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post #691 of 1774 Old 01-18-2019, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
Yeah that's what I thought. Very nice.





BEQ? Is that Behringer EQ? I'll post my FR later today once I get home.

Such a nice thread and great members here.


Sorry, BEQ is bass EQ for filtered movies. There is a whole thread on it. Definitely something to look into especially with subs that play deep. I am glad you are finding this thread useful. That was really the intent and help share my experience and have others share theirs who have heard different brands and how they think they compare etc etc.

Here are some pics for you






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post #692 of 1774 Old 01-18-2019, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Sorry, BEQ is bass EQ for filtered movies. There is a whole thread on it. Definitely something to look into especially with subs that play deep. I am glad you are finding this thread useful. That was really the intent and help share my experience and have others share theirs who have heard different brands and how they think they compare etc etc.

Here are some pics for you ...



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Niceee. What's your room dimensions again? May be good to put in your signature since you own a HUGE thread now . Would be a common question people ask.
Oh yeah I came that thread. I need to look into it.
Just one thing: If you can cover this carpet with Black Velvet, the experience of watching movies will drastically change. I have my ceiling/side walls/floor, all covered with Black Velvet up MLP. Pitch Black.
Wowwww these subs don't look very big (in a good way) and yet dig so deep.
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post #693 of 1774 Old 01-18-2019, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
Niceee. What's your room dimensions again? May be good to put in your signature since you own a HUGE thread now . Would be a common question people ask.
Oh yeah I came that thread. I need to look into it.
Just one thing: If you can cover this carpet with Black Velvet, the experience of watching movies will drastically change. I have my ceiling/side walls/floor, all covered with Black Velvet up MLP. Pitch Black.
Wowwww these subs don't look very big (in a good way) and yet dig so deep.
Lol, you are spot on about being asked about the room. It has been in my signature for a few months now. May be I should move it up since its not evident...

Those subs look smaller in the pics but they are a handsome sub. Very good looking and the black oak is really pretty. I may be changing the carpet in the room soon so may go with a darker color but yeah I can see that making things better.

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
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post #694 of 1774 Old 01-18-2019, 04:36 PM
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Lol, you are spot on about being asked about the room. It has been in my signature for a few months now. May be I should move it up since its not evident...

Those subs look smaller in the pics but they are a handsome sub. Very good looking and the black oak is really pretty. I may be changing the carpet in the room soon so may go with a darker color but yeah I can see that making things better.
Sorry, I mean t the dimension (LxWxH)
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post #695 of 1774 Old 01-18-2019, 05:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
Sorry, I mean t the dimension (LxWxH)


Oh ok. Yeah. Good idea


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post #696 of 1774 Old 01-20-2019, 02:35 PM
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This is an awesome thread and it’s making it very difficult to not order another FV18. Lol

With the current discount on the rev1 and the sale I’m surprised I haven’t.

My wife and I watched A Quiet Place and she turned and looked at me and asked if I thought this was going to break the house.
A Quiet Place is amazing movie to show off the system. When I watched it with my wife, she also turned to me and asked "Are you happy now". This movie just has amazing bass+sound. I bought it with ATMOS and love it. If only they came make scary movie sound the say way. I think scary movies now have way too much of this all of sudden load sound effect. BTW, I was watching "Bad Times at the El Royale". Only 35 minutes in and twice it scared the sh** out of me .
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post #697 of 1774 Old 01-20-2019, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Now that you've graphed and dialed in your Frequency Response...

The next step is to graph and dial in your Tactile Response. Below is an example of @carp 's FR and TR:



Having a view of both FR and TR will give folks a very good idea of your subwoofer/TR experience in your room. FR alone doesn't give the whole picture.
I can't read that last frequency on FR graph. Is it 100Hz? If yes then @carp has a 10dB boost from his cross over to 50hz and then another 10dB boost from 50Hz to 20? That's a 20dB boost wowwww. Is this how Carp you listen to your system? How big is your room? In my sealed 12x8x21 room, 13-15dB is a crazy level. I have 2x4 acoustic panels hanging on side walls. They are simply sitting on top of 2" wood that I screwed in wall and some of these frames fall off with 13dB boost. 20dB with NF sub as well, my Godness, I can't even imagine how it'd be to watch movie in that room
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post #698 of 1774 Old 01-20-2019, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
A Quiet Place is amazing movie to show off the system. When I watched it with my wife, she also turned to me and asked "Are you happy now". This movie just has amazing bass+sound. I bought it with ATMOS and love it. If only they came make scary movie sound the say way. I think scary movies now have way too much of this all of sudden load sound effect. BTW, I was watching "Bad Times at the El Royale". Only 35 minutes in and twice it scared the sh** out of me .


The nun is pretty amazing for bass and oh **** moments


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post #699 of 1774 Old 01-20-2019, 04:31 PM
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The nun is pretty amazing for bass and oh **** moments


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Nice. Does it have to be a Dolby Atmos version or I can order Blu Ray from Netflix?
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post #700 of 1774 Old 01-21-2019, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
I can't read that last frequency on FR graph. Is it 100Hz? If yes then @carp has a 10dB boost from his cross over to 50hz and then another 10dB boost from 50Hz to 20? That's a 20dB boost wowwww. Is this how Carp you listen to your system? How big is your room? In my sealed 12x8x21 room, 13-15dB is a crazy level. I have 2x4 acoustic panels hanging on side walls. They are simply sitting on top of 2" wood that I screwed in wall and some of these frames fall off with 13dB boost. 20dB with NF sub as well, my Godness, I can't even imagine how it'd be to watch movie in that room

Haha, well... yes and no. That particular boost was for our KC HT crawl in 2017 so I had the subs boosted pretty good. I have used all kinds of different boosts using the minidsp since 2013, I was basically doing my own BEQ based on mood/movie/etc. without anything concrete to guide me. That particular boost measured by Paulo was awesome for the John Wick club scene.

