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post #781 of 1774 Old 02-01-2019, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post




once you have subs that can do over 120 db relatively flat down to 15hz I think one needs to focus on front towers spl


Unless @javan robinson is listening well above reference level, his PSA MTM-210s (crossed over at 80Hz) will be able to keep up no worries. I've had mine above Ref Level a few times for short stints without even a hint of strain.
I think a lot of people can handle subs/bass in the 120dB+ region for short periods - but 110dB+ from the main channels? that would probably have most people running from the room !

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post #782 of 1774 Old 02-01-2019, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
Unless @javan robinson is listening well above reference level, his PSA MTM-210s (crossed over at 80Hz) will be able to keep up no worries. I've had mine above Ref Level a few times for short stints without even a hint of strain.
I think a lot of people can handle subs/bass in the 120dB+ region for short periods - but 110dB+ from the main channels? that would probably have most people running from the room !

agreed, but a sweet front soundstage around 90-95 db isnt easy to do in large spaces and in very large spaces 100db is kinda hard to do.
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post #783 of 1774 Old 02-02-2019, 07:54 PM
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Hello All, I'm back. Re-ran Audyssey, I also jammed my face off last night and I have some results to report!

But first and foremost, a word about Rythmik, the FV25HP, and my journey thus far.. -

I LOVE this sub and I am indeed keeping it forever. The cleanliness of it (both in looks and in sound) is unmatched as far as what I have seen, and it gets way deeper, louder and sexier than any of my other SVS subs ever did. I've been a speakerhead, audiovisual/tech enthusiast, etc for as long as I could remember, but am not really just learning about all of the intricacies and ins and outs and how things work and how to really bring the life into the components I've amassed. Over the past year or two after picking up my Denon, FV25HP and MTM-210's - I've been trying to make the time just to sit back and enjoy these wonderful items - and I thank each and every one of you for helping me to actualize that!

As far as the Rythmik, I realize I stumbled upon this thread searching for a little bit "more" and decided to drop some comments. Meant no disrespect at all to Enrico and the boys and should have taken it through the proper channels. I will never stop using using this sub, whether in my main room or another; but if I'm able to squeeze a little more power out of this thing, it may prolong my move from my main room to JTR for some time..

Anyways - speaking of proper channels, I read the post that Rythmik had made in the official thread regarding the limiter. I may still require some additional clarification on that, but from as I understand it it means something like "turn the volume down 1-2 decibels when the limiter light is flashing"....which is confusing considering what Enrico and imureh said about having the volume at 3/4pm..

With that said, I re-ran Audyssey and my results are below. Without re-running Audyssey - I had a friend over last night and we hung out, listened to some tunes, played with the hue lights and jammed our faces off as mentioned above. Before the face-jamming I had indeed turned the volume up to about 2/3pm on the sub and I had experienced more potent and tremendous feelings of bass throughout my body and my house. I liked this. I did check on the limiter periodically and periodically - as mentioned before; it was flashing. But - this was before I re-ran Audyssey.

So again, in closing - my reportings from Audyssey are below. I am now posting these in complete silence and after I post this I'm going to turn on some music, turn the dial on the volume to about 2pm and see how she sounds.

Note: I do like to listen to music very loudly and near reference volume on my AVR - and even MORE SO since I got these very efficient PSA MTM's and Outlaw Amps. As one has mentioned before either on here or a video that I had watched "-10db or -5db or even 0db doesn't seem as loud as it did before." Meaning, I guess listening to my old Paradigm Monitor 9's - was a little to harsh on my ears to set it up too loud. And that it just doesn't seem as "loud" as it did before - because these speakers are so damn clean. Which I do see as a good thing, because I can now turn it up louder and achieve louder, cleaner, more potent music/movies/etc - But...I don't want to break my equipment!

For the record, I do like to listen to music for prolonged periods of time (30 minutes - 2hours) with the volume set anywhere from -10db to -2db and sometimes @ reference (0db) for a few moments if the mood is just right

When I watch movies the volume is anywhere from -20db to -0db probably falling right around -5/6db 85% of the time.

But according to Audyssey - my LCR are all set at -6.5db or -8db. Meaning that when listening in Stereo I would have to essentially go up to +7DB in order to reach actual reference volume, right?

Audyssey Levels -

FL - -8db
C - -8db
FR - -6.5db

SR - -3.5db
SBR - -1.5db
SBL - -1db
SL - -3db

TFR - -1db
TRR - -2.5db
TRL - -1.5db
TFL - -2db

Subwoofer -.... -3.5db


All speakers set to Small by Audyssey.

Crossovers all set to 80hz by me. They were all 60hz and 40hz.

