Subwoofer comparisons and impressions - Page 30 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #871 of 1824 Old 02-18-2019, 07:21 AM
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I bet it all depends on their responses and those MBMs fill in a necessary null or something. It could just be plain old more output. A long time ago I started with SVS subs that can dig to 12hz in room and then I tried some PA 18 inch horn loaded subs and the impact and output was great. I instantly wanted that with the low end of the SVS and ended up with 4 LLTs tuned to 12hz. I needed that many to match the upper end of the dual 18inch horns but the low end was so much better now. Now it has become try whatever is new and hyped and keep what I prefer in my room. So far the winner in my room is high excursion 18s in an IB with an LT. However, I need two more for 30-70hz. I could just put some PA460s in my IB for that midbass but my speakers have dual 12s and just crossover lower(70hz).
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post #872 of 1824 Old 02-18-2019, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I think a large part of what Hop is describing is attributable to low-bass TR (tactile response). And, low-bass TR seems to be the product of more than just SPL. The best explanation for what causes low-bass TR is particle velocity, and although I don't know that anyone has a perfect understanding of the precise relationship between particle velocity and low-bass TR, there is strong evidence that low-tuned ported subs can produce more of it.

Ported subs can typically produce more TR within about an octave of their port tunes than comparable sealed subs can. And, for whatever reason, the ported JTR subs seem especially good at producing TR. This is one of the things that I personally thought that Hop would like about the Cap 2400ULF's, in comparison with his V3601's, and I think that it's cool that he noticed it immediately.

For HT purposes, big, low-tuned ported subs which are capable of producing large amounts of particle velocity, and the TR that accompanies them, can be a real plus--especially on a concrete slab. The tactile energy just seems to ripple across the surface of the concrete with some content.

FWIW, that's what I think Hop was experiencing, even with a moderate sub boost. When he really gets those guys dialed-in the way he wants, with respect to the low-frequency adjust and room correction--look out!

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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
In addition to what Mike said, it will depend a lot on the room and how perceptible you are to TR. Out friend Todd runs his subs somewhere between 10-15db hot with LFA adjust at max and that is what he thinks gives him the right balance and I think when I heard it in his room, it sounded about right.


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Very good info. thx. My room has very good TR (IMO). I feel a lot of TR in different frequencies as well. My only surprise was that he felt all that at 5dB only. So finally, yesterday, I tried it out in my room with 5dB. I always use 8-11dB for movies. With 5dB hot, Played Tron and could feel the TR. Not like crazy but could feel it. Some scenes did shake the panels in room a bit. So I guess one doesn't have to run the subs too hot to get the TR if you are on suspended floor. For the the biggest problem I have is that the Door + ceiling lights start shaking and making noises that takes the fun away. Anyway to make the door stop from shaking like this? The door will shake and not much we can do but I was thinking of putting gasket tape all around the edges and see if it will absorb the rattle door makes with its frame? For ceiling lights, I can take them out and its much better but not sure what much I can do lolllss.
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post #873 of 1824 Old 02-18-2019, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ Make sure it’s an HD version of the minidsp you are getting. It will be the most noticeable and cheapest upgrade to your system now that you have the 2400ulf’s. Additionally if you feel mibbass is lacking with the 2400ulf’s pair (doubtful), just add a 25 or 30hz + 3db high shelf in the minidsp HD and you should be golden.
What should be the Q? Also I thought that MB would be around 50-100. Isn't 25-30 considered Low Frequency? If you call 20-30 Mid, what's low then??? 10Hz
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post #874 of 1824 Old 02-18-2019, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Will he notice any loss in mid bass comparing his FV18’s with the v3601’s then? Now we are talking about +6db advantage above 40hz on each of the v3601 over the FV18 (based on what you said above with the v1801). Based on what MK said above, the mid bass impact should be the same as Imureh is no where reaching the limit of his FV18’s pair in his room. If that is the case then those extra outputs above 40hz from the v3601’s are moot. I am real interested in reading Hop’s take on this when he can compare his dual 2400ulf’s.
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Why do some people with loads of full bandwidth headroom (125-130+ dB) add efficient dedicated drivers like the PA460’s for midbass and often report these subs add a ton of potent midbass to the experience if their current full range subs aren’t even pushing their limits?

