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post #31 of 1926 Old 10-22-2018, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
$30 won't cover even pickup service. Return shipping for a subwoofer like the FV18 (UPS Freight) could cost between $200-400$ depending on the extra services you need/want (pickup, lift gate, etc).
Eeks, hefty returning shipping charge!!! Nonetheless, $30 cheaper is $30 cheaper. Any bit counts in my eyes.

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post #32 of 1926 Old 10-22-2018, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
Eeks, hefty returning shipping charge!!! Nonetheless, $30 cheaper is $30 cheaper. Any bit counts in my eyes.


Shipped weight is $180 lbs. Sub itself is about 160lbs.


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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
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post #33 of 1926 Old 10-22-2018, 02:31 PM
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You should have tested the 2400 with the LF at different levels. You jacked it up which makes it very ULF heavy in a very heavy ULF room and why it did not decay. It was not a clarity issue, it was just a much boosted low end. I have the LF adjust on my speakerpower amp and it is on minimum due to my room and subs.
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post #34 of 1926 Old 10-22-2018, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
You should have tested the 2400 with the LF at different levels. You jacked it up which makes it very ULF heavy in a very heavy ULF room and why it did not decay. It was not a clarity issue, it was just a much boosted low end. I have the LF adjust on my speakerpower amp and it is on minimum due to my room and subs.

If you read my write up a bit more closely you will see I mentioned that we played with LFA at all levels. The guy with me was the owner of the sub. Marc also has this sub and actually had predicated this and he was correct.



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post #35 of 1926 Old 10-22-2018, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
IME, the TR has to do with THD, especially 2nd order distortion. The added weight has to do with lower extension.
Some truth to that. One of the ways to lower Fs on a driver is to increase the Mms. The Mms on the JTR 118HT driver is 253 grams, the 2400 driver is probably close to double that. You add mass to a cone and you need a stronger motor to control it, or servo . A 500 gram cone assembly will have more weight to the sub 25hz area it then a 250 gram assembly. Higher compliance suspensions will add to the weight, harmonics.

A lot of pro drivers, not all, sound thin down low because of the low mms, which means a higher Fs, and they excel at mid bass. sounds like Rythmik found a good compromise for this model.


Nice review @imureh

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post #36 of 1926 Old 10-22-2018, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
Some truth to that. One of the ways to lower Fs on a driver is to increase the Mms. The Mms on the JTR 118HT driver is 253 grams, the 2400 driver is probably close to double that. You add mass to a cone and you need a stronger motor to control it, or servo . A 500 gram cone assembly will have more weight to the sub 25hz area it then a 250 gram assembly. Higher compliance suspensions will add to the weight, harmonics.



A lot of pro drivers, not all, sound thin down low because of the low mms, which means a higher Fs, and they excel at mid bass. sounds like Rythmik found a good compromise for this model.





Nice review @imureh


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post #37 of 1926 Old 10-22-2018, 04:07 PM
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Nice review, Ray.

The FV18 was certainly my favorite at the GTG. I liked the 2400 as well—these are two great subs we're talking about—but the FV18 just had a depth and clarity advantage that brought it a notch higher for me.

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post #38 of 1926 Old 10-22-2018, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
Some truth to that. One of the ways to lower Fs on a driver is to increase the Mms. The Mms on the JTR 118HT driver is 253 grams, the 2400 driver is probably close to double that.
The Cap 2400 driver's MMS is 337 grams.

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post #39 of 1926 Old 10-22-2018, 05:35 PM
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Did you get frequency response graphs to compare the differences? I don’t question the opinions and don’t doubt the FV18 being a great sub. I am curious on the whys.

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post #40 of 1926 Old 10-22-2018, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Subwoofer comparisons and impressions

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Did you get frequency response graphs to compare the differences? I don’t question the opinions and don’t doubt the FV18 being a great sub. I am curious on the whys.


We did of the 118, v1801 and FV18 that I posted above. Did not do so when Todd brought sub over. I took a FR and looked pretty good with 115db at 10hz for the 2400 but did not save it.

You can talk to Marc as he was right with his assessment and tell you his reasoning.


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post #41 of 1926 Old 10-22-2018, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
IME, the TR has to do with THD, especially 2nd order distortion.
This would be my layman's hunch as well.
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post #42 of 1926 Old 10-22-2018, 08:48 PM
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Excellent write up @imureh . I responded earlier but deleted my original post as it sounded too much like a PSA fanboy which wasn't intentional.