I will be boosting the Atmos Speakers 1db and the Center 1db, but as far as the subwoofer boost level - what do y'all recommend?


ANYHOOT - I've typed enough. Thank you all for your Wonderful Advice and Looking Forward To Getting More Out Of This Sub Without Busting It!




65" 900E Tee Vee | Denon 6300H AVR | PSA MTM-210s | PSA MTM-210c | PSA MTM-110s | Canton 880 InCeilings | Rythmik FV25HP

Last edited by javan robinson; 02-02-2019 at 07:58 PM.
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post #784 of 1774 Old 02-02-2019, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by javan robinson View Post
Hello All, I'm back. Re-ran Audyssey, I also jammed my face off last night and I have some results to report!
Not sure if you ever shared this, but do you have your sub FR with and without audyssey?

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
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post #785 of 1774 Old 02-02-2019, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by javan robinson View Post

But according to Audyssey - my LCR are all set at -6.5db or -8db. Meaning that when listening in Stereo I would have to essentially go up to +7DB in order to reach actual reference volume, right?

Audyssey Levels -

Subwoofer -.... -3.5db
Those Audyssey set numbers are numbers such that when playing at 0MV, they produce reference level at those calibrated levels, so if you up your volume to +7, you are listening at +7 over reference. You would not want to adjust your speaker levels except for the center if you have a hard time hearing movie dialogue. Now regarding the -3.5 sub level post Audessey, you will need to up the volume knob on your FV25 by 4-5 clicks and rerun Audyssey till it sets your sub at -11 or little less. You then bump up your sub trim from your avr by 10db making your sub trim now -1. This means you run your sub 10db hot. Do this and report back. I would read and follow Laudau’s set up guide under enrico’s signature.
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post #786 of 1774 Old 02-02-2019, 08:39 PM
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First Set of Tests - No changes done to the above settings. Haven't even touched the dial on the FV25HP. I am listening @ -4db on the AVR.

Tested J Cole - Middle Child, Tyler The Creator - Potato Salad, Young Jeezy - Put On, Wiz Khalifa - On My Level, Glass Animals - Gooey.

The FV25hps volume knob is @ approx 10pm or 2 clicks exactly from 9pm.

As far as what I could tell - running back and forth from my laptop and leaning over the sub, extending one leg and looking @ the limiter - the light was not flashing at all as far as I could tell.

The bass also sounds great! This bass would be perfectly fine for any family with a white picket fence It's also extremely mellow, balanced, I have a bit of chest thump going on and the house and body is shaking/vibrating - somewhat.

BUT WE ALL KNOW THAT'S NOT WHAT WE ARE AFTER.

So I then turned the volume knob 7 clicks which is exactly 12pm on the dial. I had Lil Wayne - A Milli playing through the stereo when I was making this adjustment. As soon as I landed on noon, the limiter light started flashing. I just got up again to check when the bass hits - and again still flashing.

I will now re-run through the above songs and see if she flashes...


Every single song flashed, except for Jeezy - Put On - which is funny because that song (to me) has the most amount of bass amongst them! ha.

Anyways - I'm not sure what this tells me, but perhaps we can figure out how it's possible I can still go louder, while still remaining in the safe zone?


And note: When I was jamming last night - the sub was most definitely turned up 3-4 more clicks past noon and it was louder than this - probably 2-3db on the AVR... But after reading what Rythmik said on the official thread - it makes me never want to do what I did last night, ever again.

Thanks again all!




65" 900E Tee Vee | Denon 6300H AVR | PSA MTM-210s | PSA MTM-210c | PSA MTM-110s | Canton 880 InCeilings | Rythmik FV25HP
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post #787 of 1774 Old 02-02-2019, 08:50 PM
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Not sure if you ever shared this, but do you have your sub FR with and without audyssey?
Hey Imureh - not sure if I'm 100% on what you're asking. Frequency Response or Front Right? Lol. I am only running/listening to my system while in Audyssey Flat, and if you're asking why my FR speaker is a bit lower - I'm not 100% sure. I also am not using the DSP or EQ on the AMP. (I have no idea what you're talking about, just trying to cover all the bases, lol)

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Those Audyssey set numbers are numbers such that when playing at 0MV, they produce reference level at those calibrated levels, so if you up your volume to +7, you are listening at +7 over reference. You would not want to adjust your speaker levels except for the center if you have a hard time hearing movie dialogue. Now regarding the -3.5 sub level post Audessey, you will need to up the volume knob on your FV25 by 4-5 clicks and rerun Audyssey till it sets your sub at -11 or little less. You then bump up your sub trim from your avr by 10db making your sub trim now -1. This means you run your sub 10db hot. Do this and report back. I would read and follow Laudau’s set up guide under enrico’s signature.
Hey TV - Thank you for explaining that. And I don't have a hard time hearing dialogue - I've just always heard the kids (avs'ers) usually turn their center channel up a click or two, and I've been accustomed to doing it as well. Though you're right - for these PSA's I don't need to turn the center up, as it's crystal clear!