Here is my current "movie default curve". This is the lowest amount of boost that I would use for a movie. As you know sealed subs drop off quite a bit down low so some would be needed just to get it back to flat.










Keep in mind that the above is the boost applied, obviously not the measured response. It looks insane down low, but the boost is handled with the upfront subs because there are so many of them and the boost is also handled by the VNF sub because it's so close.

I'd post a measurement but my Omnimic hasn't been working right for a long time. I think that's a good thing though, for a long time I spend WAYYYY to much time obsessing over measurements and lately I've just been enjoying content.

I have a Yamaha 3060 AVR and it has 12 different scenes that you can change the trims at a touch of a single button that I have programmed into my Harmony Elite remote. Scene 1 sets the sub out trims to -10 which looks like the above curve. Scene 2 sets the sub out trims to -9 and so on, I usually use anything from Scene 6 to Scene 3, meaning that the sub out trims are set to anywhere from -5 to -2 which would raise what you see on the graph by anywere from 5 to 9 db's.

I also use BEQ, and I plug in the numbers exactly how they are posted in the BEQ thread for the Crowsons. However for my subs I play it by ear. I use more Peak than LS because in my house anything from 10hz and down makes my house creak and groan and it takes me out of the movie. The subs give a nice feel down to the mid teens and the Crowsons take over from there. It's not that I set a HPF on the subs or anthing, it's just that the amount of boost from say 10hz and down isn't enough to make my house mad.

The last few months or so I have really lowered the output on the NF quite a bit, and I cross the Crowson at 18hz with a 48 db slope. The result is that I would have no idea that I have a NF sub or Crowsons but at the same time if I turn them off it's obvious. That's where I want to be because even though it is fun to crank up the NF and run the Crowson full range it also takes me out of the movie because I'm just thinking how fun it is that my chair and body are shaking so much.

My room is 17.5x8x23 and I watch movies around -12 give or take 3-4 db's either way.
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post #701 of 1774 Old 01-24-2019, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Haha, well... yes and no. That particular boost was for our KC HT crawl in 2017 so I had the subs boosted pretty good. I have used all kinds of different boosts using the minidsp since 2013, I was basically doing my own BEQ based on mood/movie/etc. without anything concrete to guide me. That particular boost measured by Paulo was awesome for the John Wick club scene.

Here is my current "movie default curve". This is the lowest amount of boost that I would use for a movie. As you know sealed subs drop off quite a bit down low so some would be needed just to get it back to flat.

Keep in mind that the above is the boost applied, obviously not the measured response. It looks insane down low, but the boost is handled with the upfront subs because there are so many of them and the boost is also handled by the VNF sub because it's so close.

I'd post a measurement but my Omnimic hasn't been working right for a long time. I think that's a good thing though, for a long time I spend WAYYYY to much time obsessing over measurements and lately I've just been enjoying content.

I have a Yamaha 3060 AVR and it has 12 different scenes that you can change the trims at a touch of a single button that I have programmed into my Harmony Elite remote. Scene 1 sets the sub out trims to -10 which looks like the above curve. Scene 2 sets the sub out trims to -9 and so on, I usually use anything from Scene 6 to Scene 3, meaning that the sub out trims are set to anywhere from -5 to -2 which would raise what you see on the graph by anywere from 5 to 9 db's.

I also use BEQ, and I plug in the numbers exactly how they are posted in the BEQ thread for the Crowsons. However for my subs I play it by ear. I use more Peak than LS because in my house anything from 10hz and down makes my house creak and groan and it takes me out of the movie. The subs give a nice feel down to the mid teens and the Crowsons take over from there. It's not that I set a HPF on the subs or anthing, it's just that the amount of boost from say 10hz and down isn't enough to make my house mad.

The last few months or so I have really lowered the output on the NF quite a bit, and I cross the Crowson at 18hz with a 48 db slope. The result is that I would have no idea that I have a NF sub or Crowsons but at the same time if I turn them off it's obvious. That's where I want to be because even though it is fun to crank up the NF and run the Crowson full range it also takes me out of the movie because I'm just thinking how fun it is that my chair and body are shaking so much.

My room is 17.5x8x23 and I watch movies around -12 give or take 3-4 db's either way.
Dangggg. Not sure why I wasn't notified of the post. Just read it. Your room is a bit bigger than mine. Mine is 12x8x21. I wish mine was 17' wide. Would have been great. My room is also completely sealed. Here is an interesting discovery I very recently made.
I have Yamaha 3050 but I'm sure it has a lot of features common to yours. I have been using Dirac since it was available form minidsp. The issue that I always had was that my LCR would sound boomer around 100-150Hz even with flat FR for L/C/R. As soon as I got close to 13dB boost in bass (with 80 CO), I'd start hearing that. REW didn't show any sign. The only solution I had was to keep FR for sub above 70Hz vrey low. So even wen I had 14dB of bass boost, I would have like 3-5dB around 80-100 until very recently.
I made a switch to the Bass Management plugin from minidsp and the results are just stunning. I don't have that issue anymore at all. The plugin requires to make all speakers as large in AVR so the plugin can take care of the bass management. Then you set the slopes in plugins. After I followed the instructions (thx to Austis Jerry who put the guide), it was a complete game changer for. The scenes where I was hearing the boominess changed to punchy bass. The tactile that I get now on my suspended floor is crazy. I'm currently using 11dB curve and its amazing. Its as if for whatever reason before the .1 was being directed to LCR and was causing it to make that boominess. Now that everything is directed properly, bass is very good and tactile is just crazy. The bullet shots in John Wick was shaking my seat every time. My acoustic panels on side wall are sitting on a 2" wood piece that I mounted on wall. They fell off during one scene where he shot the stairway made of glass. To top this off, the speakers have way better dynamics (4722N). I know that you have the same speakers and they are great but for what ever reason, my 3050 was not directing the .1 bass channel properly I think. I really don't know the reason but after implementing the bass management from minidsp, things have changed a lot.
I have tried many times before to get NF sub working but it didn't work out well. Now I think it will work but then I get so much tactile already that I don't need that for NF. May be for more chest punch.
Do you use Dirac? If not, you garra give it a shot.
Also, I noticed that your FR is flat from 50Hz above? Any specific reason?
Just took C+S for you guys. Carp, time for you to get the mic. Look at this FR. There is a good drop after 19Hz. Don't even have a flat FR below 20Hz but still my 2 Mini Marty with UXL18 drivers deliver. They are 50" away from MLP on each side.

