Subwoofer comparisons and impressions - Page 41 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1201 of 1713 Old 03-22-2019, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
With a difference like that can you get both subs up front? Assuming that beautiful curve will stay the same and it’s not dependent on the combines responses


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Moving the sub to front give me a lot of gain in Low Frequencies [port tuned to 40hz] but drops from 40-80Hz like around 9dB. Having sub on the back drops 8-9dB below 23Hz but has gain around 30-65Hz. Combining them together gives a much better response. So having 1 sub on front and 1 on back gives the best response.

Now, as I said before, FR is just one part of it. TR is another. Even tough I didn't do a heavy bass listening, I did try out on scenes that have little bit of bass. I'm not talking about explosions but like general scene where they have some music in background with some drum beats. With both subs in the back, these used to resonate in my chest. Not a lot but just a tiny bit and I loved it. Since these scenes don't need much bass, I tried them out and didn't feel it. What I can tell with very little testing is that the Bass SPL has increased. I hear more bass but that resonate part is missing in those scenes now. I think that's why @dominguez1 has a MB module just to provide that impact. I'm assuming that its NF?
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post #1202 of 1713 Old 03-22-2019, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
It's been a while since I last took a FR sweep, but think this was my last one:



So, I'd say I'm running 15-20db hot in the 10-30hz range (blue curve). The red curve is without MBMs.
Well no wonder why i didn't feel anything. I was running only 7dB hot with flat from 20-50 and 3dB lowered at 100 lolllss. There was no way I could feel it . Which MBM are you using and where is it placed? I think I might have to use one too if I want that chest slam I used to get with both subs closer.
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post #1203 of 1713 Old 03-22-2019, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
Well no wonder why i didn't feel anything. I was running only 7dB hot with flat from 20-50 and 3dB lowered at 100 lolllss. There was no way I could feel it . Which MBM are you using and where is it placed? I think I might have to use one too if I want that chest slam I used to get with both subs closer.
Looks like you may have a slight harmon house curve where your ULF is higher than midbass and xover point? You can do opposite house curve where it rises from ULF to xover point if you want more midbass and less ULF. Just a suggestion.

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post #1204 of 1713 Old 03-22-2019, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
Well no wonder why i didn't feel anything. I was running only 7dB hot with flat from 20-50 and 3dB lowered at 100 lolllss. There was no way I could feel it . Which MBM are you using and where is it placed? I think I might have to use one too if I want that chest slam I used to get with both subs closer.
lol, yes running hot definitely helps! But, I can feel it running flat as well, I just get more of the goods when I run hot.

I use the Behringer 1200D nearfield. See link below:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post43534946
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post #1205 of 1713 Old 03-22-2019, 11:47 AM
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Looks like you may have a slight harmon house curve where your ULF is higher than midbass and xover point? You can do opposite house curve where it rises from ULF to xover point if you want more midbass and less ULF. Just a suggestion.
If you see my post here, https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post57785404, it has both curves on top of each other. I used the same custom curve in both cases. There is barely any difference in MidBass area and yet when both subs were closer to MLP, they provided more that chest slam. I think its a TR thing and based on my experience, TR and chest slam can be achieved by having subs closer. I'm not saying NF close but around 60-70" close to MLP. 65" was close enough to get the chest hit and resonance with 7dB. I yet have to test with high volume and see how subs perform now but with previous setup, 7dB was plenty to get a very decent TR and chest slam.
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post #1206 of 1713 Old 03-22-2019, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
lol, yes running hot definitely helps! But, I can feel it running flat as well, I just get more of the goods when I run hot.