And dammit, on the re-running Audyssey lol. Here I go again! I read the guide before, multiple times actually - but now I find myself reading page 4 over and over and over and over again really trying to wrap my brain around this. It's crazy how it works for some things, but not for others


Anyhow - so I am going to do what I do when I usually run Audyssey and put it at 79-81db instead of the recommended 75db.

Here we go! Thank you again!




65" 900E Tee Vee | Denon 6300H AVR | PSA MTM-210s | PSA MTM-210c | PSA MTM-110s | Canton 880 InCeilings | Rythmik FV25HP
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post #788 of 1774 Old 02-02-2019, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by javan robinson View Post
Hello All, I'm back. Re-ran Audyssey, I also jammed my face off last night and I have some results to report!

But first and foremost, a word about Rythmik, the FV25HP, and my journey thus far.. -

I LOVE this sub and I am indeed keeping it forever. The cleanliness of it (both in looks and in sound) is unmatched as far as what I have seen, and it gets way deeper, louder and sexier than any of my other SVS subs ever did. I've been a speakerhead, audiovisual/tech enthusiast, etc for as long as I could remember, but am not really just learning about all of the intricacies and ins and outs and how things work and how to really bring the life into the components I've amassed. Over the past year or two after picking up my Denon, FV25HP and MTM-210's - I've been trying to make the time just to sit back and enjoy these wonderful items - and I thank each and every one of you for helping me to actualize that!

As far as the Rythmik, I realize I stumbled upon this thread searching for a little bit "more" and decided to drop some comments. Meant no disrespect at all to Enrico and the boys and should have taken it through the proper channels. I will never stop using using this sub, whether in my main room or another; but if I'm able to squeeze a little more power out of this thing, it may prolong my move from my main room to JTR for some time..

Anyways - speaking of proper channels, I read the post that Rythmik had made in the official thread regarding the limiter. I may still require some additional clarification on that, but from as I understand it it means something like "turn the volume down 1-2 decibels when the limiter light is flashing"....which is confusing considering what Enrico and imureh said about having the volume at 3/4pm..

With that said, I re-ran Audyssey and my results are below. Without re-running Audyssey - I had a friend over last night and we hung out, listened to some tunes, played with the hue lights and jammed our faces off as mentioned above. Before the face-jamming I had indeed turned the volume up to about 2/3pm on the sub and I had experienced more potent and tremendous feelings of bass throughout my body and my house. I liked this. I did check on the limiter periodically and periodically - as mentioned before; it was flashing. But - this was before I re-ran Audyssey.

So again, in closing - my reportings from Audyssey are below. I am now posting these in complete silence and after I post this I'm going to turn on some music, turn the dial on the volume to about 2pm and see how she sounds.

Note: I do like to listen to music very loudly and near reference volume on my AVR - and even MORE SO since I got these very efficient PSA MTM's and Outlaw Amps. As one has mentioned before either on here or a video that I had watched "-10db or -5db or even 0db doesn't seem as loud as it did before." Meaning, I guess listening to my old Paradigm Monitor 9's - was a little to harsh on my ears to set it up too loud. And that it just doesn't seem as "loud" as it did before - because these speakers are so damn clean. Which I do see as a good thing, because I can now turn it up louder and achieve louder, cleaner, more potent music/movies/etc - But...I don't want to break my equipment!

For the record, I do like to listen to music for prolonged periods of time (30 minutes - 2hours) with the volume set anywhere from -10db to -2db and sometimes @ reference (0db) for a few moments if the mood is just right

When I watch movies the volume is anywhere from -20db to -0db probably falling right around -5/6db 85% of the time.

But according to Audyssey - my LCR are all set at -6.5db or -8db. Meaning that when listening in Stereo I would have to essentially go up to +7DB in order to reach actual reference volume, right?

Audyssey Levels -

FL - -8db
C - -8db
FR - -6.5db

SR - -3.5db
SBR - -1.5db
SBL - -1db
SL - -3db

TFR - -1db
TRR - -2.5db
TRL - -1.5db
TFL - -2db

Subwoofer -.... -3.5db


All speakers set to Small by Audyssey.

Crossovers all set to 80hz by me. They were all 60hz and 40hz.

I will be boosting the Atmos Speakers 1db and the Center 1db, but as far as the subwoofer boost level - what do y'all recommend?