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post #702 of 1774 Old 01-25-2019, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
Dangggg. Not sure why I wasn't notified of the post. Just read it. Your room is a bit bigger than mine. Mine is 12x8x21. I wish mine was 17' wide. Would have been great. My room is also completely sealed. Here is an interesting discovery I very recently made.
I have Yamaha 3050 but I'm sure it has a lot of features common to yours. I have been using Dirac since it was available form minidsp. The issue that I always had was that my LCR would sound boomer around 100-150Hz even with flat FR for L/C/R. As soon as I got close to 13dB boost in bass (with 80 CO), I'd start hearing that. REW didn't show any sign. The only solution I had was to keep FR for sub above 70Hz vrey low. So even wen I had 14dB of bass boost, I would have like 3-5dB around 80-100 until very recently.
I made a switch to the Bass Management plugin from minidsp and the results are just stunning. I don't have that issue anymore at all. The plugin requires to make all speakers as large in AVR so the plugin can take care of the bass management. Then you set the slopes in plugins. After I followed the instructions (thx to Austis Jerry who put the guide), it was a complete game changer for. The scenes where I was hearing the boominess changed to punchy bass. The tactile that I get now on my suspended floor is crazy. I'm currently using 11dB curve and its amazing. Its as if for whatever reason before the .1 was being directed to LCR and was causing it to make that boominess. Now that everything is directed properly, bass is very good and tactile is just crazy. The bullet shots in John Wick was shaking my seat every time. My acoustic panels on side wall are sitting on a 2" wood piece that I mounted on wall. They fell off during one scene where he shot the stairway made of glass. To top this off, the speakers have way better dynamics (4722N). I know that you have the same speakers and they are great but for what ever reason, my 3050 was not directing the .1 bass channel properly I think. I really don't know the reason but after implementing the bass management from minidsp, things have changed a lot.
I have tried many times before to get NF sub working but it didn't work out well. Now I think it will work but then I get so much tactile already that I don't need that for NF. May be for more chest punch.
Do you use Dirac? If not, you garra give it a shot.
Also, I noticed that your FR is flat from 50Hz above? Any specific reason?
Just took C+S for you guys. Carp, time for you to get the mic. Look at this FR. There is a good drop after 19Hz. Don't even have a flat FR below 20Hz but still my 2 Mini Marty with UXL18 drivers deliver. They are 50" away from MLP on each side.

It that bass management plug in only for the 88A?

I used to have an 88A. I loved Dirac and thought it was an improvement for sure. However.. 2 things bugged me which caused me to sell it. For one, I was planning on going Atmos and I knew I wouldn't want to mess with the complexity of getting a second 88A to cover all the speakers and more importantly I really started to hate the hiss from the 4722n's. I couldn't hear it at all with content playing but it's surprising how often I had no content and could hear that hiss. Now... I know if I bought a very expensive amp(s) for the LRC that would have fixed it but that wasn't in the budget at the time.

Eventually I will come back to Dirac. However, I did a ton of experimenting with manual EQ for the speakers and I have separate settings for both music and movies that I really like and haven't touched it for over a year which is unheard of for me, so I'm in no rush to lose that. I know that it's a no no to do EQ above schroeder but I don't like sticking to hard and fast rules when I find something I like.

My bass isn't usually flat from 50hz and up. The setting I posted is my bassline for the most boomiest of movies possible and I hardly ever use that. Instead I bump up the avr sub out trims by anywere from 5 to 9 db's which I can do on the fly using the Yamaha scenes. There are some movies that I boost by 12 db's but that's as rare as not boosting at all. So, my bass from 50 and up probably looks real similar to yours (nice response btw!) and the low bass probably does too, because I have sealed subs and they drop off quite a bit unlike you ported subs. So, some of that crazy boosting is just to get the bass back to even and then the rest of it is for the nice house curve/boost.

That John Wick curve has a typical (for me) 7.5 ish db boost around 50hz and hotter than normal 20 ish db boost around 20hz. Lots of fun, like you say.
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post #703 of 1774 Old 01-26-2019, 12:01 PM
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It that bass management plug in only for the 88A?

I used to have an 88A. I loved Dirac and thought it was an improvement for sure. However.. 2 things bugged me which caused me to sell it. For one, I was planning on going Atmos and I knew I wouldn't want to mess with the complexity of getting a second 88A to cover all the speakers and more importantly I really started to hate the hiss from the 4722n's. I couldn't hear it at all with content playing but it's surprising how often I had no content and could hear that hiss. Now... I know if I bought a very expensive amp(s) for the LRC that would have fixed it but that wasn't in the budget at the time.

Eventually I will come back to Dirac. However, I did a ton of experimenting with manual EQ for the speakers and I have separate settings for both music and movies that I really like and haven't touched it for over a year which is unheard of for me, so I'm in no rush to lose that. I know that it's a no no to do EQ above schroeder but I don't like sticking to hard and fast rules when I find something I like.

My bass isn't usually flat from 50hz and up. The setting I posted is my bassline for the most boomiest of movies possible and I hardly ever use that. Instead I bump up the avr sub out trims by anywere from 5 to 9 db's which I can do on the fly using the Yamaha scenes. There are some movies that I boost by 12 db's but that's as rare as not boosting at all. So, my bass from 50 and up probably looks real similar to yours (nice response btw!) and the low bass probably does too, because I have sealed subs and they drop off quite a bit unlike you ported subs. So, some of that crazy boosting is just to get the bass back to even and then the rest of it is for the nice house curve/boost.