I took away several things from your post that you seldom hear on the forums.

1. "Too Much" really does exist. While the 2400 ULF is the biggest, most expensive, highest performing sub in your audition, the way it interacts with your particular room resulted in it not being your favorite choice. Having too much output can have a negative impact on the sound quality in a particular room.

2. Bigger and more expensive subs don't always translate to being better in a particular room, but size does matter with ported subs.

3. If you hadn't experienced what you were missing with the V1801s, you could likely have continued to be happy with your previous setup. Sometimes ignorance is bliss and a big money saver.

4. The fact that you are in a smallish sealed room and on a suspended floor plays a huge role in the performance you can get from a subwoofer. I think the suspended floor is one of the most overlooked factors in achieving ULF bliss. It is impossible to get a thick concrete slab to transfer that ULF energy like a suspended floor.

5. Sealed subwoofers can be excellent performers but do require more power to achieve similar output levels to ported subs which can be a problem if you don't have sufficient electrical service in the room.

Thanks again for taking the time to provide your impressions. It sounds like Rhythmic may have a real contender for the best all around home theater subwoofer with the FV18 paper cone. Anyone that has the space for a larger subwoofer and the budget should have it near the top of their list.

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post #43 of 1926 Old 10-22-2018, 09:11 PM
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The results have more to do with the room which was said. All small sealed rooms are not the same. A sub with too much output can be turned down. The whole clarity thing is usually a result of frequency discrepancies or room interactions. The 2400 maybe needed to be in a different location but that does not matter if one location is available. You guys should have done this blind, results are usually all over the place and not what you might think. On a wooden floor it takes much more careful setup and placement to not excite that floor too much and cause all sorts of noises in room. I actually prefer concrete floors to my wooden riser.

Having said all that what matters is finding something that you like in your room and be happy with it. Being cheaper and better looking is just icing. Congrats!
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post #44 of 1926 Old 10-22-2018, 09:17 PM
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Hey all,

I was Ray’s partner in crime if you will. Some might even say I’m to blame for his recent endevours but I’m not going to name names! Ray has been kind enough to include me in his journey on a personal level and was instrumental in the recent Houtson GTG and it’s been a fun ride. Although I think Ray is glad to be done with the journey.

I’m sure a number of people have said this on the forum before but......the right sub for the right room. As I’ve had the opportunity to hear a number of subs in different rooms, this statement rings even more true to me. I have the 2400-10ulf, I love it, I can’t imagine any sub sounding better (although a little birdie is going to drop off an fv25 soon) it is BAD-A$$ in my room and I have duals. By all accounts and opinions the 2400 is one of the best subs you can buy, but.......it is not the best sub for every room or everyone’s preference. Repeat, this sub is wicked good in my room. When I brought it to Rays to help him decide, it did not sound as good to me. Was it bad, no, but the bass just hung around, bloated, not accrurate, lacking clarity if you will. It was honestly too much for the room, even when we lowered the LFA. Brought it back to my room and BAM, tight, accurate, punchy and most importantly powerful and violent with the right amount and feel of TR. It seemed worlds different in my room. Which leads me to this, the 118 was super fun in Rays room. TR out the A$$ but once compared to the FV18, it just lacked that certain depth. But OMG, the mid-bass on the 118 is stellar. The nice thing about the FV 18 is the ability to adjust to your tastes. Once we played around a little bit, the TR can be coaked out and it sounded amazing in his room. Ray did take a lot of graphs to compare but honestly, I was just using my ears which is very unscientific but that is how I like to roll. He did compare everything based on his original post but in the end we did play around a little bit......but honestly.....aren’t we all still playing a little bit with whatever subs we have?

The FV18 is the right sub for his room!

Todd

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post #45 of 1926 Old 10-22-2018, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucks0 View Post

I took away several things from your post that you seldom hear on the forums.