I use the Behringer 1200D nearfield. See link below:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post43534946
Ah yes. I do have one. I didn't bother to integrate it much because I was already getting good TR/chest slam with my subs but now I think I'll need it if new setup doesn't do it well. I'm very sure you have it placed VNF like right behind the couch?
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post #1207 of 1713 Old 03-22-2019, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
If you see my post here, https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post57785404, it has both curves on top of each other. I used the same custom curve in both cases. There is barely any difference in MidBass area and yet when both subs were closer to MLP, they provided more that chest slam. I think its a TR thing and based on my experience, TR and chest slam can be achieved by having subs closer. I'm not saying NF close but around 60-70" close to MLP. 65" was close enough to get the chest hit and resonance with 7dB. I yet have to test with high volume and see how subs perform now but with previous setup, 7dB was plenty to get a very decent TR and chest slam.
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
Ah yes. I do have one. I didn't bother to integrate it much because I was already getting good TR/chest slam with my subs but now I think I'll need it if new setup doesn't do it well. I'm very sure you have it placed VNF like right behind the couch?

FWIW, I definitely think you are on the right track now with your current subwoofer arrangement of one in front, and one in back. If you can get that much more low-frequency SPL with your new arrangement, I think that you will be way ahead of the game. Then, as noted, you can just use your B1200D to increase your mid-bass TR (chest punch). And, you can adjust that MBM, in both position and in volume, to give you just the right amount of extra punch.

I think it is far harder to achieve good low-frequency SPL than it is to achieve good mid-bass SPL and TR. And the more that you boost your subwoofers, the more that you will observe the <20Hz differences that Dom has been talking about. Once you have the low-frequency sound and TR you want, I believe it is much easier to augment your mid-bass; especially if you already have a Behringer on hand. The hardest part is to get the low-frequency response to begin with, if that is something you want.

Regards,
Mike
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post #1208 of 1713 Old 03-22-2019, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
Ah yes. I do have one. I didn't bother to integrate it much because I was already getting good TR/chest slam with my subs but now I think I'll need it if new setup doesn't do it well. I'm very sure you have it placed VNF like right behind the couch?
It's not VNF, just NF. It's about a foot away from the couch due to aesthetic reasons...
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post #1209 of 1713 Old 03-22-2019, 04:01 PM
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Hey Dom , good to see you around a bit. We need Another GTG.
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post #1210 of 1713 Old 03-22-2019, 07:58 PM
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What dimensions are your room? I have a 1430 cubic foot room but on carpet over concrete. I like high excursion drivers much more than 20-23 mm drivers. I would think the floor and response would matter more. What was the response of the 2400 when it sound bad?
Im on suspended floors...my twin 19mm excursion drivers are all around better than my ultra high excursion(HST-18) driver even when it was paired with an HT-18(20+mm?). I'm sure a pair of HST's would have been ridiculous down low, but I love the mid and upper bass performance I'm getting from my 97 dB drivers. It's the right balance for me, likely in part because I have mains with mediocre capability. I'm in the process of upgrading my mains, but I suspect my "hybrid" style drivers are still the best all around solution for my needs. They would probably fall short in your room for what you are looking for.
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post #1211 of 1713 Old 03-23-2019, 06:43 AM
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I started with 20mm drivers(DIY). I used to own twin folded horn 18s and Danley DTS-10s and other horn subs. The DTS-10s went to 8hz in my room. I love mid bass but once you have both at the same levels it is hard going back. I had 12 SI 18s and trust me, midbass from that is on par with all subs with 140 dB capable. Suspended floors would make that hard to control though. Just remember guys, without a blind test we have bias kicking in as well.
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post #1212 of 1713 Old 03-23-2019, 07:38 AM
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Hey Dom , good to see you around a bit. We need Another GTG.
That would be cool to check out your new setup. What are you running now?
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post #1213 of 1713 Old 03-23-2019, 10:25 AM
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Re audio XXX 18s with a LT boost. The speakerpower amp handles it much better being more efficient. I built my own speakers featuring dual 10s and dual ring radiators, they sound fantastic!
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post #1214 of 1713 Old 03-23-2019, 12:30 PM
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Yes, running hotter and lower is the key.

Here is my response. I don't use any EQ and let my placement do it's thing.