I’ve read nearly every thread on this subject, and tried a couple MBM’s nearfield for a year before adding a pair of DIY subs behind me, but I haven’t ever experienced a truly killer system like aforementioned. That said, I’m more about deep bass TR...just curious.
I am also very interested in hearing more subjective comparisons of the PSA subs and the JTR subs (although I have already heard several people describe their subjective impressions). But, when we talk about how much mid-bass is enough, or how much low-bass is enough, I'm not sure that we always make the correct distinctions with respect to what "enough" actually means. Are we talking about enough SPL, or are we talking about enough TR, because those two things are not identical.

For instance, some people can't seem to get quite enough low-bass TR from their subwoofers no matter how much extension or SPL they have. Even with suspended wood floors, and low-tuned ported subs, they still want MOAR, so they add Crowson's or other TT's, to get more of the deep rumbling, shaking, thudding sensations they want.

Similarly, some people can't seem to get enough chest punch to satisfy their personal tastes, no matter how much mid-bass SPL they have. So, they add nearfield ported mid-bass modules (such as the Behringer B1200D) specifically to increase the chest punch sensations they feel. And, sometimes even implementing those additional low-bass and mid-bass measures still doesn't seem to give some people the same sensations that they hear others describe. In my opinion, a lot of the difference in the sensations lies in us.

I am not sure what Hop will find out when he has both Cap 2400ULF's up and running. Everyone is different, so it's hard to prejudge his personal subjective impressions. For most people, once we have enough mid-bass SPL, at our preferred listening levels, we can turn our attention to the low-frequencies, and increase our SPL for frequencies below 20Hz. But, again, everyone is different, and although we can make generalizations which may be valid, they certainly won't hold true for everyone.

If we make any mistakes on threads like this one, it would be in assuming that the experiences of the people who are doing the comparisons are directly relevant to our own situations. The room sizes, subwoofer placements, and subwoofer capabilities can be directly relevant, and yet our own perceptions and preferences can still be sufficiently individualistic to negate some of the relevance. I think it's important to periodically remind ourselves of that, because we see examples of our different perceptions and preferences all the time.

Regards,
Mike

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post #875 of 1824 Old 02-18-2019, 09:05 AM
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Exactly! I literally tried to ramp up the TR in my room by getting rid of the back row and making a bigger wooden riser so all the seats are off the concrete. The TR did increase a bunch but it annoyed most everybody that experienced it. It could get overwhelming at times and dialing it back would dial back the pressure that I liked. Now this was done with all ported 10hz tuned 18s with 4 nearfield. The shaking was cool but it started to wear on us. I watch movies at reference with the subs 6-12 dB hot so when a big bass movie came along it literally blurred your vision from all the shaking. Cool, but everbody but me did not like it. I still prefer less shake and more subwoofer spl. I liked my experience better on concrete than the wooden riser. This is because I like 126+dB of bass from 5-80hz and TR to go anlong with that on suspended floors or risers is nuts. I can see 115 dB being fine and needing more to feel it more, but that one Vib sensor graph Sburger showed must have been literally insane and personnally I would not be able to focus on the screen while shaking that much.
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post #876 of 1824 Old 02-18-2019, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
What should be the Q? Also I thought that MB would be around 50-100. Isn't 25-30 considered Low Frequency? If you call 20-30 Mid, what's low then??? 10Hz
I would start out with small Q like 0.5 to have the shelf slowly risen. HS at 25-30hz to reach the desired gain in the mid bass range of 60hz and above. I was suggesting this to experiment if Hop feels it is needed.
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post #877 of 1824 Old 02-18-2019, 11:24 AM
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there is a point where the bass becomes too overwhelming which ruins the experience. I notice this mainly with tv commercials as they are all over the map with bass output. my little office setup (sealed rm with velodyne hgs12) delivers more annoying bass than my main open layout room. I can see how people need to tweak alot with sealed rooms. bass can get well overdone.
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post #878 of 1824 Old 02-18-2019, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Hop has the 2400ULF 12 feet from MLP and at -17 MV running the sub 5dB hot. The sub was producing 109dB @ 2M (115dB - 17dB + 5dB + 6dB). 109dB is well under the V3601 or 2400ULF's CEA-2010 Max burst above 30Hz. My understanding is that he would need to listen at louder than -6 MV to realize the V3601's efficiency above 40Hz.

