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post #391 of 1741 Old 12-19-2018, 01:42 PM
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The high xmax drivers I have tried all had more ULF and less rolloff which meant slower decay times. But that is the nature of lower frequencies, so my quest has been building speakers that don't care about slower decay times and can rip right through them with accurate precision. Basically you can hear the detail while all the bass is going on.

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post #392 of 1741 Old 12-19-2018, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
The high xmax drivers I have tried all had more ULF and less rolloff which meant slower decay times. But that is the nature of lower frequencies, so my quest has been building speakers that don't care about slower decay times and can rip right through them with accurate precision. Basically you can hear the detail while all the bass is going on.


Interesting. So are you using lower xmax drivers now? An interesting point here I found is the JTR driver is I think 33mm xmax while the PB16 ultra is stated to have 82mm xmax but we know that though the PB16 has good excursion it is nowhere near that of JTR. So I wonder if this metric is also measured differently by different brands?

Your point about high excursion drivers have lower decay times makes sense as that could be reason for the lack of clarity and also adding in additional floor resonance.


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post #393 of 1741 Old 12-19-2018, 01:50 PM
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That 82mm is both ways and probably x-mech. I have owned many different drivers and the FI car audio drivers silimar to the JTR line except the IB version. It has less motor strength and power because it goes into a huge box. My driver I am using now are the 54mm re audio 18s. These are beasts and nothing comes close as ULF is concerned.
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post #394 of 1741 Old 12-19-2018, 02:32 PM
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According to SVS, the PB16-Ultra's 15.5" driver has "95mm peak to peak Xmech excursion (82mm Xmax)". The 82mm Xmax should be both ways.

The JTR 2400/2400ULF/4000ULF has "33mm Xmax (each way), +4" peak to peak". 4" is 102mm.
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post #395 of 1741 Old 12-19-2018, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
According to SVS, the PB16-Ultra's 15.5" driver has "95mm peak to peak Xmech excursion (82mm Xmax)". The 82mm Xmax should be both ways.

The JTR 2400/2400ULF/4000ULF has "33mm Xmax (each way), +4" peak to peak". 4" is 102mm.


Cool. Thanks Chucky.


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post #396 of 1741 Old 12-19-2018, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari_1996 View Post

This guy's room isn't that large by any means and feels he needs more TR. He has three FV25 subs so clearly output is not even close to being a concern considering he has them flanking behind the couch which looks to be about 6 feet away from the couch. Is this another piece of evidence then that even with running three of these high end subs that Rythmik just doesn't have that type of violent sound that people really like for movies? Is this why they went with the paper cone with the FV18 from customer feedback? Clearly TR can be subjective, I get that, but come on, three FV25s behind the couch and still not enough? Just seems a bit odd.

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post #397 of 1741 Old 12-19-2018, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Subwoofer comparisons and impressions

Quote:
Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
This guy's room isn't that large by any means and feels he needs more TR. He has three FV25 subs so clearly output is not even close to being a concern considering he has them flanking behind the couch which looks to be about 6 feet away from the couch. Is this another piece of evidence then that even with running three of these high end subs that Rythmik just doesn't have that type of violent sound that people really like for movies? Is this why they went with the paper cone with the FV18 from customer feedback? Clearly TR can be subjective, I get that, but come on, three FV25s behind the couch and still not enough? Just seems a bit odd.


His real issue is that he is on concrete. He is not getting any TR from the surface. The aluminum driver of the rythmik does have lower TR than the paper cone but even the paper cone does not have the same TR as a JTR sub. But for me being on a suspended floor the FV18 TR is really good. He will certainly get more TR from JTR but will it be enough on concrete for his liking? Only time will tell. He would be better off building a riser but he has height issues in room too.


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post #398 of 1741 Old 12-19-2018, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
His real issue is that he is on concrete. He is not getting any TR from the surface. The aluminum driver of the rythmik does have lower TR than the paper cone but even the paper cone does not have the same TR as a JTR sub. But for me being on a suspended floor the FV18 TR is really good. He will certainly get more TR from JTR but will it be enough on concrete for his liking? Only time will tell. He would be better off building a riser but he has height issues in room too.


