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post #61 of 1926 Old 10-23-2018, 07:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I just want to publicly say thanks to Ray for being so very helpful... his subwoofer journey has been great to follow. I had a ton of questions so I reached out to Ray over PM and long story short we ended up talking on the phone for almost an hour the other day. Thanks again Ray for taking the time to answer all my questions.

The ID subwoofer market has changed so much in the past five years. Five years ago the 15" subs were considered big. Then the 18" subs came out and now in the past year or two we have these newer 18" ported subs with low port tunes that can dig deep. What's not to like?

Originally I didn't really care about pursuing extension all that much because I always felt like it was really expensive to chase with sealed subs and there is always the limited content issue. But these new ported subs from JTR and Rhythmik are game changers. It seems to me that low teen to single digit extension is much easier to achieve now.

I really like PSA but it appears they aren't too interested in pursuing this new market of deep hitting ported subs which is a shame because I think its shaping up to be an important market that is attracting many people (I know it has my full attention right now). This is especially true when you consider the cost of Rythmik's FV18. I have a pretty large room (about 5200+ cuft) but it sounds to me like dual FV18's could handle the space with little issue (I think?). And dual FV18's are less now than my dual V3601's cost so IMO that's a really good price for that much sub (and I love my V3601's but that extension on these newer ported subs is just too tempting to ignore).

Anyway, after talking to Ray I really want to try out the FV18's... But sadly I can't because my cash flow is all tied up for awhile. I would also love to try the 2400 ULF but my room really needs duals due to poor response and two of those just can't happen right now. The FV18's are more likely to happen but I haven't figured out how. Having said that I've been lying in bed at night trying to come up with a way to make it work. So far I can't put together a plan that won't land me in a divorce but I'm still conspiring.

Anyway, thanks again Ray.
It was my pleasure Ray and it was nice talking to you after all the conversations we have had on the forum

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
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post #62 of 1926 Old 10-23-2018, 07:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post

Nice review @imureh
Thanks and appreciate the compliment

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
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post #63 of 1926 Old 10-23-2018, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I just want to publicly say thanks to Ray for being so very helpful... his subwoofer journey has been great to follow. I had a ton of questions so I reached out to Ray over PM and long story short we ended up talking on the phone for almost an hour the other day. Thanks again Ray for taking the time to answer all my questions.

The ID subwoofer market has changed so much in the past five years. Five years ago the 15" subs were considered big. Then the 18" subs came out and now in the past year or two we have these newer 18" ported subs with low port tunes that can dig deep. What's not to like?

Originally I didn't really care about pursuing extension all that much because I always felt like it was really expensive to chase with sealed subs and there is always the limited content issue. But these new ported subs from JTR and Rhythmik are game changers. It seems to me that low teen to single digit extension is much easier to achieve now.

I really like PSA but it appears they aren't too interested in pursuing this new market of deep hitting ported subs which is a shame because I think its shaping up to be an important market that is attracting many people (I know it has my full attention right now). This is especially true when you consider the cost of Rythmik's FV18. I have a pretty large room (about 5200+ cuft) but it sounds to me like dual FV18's could handle the space with little issue (I think?). And dual FV18's are less now than my dual V3601's cost so IMO that's a really good price for that much sub (and I love my V3601's but that extension on these newer ported subs is just too tempting to ignore).

Anyway, after talking to Ray I really want to try out the FV18's... But sadly I can't because my cash flow is all tied up for awhile. I would also love to try the 2400 ULF but my room really needs duals due to poor response and two of those just can't happen right now. The FV18's are more likely to happen but I haven't figured out how. Having said that I've been lying in bed at night trying to come up with a way to make it work. So far I can't put together a plan that won't land me in a divorce but I'm still conspiring.

Anyway, thanks again Ray.
You will want dual FV25's for your room.
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post #64 of 1926 Old 10-23-2018, 07:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SunByrne View Post
Nice review, Ray.

The FV18 was certainly my favorite at the GTG. I liked the 2400 as well—these are two great subs we're talking about—but the FV18 just had a depth and clarity advantage that brought it a notch higher for me.
Indeed, it was surprising how well this sub filled a very large space. Two of them in my small room are sounding pretty potent. Things are falling off shelves in my home that never had before... Success!