What's interesting is Hop said the 2400ULF out-guned the V3601s in World War Z - grenade scene. This scene has a hot sweep centered at 20Hz but goes down to 15Hz or so, thus, making it one of the chuff inducing scenes. 2 V3601s should still have more output than 2400ULF @ 16Hz.

This is interesting. But if I'm reading this right there is also pretty good content extending below 15 Hz and perhaps that was why this occurred. I should have also been more specific with this scene. At the beginning of the scene the single 2400ULF isn't outgunning the dual V3601's but I've never focused on the beginning of this scene, I've always paid attention to the ending of the scene... the way it keeps digging deeper as it goes. I love it. It seemed to me that at the very end of the scene when things really get deeper (the part I like best) the 2400ULF was able to deliver more impact.

I really need to hear back from Jeff so I can get this amp fixed and do this right... comparing dual V3601's to dual 2400ULFs. I think both subs will shine in different places but this sucks sitting here in a holding pattern. At least it's teaching me patience (I'm trying to put a positive spin on it. ).
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post #879 of 1824 Old 02-18-2019, 01:14 PM
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From my personal experience, I found the JTR Cap 118HT's sound signature to be closest to the PSA V1801. Therefore, by extension, the 118HT should be closer to the V3601 as well. I compared the V1801, Cap 118HT and 1400 in one setting, the 118HT and Rythmik FV18 in another setting, level matched so it was much easier to discern the difference though their port tune are not drastically different. Later, I had the opportunity to compare the Cap 1400 and the Monolith 15" at home. Even with them level matched, they sound different as well.

The high excursion 18" drivers in the Cap 1400 and 2400ULF/4000ULF just sound different from the 20ish mm drivers even when playing content above ULF at the same spl.

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post #880 of 1824 Old 02-18-2019, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
From my personal experience, I found the JTR Cap 118HT's sound signature to be closest to the PSA V1801. Therefore, by extension, the 118HT should be closer to the V3601 as well. I compared the V1801, Cap 118HT and 1400 in one setting, the 118HT and Rythmik FV18 in another setting, level matched so it was much easier to discern the difference though their port tune are not drastically different. Later, I had the opportunity to compare the Cap 1400 and the Monolith 15" at home. Even with them level matched, they sound different as well.

The high excursion 18" drivers in the Cap 1400 and 2400ULF/4000ULF just sound different from the 20ish mm drivers even when playing content above ULF at the same spl.
In what way?

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post #881 of 1824 Old 02-18-2019, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Ferrari_1996 View Post
In what way?
For example, I get potent TR at 25 and 30Hz in my HT as shown below:


Watching Interstellar - First Black Hole scene (Hot 30Hz) with the Cap 1400/4000ULF feels like this:


but NOT with the Monoprice 15". When your surroundings is resonating, it feels like the walls and ceiling are closing in on you and can induce a feeling of claustrophobia.
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post #882 of 1824 Old 02-18-2019, 08:27 PM - Thread Starter
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In what way?


I agree with Chucky. The high excursion drivers have a distinct sound signature which is quite thick and full. His description of the 118 is what I found too.


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post #883 of 1824 Old 02-18-2019, 08:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post



I really need to hear back from Jeff so I can get this amp fixed and do this right... comparing dual V3601's to dual 2400ULFs. I think both subs will shine in different places but this sucks sitting here in a holding pattern. At least it's teaching me patience (I'm trying to put a positive spin on it. ).

You are having PSA CS withdrawls

Can’t top Tom and Rythmik in that regard. Jeff will get back to you but when he is ready. Hold on bud. It took about a month for Todd to get his replacement amp and same for me to get a return label to send the 118s back.