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Got it. From what I’ve been reading it seems like the floor material of the room is as equally important as the sub. Is the general consensus that if somebody is on concrete that they are to go ported as well regardless of how big the sealed model is?

I am on concrete and I’ve heard a lot of really good things about some people switching to sealed but every time this gets brought up and when somebody shares that they have a concrete floor the person is always encouraged to just get the biggest ported sub they can get because they will lose a lot of TR with sealed. You agree with this thought?


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post #399 of 1741 Old 12-19-2018, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
Got it. From what I’ve been reading it seems like the floor material of the room is as equally important as the sub. Is the general consensus that if somebody is on concrete that they are to go ported as well regardless of how big the sealed model is?

I am on concrete and I’ve heard a lot of really good things about some people switching to sealed but every time this gets brought up and when somebody shares that they have a concrete floor the person is always encouraged to just get the biggest ported sub they can get because they will lose a lot of TR with sealed. You agree with this thought?


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From a physics perspective that is true. However there are certain elements that are variables such as each individual experiencing TR differently. There is also low bass TR and mid bass TR and some feel one type more than the other. Floor surface definitely makes a difference in addition to other aspects of the room such as open or sealed. You could get the same type of TR from sealed subs but would more of them compared to ported all things being equal


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post #400 of 1741 Old 12-19-2018, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
three FV25s behind the couch and still not enough? Just seems a bit odd.
3 FV25s are not enough for him whereas half of an FV25 can be too much for other. It all depends how much basshead one is.

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I am on concrete and I’ve heard a lot of really good things about some people switching to sealed but every time this gets brought up and when somebody shares that they have a concrete floor the person is always encouraged to just get the biggest ported sub they can get because they will lose a lot of TR with sealed. You agree with this thought?

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If you plan to have 2 subs then yes, 2 LOW TUNED ported subs are better than 2 sealed subs. Sealed subs are better when you plan to have 4-8 sealed subs. Thus, the reason why ported subs are always recommended based on best performance per dollars.
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post #401 of 1741 Old 12-19-2018, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
Got it. From what I’ve been reading it seems like the floor material of the room is as equally important as the sub. Is the general consensus that if somebody is on concrete that they are to go ported as well regardless of how big the sealed model is?

I am on concrete and I’ve heard a lot of really good things about some people switching to sealed but every time this gets brought up and when somebody shares that they have a concrete floor the person is always encouraged to just get the biggest ported sub they can get because they will lose a lot of TR with sealed. You agree with this thought?
In order to get the most TR, you need a good mix of the following (in no particular order):

1. Floor material.
2. The right amount of THD.
3. Output.
4. Extension.

While sealed subs can dig deeper, they just don't produce enough output +/- 1 octave around port tune, compared with a ported sub of similar caliber.
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post #402 of 1741 Old 12-19-2018, 07:00 PM
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It depends on the drivers, if one can add a LT to the sealed sub without runnning out of excursion or amp power you gain much more TR and there is not a fall off point under tune. It will go to bottom of the signal chain.

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post #403 of 1741 Old 12-20-2018, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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It depends on the drivers, if one can add a LT to the sealed sub without runnning out of excursion or amp power you gain much more TR and there is not a fall off point under tune. It will go to bottom of the signal chain.
You have pics of your subs?

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post #404 of 1741 Old 12-20-2018, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
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It depends on the drivers, if one can add a LT to the sealed sub without runnning out of excursion or amp power you gain much more TR and there is not a fall off point under tune. It will go to bottom of the signal chain.
You have pics of your subs?
It is a wall with two drivers in it for now. I will be adding two more. An IB but with low end boost. I have a picture with the port I had, I just screwed in a big 3/4 plywood panel over it and then some sound panel over that.