That John Wick curve has a typical (for me) 7.5 ish db boost around 50hz and hotter than normal 20 ish db boost around 20hz. Lots of fun, like you say.
Yeah that mass management plug is only for 88A and costs $100.00 but totally worth it.
I hear you. The hiss can be annoying but in my case, it has never bothered me. I guess its not that loud in my case. I mean its not something that gets my attention (until now ). May be I'll start paying attention to it now lolllsss. As for amp, I'm using Emotiva 7 channel amp and its very good and quiet.
I'd ask you to share FR for movies/music but I remember that you'd need to get a mic first .

Mannnn only if I was living closer to your place. Would be fun to listen to your system and learn from it and share my system to show you some other stuff. Need to find some here in NJ.

I was watching Transformer The Last Knight. With 14dB total boost (20Hz 14dB --> 50Hz10dB --> 80Hz 6dB) curve, I was getting a lot of TR. The only thing I'm missing right now is this warm and loud bass. Not sure what I'm doing wrong but the blasts had a lot of TR but not somuch of warm/loud sound.

@imureh mentioned that this is the sound he's getting from his new F18. Wondering if its the driver thing?
May be it has to do with my subs sitting only 60" away from MLP. May be moving them to front will produce more sound and less TR. I have only 12' wide room with 3 4722N on the front. If I move Mini Marty on the front then all of them will be hugging each other. Plus I'm sure that I'll loose the TR I'm getting with subs being 60" away from MLP. errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. In the mean time, I'm going to try to see if there is an FR that'd help bring that sound.

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post #704 of 1774 Old 01-26-2019, 01:48 PM
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^^^ @harrisu - You might try more subs for the front (or somewhere Far Field) in addition to your Near Field subs that are fairly close behind you. I find with mine, at least with the ones really close behind (Very Near Field), that they bring a ton of TR, but I don't get near the big bass sound (full/fat whatever you want to call it) and weight from them as I do with the subs farther away, on the sides or up upfront. That is why both is a good Idea IMO and you can dial in what you want TR and sound wise from using both of these together. I run mine about 50/50 VNF/FF ATM and really like the TR to sound ratio.

IME I've found that ..

-VNF/NF gives way more TR but less big bass sound (thinner sounding but way more feel)
- FF gives more full bass sound (and even pressure/weight) but less TR
- Combo of both can be great

Maybe this can help you get what your after and give you both (great TR and that big, warm loud bass sound that you want as well)
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1400cuft sealed room, suspended floor | SY Triple Black Velvet for Blackout | Denon AVR-X6300H - 7.6.4 Atmos | KEF Q Series Speakers | GIK Treatments | Oppo 203 | Epson 5040 4K | Eyes 7' to 120" AT Seymour Screen | 6x 18" Sealed DIY Subs (4x SI DS4-18s & 2x UM22-18s) | 6x Crowson MAs | 4x BK LFEs | BOSS 'Sub Riser' 6x JBL12s | MiniDSP 10x10HD
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post #705 of 1774 Old 01-26-2019, 02:55 PM
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^^^ @harrisu - You might try more subs for the front (or somewhere Far Field) in addition to your Near Field subs that are fairly close behind you. I find with mine, at least with the ones really close behind (Very Near Field), that they bring a ton of TR, but I don't get near the big bass sound (full/fat whatever you want to call it) and weight from them as I do with the subs farther away, on the sides or up upfront. That is why both is a good Idea IMO and you can dial in what you want TR and sound wise from using both of these together. I run mine about 50/50 VNF/FF ATM and really like the TR to sound ratio.

IME I've found that ..

-VNF/NF gives way more TR but less big bass sound (thinner sounding but way more feel)
- FF gives more full bass sound (and even pressure/weight) but less TR
- Combo of both can be great

Maybe this can help you get what your after and give you both (great TR and that big, warm loud bass sound that you want as well)
Always love reading you posts :-). Don't know if you remember but you were a great help when I was trying to get a sub VNF working. If there is one person we'd have to choose to be the master of NF subs placement, it has to be you. I think you have tried all the different combinations and know how subs work NF and VNF. If you think that NF subs won't provide that full bass sound then it must be the case.

Now you are playing with my head here lollsss. If I do move one sub NF, It would require to move all the front speakers. Damnnn these 4722N speakers are big. I really wonder if I can just get smaller speakers and they'd do the same as these do because I cross them over at 80Hz (currently 100). What's the point to have 2 15" drivers in these speakers when I run them flat right. @carp , what do you think? you have these speakers as well. I keep wondering if I can just get 3 DiySoundGroup HTM 12 and see how they sound. Might not even hear the difference.

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post #706 of 1774 Old 01-26-2019, 03:42 PM
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Not sure if this is any good but my whole apt is rattling like crazy and a glass of water felt off the countertop. Pair of F12SEs + FV25HP. Movies: BR 2049 and EoT.



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Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio - Dialing In Rythmik Audio Subwoofers - REW for macOS
Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | 92" Stewart ST100 | Sony VW295ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |
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post #707 of 1774 Old 01-26-2019, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
Always love reading you posts :-). Don't know if you remember but you were a great help when I was trying to get a sub VNF working. If there is one person we'd have to choose to be the master of NF subs placement, it has to be you. I think you have tried all the different combinations and know how subs work NF and VNF. If you think that NF subs won't provide that full bass sound then it must be the case.

Now you are playing with my head here lollsss. If I do move one sub NF, It would require to move all the front speakers. Damnnn these 4722N speakers are big. I really wonder if I can just get smaller speakers and they'd do the same as these do because I cross them over at 80Hz (currently 100). What's the point to have 2 15" drivers in these speakers when I run them flat right. @carp , what do you think? you have these speakers as well. I keep wondering if I can just get 3 DiySoundGroup HTM 12 and see how they sound. Might not even hear the difference.
To me the highs in these (upgraded CD) sound better than almost anything I have heard, the exception being that IMO they are on par with the JTR's (I used to own 212's and then 215 RT's). For movies they sound ridiculously good to me. It sounds so... big and theater like if that makes sense and they give up nothing for music too. Ever since I could afford spekaers (mid 90's) I have been on a never ending search for my perfect speaker and this is the longest I've gone without even wondering what something else would sound like in my room.