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post #884 of 1824 Old 02-18-2019, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
You are having PSA CS withdrawals

Can’t top Tom and Rythmik in that regard. Jeff will get back to you but when he is ready. Hold on bud. It took about a month for Todd to get his replacement amp and same for me to get a return label to send the 118s back.



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post #885 of 1824 Old 02-18-2019, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I really need to hear back from Jeff so I can get this amp fixed and do this right... comparing dual V3601's to dual 2400ULFs. I think both subs will shine in different places but this sucks sitting here in a holding pattern. At least it's teaching me patience (I'm trying to put a positive spin on it. ).
Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
You are having PSA CS withdrawals

Can’t top Tom and Rythmik in that regard. Jeff will get back to you but when he is ready. Hold on bud. It took about a month for Todd to get his replacement amp and same for me to get a return label to send the 118s back.
Damn, have I missed some exciting ***** going on or what? Welcome to the dark side Hop!

Don't worry Hop, Jeff will get you sorted out. I had an issue with one of my amps which Ray and Tony were instrumental in figuring out, so needless to say, I had to get a new amp as well. It unfortunately did take a little time. And sadly, for someone wanting to unleash hell, even a day can seem like forever. But I promise you this.......it will be well worth the wait. I'm pleased to see you already notice a difference in the low end and the weight. I think you'll find the low end "tone" pervasive through the entire range of the 2400. And I agree that both the v3601 and the 2400 go about things a good bit differently. The good news is that I see you are planning on getting the miniDSP so you can definitely coax a lot of midbass out of the 2400 if you are feeling a little home sick so to speak. I'm not sure how you are holding back not playing your single 2400......believe me, just one can be extremely potent. I've been out of pocket with my system for like 5 weeks and I can't tell you how aweful movies and music sound without the 2400's. It's good to be back in the bass game.

Looking forward to your full review.

Todd
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post #886 of 1824 Old 02-19-2019, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
You are having PSA CS withdrawls

Can’t top Tom and Rythmik in that regard. Jeff will get back to you but when he is ready. Hold on bud. It took about a month for Todd to get his replacement amp and same for me to get a return label to send the 118s back.
A month? That won't fly with me. I'll return them if that ends up being the case. These big subs are too temperamental as they are, you never know when one may go down due to one thing or another and I won't sit around for a month every time that happens. I spent A LOT of money on these things and they have a 3 year warranty which is useless if you have to sit around and wait for weeks for the warranty to be addressed. That's not right nor is it professional.

Once I saw that amp wasn't working I made sure I saved all packing material so if I wasn't satisfied with the CS I could return the subs and take a different route. Thus far I've left two messages and an email. I'm a small business owner and when I go on vacation we check voice mail and email daily. Does it suck? Yeah, but if you own your own business you are never really 100% on vacation. I will tell you this, if after this wait I'm told I have to wait any extended length of time for a new amp I'm pretty sure these things are going to be returned.

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post #887 of 1824 Old 02-19-2019, 05:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
A month? That won't fly with me. I'll return them if that ends up being the case. These big subs are too temperamental as they are, you never know when one may go down due to one thing or another and I won't sit around for a month every time that happens. I spent A LOT of money on these things and they have a 3 year warranty which is useless if you have to sit around and wait for weeks for the warranty to be addressed. That's not right nor is it professional.



Once I saw that amp wasn't working I made sure I saved all packing material so if I wasn't satisfied with the CS I could return the subs and take a different route. Thus far I've left two messages and an email. I'm a small business owner and when I go on vacation we check voice mail and email daily. Does it suck? Yeah, but if you own your own business you are never really 100% on vacation. I will tell you this, if after this wait I'm told I have to wait any extended length of time for a new amp I'm pretty sure these things are going to be returned.


Can’t argue with anything you have said my friend. I hope it’s not that long but that is one of the factors you accept when dealing with a one man show and he is one to disappear once in a while. I know for sure that he does take care of any issues but again timing may not be to your liking. Fingers crossed.