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post #405 of 1741 Old 12-20-2018, 11:51 AM
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That's a mean looking sub driver from Reaction Audio! I have one funk audio custom driver using custom large sealed box for more ULF.....can't wait to get the 2nd one!
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post #407 of 1741 Old 12-20-2018, 12:05 PM
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I sealed that port, and then turned on my LFE adjust gain to 6 dB and get the same results, except deeper! Of course the drivers can take it so that is what I meant. I will add two more and that will be more ULF I ever had, this room is only 1430 cubes(short ceilings).
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Coming from this
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That's a mean looking sub driver from Reaction Audio! I have one funk audio custom driver using custom large sealed box for more ULF.....can't wait to get the 2nd one!
To my knowledge RE Audio has no relation to Reaction Audio.
RE Audio is short for Resonant Engineering Audio
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Thanks for sharing @MKtheater , that is an unreal set up. I am sure it sounds bombastic! Now I see why you get the results you do.

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post #411 of 1741 Old 12-20-2018, 01:03 PM
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Sealed room with a little crack in the door(creates peak at 5-6hz), in a concrete basement. Lots of ULF and huge room gain. The short ceilings create another boundary gain as well. I always tell people my room creates all the magic. I am on concrete with carpet and the back row is on a wooden riser. The pressure and TR back there is too much at times, I have to turn it down(the bass that is). I just sit in the front middle row.

This is sealed with no EQ or smoothing. The peak is what causes that small dip at12-13hz.

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To my knowledge RE Audio has no relation to Reaction Audio.
RE Audio is short for Resonant Engineering Audio
Oh! Thanks for clearing it up.

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post #413 of 1741 Old 12-20-2018, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
This guy's room isn't that large by any means and feels he needs more TR. He has three FV25 subs so clearly output is not even close to being a concern considering he has them flanking behind the couch which looks to be about 6 feet away from the couch. Is this another piece of evidence then that even with running three of these high end subs that Rythmik just doesn't have that type of violent sound that people really like for movies? Is this why they went with the paper cone with the FV18 from customer feedback? Clearly TR can be subjective, I get that, but come on, three FV25s behind the couch and still not enough? Just seems a bit odd.
while what i had was presumably more than enough for most people, i'm not most people. the vast majority of people have no idea what TR feels like, never-mind powerful TR (similar to how most have no idea what it's like to be pushed back into your seat with a fast car), so it's understandable that many would dismiss what i'm doing as crazy or otherwise.

i had a great deal of fun with the 3 rythmik subs this past year. i managed to recoup 83% of what the trio cost me last year to buy new between two different sales. it effectively cost me $83/mo to lease the subs for a year. i regret nothing! i'm in no rush to figure out what i'm doing next with the room. multiple jtr captivator's are most likely in my future, but i'm still exploring other options.
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post #414 of 1741 Old 12-21-2018, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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the vast majority of people have no idea what TR feels like, never-mind powerful TR
And to add to this, there is low bass TR and Mid bass TR, TR from the port (in ported subs), TR from the surface etc etc....

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post #415 of 1741 Old 12-21-2018, 09:10 PM - Thread Starter
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@C137 this is the thread I mentioned.


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post #416 of 1741 Old 12-22-2018, 10:44 AM
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@C137 this is the thread I mentioned.


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We had another great afternoon listening to the FV25HP and Cap 2400. It was great finally to meet with Tony @tvuong of course @toddct , @imureh and @LGJr were there as well. Here some pictures.
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Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio - Dialing In Rythmik Audio Subwoofers
Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | 92" Stewart ST100 | Sony VW295ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |
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post #418 of 1741 Old 12-27-2018, 05:28 PM
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The Tale of Two Towers! Rythmik FV25 vs JTR 2400ULF

Hey everyone,

I know there have been a few people anticipating the comparison between these 2 awesome subs and I promise I will post my review soon but thought I would go ahead and reserve a couple of spots here in the meantime. I will post my impressions soon.

But as Enrico has mentioned, we had a small gathering today so as soon as they can put their thoughts together, you may hear some impressions from @imureh , @tvuong and @LGJr . @enricoclaudio may post a little more than his brief statement above but he says he's a little biased.

I'm also hoping to get a few more select people from Houston in the next week or 2, we'll see if I can get that together.

Good times today guys!