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
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post #65 of 1926 Old 10-23-2018, 07:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toddct View Post
Brian and Enrico have offered to let me try out/demo the FV25. Not sure when exactly this will happen but I will keep you posted. I'll probably do a mini-GTG with Enrico, Ray and maybe a couple of other interested people. It will be interesting to pit these 2 bad boys in a friendly comparison. I was down these 2 in my own search so I'm looking forward to the opportunity.

Stay tuned!

The 2400ulf is a little different (but similar) than the 1400 driver. I'm not quite sure what the difference is, I'm sure some of the other JTR guys know. May also be a combination of the xmax, dsp, and powerful amp..........? What I do know is that the weight in Ray's room is different than in my room, at least to my ears. Sounds much better and the bass has separation, it's powerful and violent when needed but still subtle and detailed when it's not needed. In his sealed room, the separation wasn't as good and the frequencies kind of blended together. Again, that's what I heard. The difference is a little difficult to describe.

Todd
Can't wait for this man! There is another dude that Enrico said bought dual FV25s, we are thinking of paying him a visit too....
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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
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post #66 of 1926 Old 10-23-2018, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
@imureh , I've enjoyed following your sub journey. Congrats on landing on the perfect combo!

Question: were you guys ever able to quantify the TR results with Vibsensor in any of your auditions you did? Not doubting the gains at all, it just provides more depth to the conversation.
Hey Thanks Man! I intend to stick to it this time (famous last words...)

No one owned a Vibsensor or brought it up, so nope, we missed it. Good point though

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
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post #67 of 1926 Old 10-23-2018, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I just want to publicly say thanks to Ray for being so very helpful... his subwoofer journey has been great to follow. I had a ton of questions so I reached out to Ray over PM and long story short we ended up talking on the phone for almost an hour the other day. Thanks again Ray for taking the time to answer all my questions.

The ID subwoofer market has changed so much in the past five years. Five years ago the 15" subs were considered big. Then the 18" subs came out and now in the past year or two we have these newer 18" ported subs with low port tunes that can dig deep. What's not to like?

Originally I didn't really care about pursuing extension all that much because I always felt like it was really expensive to chase with sealed subs and there is always the limited content issue. But these new ported subs from JTR and Rhythmik are game changers. It seems to me that low teen to single digit extension is much easier to achieve now.

I really like PSA but it appears they aren't too interested in pursuing this new market of deep hitting ported subs which is a shame because I think its shaping up to be an important market that is attracting many people (I know it has my full attention right now). This is especially true when you consider the cost of Rythmik's FV18. I have a pretty large room (about 5200+ cuft) but it sounds to me like dual FV18's could handle the space with little issue (I think?). And dual FV18's are less now than my dual V3601's cost so IMO that's a really good price for that much sub (and I love my V3601's but that extension on these newer ported subs is just too tempting to ignore).

Anyway, after talking to Ray I really want to try out the FV18's... But sadly I can't because my cash flow is all tied up for awhile. I would also love to try the 2400 ULF but my room really needs duals due to poor response and two of those just can't happen right now. The FV18's are more likely to happen but I haven't figured out how. Having said that I've been lying in bed at night trying to come up with a way to make it work. So far I can't put together a plan that won't land me in a divorce but I'm still conspiring.

Anyway, thanks again Ray.
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
You will want dual FV25's for your room.

You could be right, Bass, that Hop would need dual FV25HP's for his room. But, I'm not sure. It's the low-bass that I think Hop is after, and the TR which accompanies that, with the V2 paper cone of the FV18. I believe that dual FV18's would give him perfectly adequate mid-bass for any reasonable listening levels, and much more low-bass than he has now.

Is there still MOAR beyond that? Sure, with either the Cap 2400's or the FV25's, although the FV25's won't have quite the same low-bass TR as either the FV18 or the Cap 2400. But, they are both more expensive, and it's all relative when it comes to how much performance is enough. The FV18's would be a big step-up in overall low-frequency performance.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #68 of 1926 Old 10-23-2018, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by audiocologne View Post
Enjoyed reading this thread although I'm interested only in sealed subs. But was just wondering if any other things changed about the FV18's new paper driver? For instance, is the surround still rubber or was it changed to foam?