ANYHOOT - I've typed enough. Thank you all for your Wonderful Advice and Looking Forward To Getting More Out Of This Sub Without Busting It!
Hi Javan,

I am glad that you are enjoying your FV25HP all over again! What Brian was saying is that when the limiter light comes on, it is telling you to turn down the master volume by 2 or 3db. You need to understand that the master volume and the subwoofer boost both put demands on the subwoofer. So, if you play 5.1 content at near Reference levels of let's say -3 MV and you boost the subwoofer above the level that Audyssey set it at, you are actually trying to force it to play more than 115db.

That may be okay for most mid-bass content, but it will struggle in your room with the really low content. So, if you don't want to damage your sub, you need to be a little bit careful with it. High master volume + subwoofer boost = too much demand on the sub, with 5.1 content that has a lot of low-bass.

Now, stereo may be a completely different proposition unless it is bass-enhanced. Anything with low-bass sine waves in it, such as some of the homemade mixes on YouTube, for instance, could be risky at very high volume levels, with a healthy sub boost. Most normal stereo content should be fine, unless it is bass-enhanced.

"Reference" is a term that really only applies to 5.1 movie content. But, when Audyssey calibrates your AVR, Reference equals a master volume level of 0.0. It has nothing at all to do with the individual trim levels on your speakers--only with the master volume level.

As Jamie said, odds are you can jam to your hearts content with your speakers. And, a volume level of -3 will only require them to produce 102db. But, the subwoofer has its own separate amplifier which you are turning up after running Audyssey. So, now you are boosting the volume on the subwoofer in two different places.

First, you are boosting it with a high master volume level. At 0.0 MV, with 5.1 content, the subwoofer will have to try to play all frequencies at 115db, just from the master volume level. But second, you have also boosted the subwoofer amplifier from wherever Audyssey set it. So, if you boosted it by let's say 5db (either with the sub gain, or with the AVR trim, or with some combination of the two) you would be requiring the subwoofer to play 115db + another 5db at the MV setting of 0.0. That 120db in our hypothetical example would put a lot of strain on the sub, especially for the lower frequenices.

If all of this doesn't quite compute for you yet, don't worry about it. Just read it a few times until it does. And, meanwhile, keep an eye on your limiter light, and don't let yourself get too carried away. That single subwoofer, as strong and bulletproof as it is, is simply not sufficient for the demands that you are putting on it. You can certainly keep it, and just add another one like it, if that is what you want to do.

But, you are surely going to have to either add something, or to turn down your volume a little. You can have less total volume with a little more sub boost. That is what Enrico was suggesting. Or, you can have more total volume with a little less sub boost. But, you will need to do one or the other, if you want to protect your sub.

Regards,
Mike

Edit: Seeing Enrico's last post, I decided that I had better add something about DEQ. DEQ's effect is small at near Reference master volumes. For instance, at -5 MV, DEQ would add only +2.2db to the subwoofer. At -10 MV, DEQ would add +4.4db. DEQ adds 2.2db of bass boost for every -5 MV. It's action is a little more complicated than that, as explained in Section V of the Guide linked in my signature, but that's the essence of it. The bottom line is that at about -5 MV and above, DEQ is pretty much a non-factor.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #789 of 1774 Old 02-02-2019, 08:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by javan robinson View Post
Hey Imureh - not sure if I'm 100% on what you're asking. Frequency Response or Front Right? Lol. I am only running/listening to my system while in Audyssey Flat, and if you're asking why my FR speaker is a bit lower - I'm not 100% sure. I also am not using the DSP or EQ on the AMP. (I have no idea what you're talking about, just trying to cover all the bases, lol)







Hey TV - Thank you for explaining that. And I don't have a hard time hearing dialogue - I've just always heard the kids (avs'ers) usually turn their center channel up a click or two, and I've been accustomed to doing it as well. Though you're right - for these PSA's I don't need to turn the center up, as it's crystal clear!



And dammit, on the re-running Audyssey lol. Here I go again! I read the guide before, multiple times actually - but now I find myself reading page 4 over and over and over and over again really trying to wrap my brain around this. It's crazy how it works for some things, but not for others





Anyhow - so I am going to do what I do when I usually run Audyssey and put it at 79-81db instead of the recommended 75db.



Here we go! Thank you again!


Hi, I was asking for the frequency response graph. You should raise the sub level to whatever gives you around -10 to -11 AVR trim level. For me that is usually about 82-83 dB. Run the first three positions on Audyssey only first to check you are getting the desired levels and then run all 8.


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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
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post #790 of 1774 Old 02-02-2019, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by javan robinson View Post
First Set of Tests - No changes done to the above settings. Haven't even touched the dial on the FV25HP. I am listening @ -4db on the AVR.