Another reason is the stupid mid-bass headroom in the 15" drivers. I know you are crossing them at 80 or 100 but I still think it matters.

A few years back when I was borrowing some 4722's I did some testing with one of those disks that had real recordings of fireworks. Those quick hitting white explosion fireworks that aren't much to look at but when you seem them live you feel it in your chest. Well... I could re-create that feeling better with the JBL's than with 8 18" subs. Now.. this was before I got the nearfield sub but still. I was impressed. Does it matter when you have them crossed at at 80? I would guess that yes it does, at least a little bit or in my case that means enough to matter. If I can find that disk I should try it again with different crossovers on the JBL's and see what happens.

Also, sometimes with music I am in the mood to turn off the subs and go full range with the JBL's. Love that lively punchy sound.

Ehhh.. this is all just me though, my ears might like them more than yours. Do you have the upgraded drivers?
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post #708 of 1774 Old 01-26-2019, 04:00 PM
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One more thing, I rarely run my 4722n's flat. I like to boost the bass starting between 200 and 250 hz and have a very gradually rising curve from there.
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post #709 of 1774 Old 01-26-2019, 04:25 PM
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Here is EoT following Tony and Ray measurement recommendations with a 5 lb. bag of rice on top and no case on my iPhone XS. Volume was -10dB from reference. Subwoofers: Pair of Rythmik Audio F12SEs + Rythmik Audio FV25HP. Room is 2000 cu ft.

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Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio - Dialing In Rythmik Audio Subwoofers - REW for macOS
Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | 92" Stewart ST100 | Sony VW295ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |

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Subwoofer comparisons and impressions

@SBuger , what are you thoughts about Enrico’s graphs. Quite different than yours, mine and Tony’s.

Could it be the concrete floor? All of us are on a suspended floor.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser
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post #711 of 1774 Old 01-26-2019, 04:48 PM
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Just to be fair, one of the F12SEs is right next to my seat And I think that's the guy who is giving me such high TR below 10Hz. I cannot do more measurements for today because I have the risk of getting law enforcement knocking my door any time soon
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Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio - Dialing In Rythmik Audio Subwoofers - REW for macOS
Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | 92" Stewart ST100 | Sony VW295ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
To me the highs in these (upgraded CD) sound better than almost anything I have heard, the exception being that IMO they are on par with the JTR's (I used to own 212's and then 215 RT's). For movies they sound ridiculously good to me. It sounds so... big and theater like if that makes sense and they give up nothing for music too. Ever since I could afford spekaers (mid 90's) I have been on a never ending search for my perfect speaker and this is the longest I've gone without even wondering what something else would sound like in my room.

Another reason is the stupid mid-bass headroom in the 15" drivers. I know you are crossing them at 80 or 100 but I still think it matters.

A few years back when I was borrowing some 4722's I did some testing with one of those disks that had real recordings of fireworks. Those quick hitting white explosion fireworks that aren't much to look at but when you seem them live you feel it in your chest. Well... I could re-create that feeling better with the JBL's than with 8 18" subs. Now.. this was before I got the nearfield sub but still. I was impressed. Does it matter when you have them crossed at at 80? I would guess that yes it does, at least a little bit or in my case that means enough to matter. If I can find that disk I should try it again with different crossovers on the JBL's and see what happens.

Also, sometimes with music I am in the mood to turn off the subs and go full range with the JBL's. Love that lively punchy sound.

Ehhh.. this is all just me though, my ears might like them more than yours. Do you have the upgraded drivers?
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One more thing, I rarely run my 4722n's flat. I like to boost the bass starting between 200 and 250 hz and have a very gradually rising curve from there.
Sending PM. This will be a discussion on 4722N unless other members are interested in it?
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post #713 of 1774 Old 01-26-2019, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Just to be fair, one of the F12SEs is right next to my seat And I think that's the guy who is giving me such high TR below 10Hz. I cannot do more measurements for today because I have the risk of getting law enforcement knocking my door any time soon
Waiiiittttt a minute here. How can a F12SEs give you 10Hz????? I just visited Rythmik site briefly and saw that its a 12" driver. How is it digging so deep?
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post #714 of 1774 Old 01-26-2019, 07:52 PM
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Waiiiittttt a minute here. How can a F12SEs give you 10Hz????? I just visited Rythmik site briefly and saw that its a 12" driver. How is it digging so deep?
....because it's a sealed sub.






If you look at the specs on Rythmik's site the F12 is only 2dB down at 14Hz, with some room gain that could easily translate to solid response down to 10Hz (or single digits)
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Frequency Response 14 - 200 Hz (-2 dB @ 14 Hz) with LFE inputs

14 - 100 Hz (-2 dB @ 14 Hz) with LINE IN inputs

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TV: Panasonic P65ST60 AVR: Denon 4311ci Speakers: PSA MTM-210C (Centre), PSA MTM-210 (Left & Right), PSA MT-110 (Surrounds) Subwoofers: Dual Seaton SubMersives
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post #715 of 1774 Old 01-26-2019, 08:12 PM
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....because it's a sealed sub.

If you look at the specs on Rythmik's site the F12 is only 2dB down at 14Hz, with some room gain that could easily translate to solid response down to 10Hz (or single digits)
Still, its only a 12" driver. I never thought a 12" driver would go that deep or is it something magic they are doing inside the box?
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post #716 of 1774 Old 01-26-2019, 08:50 PM
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Still, its only a 12" driver. I never thought a 12" driver would go that deep or is it something magic they are doing inside the box?
No magic. Just a great designed 12" sealed subwoofer in a room with a lot of room gain. Here is my room response with a pair of F12SEs + FV25HP. My room response match my tactile response as well.