It has foam surround which is lighter compared to rubber.
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post #69 of 1926 Old 10-23-2018, 07:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ That we won’t know unless Ricci measures the FV18 paper driver which I highly doubt it will happen or someone measures both versions. Between the three subs he measured, I am confident that his FV18 has lower distortion levels.
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
@imureh , do you happen to look at the distortion levels on those sweeps at reference level between the 3 subs? The FV18 aluminum driver was measured with very low distortion on data-bass. I am curious if the paper driver FV18 would be measured with similar results.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Charles View Post
And if the distortion is higher, might that POSSIBLY be an explanation for the added weight and TR?
Hey guys, here are the distortion profiles for the FV18, JTR 118 and PSA V1801. I am not sure what the aluminum driver numbers were but I am not pro like @Ricci . He has better equipment than my UMIK-1 and knows what he is doing....






Attached Thumbnails
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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
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post #70 of 1926 Old 10-23-2018, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Hey Thanks Man! I intend to stick to it this time (famous last words...)

No one owned a Vibsensor or brought it up, so nope, we missed it. Good point though
Vibsensor is free and you just download the app to your phone. So if you have a smart phone and a bag of rice then you are good to go!

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post #71 of 1926 Old 10-23-2018, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by toddct View Post
Brian and Enrico have offered to let me try out/demo the FV25. Not sure when exactly this will happen but I will keep you posted. I'll probably do a mini-GTG with Enrico, Ray and maybe a couple of other interested people.
<raises hand>

I am an interested person.
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post #72 of 1926 Old 10-23-2018, 10:48 PM
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there are so many setting combinations with the rythmik amps...how the heck you dial it in? or did you just go with something recommended?
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post #73 of 1926 Old 10-24-2018, 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
You could be right, Bass, that Hop would need dual FV25HP's for his room. But, I'm not sure. It's the low-bass that I think Hop is after, and the TR which accompanies that, with the V2 paper cone of the FV18. I believe that dual FV18's would give him perfectly adequate mid-bass for any reasonable listening levels, and much more low-bass than he has now.

Is there still MOAR beyond that? Sure, with either the Cap 2400's or the FV25's, although the FV25's won't have quite the same low-bass TR as either the FV18 or the Cap 2400. But, they are both more expensive, and it's all relative when it comes to how much performance is enough. The FV18's would be a big step-up in overall low-frequency performance.

Regards,
Mike
Why do you think the paper cone of the FV18 will have more low-bass then the FV25?

Femi

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post #74 of 1926 Old 10-24-2018, 04:26 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Hey guys, here are the distortion profiles for the FV18, JTR 118 and PSA V1801. I am not sure what the aluminum driver numbers were but I am not pro like @Ricci . He has better equipment than my UMIK-1 and knows what he is doing....







I'm not too educated on how to read these distortion graphs. What kind of information are these graphs revealing to us when comparing these three subs?

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post #75 of 1926 Old 10-24-2018, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by toddct View Post
Brian and Enrico have offered to let me try out/demo the FV25. Not sure when exactly this will happen but I will keep you posted.

Todd
That is super nice of Brian/Enrico. This also sparks my interest, so please tell me when. Thanks Bud.
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post #76 of 1926 Old 10-24-2018, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
The FV18s paper cones have exceeded my expectations and of others at the GTG including Marc who has different versions of the FV18. The paper cone together with the revised ports make it an excellent sub for many applications.
@imureh , do you know what the changes were regarding the "revised ports"?
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post #77 of 1926 Old 10-24-2018, 05:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
@imureh , do you know what the changes were regarding the "revised ports"?

I believe that they are half inch wider inside than the previous model. They have a 4 inch opening now.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
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post #78 of 1926 Old 10-24-2018, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
You could be right, Bass, that Hop would need dual FV25HP's for his room. But, I'm not sure. It's the low-bass that I think Hop is after, and the TR which accompanies that, with the V2 paper cone of the FV18. I believe that dual FV18's would give him perfectly adequate mid-bass for any reasonable listening levels, and much more low-bass than he has now.

Is there still MOAR beyond that? Sure, with either the Cap 2400's or the FV25's, although the FV25's won't have quite the same low-bass TR as either the FV18 or the Cap 2400. But, they are both more expensive, and it's all relative when it comes to how much performance is enough. The FV18's would be a big step-up in overall low-frequency performance.

Regards,
Mike
Hey Mike, I didn't say Need, I said Want. I don't believe Hop will want to give up that intense midbass slam that the V36's give him. I think he would want to have the best of both worlds. The FV25's seem to check both boxes imo.

