with your speakers, so if you run your speakers low you will not get higher than that unless you run your treble high. Crossing to capable subs is minimum 115 dB and higher with channel summation and running your subs hot. The mid bass slam comes from your subs! Don’t get me wrong, certain mains have great mid bass but unless you run an early house curve you risk extremely loud treble, not so with the subs.
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post #309 of 1771 Old 11-08-2018, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
This is one aspect I still can't comprehend. It's difficult for me to understand why you would cross capable speakers such as the 210's so high. Is it mostly for a better FR? How about the actual sound, aren't you taking away from the speakers?
Th 210s fall off a cliff after 70-80Hz. They are very efficient speakers but don't dig very deep. And it is generally a good idea to have an octave between the crossover point and the F3 point, if possible. You for sure don't want the crossover point below or right at the F3 point.

In any event, even if they had a 20Hz F3 point you still want to crossover at around 80Hz and let the subs do the heavy lifting for a number of reasons, including taking some of the load off the main speakers (increased system headroom) and the fact that the best placement for your main speakers is usually not the best placement for the bass frequencies.
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post #310 of 1771 Old 11-08-2018, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
This is one aspect I still can't comprehend. It's difficult for me to understand why you would cross capable speakers such as the 210's so high. Is it mostly for a better FR? How about the actual sound, aren't you taking away from the speakers?
Hoffman’s Iron Laws of Speaker Building:

1) Bass Extension
2) Efficiency
3) Small Enclosure

The law is that you can only have two of these three attributes in speaker building.

The 210s are capable in that they are efficient and can play loud. They are actually not that big as floor standers. Therefore, the 210s have 2) and 3) but they don't have the bass extension of other floor standers of similar size. However, while these other floor standers extend lower, they won't have the 210s' efficiency: sensitivity of 98dB 1W/1M.

It is all about design choices. Compromises have to be made somewhere. This is why those JTR high efficiency speakers that many say don't need subwoofers are humongous!

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post #311 of 1771 Old 11-09-2018, 07:03 AM
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On top of what being mentioned about the higher crossover (as long as subs do not become localized), the benefits are:

1: The sub is made to play 120Hz (may be more) and below. Speakers can be made to play that low but not as well. Higher crossover allows speakers to play better with less stress.
2. Higher crossover releases amp stress from your AVR. Your AVR is now asked to amplify/play >120Hz instead of > 80Hz.
3. You can listen at a lower MV level and still have enough bass by just increasing sub trim/gain.

I believe @MKtheater crossovers his speakers at 200Hz or at least he did.
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post #312 of 1771 Old 11-09-2018, 07:52 AM
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100hz is the highest I cross a sub. I don't want Mike Rows voice shaking my windows on TV night.
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post #313 of 1771 Old 11-09-2018, 08:58 AM
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It depends on the subs. My mains I built can play to 50hz as loud as my subs, however, as mentioned earlier reference level peaks at 105 dB for the speakers and the LFE channel peaks 115 dB plus channel summation and I happen to run them hot. This means when I cross to the subs that will play over 120 dB which creates much more midbass than even capable mains UNLESS you run your speakers hot and I am not sure how many of us want 120 dB of treble. Right now my cross is at 80hz due to my sub drivers.
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post #314 of 1771 Old 11-09-2018, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
fronts crossed at 90hz and surrounds at 100hz.

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Hey Bud, when possible, try the same crossover through out to have even bass response in your system. I would try to cross ALL speakers at 110Hz and perhaps try to lower the LFE on your Denon to 110Hz as well. Try those and let us know what you think. I have the feeling that you will like it even more with these settings.
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post #315 of 1771 Old 11-09-2018, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Hey Bud, when possible, try the same crossover through out to have even bass response in your system. I would try to cross ALL speakers at 110Hz and perhaps try to lower the LFE on your Denon to 110Hz as well. Try those and let us know what you think. I have the feeling that you will like it even more with these settings.
Hey man, yeah I had been running 100hz for all speakers with my PSA for a while but had not played with LPF for LFE yet. Will give it a try. I also have the minidsap HD on the way, did some reading on the BEQ thread about the set up but am not clear yet. Unfortunately Enrico is still not well enough to make it over....

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser
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post #316 of 1771 Old 11-09-2018, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Hey man, yeah I had been running 100hz for all speakers with my PSA for a while but had not played with LPF for LFE yet. Will give it a try. I also have the minidsap HD on the way, did some reading on the BEQ thread about the set up but am not clear yet. Unfortunately Enrico is still not well enough to make it over....
Before you get into the BEQ you need to use minidsp to set delays to time align all your subs first. Once all that is done and have house curve you like then you can get into the BEQ stuff.