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post #888 of 1824 Old 02-19-2019, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
This is interesting. But if I'm reading this right there is also pretty good content extending below 15 Hz and perhaps that was why this occurred. I should have also been more specific with this scene. At the beginning of the scene the single 2400ULF isn't outgunning the dual V3601's but I've never focused on the beginning of this scene, I've always paid attention to the ending of the scene... the way it keeps digging deeper as it goes. I love it. It seemed to me that at the very end of the scene when things really get deeper (the part I like best) the 2400ULF was able to deliver more impact.

I really need to hear back from Jeff so I can get this amp fixed and do this right... comparing dual V3601's to dual 2400ULFs. I think both subs will shine in different places but this sucks sitting here in a holding pattern. At least it's teaching me patience (I'm trying to put a positive spin on it. ).
This is a big reason why I have not pulled the trigger on a JTR product even though I really wanted to try a Cap back when the promo was running. Being on vacation isn't really an excuse that sits well with me. It's time Jeff gets somebody else involved with his business so customers get taken care of. Having to wait a couple weeks to potentially get a new item replaced or fixed that was defective out of the box is unacceptable. I can tell you if one of my Juke boxes went down and I told the location that it will be a couple weeks before I get it up and running because I am on vacation, I would lose the location. I'm a small business too and if I don't have somebody to cover for me then I don't take a lengthy vacation.

BTW I am not bashing JTR, I have exchanged emails with Jeff and he responded quickly. He also seems like a nice guy all around but at the end of the day it's business.

I hope you get that 2400 up and running soon. I have been checking in regularly for updates. I'm sure it will be worth the wait being how highly regarded JTR products are.
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post #889 of 1824 Old 02-19-2019, 06:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Subwoofer comparisons and impressions

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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
This is a big reason why I have not pulled the trigger on a JTR product even though I really wanted to try a Cap back when the promo was running. Being on vacation isn't really an excuse that sits well with me. It's time Jeff gets somebody else involved with his business so customers get taken care of. Having to wait a couple weeks to potentially get a new item replaced or fixed that was defective out of the box is unacceptable. I can tell you if one of my Juke boxes went down and I told the location that it will be a couple weeks before I get it up and running because I am on vacation, I would lose the location. I'm a small business too and if I don't have somebody to cover for me then I don't take a lengthy vacation.



BTW I am not bashing JTR, I have exchanged emails with Jeff and he responded quickly. He also seems like a nice guy all around but at the end of the day it's business.



I hope you get that 2400 up and running soon. I have been checking in regularly for updates. I'm sure it will be worth the wait being how highly regarded JTR products are.


Don’t worry bass, rythmik may be coming out with a FV28.


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post #890 of 1824 Old 02-19-2019, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
A month? That won't fly with me. I'll return them if that ends up being the case. These big subs are too temperamental as they are, you never know when one may go down due to one thing or another and I won't sit around for a month every time that happens. I spent A LOT of money on these things and they have a 3 year warranty which is useless if you have to sit around and wait for weeks for the warranty to be addressed. That's not right nor is it professional.

Once I saw that amp wasn't working I made sure I saved all packing material so if I wasn't satisfied with the CS I could return the subs and take a different route. Thus far I've left two messages and an email. I'm a small business owner and when I go on vacation we check voice mail and email daily. Does it suck? Yeah, but if you own your own business you are never really 100% on vacation. I will tell you this, if after this wait I'm told I have to wait any extended length of time for a new amp I'm pretty sure these things are going to be returned.
Congrats on new JTR subs. If you have issues in future with cust support you could try Funk or DSS. Both in my experience Nathan and David respond to PMs right away and do emails the same day or next day and both are very busy individuals. The only thing is waiting for subs to be build which took Nathan 2 months to build my sub....but at least he is available when needed.