Todd
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“People say nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day.”― A.A. Milne, Winnie-the-Pooh

Last edited by toddct; 12-27-2018 at 05:39 PM.
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post #419 of 1741 Old 12-27-2018, 05:29 PM
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The Tale of Two Towers! Rythmik FV25 vs JTR 2400ULF



And boy do these guys rumble, but let's get this out of the way first. Please keep in mind that this comparison is mostly my subjective opinion (albeit laden with sarcasm) with some objective information and numbers.

Alright, I’ve never really done anything like this before so I’m kind of winging it along with mixing in a little bit of what I’ve learned from AVS and my experience. So I’ll post some graphs, pictures and my listening experience. Hopefully you’ll get something helpful out of it or at the very least be a bit entertained.

DESCRIPTIONS/OBSERVATIONS

Rythmik FV25: We (meaning Brian, Enrico and Ray) were able to get the FV25 up to my 2nd level wood floor. The FV25 weighs a ton….not really, just 225 pounds but still, it takes 2 if not 3 or 4 guys to move the sub up any type of stairs. It’s construction, fit and finish are excellent. It’s weight is comprised of 2x15 inch drivers, a big toroidal amp and MDF construction/bracing and because of these things, it is super inert. The aluminum drivers are beautiful and you have the option of silver a finish if that’s your thing. The finish is a smooth matte black. The boxing is incredible, double boxed, foam corners, cloth bag and skateboards……..did you hear what I said “skateboards”! The amp plate has so many dials that it looks like a NASA desk station. Houston……..we are go for liftoff!! I’m kidding of course, but it does have a lot of flexibility. That might be a little bit intimidating to beginners but I think it allows the sub to be tweaked for many different tastes and rooms, which I see as a bonus. Without feet it is a little over 41 inches tall, 21 wide and 22 deep. The FV25 and the 2400 are roughly the same size, if you can fit one, you can likely fit the other.






JTR Captivator 2400-10ULF: I bought these new earlier this year. I was actually the first person to receive the new tune at 10hz; needless to say, I was super stoked. They weigh about 165 pounds each and I did have to have a neighbor help me get them up. The 2400 is easier to move around due to its single 18 inch driver, digital amp and baltic birch construction. It does not quite feel as inert as MDF and when pushed it can walk a bit. There’s some debate about MDF vs. baltic birch and I can see the pros and cons for each. My 2x2400’s arrived safe and sound on a pallet which were shrink wrapped, boxed (piece meal boxes but well covered), individually shrink wrapped and had foam separating the subs. I was most impressed with the heavy 3 inch foam/rubber piece they were lying on. The whole packaging may be a little unconventional but very effective. Fit and finish are good. The 18” drivers are super impressive, they just look mean. As I have stated before, the standard black finish is pretty industrial, but on the plus side, I don’t really worry about hurting it. The amp has 4 dials, delay, crossover, LF adjust and volume so it is less flexible and less intimidating. The 2400 is 39.5 inches tall, 20.5 wide and 22.5 deep.






Standout observations: The boxing on Rythmik subs is top notch as well as it’s fit and finish. JTR (for a fee) can customize your sub with just about any finish you want and they are spectacular. The aluminum drivers on the Rythmik are beautiful but the JTR drivers basically say “we mean business”. The flexibility of the Rythmik amps is impressive. I know subs are supposed to be heavy, and I agree, but I like the lighter weight of the 2400, if not for the very reason that I’m fat and out of shape and it’s easier to move. YMMV on any one of these aspects.

Output and Extension: I’m not going to get into this too much because, IMO, they are very similar. I’m even thinking their sound signatures are going to be more evident than thinking “wow, that one is 1.5 dB louder at 35hz”, I don’t see that happening. Likewise for extension, I just don’t think anyone is going to pick these apart because one is 2hz lower than the other. Even when compared against each other, for me, these 2 aspects can’t be singled out. Here’s what I’ll do though, I’ve included a handy dandy chucky7 chart for quick reference and link the Databass review from Josh Ricci for each sub.