Don't get me wrong, I am Not taking away from the FV18...it appears to be a bargain at it's price point. I have added it to the cart a few times now.
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post #79 of 1926 Old 10-24-2018, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
@imureh , do you know what the changes were regarding the "revised ports"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
I believe that they are half inch wider inside than the previous model. They have a 4 inch opening now.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Here is the post by Enrico about the newly designed ports with pictures.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post56623036
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post #80 of 1926 Old 10-24-2018, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by femi View Post
Why do you think the paper cone of the FV18 will have more low-bass then the FV25?

Femi

Hi,

I didn't say that the paper cone FV18 would have more low-bass (SPL) than the FV25HP. I said that, based on user reports at least, it would have more low-bass TR. Tactile response is not the same thing as loudness. And, those low-bass tactile sensations can really enhance the special effects in movies. I think that it is partly the low-bass SPL that Hop is after, and partly the low-bass TR. The FV25 will have far more low-bass SPL than he has now, while the FV18 (with the paper cone) will have both more low-bass SPL and more low-bass TR. Win-win!

To me, an even better question is why does the paper cone FV18 have more low-bass TR than the metal cone version? And, I don't know that anyone has suggested a viable answer for that yet. Here is what I know--or at least believe that I know. Ported subs, in general, can produce more particle velocity, which we feel as tactile sensations, within about an octave of their port tune. I believe that is due to a combination of factors, including increased air moving through the ports, an increasingly out-of-phase condition between the driver and the ports as the subwoofer approaches its tuning point, and increased ringing.

That out-of-phase condition was pretty well demonstrated a couple of years ago on the Nearfield Ported MBM thread, when some people deliberately ran their ported mid-bass modules out-of-phase, with no increase in SPL, and achieved significant increases in mid-bass TR. I don't really see a role for THD (total harmonic distortion) in low-bass TR, and Ray's graphs certainly don't demonstrate a correlation between THD and TR. According to his distortion test results, the V1801's demonstrated far more ULF distortion than the other two subwoofers, but produced the least amount of ULF TR.

But, so far, I can't think of a good explanation for why the paper cone driver would allow the FV18 to have more low-bass TR than other ported Rythmik subwoofers. As I understand it, the paper cone is more flexible than the metal cone, and it produces approximately 3db more SPL in the mid-bass range than the one that Data-Bass measured. But, additional headroom doesn't translate into additional low-bass TR.

If it did, the FV18 with the metal cone should have more low-bass TR than PSA ported subwoofers, and the FV25HP should have more low-bass TR than the paper cone FV18. And, anecdotally at least, that is not the case. (It is also not the case with people who are able to produce very high low-bass SPL's with multiple sealed subs. The low-bass TR still lags, compared to that of ported subs.)

So, at this point, I am having to attribute the increase in low-bass TR as an unintended, and unexplained consequence, of the development of the paper cone for the FV18. FWIW, I think that subwoofer design involves both art and science, with final results sometimes surprising the designer. There are several recent examples of that, including the newer model JTR Cap 2400 and the PSA S7201.

Regards,
Mike

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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 10-24-2018 at 07:21 AM.
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post #81 of 1926 Old 10-24-2018, 07:33 AM
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@imureh , During normal every day usage, do you notice a big difference between your old and new subs? It is clear that for the test scenes that are known to have a lot of sub 20hz bass that there is a significant difference, but I am just curious how often that added output down low comes into play.
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I didn't say that the paper cone FV18 would have more low-bass (SPL) than the FV25HP. I said that, based on user reports at least, it would have more low-bass TR. Tactile response is not the same thing as loudness. And, those low-bass tactile sensations can really enhance the special effects in movies. I think that it is partly the low-bass SPL that Hop is after, and partly the low-bass TR. The FV25 will have far more low-bass SPL than he has now, while the FV18 (with the paper cone) will have both more low-bass SPL and more low-bass TR. Win-win!

To me, an even better question is why does the paper cone FV18 have more low-bass TR than the metal cone version? And, I don't know that anyone has suggested a viable answer for that yet. Here is what I know--or at least believe that I know. Ported subs, in general, can produce more particle velocity, which we feel as tactile sensations, within about an octave of their port tune. I believe that is due to a combination of factors, including increased air moving through the ports, an increasingly out-of-phase condition between the driver and the ports as the subwoofer approaches its tuning point, and increased ringing.