1. "Too Much" really does exist. While the 2400 ULF is the biggest, most expensive, highest performing sub in your audition, the way it interacts with your particular room resulted in it not being your favorite choice. Having too much output can have a negative impact on the sound quality in a particular room.
I'd agree with your middle sentence, but that sentence has little or nothing to do with the first and last sentence, neither of which I see as a takeaway from the OP's write up.
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post #46 of 1926 Old 10-22-2018, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by toddct View Post
(although a little birdie is going to drop off an fv25 soon)
Really? When? This will be an interesting comparison that I’d like to hear about. Please do tell, Todd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddct View Post
By all accounts and opinions the 2400 is one of the best subs you can buy, but.......it is not the best sub for every room or everyone’s preference. Repeat, this sub is wicked good in my room. When I brought it to Rays to help him decide, it did not sound as good to me. Was it bad, no, but the bass just hung around, bloated, not accrurate, lacking clarity if you will. It was honestly too much for the room, even when we lowered the LFA.
Todd
Sound like the same reasons Ray didn’t like the Cap1400 when he auditioned at his place last year. Doesn’t the Cap1400 use the same or similar driver as the 2400/2400ulf/4000ulf? I also notice the thickness heavy weight sound from the 2400ulf 14hz version, 10hz version and the 4000ulf. Perhaps that thickness heavy weight sound is the characteristic of the driver?
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post #47 of 1926 Old 10-22-2018, 10:32 PM
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but I thought all subs sound the same

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post #48 of 1926 Old 10-23-2018, 12:09 AM
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Excuse my ignorance, but did Rythmik stop selling the FV18 with an aluminum driver? If not, and the paper cone is an option, what advantage does it offer? I would assume aluminum would be more ridged. Thanks in advance
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post #49 of 1926 Old 10-23-2018, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by TommyTom83 View Post
Excuse my ignorance, but did Rythmik stop selling the FV18 with an aluminum driver? If not, and the paper cone is an option, what advantage does it offer? I would assume aluminum would be more ridged. Thanks in advance
The big difference is a 3 db increase in max SPL in the mid bass, I believe at a cost of slightly more distortion. I think the sound signature is the same, with maybe a little more TR. The only statement I'm sure of is the + 3 db.

They are still selling the aluminum driver one, but I don't know their future plans for it. Probably sell both as long as both sell.
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post #50 of 1926 Old 10-23-2018, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toddct View Post
I was just using my ears which is very unscientific but that is how I like to roll.
This should be the most important way to measure audio systems. While graphs can be very helpful, they should never trump what our ears are telling us. We listen with our ears, not our eyes.
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post #51 of 1926 Old 10-23-2018, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
The big difference is a 3 db increase in max SPL in the mid bass, I believe at a cost of slightly more distortion. I think the sound signature is the same, with maybe a little more TR. The only statement I'm sure of is the + 3 db.

They are still selling the aluminum driver one, but I don't know their future plans for it. Probably sell both as long as both sell.
The FV18 will be available with SW1825 (paper cone) and DS1820 (aluminum cone) at the same price. Right now paper cone is not in stock as we already sold the 4 we had. We have more SW1825 paper cone drivers coming in November container.
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post #52 of 1926 Old 10-23-2018, 11:54 AM
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@imureh , I've enjoyed following your sub journey. Congrats on landing on the perfect combo!

Question: were you guys ever able to quantify the TR results with Vibsensor in any of your auditions you did? Not doubting the gains at all, it just provides more depth to the conversation.
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post #53 of 1926 Old 10-23-2018, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Really? When? This will be an interesting comparison that I’d like to hear about. Please do tell, Todd.


Sound like the same reasons Ray didn’t like the Cap1400 when he auditioned at his place last year. Doesn’t the Cap1400 use the same or similar driver as the 2400/2400ulf/4000ulf? I also notice the thickness heavy weight sound from the 2400ulf 14hz version, 10hz version and the 4000ulf. Perhaps that thickness heavy weight sound is the characteristic of the driver?
Brian and Enrico have offered to let me try out/demo the FV25. Not sure when exactly this will happen but I will keep you posted. I'll probably do a mini-GTG with Enrico, Ray and maybe a couple of other interested people. It will be interesting to pit these 2 bad boys in a friendly comparison. I was down these 2 in my own search so I'm looking forward to the opportunity.

Stay tuned!

The 2400ulf is a little different (but similar) than the 1400 driver. I'm not quite sure what the difference is, I'm sure some of the other JTR guys know. May also be a combination of the xmax, dsp, and powerful amp..........? What I do know is that the weight in Ray's room is different than in my room, at least to my ears. Sounds much better and the bass has separation, it's powerful and violent when needed but still subtle and detailed when it's not needed. In his sealed room, the separation wasn't as good and the frequencies kind of blended together. Again, that's what I heard. The difference is a little difficult to describe.