Chucky7 chart


Databass link
2400: https://data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=148
FV25: https://data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=147


SETUP/GRAPHS
My goal was/is to listen and measure them with their native frequency response without room correction and then try to optimize both. I’m used to having duals but a single sub measured best corner loaded, front left. Each sub was then boosted +10 dB hot, using REW. Caveat, on the 2400 when audy and mD are on, audy lowers the spl by about 3dB so when listening with both active I boosted the 2400 by 3dB.
The 1st measurement is audy off and no miniDSP. Native response.
The 2nd measurement is audy on and miniDSP off. Audy adjustment of native response.
The 3rd measurement is with audy off and miniDSP on. Adjusting native respond with MiniDSP.
The 4th measurement is with audy on and miniDSP on. Audy adjustment of miniDSP tweak.
You might be wondering why I did this and the honest answer is that I was just playing around to see what audy did with and without the miniDSP. Not sure if that’s the “right” way. Let me know if you have any requests for graphs and I’ll try to get them.











MUSIC
I’m not going to list out all the music I listened to because, well, my music tastes are not that sophisticated and I’m not really a critical music listener. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want my subs to sound like a&& with music but I am primarily a HT guy first. Sorry, no Beethoven, Chichovsky, etc. Tony did get busy with Suck My Bass at -5…….I thought my windows were going to give no matter which sub was playing!

FV25: As has been mentioned by numerous owners and reviewers the FV25 is ridonkulous with music, so fuhgeddaboudit …...it’s outstanding! I need to mention this before my next sentence, my mains are capable down to 35hz (so they say). So, one thing I noticed is that with the 8801 remote app I can switch between Direct, Pure Direct, Stereo, Dolby PLLc, etc. and when I do that with the FV25 it’s a great blend between the sub and my mains. Meaning, when I listen to just my mains and then switch to any of the other modes that include the sub, it’s pretty seamless. I know what you're thinking, “why have a sub at all?”, that’s an awesome question, you are so smart! Well, adding in the sub just gives it more weight and depth which is noticeable but it’s quite impressive that 15” drivers are as “fast” as the 6.5” drivers in my mains. So thumbs up for the FV25 on music! Shocker, I know.

2400: So if the FV25 is so good with music then the 2400 has to come in 2nd right? Well, that depends. I happen to really like the 2400 with music. It has a much thicker sound. Is it an accurate reproduction? Not sure, but as was pointed out by MKtheater recently, distortion numbers posted on Databass are done when maxing the sub out so the 2400 (duals at that) should have very low distortion in my room. And in my mind, I’m extremely satisfied with it’s signature. Using my 8801 stereo/direct modes, it is much more apparent when the 2400 is active and when it’s not. The 2400 is just a much more “in your face” kind of sub but it can be somewhat delicate when it needs to be. I just don’t think it likes to be delicate very long! It wants to be unleashed. So here you go, an 18” ported sub that’s also good with music. Winner...winner….chicken dinner!

MOVIES
I/we listened to many of the standard movie demo’s. 13 Hours, Ironman Jericho, Pulse Server Room, TIH Sonic Cannons, The Dark Knight Tunnel, John Wick, Underworld Awakenings, Tron Legacy Light Cycle, EOT intro, etc., etc.

FV25: This is the first time I have heard the aluminum drivers from Rythmik. Much has been said about the TR of the aluminum drivers and in my room and experience, you can get really good TR. Just remember, I am on second level with wood floors. I liked the 12hz, low dampening setting because it gave me more TR than the high setting. Punches and weapon strikes are…...well…..very punchy! They are forcefull and hit hard. Explosions and gunfire have a similar sounding nature but much, much louder. The machine gun fire in TDK when Bruce is shooting into bricks is extremely percussive and feels like it goes right through you. The TR has a heavy feel but precise and the entire room is excited for that brief second. And like I said the TR is really good but you have to set it up that way. Then, the FV25 goes back to blending into the background without being noticed. But when called upon, it will raise your ears and your head. The FV25 cuts on and off quickly, it never lingers on a note, it doesn’t blend everything together. It is very good about parsing out every sound particularly when it is on high dampening. I didn’t mess too much with the dampening settings, I had it set at low dampening and 12hz tune as I think that is more apples to apples to the 2400. But, Enrico and Tony asked me to listen a little bit with high dampening. This is my technical explanation of these 2 settings (there’s also a mid) but the high setting asks the drivers to be more civil, refined and controlled….dressed in a tuxedo if you will. The low dampening setting asks the drivers to be a little more loose, casual and somewhat off the chain……...dressed in a tuxedo shirt and untucked. I kind of like that, remember I said it was super flexible, it can suit up for some critical music listening or shred up some movies.