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Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio - Dialing In Rythmik Audio Subwoofers - REW for macOS
Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | 92" Stewart ST100 | Sony VW295ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |
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post #717 of 1774 Old 01-26-2019, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
Always love reading you posts :-). Don't know if you remember but you were a great help when I was trying to get a sub VNF working. If there is one person we'd have to choose to be the master of NF subs placement, it has to be you. I think you have tried all the different combinations and know how subs work NF and VNF. If you think that NF subs won't provide that full bass sound then it must be the case.

Now you are playing with my head here lollsss. If I do move one sub NF, It would require to move all the front speakers. Damnnn these 4722N speakers are big. I really wonder if I can just get smaller speakers and they'd do the same as these do because I cross them over at 80Hz (currently 100). What's the point to have 2 15" drivers in these speakers when I run them flat right. @carp , what do you think? you have these speakers as well. I keep wondering if I can just get 3 DiySoundGroup HTM 12 and see how they sound. Might not even hear the difference.
Hey Harrisu, thanks man! yeah I remember, that was mainly back when we were in the Dom's neafield MBM thread huh, back when that thread was going wild lol

Well I don't know that I'd be the master of NF sub placement, but I have done quite a lot of experimenting with it over the last few years or so. But I sure don't claim to know all there is to know about it, so I can't be certain that your NF's wont provide you that full bass sound your looking for. They are not VNF thoug and there is a difference. VNF is considered at least within a drivers diameter with that driver facing into the back of your seat, but I still consider that kind of just NF with VNF being at least half the distance of the driver away from your seat back, but way more so within 1-4" away. From my experiences so far, this is where the subs can really start to sound thinner but still give more TR as well. NF/FF like yours at about 60" away may somewhat too but shouldn't be nearly as much compared to VNF. So that might not be the case with yours at all especially with two spread out a bit (If I'm remembering your sub positions correctly, but probably will help getting some a little farther away in addition for a more full loud bass sound as well if possible.

But don't go replacing your speakers with something else to get it gone, I'm sure those speakers are amazing! I've never had the privilege of hearing them, but sure I would love them from all the wonderful things I've heard about them from folks around here. And yeah, I forget just how big those Martys are sometimes. I built a Johhny sub (smaller version of your full Martys that I now stuff the ports on to match my other sealed subs) and that thing is way bigger than my sealed 4cuft cabs with 18's in them. So that definitely can make placing them harder around the room harder.

If you do eventually move one of your subs farther away, or one or two more in addition to your 2 Near Field I do think it would help, but can't be sure. Your FR looks great, so it should sound pretty good with them both 60" away I would think, with still pretty good TR as well. IDK man, you'll just have to mess with it more, and I'd think some FF subs in the mix (if you can do it without too much problem) would be where I'd start if possible without replacing your awesome 4722N's. This stuff can be so trying sometimes trying to get it to sound and feel like you want. Especially when you reach a certain point and wondering what to do next. Also there are all variables to boot, like room, seating location etc that makes it tougher to know exactly what's going on. I think you'll get there though.

PS ..just saw your PM, will try to reply when i can, might be tomorrow.

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post #718 of 1774 Old 01-26-2019, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
@SBuger , what are you thoughts about Enrico’s graphs. Quite different than yours, mine and Tony’s.

Could it be the concrete floor? All of us are on a suspended floor.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah your right, his graphs don't quite look right to me either (something is funky with them). I think the app may not be working right with his particular Iphone XS. That has been the case before with some phones, I have heard of this before and remember seeing it somewhere in the VS thread as well a while back.

If you look a Enrico's graphs compared to ours, they don't look right, and not because its on concrete instead of suspended floor like ours. (I've done readings on concrete before that look like ours do on suspended floor). It's the way his phone and app is capturing the reading (something is not right). The readings are really sloped down from left to right, and real high under 10hz (on the far left) and climbing even higher at 1 to 0hz (like noise, there shouldn't be anything here below 10hz in the EOT intro) as well as reading low on the right hand side toward 50hz. Also with that FV25 not too far behind his seat (1 to 2' behind right?) he should be getting some pretty strong TR at 20hz and 15hz too (even being on concrete), not just 30hz and 25hz on the EOT intro (in his first readings he posted). Also there is no smaller TR spike at 45hz (and 40hz as well that should be a little smaller than 45hz) either like there should be and I know for sure he should be getting those as well (or at least the 45hz spike) like we are and in the actual PVA graph that we are trying to match our TR with. (I'll post the EOT intro PVA down below for reference). The lines are pretty squiggly too in his first readings, but that is just because he took a little longer reading than 20 second on these, I think it showed 38 seconds or something, but that's fine, he shorted it to the right time in the next EOT reading.

His latest reading doesn't look right either, yeah its showing high TR all the way down to 1hz, but doesn't look right. It should read as 5, well 6-7 actually, distinct spikes on the VS graph, starting right to left as 45hz, 40hz (these first two are smaller ones), then the big hits wiht 30hz, 25hz, 20hz, 15hz and lastly 10hz (which is a very hard one to get a high reading on unless your subs is tuned to 10hz or sealed and the driver VERY close behind the seat back (probably at least like a foot or less a way) or on a suspended floor. Go look at Chucky's EOT VS reading, that JTR4000 is a Beast of a sub tuned at 10hz with the LFA control at max to lift the lower end hitting 120db down at 15hz and 10hz. But his 10hz TR reading is about 20db lower than 30hz and 15hz is about 12db lower. They should be higher than 30hz or at least about equal too or more closely match the actual climbing PVA of EOT intro if that makes sense. You can see his graph HERE @chucky7 - please don't take this the wrong way (I'm not trying to pick on you but yours is a good example), your TR is still very strong down to 10hz (and strong as hell at 25hz and 30hz for being on concrete and one FF sub) and that sub is an absolute Beast that me or anyone would probably love to have. I'm sure 10hz and 15hz was wrecking havoc on your house as well, but still lacked the TR at the MLP seat compared to where it should be at in relation to the 20, 25 and 30hz tones. The point I'm trying to make here is that, even with the most bad ass low tuned subwoofers, its very hard to get the 15hz and especially the 10hz TR up to the levels they should be at in relation to the higher bass frequencies up to 30hz (to accurately follow the PVA graph in relations to all frequencies in the track) with Far Field only and on concrete. Even NF low tuned subs or sealed can struggle with this when pretty close on concrete, where VNF will win out most every time when it comes to moving the seating on the ultra low stuff at 15hz and below. 25hz and 30hz are the easiest TR to obtain, with 15hz and below being the hardest. Sometimes, or most times I would think on concrete, the only way to get these ULF frequencies in TR raised up to where they need to be in relation to the others is to have a sub super close behind the seating and or some Crowson MA's.