Sorry missed this post. Waaiittttt. This 5Hz boost, is it room gain or you are using LS EQ?
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I started with 20mm drivers(DIY). I used to own twin folded horn 18s and Danley DTS-10s and other horn subs. The DTS-10s went to 8hz in my room. I love mid bass but once you have both at the same levels it is hard going back. I had 12 SI 18s and trust me, midbass from that is on par with all subs with 140 dB capable. Suspended floors would make that hard to control though. Just remember guys, without a blind test we have bias kicking in as well.
Sorry couldn't tell if you are using DTS-10 or SI 18's??? I love love love MB punch. I made a recent change and still have to test it out. You are 4 hours away from me by driving . Why all the good setups are so far away. I yet have to find some crazy setup in NJ/PA.
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Increasing SPL usually increases TR. Achieving more TR at the same [or lower] SPL is what can be elusive.

I thought I had TR perfected (to my liking) with my Funk Audio horns. I removed the MBMs (Turbosound iP12s) and put them up for sale. I actually lent them to a prospective buyer to trial. Then, when I hosted company my wife insisted I decrease volume. At -10dB midbass TR just wasn't the same. I now have the MBMs back to reintegrate.

While I was a little ticked off at the wife at first, I agree with her. Enough TR allows for full enjoyment at lower SPL levels. I have the bedroom dialed in perfectly. She has never complained about the volume being too high. Main subwoofer is a Monolith 10 firing into a front corner. The secret weapons are dual AR FPS-10s under the beds (split king).


The FPS-10s have a port tune ~40Hz and give me much of the TR a B1200d. However the SQ is night & day better than a B1200d when used as the only sub (even when not deployed nearfield). I am hoping to understand why via measurements.
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post #1217 of 1713 Old 03-23-2019, 03:39 PM
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Increasing SPL usually increases TR. Achieving more TR at the same [or lower] SPL is what can be elusive.

I thought I had TR perfected (to my liking) with my Funk Audio horns. I removed the MBMs (Turbosound iP12s) and put them up for sale. I actually lent them to a prospective buyer to trial. Then, when I hosted company my wife insisted I decrease volume. At -10dB midbass TR just wasn't the same. I now have the MBMs back to reintegrate.

While I was a little ticked off at the wife at first, I agree with her. Enough TR allows for full enjoyment at lower SPL levels. I have the bedroom dialed in perfectly. She has never complained about the volume being too high. Main subwoofer is a Monolith 10 firing into a front corner. The secret weapons are dual AR FPS-10s under the beds (split king).


The FPS-10s have a port tune ~40Hz and give me much of the TR a B1200d. However the SQ is night & day better than a B1200d when used as the only sub (even when not deployed nearfield). I am hoping to understand why via measurements.
I'm so glad you shared this Marc. I always wanted to have a sub that I could put under my Futon but didn't know that it was commercially available. I did a quick search but couldn't find their main site. Amazon/Ebay selling them but they are all out . I'd buy one in a heart beat and try it out in my office.
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post #1218 of 1713 Old 03-23-2019, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm so glad you shared this Marc. I always wanted to have a sub that I could put under my Futon but didn't know that it was commercially available. I did a quick search but couldn't find their main site. Amazon/Ebay selling them but they are all out . I'd buy one in a heart beat and try it out in my office.


I looked for them too. Looks like they are discounted and did not see anything replacing them.


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post #1219 of 1713 Old 03-23-2019, 05:08 PM
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I'm so glad you shared this Marc. I always wanted to have a sub that I could put under my Futon but didn't know that it was commercially available. I did a quick search but couldn't find their main site. Amazon/Ebay selling them but they are all out . I'd buy one in a heart beat and try it out in my office.
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I looked for them too. Looks like they are discounted and did not see anything replacing them.


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Parts Express has something similar in stock (Dayton Audio SUB-1000L).
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...RoCgGUQAvD_BwE

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post #1220 of 1713 Old 03-23-2019, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Parts Express has something similar in stock (Dayton Audio SUB-1000L).