2400: Controlled chaos is how I think of the 2400 when playing movies…..slightly restrained violence, a wrecking ball with a quilt around it. That maybe a stupid analogy but I’m trying. While the FV25 has really good TR in my space, the 2400 is just wicked awesome if that’s your thing. For me, it is definitely my thing. As I have said before, it’s like the Goldilocks zone for TR and sound reproduction. Watching the 18” driver travel is mesmerizing, which is why I have them front and center without the grills. I love watching them in action. They still do a great job at sound separation, just not as well as the FV25. I think the 2400 really shines at pressurizing the room and enveloping you. The bass comes from everywhere and penetrates to your core. Another observation is that the 2400 emphasizes many of the smaller/lower volume moments in a movie whereas the FV25 tends to disappear. Again, YMMV as to whether you like that or not. The 2400, IMO, has more heft and depth and seems to display that attitude in almost every situation and scene. There’s something a little bit hard to explain with the 2400, it just has something that checks all my boxes.

RANDOM THOUGHTS/OBSERVATIONS
Pushed at high levels, the 2400 will walk; it is a lighter sub and the driver travels more so, there you go. It obviously does it more so on hardwood than it would on carpet but it also moves some on my seagrass rug. The FV25 does not move at all. On Suck My Bass, the 2400 did chuff at -5 MV and 10dB hot. I doubt it does with duals and Suck My Bass isn’t exactly my favorite song. While we are on the subject of sub punishing material, I prefer the sound of the FV25 over the 2400 on the EOT intro. Again, we were listening at -5 MV and 10dB hot. The 2400 is much more mechanical and the FV25 is smoother. I’m guessing the servo technology has something to do with that. Both subs have some adjustability to have more or less TR which is awesome if you need to move from a smaller to a larger room or vice versa. The placement of both subs was the front left, corner loaded because they measured best there. I first listened to the FV25 and I could localize it more so than the 2400, not sure if that means anything to anyone. It’s just something I noticed. One other thought, more often when I am listening to unknown material with the 2400, I raise my head and just smile, it takes me by surprise sometimes.

CONCLUSION
Both subs are awesome! Off the chain good! I can appreciate the strengths of both of them and I would love to have another room to put the FV25 in, but alas, so many subs…...so few rooms and money. Heck, I would love to have another room to put some sealed subs in! Who wouldn’t?!? Two more rooms with dual G25s and S2s anyone…..Bueller? Bottom line for me is this, if you are looking for tight and controlled with good TR and ultimate flexibility…..then the FV25 is your guy. If you are looking for unabashed, unapologetic, in your face, destructive bass and TR…... then the 2400 is your guy. Don’t get me wrong they both cross into a gray area so this isn’t a hard line description. Some aspects are closer than you think but they each have their own sound signature. Just depends on your ears and what you like!

Lastly, many thanks to Brian, Enrico and Ray! I couldn’t have gotten the FV25 in place without them. I have been lucky enough to listen to these Two Towers back to back and super appreciative. Extra special thanks to Jeff P and Brian for making such great subs! All of us are not going to agree on what they like best and that’s ok because we have such a good selection. Hats off to both JTR and Rythmik!

That’s it for now. I tried to be as fair as possible. Please point out any mistakes and I’ll correct. If you have a measurement request or any other question, just let me know. And like I said, I’ll try to get a few more people over to listen if I can.

Thanks for reading.

Todd

“People say nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day.”― A.A. Milne, Winnie-the-Pooh

Last edited by toddct; 12-28-2018 at 06:51 PM.
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