Tested J Cole - Middle Child, Tyler The Creator - Potato Salad, Young Jeezy - Put On, Wiz Khalifa - On My Level, Glass Animals - Gooey.

The FV25hps volume knob is @ approx 10pm or 2 clicks exactly from 9pm.

As far as what I could tell - running back and forth from my laptop and leaning over the sub, extending one leg and looking @ the limiter - the light was not flashing at all as far as I could tell.

The bass also sounds great! This bass would be perfectly fine for any family with a white picket fence It's also extremely mellow, balanced, I have a bit of chest thump going on and the house and body is shaking/vibrating - somewhat.

BUT WE ALL KNOW THAT'S NOT WHAT WE ARE AFTER.

So I then turned the volume knob 7 clicks which is exactly 12pm on the dial. I had Lil Wayne - A Milli playing through the stereo when I was making this adjustment. As soon as I landed on noon, the limiter light started flashing. I just got up again to check when the bass hits - and again still flashing.

I will now re-run through the above songs and see if she flashes...


Every single song flashed, except for Jeezy - Put On - which is funny because that song (to me) has the most amount of bass amongst them! ha.

Anyways - I'm not sure what this tells me, but perhaps we can figure out how it's possible I can still go louder, while still remaining in the safe zone?


And note: When I was jamming last night - the sub was most definitely turned up 3-4 more clicks past noon and it was louder than this - probably 2-3db on the AVR... But after reading what Rythmik said on the official thread - it makes me never want to do what I did last night, ever again.

Thanks again all!
Let me explain this. The limiter brings down the gain up to -6dB to avoid clipping but the LED will flash the same way if it applies -0.25dB or -6dB. So unless you are hearing weird noises like a metallic noise coming out of the driver, then you are on the safe zone. Another symptom of stress if checking the amp temperature. If the amp is warm to the touch but not hot, then you are OK. Playing at -10dB from reference will always make the limiter kick in. I think you are just too obsessed with the green light. If it bothers you too much, just cover it with a piece of electrical tape and enjoy your FV25HP

Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio - Dialing In Rythmik Audio Subwoofers - REW for macOS
Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | 92" Stewart ST100 | Sony VW295ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |
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post #791 of 1774 Old 02-02-2019, 09:09 PM
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Hey Imureh - not sure if I'm 100% on what you're asking. Frequency Response or Front Right? Lol. I am only running/listening to my system while in Audyssey Flat, and if you're asking why my FR speaker is a bit lower - I'm not 100% sure. I also am not using the DSP or EQ on the AMP. (I have no idea what you're talking about, just trying to cover all the bases, lol)



Hey TV - Thank you for explaining that. And I don't have a hard time hearing dialogue - I've just always heard the kids (avs'ers) usually turn their center channel up a click or two, and I've been accustomed to doing it as well. Though you're right - for these PSA's I don't need to turn the center up, as it's crystal clear!

And dammit, on the re-running Audyssey lol. Here I go again! I read the guide before, multiple times actually - but now I find myself reading page 4 over and over and over and over again really trying to wrap my brain around this. It's crazy how it works for some things, but not for others


Anyhow - so I am going to do what I do when I usually run Audyssey and put it at 79-81db instead of the recommended 75db.

Here we go! Thank you again!
Run only the first 3 measurements and check the results for the subwoofer level. The level has to be between -11db and -10dB so you have enough headroom to run the subwoofer 8dB to 10dB hot. Also, make sure Dynamic EQ is OFF, otherwise you are boosting the subwoofer level by +10dB already and that will cause the limiter to kick in.

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post #792 of 1774 Old 02-02-2019, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Javan,

I am glad that you are enjoying your FV25HP all over again! What Brian was saying is that when the limiter light comes on, it is telling you to turn down the master volume by 2 or 3db. You need to understand that the master volume and the subwoofer boost both put demands on the subwoofer. So, if you play 5.1 content at near Reference levels of let's say -3 MV and you boost the subwoofer above the level that Audyssey set it at, you are actually trying to force it to play more than 115db.

That may be okay for most mid-bass content, but it will struggle in your room with the really low content. So, if you don't want to damage your sub, you need to be a little bit careful with it. High master volume + subwoofer boost = too much demand on the sub, with 5.1 content that has a lot of low-bass.

Now, stereo may be a completely different proposition unless it is bass-enhanced. Anything with low-bass sine waves in it, such as some of the homemade mixes on YouTube, for instance, could be risky at very high volume levels, with a healthy sub boost. Most normal stereo content should be fine, unless it is bass-enhanced.