I'm not saying Enrico's subs aren't producing some very nice strong TR down at 15 and 10hz on the EOT intro, they very well may, but I don't think his readings are right for some reason with on his particular phone (Iphone XS). @enricoclaudio - you may try restarting your phone and running the EOT VS again to see if the readings look more normal. This happened to me with my Iphone 7 before and a restart of the phone fixed it to make the readings look normal. Also if that doesn't help, you may see if you can run the EOT intro with @imureh 's phone if he is ever over at your place. This will make sure you are getting a good reading if you really want to know what you TR looks like and be accurate. Even with the readings you got, even though I don't think they are right and look funky to me, the 30hz and 25hz look to be about where they should be, nice and strong. But below that, at least to 20hz and 15hz (and 10hz spike as well but that one may still be tough since the FV25 is only tuned to 12hz, leaving the sealed subs to do most of it and room gain), as well as the one at 45hz, should read pretty strong too with the subs you run, especially with the FV25 being fairly close behind your seat, but they don't (at least in nice strong spikes like they should for the 10hz tone, its too funky looking and wide spread for this tone to be right and accurate). Also, make sure your phone is facing forward in your seat (if your not already doing this) so that the axis's will read right as well.

Nice FR too BTW Enrico!!

Here is what we are shooting for with our VS graphs. We want it to look as close as possible to this actual PVA graph of EOT intro (the closer the better for your system to track and produce the TR accurately as possible on all these movies tracks). Here's the PVA to EOT intro ...



My subs only don't track quite as well as they should to the PVA at 15hz (my 15hz is too low in this graph compared to the rest because of something weird with the interaction of the seat and suspended floor, IDK for sure) , but still pretty decent overall for the most part at -10mv (you can see the subs only HERE in my new room, its subs only) but pretty much do with the MA's in the mix with the subs and with a fair amount more intensity (although I didn't show that reading with all combined in the new room). But I'll show one HERE on my last system on concrete when I had my setup downstairs with VNF subs, MAs and BK's all running together. It follows the PVA just about spot on which is what we are aiming for and the what the VS reading should look like. Sometimes we just need MA's in the mix to get those lower frequency TR levels up to par. Granted these are super high intensity TR readings at only -10mv here in this old graph (the TR was mean as hell in my setup down stairs), but we still want those readings to look like this if we can, at whatever intensity levels we can get. That way when we watch movies like the 'Incredible Hulk' or War of the Worlds', or most of the BEQ'd movies that are over 500 in count now , we can feel the TR down low in the ULF frequencies at the correct levels (in relations to the others above ULF) to go along with that nice extended range FR (weight, pressure and fullness as well) like Enrico, Imureh and Chucky have going on.

Phew ...sorry for such a long post guys! Hope all that made sense. Great job on capturing the VS readings Enrico! Lets try it again though if you want with your phone restarted when you get a chance to see if they look more normal, if not then maybe with Imureh's phone that we know works right.
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My "Blacked Out" Home Theater Room
1400cuft sealed room, suspended floor | SY Triple Black Velvet for Blackout | Denon AVR-X6300H - 7.6.4 Atmos | KEF Q Series Speakers | GIK Treatments | Oppo 203 | Epson 5040 4K | Eyes 7' to 120" AT Seymour Screen | 6x 18" Sealed DIY Subs (4x SI DS4-18s & 2x UM22-18s) | 6x Crowson MAs | 4x BK LFEs | BOSS 'Sub Riser' 6x JBL12s | MiniDSP 10x10HD

Last edited by SBuger; 01-27-2019 at 08:29 AM.
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post #719 of 1774 Old 01-27-2019, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
Yeah your right, his graphs don't quite look right to me either (something is funky with them). I think the app may not be working right with his particular Iphone XS. That has been the case before with some phones, I have heard of this before and remember seeing it somewhere in the VS thread as well a while back.

If you look a Enrico's graphs compared to ours, they don't look right, and not because its on concrete instead of suspended floor like ours. (I've done readings on concrete before that look like ours do on suspended floor). It's the way his phone and app is capturing the reading (something is not right). The readings are really sloped down from left to right, and real high under 10hz (on the far left) and climbing even higher at 1 to 0hz (like noise, there shouldn't be anything here below 10hz in the EOT intro) as well as reading low on the right hand side toward 50hz. Also with that FV25 not too far behind his seat (1 to 2' behind right?) he should be getting some pretty strong TR at 20hz and 15hz too (even being on concrete), not just 30hz and 25hz on the EOT intro (in his first readings he posted). Also there is no smaller TR spike at 45hz (and 40hz as well that should be a little smaller than 45hz) either like there should be and I know for sure he should be getting those as well (or at least the 45hz spike) like we are and in the actual PVA graph that we are trying to match our TR with. (I'll post the EOT intro PVA down below for reference). The lines are pretty squiggly too in his first readings, but that is just because he took a little longer reading than 20 second on these, I think it showed 38 seconds or something, but that's fine, he shorted it to the right time in the next EOT reading.