Todd

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post #54 of 1926 Old 10-23-2018, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Appreciate the kind words. I really do hope people find this useful. It was quite an experience.
I just want to publicly say thanks to Ray for being so very helpful... his subwoofer journey has been great to follow. I had a ton of questions so I reached out to Ray over PM and long story short we ended up talking on the phone for almost an hour the other day. Thanks again Ray for taking the time to answer all my questions.

The ID subwoofer market has changed so much in the past five years. Five years ago the 15" subs were considered big. Then the 18" subs came out and now in the past year or two we have these newer 18" ported subs with low port tunes that can dig deep. What's not to like?

Originally I didn't really care about pursuing extension all that much because I always felt like it was really expensive to chase with sealed subs and there is always the limited content issue. But these new ported subs from JTR and Rhythmik are game changers. It seems to me that low teen to single digit extension is much easier to achieve now.

I really like PSA but it appears they aren't too interested in pursuing this new market of deep hitting ported subs which is a shame because I think its shaping up to be an important market that is attracting many people (I know it has my full attention right now). This is especially true when you consider the cost of Rythmik's FV18. I have a pretty large room (about 5200+ cuft) but it sounds to me like dual FV18's could handle the space with little issue (I think?). And dual FV18's are less now than my dual V3601's cost so IMO that's a really good price for that much sub (and I love my V3601's but that extension on these newer ported subs is just too tempting to ignore).

Anyway, after talking to Ray I really want to try out the FV18's... But sadly I can't because my cash flow is all tied up for awhile. I would also love to try the 2400 ULF but my room really needs duals due to poor response and two of those just can't happen right now. The FV18's are more likely to happen but I haven't figured out how. Having said that I've been lying in bed at night trying to come up with a way to make it work. So far I can't put together a plan that won't land me in a divorce but I'm still conspiring.

Anyway, thanks again Ray.

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post #55 of 1926 Old 10-23-2018, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
The Cap 2400 driver's MMS is 337 grams.
Just curious where you got that from, always thought it was a variation of another driver.

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Last edited by Gorilla Killa; 10-23-2018 at 02:35 PM.
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post #56 of 1926 Old 10-23-2018, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
Just curious where you got that from, always thought it was a Fi SP4 variation.
It is listed on product page under features: http://jtrspeakers.com/captivator-2400.html




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post #57 of 1926 Old 10-23-2018, 02:58 PM
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Odd, none of that shows up on my end. Your first post says 337g which I thought was kinda low. 377g is still low compared to other low Fs drivers.
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post #58 of 1926 Old 10-23-2018, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toddct View Post
The 2400ulf is a little different (but similar) than the 1400 driver. I'm not quite sure what the difference is, I'm sure some of the other JTR guys know. May also be a combination of the xmax, dsp, and powerful amp..........? What I do know is that the weight in Ray's room is different than in my room, at least to my ears. Sounds much better and the bass has separation, it's powerful and violent when needed but still subtle and detailed when it's not needed. In his sealed room, the separation wasn't as good and the frequencies kind of blended together. Again, that's what I heard. The difference is a little difficult to describe.

Todd
Below are the difference between the 1400 driver and the 2400/2400ULF/4000ULF driver AFAIK:

The 1400 driver has 2 voice coils driven by 2 Ice Power amp modules of 700W each (2*700W=1400W)

The 2400 driver is driven by the Torpedo amp (2400W or 4000W)

The impedance are also different.

The drivers have the following in common: 33mm x-max (each way), +4″ peak to peak, extremely high motor strength of 256 (bl^2/re) and low moving mass of 377 grams (MMS).

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
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post #59 of 1926 Old 10-23-2018, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Anyway, after talking to Ray I really want to try out the FV18's... But sadly I can't because my cash flow is all tied up for awhile. I would also love to try the 2400 ULF but my room really needs duals due to poor response and two of those just can't happen right now. The FV18's are more likely to happen but I haven't figured out how. Having said that I've been lying in bed at night trying to come up with a way to make it work. So far I can't put together a plan that won't land me in a divorce but I'm still conspiring.

Anyway, thanks again Ray.
You can always sell your V3601 subs to fund another. But then you would be subless for a little bit.
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post #60 of 1926 Old 10-23-2018, 06:26 PM
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Enjoyed reading this thread although I'm interested only in sealed subs. But was just wondering if any other things changed about the FV18's new paper driver? For instance, is the surround still rubber or was it changed to foam?

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