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...RoCgGUQAvD_BwE


Thanks man. I wonder though if it is powerful enough and the SQ better than behringer and as good as the AR FPS -10


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post #1221 of 1713 Old 03-23-2019, 05:38 PM
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Thanks man. I wonder though if it is powerful enough and the SQ better than behringer and as good as the AR FPS -10


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No idea, but at least the port is facing the right way for TR on the Dayton.

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post #1222 of 1713 Old 03-24-2019, 06:30 AM
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Sorry missed this post. Waaiittttt. This 5Hz boost, is it room gain or you are using LS EQ?
It is all the above. My drivers, processor, and amp have less rolloff with my room having lots of gain. I think this is with the LFA at half.

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post #1223 of 1713 Old 03-24-2019, 09:26 AM
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^^ You left out an important part: a tiny room
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17x14. Low ceilings but most importantly mostly all concrete walls surrounding the theater.
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post #1225 of 1713 Old 03-24-2019, 10:34 AM
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Parts Express has something similar in stock (Dayton Audio SUB-1000L).
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...RoCgGUQAvD_BwE
Awesome find! I wonder if these would fit underneath my HT seating...hmmm.

My TR is optimized for my MLP. Side seating could use some boost to match MLP...
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Re audio XXX 18s with a LT boost. The speakerpower amp handles it much better being more efficient. I built my own speakers featuring dual 10s and dual ring radiators, they sound fantastic!
How many XXX's?
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Just 2 for now. Adding two more. The low end is is amazing on these.
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post #1228 of 1713 Old 03-24-2019, 04:42 PM
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Awesome find! I wonder if these would fit underneath my HT seating...hmmm.

My TR is optimized for my MLP. Side seating could use some boost to match MLP...


Hey Paulo, have you see the BOSS thread? I'm trying it out now on my MLP seat and it's pretty great. Combining BOSS with the Crowson currently, and debating getting rid of the VNF sub.

Post 29 has the details:


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...l#post56519422
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post #1229 of 1713 Old 03-24-2019, 04:48 PM
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@dominguez1 , @MKtheater , @Marc Alexander + others,

As you guys know, I recently moved one of my sub to the front and wanted to compare what difference it brings. I have a question to confirm my understanding before I post my findings of changes. I'll show two FR here from Dirac that will allow you to see Before/After changes Dirac made in the system for sub. My subs provided very good TR when they were both 65" away from MLP but since the FR wasn't as good, I decided to move one sub to front to get better FR. Have a look at this Dirac correction when subs were 65" away specially below 23Hz.


Dirac applies a max of 10dB boost where needed. I designed the custom curve and based on that it boosted 10dB below 23Hz. Please keep in mind that there is a 10dB gain below 23Hz here.

Now have a look at the new correction where 1 sub is on the front and 1 on back. Notice that its pretty much flat below 23Hz here so it had to apply 5dB of boost to match my curve. Its the same curve but since the front sub is providing a lot of gain below 23Hz, Dirac doesn't have to apply more that 5dB to match the curve.



My question: If I want to compare the TR of the system, should I boost below 23Hz 10dB where sub is on the front? Even though in REW the FR looks much better when sub is on the front,it doesn't provide as much TR. Is it because in first case, I had a 10dB of boost below 23Hz and in 2nd its 5dB of boost. Should I boost low end (below 23Hz) to make it an apple to apple comparison??? I firs thought that if FR is matched then we are good but then I'm realizing may be that 10dB boost even though doesn't provide good FR, it still makes the driver move a lot more and therefore provide more TR. Can you please clarify if my understanding is correct???
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Last edited by harrisu; 03-24-2019 at 04:53 PM.
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post #1230 of 1713 Old 03-24-2019, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Hey Paulo, have you see the BOSS thread? I'm trying it out now on my MLP seat and it's pretty great. Combining BOSS with the Crowson currently, and debating getting rid of the VNF sub.

Post 29 has the details:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...l#post56519422
Hey Sheldon. I didn’t realize that you had already tried it. How does the BOSS compare to the Crowsons? Is it as good, difference?Can the BOSS replace the Crowsons?
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