His latest reading doesn't look right either, yeah its showing high TR all the way down to 1hz, but doesn't look right. It should read as 5, well 6-7 actually, distinct spikes on the VS graph, starting right to left as 45hz, 40hz (these first two are smaller ones), then the big hits wiht 30hz, 25hz, 20hz, 15hz and lastly 10hz (which is a very hard one to get a high reading on unless your subs is tuned to 10hz or sealed and the driver VERY close behind the seat back (probably at least like a foot or less a way) or on a suspended floor. Go look at Chucky's EOT VS reading, that JTR4000 is a Beast of a sub tuned at 10hz with the LFA control at max to lift the lower end hitting 120db down at 15hz and 10hz. But his 10hz TR reading is about 20db lower than 30hz and 15hz is about 12db lower. They should be higher than 30hz or at least about equal too or more closely match the actual climbing PVA of EOT intro if that makes sense. You can see his graph HERE @chucky - please don't take this the wrong way (I'm not trying to pick on you but yours is a good example), your TR is still very strong down to 10hz (and strong as hell at 25hz and 30hz for being on concrete and one FF sub) and that sub is an absolute Beast that me or anyone would probably love to have. I'm sure 10hz and 15hz was wrecking havoc on your house as well, but still lacked the TR at the MLP seat compared to where it should be at in relation to the 20, 25 and 30hz tones. The point I'm trying to make here is that, even with the most bad ass low tuned subwoofers, its very hard to get the 15hz and especially the 10hz TR up to the levels they should be at in relation to the higher bass frequencies up to 30hz (to accurately follow the PVA graph in relations to all frequencies in the track) with Far Field only and on concrete. Even NF low tuned subs or sealed can struggle with this when pretty close on concrete, where VNF will win out most every time when it comes to moving the seating on the ultra low stuff at 15hz and below. 25hz and 30hz are the easiest TR to obtain, with 15hz and below being the hardest. Sometimes, or most times I would think on concrete, the only way to get these ULF frequencies in TR raised up to where they need to be in relation to the others is to have a sub super close behind the seating and or some Crowson MA's.

I'm not saying Enrico's subs aren't producing some very nice strong TR down at 15 and 10hz on the EOT intro, they very well may, but I don't think his readings are right for some reason with on his particular phone (Iphone XS). @enricoclaudio - you may try restarting your phone and running the EOT VS again to see if the readings look more normal. This happened to me with my Iphone 7 before and a restart of the phone fixed it to make the readings look normal. Also if that doesn't help, you may see if you can run the EOT intro with @imureh 's phone if he is ever over at your place. This will make sure you are getting a good reading if you really want to know what you TR looks like and be accurate. Even with the readings you got, even though I don't think they are right and look funky to me, the 30hz and 25hz look to be about where they should be, nice and strong. But below that, at least to 20hz and 15hz (and 10hz spike as well but that one may still be tough since the FV25 is only tuned to 12hz, leaving the sealed subs to do most of it and room gain), as well as the one at 45hz, should read pretty strong too with the subs you run, especially with the FV25 being fairly close behind your seat, but they don't (at least in nice strong spikes like they should for the 10hz tone, its too funky looking and wide spread for this tone to be right and accurate). Also, make sure your phone is facing forward in your seat (if your not already doing this) so that the axis's will read right as well.

Nice FR too BTW Enrico!!

Here is what we are shooting for with our VS graphs. We want it to look as close as possible to this actual PVA graph of EOT intro (the closer the better for your system to track and produce the TR accurately as possible on all these movies tracks). Here's the PVA to EOT intro ...



My subs only don't track quite as well as they should to the PVA at 15hz (my 15hz is too low in this graph compared to the rest because of something weird with the interaction of the seat and suspended floor, IDK for sure) , but still pretty decent overall for the most part at -10mv (you can see the subs only HERE in my new room, its subs only) but pretty much do with the MA's in the mix with the subs and with a fair amount more intensity (although I didn't show that reading with all combined in the new room). But I'll show one HERE on my last system on concrete when I had my setup downstairs with VNF subs, MAs and BK's all running together. It follows the PVA just about spot on which is what we are aiming for and the what the VS reading should look like. Sometimes we just need MA's in the mix to get those lower frequency TR levels up to par. Granted these are super high intensity TR readings at only -10mv here in this old graph (the TR was mean as hell in my setup down stairs), but we still want those readings to look like this if we can, at whatever intensity levels we can get. That way when we watch movies like the 'Incredible Hulk' or War of the Worlds', or most of the BEQ'd movies that are over 500 in count now , we can feel the TR down low in the ULF frequencies at the correct levels (in relations to the others above ULF) to go along with that nice extended range FR (weight, pressure and fullness as well) like Enrico, Imureh and Chucky have going on.

Phew ...sorry for such a long post guys! Hope all that made sense. Great job on capturing the VS readings Enrico! Lets try it again though if you want with your phone restarted when you get a chance to see if they look more normal, if not then maybe with Imureh's phone that we know works right.
Thanks for the explanation, @SBuger I'm going to follow your recommendations regarding turning the iPhone XS Off and ON and also try with my iPhone SE and iPhone 6 Plus to see if I get different readings. I will do that most likely on Monday.
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Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio - Dialing In Rythmik Audio Subwoofers - REW for macOS
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post #720 of 1774 Old 01-27-2019, 07:19 AM
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^^^ cool, one of those phones should work I would think, if restarting your XS doesn't

My "Blacked Out" Home Theater Room
1400cuft sealed room, suspended floor | SY Triple Black Velvet for Blackout | Denon AVR-X6300H - 7.6.4 Atmos | KEF Q Series Speakers | GIK Treatments | Oppo 203 | Epson 5040 4K | Eyes 7' to 120" AT Seymour Screen | 6x 18" Sealed DIY Subs (4x SI DS4-18s & 2x UM22-18s) | 6x Crowson MAs | 4x BK LFEs | BOSS 'Sub Riser' 6x JBL12s | MiniDSP 10x10HD
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