That out-of-phase condition was pretty well demonstrated a couple of years ago on the Nearfield Ported MBM thread, when some people deliberately ran their ported mid-bass modules out-of-phase, with no increase in SPL, and achieved significant increases in mid-bass TR. I don't really see a role for THD (total harmonic distortion) in low-bass TR, and Ray's graphs certainly don't demonstrate a correlation between THD and TR. According to his distortion test results, the V1801's demonstrated far more ULF distortion than the other two subwoofers, but produced the least amount of ULF TR.

But, so far, I can't think of a good explanation for why the paper cone driver would allow the FV18 to have more low-bass TR than other ported Rythmik subwoofers. As I understand it, the paper cone is more flexible than the metal cone, and it produces approximately 3db more SPL in the mid-bass range than the one that Data-Bass measured. But, additional headroom doesn't translate into additional low-bass TR.

If it did, the FV18 with the metal cone should have more low-bass TR than PSA ported subwoofers, and the FV25HP should have more low-bass TR than the paper cone FV18. And, anecdotally at least, that is not the case. (It is also not the case with people who are able to produce very high low-bass SPL's with multiple sealed subs. The low-bass TR still lags, compared to that of ported subs.)

So, at this point, I am having to attribute the increase in low-bass TR as an unintended, and unexplained consequence, of the development of the paper cone for the FV18. FWIW, I think that subwoofer design involves both art and science, with final results sometimes surprising the designer. There are several recent examples of that, including the newer model JTR Cap 2400 and the PSA S7201.

Regards,
Mike
Have the FV25 and FV18P been directly compared?
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Have the FV25 and FV18P been directly compared?

I don't think that they have been directly compared yet; only reported on individually and anecdotally. But, I believe that they are about to be compared directly when Todd gets his FV25HP.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #84 of 1926 Old 10-24-2018, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by chucks0 View Post
@imureh, During normal every day usage, do you notice a big difference between your old and new subs? It is clear that for the test scenes that are known to have a lot of sub 20hz bass that there is a significant difference, but I am just curious how often that added output down low comes into play.
This is a good point...I too would also like to know the difference for day to day use. I don't care about which one handled the EOT intro better... those kind of comparisons is completely pointless. I want to know how big the difference is on average when playing normal source material from various types of music and the entire movie...not cherry picked demo scenes.
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
This is a good point...I too would also like to know the difference for day to day use. I don't care about which one handled the EOT intro better... those kind of comparisons is completely pointless. I want to know how big the difference is on average when playing normal source material from various types of music and the entire movie...not cherry picked demo scenes.
I second this. I think from what I've read most are listening to movies around -10db to -15db for movies, with anywhere from 3-8db hot (some of course higher) on their subs. Certainly the FV18 will crush other subs with a 14hz scene, but that's not helpful when picking a sub unless someone wants to just play the opening of EOT over and over again.

But yeah, throughout a 2 hr movie with typical blockbuster movies, I'm wondering what the FV18 is giving that the V1801s were not...
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post #86 of 1926 Old 10-24-2018, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I don't think that they have been directly compared yet; only reported on individually and anecdotally. But, I believe that they are about to be compared directly when Todd gets his FV25HP.
In a couple of weeks we will be comparing the FV25HP with Cap 2400 in Todd's room and then with the FV18 paper cone in Ray's room. After all the testing is done, that FV25HP will rest in this spot for sometime for anybody in Houston to demo it.
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post #87 of 1926 Old 10-24-2018, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Hey guys, here are the distortion profiles for the FV18, JTR 118 and PSA V1801. I am not sure what the aluminum driver numbers were but I am not pro like @Ricci. He has better equipment than my UMIK-1 and knows what he is doing....

Actually it is my fault that I have not tested the FV-18 with the new driver already. Brian offered to send it but I have not had the available "bandwidth" for testing due to the transfer of data to DBv2 and some other projects. Now the weather has turned cold on me. Perhaps next spring we can make it happen.


On your distortion charts where is the fundamental? Distortion is in relation to the fundamental so it is hard to read anything useful from them without knowing where the fundamental is.
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Originally Posted by Ricci View Post
Actually it is my fault that I have not tested the FV-18 with the new driver already. Brian offered to send it but I have not had the available "bandwidth" for testing due to the transfer of data to DBv2 and some other projects. Now the weather has turned cold on me. Perhaps next spring we can make it happen.


On your distortion charts where is the fundamental?


Hi Ricci, I accidentally took it off. I will repost them with it added.