"Reference" is a term that really only applies to 5.1 movie content. But, when Audyssey calibrates your AVR, Reference equals a master volume level of 0.0. It has nothing at all to do with the individual trim levels on your speakers--only with the master volume level.

As Jamie said, odds are you can jam to your hearts content with your speakers. And, a volume level of -3 will only require them to produce 102db. But, the subwoofer has its own separate amplifier which you are turning up after running Audyssey. So, now you are boosting the volume on the subwoofer in two different places.

First, you are boosting it with a high master volume level. At 0.0 MV, with 5.1 content, the subwoofer will have to try to play all frequencies at 115db, just from the master volume level. But second, you have also boosted the subwoofer amplifier from wherever Audyssey set it. So, if you boosted it by let's say 5db (either with the sub gain, or with the AVR trim, or with some combination of the two) you would be requiring the subwoofer to play 115db + another 5db at the MV setting of 0.0. That 120db in our hypothetical example would put a lot of strain on the sub, especially for the lower frequenices.

If all of this doesn't quite compute for you yet, don't worry about it. Just read it a few times until it does. And, meanwhile, keep an eye on your limiter light, and don't let yourself get too carried away. That single subwoofer, as strong and bulletproof as it is, is simply not sufficient for the demands that you are putting on it. You can certainly keep it, and just add another one like it, if that is what you want to do.

But, you are surely going to have to either add something, or to turn down your volume a little. You can have less total volume with a little more sub boost. That is what Enrico was suggesting. Or, you can have more total volume with a little less sub boost. But, you will need to do one or the other, if you want to protect your sub.

Regards,
Mike

Edit: Seeing Enrico's last post, I decided that I had better add something about DEQ. DEQ's effect is small at near Reference master volumes. For instance, at -5 MV, DEQ would add only +2.2db to the subwoofer. At -10 MV, DEQ would add +4.4db. DEQ adds 2.2db of bass boost for every -5 MV. It's action is a little more complicated than that, as explained in Section V of the Guide linked in my signature, but that's the essence of it. The bottom line is that at about -5 MV and above, DEQ is pretty much a non-factor.
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Hi, I was asking for the frequency response graph. You should raise the sub level to whatever gives you around -10 to -11 AVR trim level. For me that is usually about 82-83 dB. Run the first three positions on Audyssey only first to check you are getting the desired levels and then run all 8.


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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Let me explain this. The limiter brings down the gain up to -6dB to avoid clipping but the LED will flash the same way if it applies -0.25dB or -6dB. So unless you are hearing weird noises like a metallic noise coming out of the driver, then you are on the safe zone. Another symptom of stress if checking the amp temperature. If the amp is warm to the touch but not hot, then you are OK. Playing at -10dB from reference will always make the limiter kick in. I think you are just too obsessed with the green light. If it bothers you too much, just cover it with a piece of electrical tape and enjoy your FV25HP

Run only the first 3 measurements and check the results for the subwoofer level. The level has to be between -11db and -10dB so you have enough headroom to run the subwoofer 8dB to 10dB hot. Also, make sure Dynamic EQ is OFF, otherwise you are boosting the subwoofer level by +10dB already and that will cause the limiter to kick in.

Hey Mike,

Thank you for the clear and thought out explanation. I think I'm starting to get it. I won't bother to re-create what you said, but just trust me when I say I'm starting to see the light

As far as the bass-enhanced stuff, I don't do any EQ boosting, nor listening to music on youtube, so I should be good there.

Also - thank you for explaining DEQ, I don't use it; though I may have in the earlier days. I have read your guide as well - and should probably do some brushing up on it!



Imureh,

I do have REW, and a UMIK-1 but I probably won't be bringing it out tonight. Perhaps tomorrow! I too am interested to see the graph!



Enrico/All,

I have re-ran Audyssey, getting it to approx 82db on the SW matching and I have now achieved the elusive -10db! The other measurements are pretty much the same as mentioned before.

So I will now move the Sub level on the AVR to -1db and move the dial to Noon, and see how that sounds and go from there...!

Oh, and the limiter light does not bother me visually - it's facing the wall in a hard to reach spot and I have to stand on my tip-toes to see it lol, I just don't want anything to happen to her!




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post #793 of 1774 Old 02-02-2019, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by javan robinson View Post
Hey Mike,

Thank you for the clear and thought out explanation. I think I'm starting to get it. I won't bother to re-create what you said, but just trust me when I say I'm starting to see the light

As far as the bass-enhanced stuff, I don't do any EQ boosting, nor listening to music on youtube, so I should be good there.

Also - thank you for explaining DEQ, I don't use it; though I may have in the earlier days. I have read your guide as well - and should probably do some brushing up on it!