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post #317 of 1771 Old 11-09-2018, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Before you get into the BEQ you need to use minidsp to set delays to time align all your subs first. Once all that is done and have house curve you like then you can get into the BEQ stuff.
Hi, I only have two subs that are placed up front symmetrically, so I think Audy does just fine setting the delays on them. I was just planning to use the minidsp for the entering the BEQ filters....

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser
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post #318 of 1771 Old 11-09-2018, 05:34 PM
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Thanks for the crossover breakdown guys, I understand it much better now
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post #319 of 1771 Old 11-09-2018, 07:58 PM
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Hi, I only have two subs that are placed up front symmetrically, so I think Audy does just fine setting the delays on them. I was just planning to use the minidsp for the entering the BEQ filters....
Just because they are physically symmetrical doesn't mean it will both have exact same timing at the MLP. Since you are already getting a minidsp and already use REW you should still check. Even .05ms delay can make a difference and I doubt your AVR can even fine tune both subs in such small increments. There is minidsp guide on time aligning multiple subs and its very easy to do.

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post #320 of 1771 Old 11-09-2018, 08:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Just because they are physically symmetrical doesn't mean it will both have exact same timing at the MLP. Since you are already getting a minidsp and already use REW you should still check. Even .05ms delay can make a difference and I doubt your AVR can even fine tune both subs in such small increments. There is minidsp guide on time aligning multiple subs and its very easy to do.


Sure. Will look at it. Once I get the equipment next week, I will need to figure out how to connect everything up first. My subs are connected via a Y splitter and presented to the AVR as one sub. That is why I was thinking that the time aligning may not apply? This was per Mark Seaton’s guidance for when subs are equidistant from the MLP.


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Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
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post #321 of 1771 Old 11-09-2018, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Sure. Will look at it. Once I get the equipment next week, I will need to figure out how to connect everything up first. My subs are connected via a Y splitter and presented to the AVR as one sub. That is why I was thinking that the time aligning may not apply? This was per Mark Seaton’s guidance for when subs are equidistant from the MLP.


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To be able to delay each sub individually you will need to run each sub per output on minidsp. So basically one cable from avr to minidsp input, then one cable from minidsp output to each sub. 3 cables total. Then use impulse graph on REW to see the timing to reach MLP mic. Also since you are using minidsp for subs....just use eq filters for sub xover point and below only. Don't use audessey for that range....only for sub xover point and above for mids/highs.

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post #322 of 1771 Old 11-20-2018, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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A quick update after getting into BEQ....these subs are superb handling low bass seems to be a walk in the park. I tried wonder woman as an example with BEQ and the bracelet scene was like a bomb going off in my room. The FV18s are really shinning in the deep bass dept with anything I have thrown at them.

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser
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Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
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post #323 of 1771 Old 11-20-2018, 09:51 PM
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^^ Welcome to the beq club . It’s a sin not beq’ing especially with capable subs like yours.
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post #324 of 1771 Old 11-21-2018, 06:09 AM
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Maybe I missed the memo here...but what is all this "BEQ" talk?

Speakers: Fronts- JBL 230, Center- JBL 235C, Surrounds: Fluance XLBP
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post #325 of 1771 Old 11-21-2018, 07:50 AM
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Maybe I missed the memo here...but what is all this "BEQ" talk?
Bass Equalization...meaning add a low shelf filter that counters the steep filters that film mixers are implementing in todays movies. There is a thread covering this topic.


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...ed-movies.html
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post #326 of 1771 Old 11-21-2018, 08:00 AM
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Bass Equalization...meaning add a low shelf filter that counters the steep filters that film mixers are implementing in todays movies. There is a thread covering this topic.


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...ed-movies.html
Thanks, Basshead. So after reading it looks like the bass is changed for each movie. I'm guessing you would need some sort of DSP to accomplish this then?

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post #327 of 1771 Old 11-21-2018, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, Basshead. So after reading it looks like the bass is changed for each movie. I'm guessing you would need some sort of DSP to accomplish this then?


Most folks use minidsp


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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
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post #328 of 1771 Old 11-30-2018, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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For those following along on this thread. Enrico, Todd and I met at my house last night and professor Enrico dialed the FV18s using the minidsp HD. Check out this post below

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post57191598

I will adding some panels soon so will update how things look after
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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
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post #329 of 1771 Old 11-30-2018, 08:34 AM
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very impressive...you adding bass boost now that you have flat? if so how much?

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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post #330 of 1771 Old 11-30-2018, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Subwoofer comparisons and impressions

Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
very impressive...you adding bass boost now that you have flat? if so how much?


To fix that one dip around 63hz we boosted about 7db.


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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
imureh is online now  
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