I heard Jeff is on vacation....so just be patient. I know it sucks to be subless, etc but its worth waiting for high end product. Hope you get your amp sorted out, friend of mine had new sub sent to him when his amp was dead so Jeff does his best. In the end if JTR doesn't work out for you, I already mentioned other 2 great companies to try in future. Either way, its going to be an upgrade from your current PSA subs IMO so patience is virtue. LOL

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post #891 of 1824 Old 02-19-2019, 07:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
Congrats on new JTR subs. If you have issues in future with cust support you could try Funk or DSS. Both in my experience Nathan and David respond to PMs right away and do emails the same day or next day and both are very busy individuals. The only thing is waiting for subs to be build which took Nathan 2 months to build my sub....but at least he is available when needed.



I heard Jeff is on vacation....so just be patient. I know it sucks to be subless, etc but its worth waiting for high end product. Hope you get your amp sorted out, friend of mine had new sub sent to him when his amp was dead so Jeff does his best. In the end if JTR doesn't work out for you, I already mentioned other 2 great companies to try in future. Either way, its going to be an upgrade from your current PSA subs IMO so patience is virtue. LOL


Throw in Rythmik there as well. That will keep in within his budget plus great CS.


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post #892 of 1824 Old 02-19-2019, 07:50 AM
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To be fair to Jeff, mine were the first 2 of the new 10hz tuned and he did not have the amps in stock. He already had an ordered placed with Speakerpower and they were expected the next week after we talked. However, the shipment was delayed by Speakerpower and thus it took about 2 more weeks than it should have. Just wanted to clarify. And to be clear about the 5 weeks thing I mentioned, that was due to house remodel starting in Jan on my part, nothing to do with Jeff and JTR.

Obviously you are used to PSA and Tom's stellar CS, so it is understandable to be a little anxious but I am sure Jeff will get it sorted out. But, as for all of us, it is up to you on what level of CS you can accept. He is a one man show which definitely has it's limitations but there are some things he could do to improve his CS and communication.

Just my $.02.

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rythmik may be coming out with a FV28.

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Honestly, I don’t see how a pair of FV25HPs is not enough. The FV28 is going to be HUGE and HEAVY. What we heard at Todd’s place with one FV25 was already wrecking his house in his huge space
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post #894 of 1824 Old 02-19-2019, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
If you have issues in future with cust support you could try Funk or DSS.
I think Hop is interested in low tuned ported sub and I believe neither Funk or DSS builds ported sub.
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
I think Hop is interested in low tuned ported sub and I believe neither Funk or DSS builds ported sub.


I think funk does a model or two or can custom build one but one of them will cost about what his dual JTR cost him. DSS don’t think does.


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post #896 of 1824 Old 02-19-2019, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
I think Hop is interested in low tuned ported sub and I believe neither Funk or DSS builds ported sub.
Nathan funk will build ANYTHING as long as you can afford it. It can be dual ported 21s, ported 18s, etc. That's the thing about funk...you get to have the sub build exactly what you want without be restricted to anything....just make sure you have the funds!

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post #897 of 1824 Old 02-19-2019, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
I think funk does a model or two or can custom build one but one of them will cost about what his dual JTR cost him. DSS don’t think does.


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Nathan will do ported upon request....David isn't doing ported at the moment but he will build a custom size sealed if you have space restrictions though.

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post #898 of 1824 Old 02-19-2019, 01:03 PM
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Yeah I'm really trying to be patient, I know it will work out one way or another. But it does go to show just how great PSA's customer service is. When I got my first V3600 it arrived with a dead amp. I called Tom and he over nighted me a new amp and I was up and running in less than 24 hours. As you guys said, that's the level of CS I'm used to so this waiting game is hard.

On another note... to be clear, I am listening to just the one 2400ULF while I'm waiting. I just don't want to do any comparisons for all the reason noted earlier. I did watched Lone Survivor the other day and it sounded great so I'm not in complete withdrawal. I'm hanging in there but everyday gets a little harder but I'm doing my best. I took up knitting so help pass the time (just kidding).
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Let me know when you hear back from Jeff! I need to place an order!




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post #900 of 1824 Old 02-19-2019, 01:27 PM
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Let me know when you hear back from Jeff! I need to place an order!
Knowing you have the Rythmik big boy sub already.....I'm guessing you're gonna try out Cap 4000?

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