Imureh,

I do have REW, and a UMIK-1 but I probably won't be bringing it out tonight. Perhaps tomorrow! I too am interested to see the graph!



Enrico/All,

I have re-ran Audyssey, getting it to approx 82db on the SW matching and I have now achieved the elusive -10db! The other measurements are pretty much the same as mentioned before.

So I will now move the Sub level on the AVR to -1db and move the dial to Noon, and see how that sounds and go from there...!

Oh, and the limiter light does not bother me visually - it's facing the wall in a hard to reach spot and I have to stand on my tip-toes to see it lol, I just don't want anything to happen to her!
Wait, if you change the level for the subwoofer on the AVR from -10dB to -1dB, do not touch the volume knob on the subwoofer at all. I mean, do not increase the volume anymore on the subwoofer as you will be running the subwoofer 9dB hot already going from -10dB to -1dB.

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Where was the sub dial to achieve-10 trim before you up it to noon position? Don’t worry about the light as long as no bad sound’s heard. I never noticed the light as it is on the back side. I usually listen at -15mv with bass +10 and dynEQ on plus BEQ filters (so my bass is above reference level) and have never heard a single bad sound from my FV15 pair or from their ports.

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post #795 of 1774 Old 02-02-2019, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Wait, if you change the level for the subwoofer on the AVR from -10dB to -1dB, do not touch the volume knob on the subwoofer at all. I mean, do not increase the volume anymore on the subwoofer as you will be running the subwoofer 9dB hot already going from -10dB to -1dB.
Right when I was starting to get it! Ha. I did a few light listening sessions, and you're right - once it was anywhere above -8db on the AVR - I could tell it was a little lopsided and the light was flashing constantly. So I turned it down.

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Where was the sub dial to achieve-10 trim before you up it to noon position? Don’t worry about the light. I never noticed the light as it is on the back side. I usually listen at -15mv with bass +10 and dynEQ on plus BEQ filters (so my bass is above reference level) and have never heard a single bad sound from my FV15 pair or from their ports.

After calibration, I turned it 3 clicks to noon, so it was approx 10/11 on the dial beforehand.

Definitely glad to hear that nothing bad has ever happened with your subs and all of the bass heavy listening you do ! Gives me confidence for the future!

Anyhow - I turned the AVR sub level to -4db, instead of -10db or -1db where I had it running super hot. And kept the dial at one click before noon on the sub. That should be okay for now, right?

Enrico, when will the FV28HP be ready!?




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post #796 of 1774 Old 02-02-2019, 10:23 PM
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^^ so you are running ~9db hot with this. Should be fine. Did you run Audyssey calibration with low damping? What damping and frequency are you running your fv25?
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post #797 of 1774 Old 02-02-2019, 10:29 PM
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Perhaps we should bring this fv25 set up discussion over to the Rythmik thread?
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post #798 of 1774 Old 02-02-2019, 10:43 PM
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Enrico, when will the FV28HP be ready!?
i've asked for the same and the request fell on deaf ears. jtr & psa offer dual 18 vented options, rythmik should too.


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Perhaps we should bring this fv25 set up discussion over to the Rythmik thread?
Boom, answered you over there. Low Damping and PEQ off btw.




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post #800 of 1774 Old 02-02-2019, 10:48 PM
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i've asked for the same and the request fell on deaf ears. jtr & psa offer dual 18 vented options, rythmik should too.
I've suggested before that they could ship it in two halves and we could bolt it together ourselves. I'm sure there is a way to design a cabinet that is still free of resonances yet can be split in two. Put that thinking hat on

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Right when I was starting to get it! Ha. I did a few light listening sessions, and you're right - once it was anywhere above -8db on the AVR - I could tell it was a little lopsided and the light was flashing constantly. So I turned it down.




After calibration, I turned it 3 clicks to noon, so it was approx 10/11 on the dial beforehand.

Definitely glad to hear that nothing bad has ever happened with your subs and all of the bass heavy listening you do ! Gives me confidence for the future!

Anyhow - I turned the AVR sub level to -4db, instead of -10db or -1db where I had it running super hot. And kept the dial at one click before noon on the sub. That should be okay for now, right?