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post #89 of 1926 Old 10-24-2018, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
This is a good point...I too would also like to know the difference for day to day use. I don't care about which one handled the EOT intro better... those kind of comparisons is completely pointless. I want to know how big the difference is on average when playing normal source material from various types of music and the entire movie...not cherry picked demo scenes.
I second this. I think from what I've read most ate listening to movies around -10db to -15db for movies, with anywhere from 3-8db hot (some of course higher) on their subs. Certainly the FV18 will crush other subs with a 14hz scene, but that's not helpful when picking a sub unless someone wants to just play the opening of EOT over and over again.

But yeah, throughout a 2 hr movie with typical blockbuster movies, I'm wondering what the FV18 is giving that the V1801s were not...
+1
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post #90 of 1926 Old 10-24-2018, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I didn't say that the paper cone FV18 would have more low-bass (SPL) than the FV25HP. I said that, based on user reports at least, it would have more low-bass TR. Tactile response is not the same thing as loudness. And, those low-bass tactile sensations can really enhance the special effects in movies. I think that it is partly the low-bass SPL that Hop is after, and partly the low-bass TR. The FV25 will have far more low-bass SPL than he has now, while the FV18 (with the paper cone) will have both more low-bass SPL and more low-bass TR. Win-win!

To me, an even better question is why does the paper cone FV18 have more low-bass TR than the metal cone version? And, I don't know that anyone has suggested a viable answer for that yet. Here is what I know--or at least believe that I know. Ported subs, in general, can produce more particle velocity, which we feel as tactile sensations, within about an octave of their port tune. I believe that is due to a combination of factors, including increased air moving through the ports, an increasingly out-of-phase condition between the driver and the ports as the subwoofer approaches its tuning point, and increased ringing.

That out-of-phase condition was pretty well demonstrated a couple of years ago on the Nearfield Ported MBM thread, when some people deliberately ran their ported mid-bass modules out-of-phase, with no increase in SPL, and achieved significant increases in mid-bass TR. I don't really see a role for THD (total harmonic distortion) in low-bass TR, and Ray's graphs certainly don't demonstrate a correlation between THD and TR. According to his distortion test results, the V1801's demonstrated far more ULF distortion than the other two subwoofers, but produced the least amount of ULF TR.

But, so far, I can't think of a good explanation for why the paper cone driver would allow the FV18 to have more low-bass TR than other ported Rythmik subwoofers. As I understand it, the paper cone is more flexible than the metal cone, and it produces approximately 3db more SPL in the mid-bass range than the one that Data-Bass measured. But, additional headroom doesn't translate into additional low-bass TR.

If it did, the FV18 with the metal cone should have more low-bass TR than PSA ported subwoofers, and the FV25HP should have more low-bass TR than the paper cone FV18. And, anecdotally at least, that is not the case. (It is also not the case with people who are able to produce very high low-bass SPL's with multiple sealed subs. The low-bass TR still lags, compared to that of ported subs.)

So, at this point, I am having to attribute the increase in low-bass TR as an unintended, and unexplained consequence, of the development of the paper cone for the FV18. FWIW, I think that subwoofer design involves both art and science, with final results sometimes surprising the designer. There are several recent examples of that, including the newer model JTR Cap 2400 and the PSA S7201.

Regards,
Mike
Well stated @mthomas47

Based on what I know, I have a hard time believing the paper cone is the culprit for perceived increased ULF TR. I tend to believe it has to do with the port changes over the paper cone. As the sub gets closer to the port tune, the ports are producing most of the ULF...so if there is an increase in TR in that region, I would think it's more related to the port.

Another thought is perhaps the paper cone impacts the phase transition as it gets closer to port tune in some way...

The reason for increased TR, is increased Sound Intensity. Sound intensity = pressure * particle velocity

Particle velocity is increased when out of phase conditions occur. There are two different "out of phase conditions".

  • In the nearfield, pressure and particle velocity are out of phase because of the sound field it is in (nearfield defined as within a wavelength). This explains why any sub close to you generates more TR than that same sub further away at the same spl.
  • The second out of phase condition is when the pressure waves themselves are out of phase. A perfect example of this is ported subs. As the sub approaches port tune, the driver and port gradually become out of phase,. This causes increased particle velocity, increasing Sound Intensity, and therefore increasing TR. This also explains why ported subs have more TR than sealed around tune; no phase shift for sealed subs.

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