Enrico, when will the FV28HP be ready!?
A few months back I would have said, not a chance that a FV28HP would happen, well as of today I can’t say the same
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I've suggested before that they could ship it in two halves and we could bolt it together ourselves. I'm sure there is a way to design a cabinet that is still free of resonances yet can be split in two. Put that thinking hat on
the fv25 isn't unwieldy by any means (i have an intimate relationship with its weight given that i've moved three of them down & up a steep flight of stairs). fv25 is a bit over 200lbs so i'd wager an fv28 would be between 300-350lbs (larger cabinet, heavier drivers, slightly beefier amplifier). if it had output similar or greater to the cap 4000 i'd be thinking about giving rythmik my money again instead of a competitor.
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A few months back I would have said, not a chance that a FV28HP would happen, well as of today I can’t say the same
Ill grab 2.
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A few months back I would have said, not a chance that a FV28HP would happen, well as of today I can’t say the same
Then is it safe to assume a G28HP is as likely as an FV28HP?
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Right when I was starting to get it! Ha. I did a few light listening sessions, and you're right - once it was anywhere above -8db on the AVR - I could tell it was a little lopsided and the light was flashing constantly. So I turned it down.

After calibration, I turned it 3 clicks to noon, so it was approx 10/11 on the dial beforehand.

Definitely glad to hear that nothing bad has ever happened with your subs and all of the bass heavy listening you do ! Gives me confidence for the future!

Anyhow - I turned the AVR sub level to -4db, instead of -10db or -1db where I had it running super hot. And kept the dial at one click before noon on the sub. That should be okay for now, right?

Enrico, when will the FV28HP be ready!?
You are welcome, Javan! And, I can tell that you are starting to get it. The problem is that you are getting what sometimes sounds like some conflicting advice, and that would be confusing to anyone. So, let's go back to some basics. As a general rule, you would prefer to keep your subwoofer AVR trim in negative numbers (especially with high master volume levels) in order to avoid clipping. You can add some (not a huge amount, but some) subwoofer boost when you listen above -10 MV, with either the subwoofer gain or the AVR trim.

But, you can't add a lot of either one, and you shouldn't go above about -5 or -6 in trim with a very high master volume level. Lower trim levels are better as the master volume goes above about -10. You typically want most of the independent subwoofer boost to have the voltage coming from the subwoofer amplifier, rather than from the AVR.

It's really all about headroom. Some HT users routinely run their subwoofers at above 115db. And, they still obtain very low-extension in the process. But, very few people could accomplish that objective in a larger room with just a single subwoofer--not even a Cap 4000ULF. If we want a lot of bass headroom, especially combined with good low-frequency extension (well below 20Hz), and especially in a large space, it generally takes multiple subwoofers to accomplish that. That's sort of it in a nutshell!

Regards,
Mike
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Right when I was starting to get it! Ha. I did a few light listening sessions, and you're right - once it was anywhere above -8db on the AVR - I could tell it was a little lopsided and the light was flashing constantly. So I turned it down.




After calibration, I turned it 3 clicks to noon, so it was approx 10/11 on the dial beforehand.

Definitely glad to hear that nothing bad has ever happened with your subs and all of the bass heavy listening you do ! Gives me confidence for the future!

Anyhow - I turned the AVR sub level to -4db, instead of -10db or -1db where I had it running super hot. And kept the dial at one click before noon on the sub. That should be okay for now, right?

Enrico, when will the FV28HP be ready!?
I run my FV18 about 12db hot. My AVR trim is -9db and the knob to sub is about 3pm or so. I know this is that Audyssey achieves -11db when subs are at 82-83db for me and then I bump post audyssey to 94-95db using the REW SPL meter. With the minidsp controlling volume of the subs is much easier
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post #807 of 1774 Old 02-06-2019, 04:29 PM
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Well guys I've been absent for awhile due to home renovations and in the time that I spent installing new floors and what not I've been kicking back and forth what low port tuned sub would work best for me based on my preferences and room etc. I decided to go ahead and order dual JTR 2400ULFs. Talked with Jeff today and placed the order and it should be a week before they are shipped. So it looks like in a week or so I'll be experiencing these new lower tuned ported subs. Looking forward to it.
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Well guys I've been absent for awhile due to home renovations and in the time that I spent installing new floors and what not I've been kicking back and forth what low port tuned sub would work best for me based on my preferences and room etc. I decided to go ahead and order dual JTR 2400ULFs. Talked with Jeff today and placed the order and it should be a week before they are shipped. So it looks like in a week or so I'll be experiencing these new lower tuned ported subs. Looking forward to it.


Holy crap! Aren’t you the sneaky one.

Good for you bud. You will be blown away. They are some stellar subs and in your room they will sound outstanding. What are you gonna do with the v3601s?


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post #809 of 1774 Old 02-06-2019, 04:36 PM
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Congrats Hop. You will be amazed with them. You must also order a minidsp HD to beq and experience the glory of what the 2400 pair are capable of.
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post #810 of 1774 Old 02-06-2019, 04:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Congrats Hop. You will be amazed with them. You must also order a minidsp HD to beq and experience the glory of what the 2400 pair are capable of.


Oh hell yeah! Todd has not tried BEQ yet as he got busy with his house.


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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
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