Subwoofer comparisons and impressions - Page 46 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1351 of 1758 Old 04-11-2019, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Based on data bass the f18 has lower distortion than the funk FW 21.


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You are looking at the graph wrong. At max volume overall between the two yes the Funk has higher distortion but is also playing much higher DB too! Look at Funks 115db and Rythmik at 115db….funk has less distortion. Why do we look at 115db? Because Rythmik is maxing out while Funk is still cruising with plenty of headroom left.
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post #1352 of 1758 Old 04-11-2019, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Based on data bass the f18 has lower distortion than the funk FW 21.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Not it doesn't, compare the same 115 dB sweep. The Funk has 11.2% at 20hz, the F18 has 34.2% at 20hz. The funk is even much better below 20hz which is the point of ULF. Both are super clean above 20hz at the same levels. If you drive the funk louder distortion goes up but it can play louder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
You have to compare both subwoofers at their max CEA-2010 passing capabilities, not at 115dB.




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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Says who? The level of each are not close, not apples to apples. You are talking 4 dB differences and more the higher in frequency you go. So at the same level the Funk is cleaner at 20hz and below. That is apples to apples. The good news, my sub says it produces 40% thd at 10hz with a 115 dB sweep, and in my room I get 2% THD at 10hz at 115 dB.
@imureh , @MKtheater is correct.
@chucky7 's and PSA's old charts had many us believing that the CEA passing capabilities are what matters. This is false (I fell for it too). You should be looking at the multi-series charts to understand the distortion characteristics (not published by PSA).

The Rythmik direct-servo actually makes the CEA max comparisons even less relevant vs others because it behaves quite differently in the way distortion levels rise vs output.

Last edited by Marc Alexander; 04-11-2019 at 11:45 AM.
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post #1353 of 1758 Old 04-11-2019, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ereed View Post
You are looking at the graph wrong. At max volume overall between the two yes the Funk has higher distortion but is also playing much higher DB too! Look at Funks 115db and Rythmik at 115db….funk has less distortion. Why do we look at 115db? Because Rythmik is maxing out while Funk is still cruising with plenty of headroom left.


Then see my other post above about the FV25HP


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post #1354 of 1758 Old 04-11-2019, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
I really hope you do. The one we heard at the Houston GTG did not sound good so perhaps in your product it will.
Did someone bring a DIY 21IPAL to that GTG?

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post #1355 of 1758 Old 04-11-2019, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Yup,



You cannot just take a 2d slice(or even less) of a 3d data-set like others are doing. Having SIGNIFICANTLY lower cea-2010 will have the potential to be dramatically more audible than arguing about 20% versu 30% thd <25hz. You're trading one (relatively)benign form of distortion for another VERY audible form of distortion(compression).



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Tom, are you not able to utilize DSP to gracefully compress/limit? I'm not sure I agree with this being more audible than high THD (which seems to be rising exponentially once ~30Hz is reached in many of my measurements).
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post #1356 of 1758 Old 04-11-2019, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
The funk will have more output and will have less distortion at lower volume but never lower distortion at their max passing CEA-2010 numbers. If that is the case, then the FV25HP destroys the Funk 21” at 120dB. At 120db the FV25HP has 16.5% @ 20Hz and the Funk has 38.4%.


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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Then see my other post above about the FV25HP


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My first comment was between the F18 and Funk 21.0 which are both sealed designs. One being 18 inch driver vs 21 inch driver.

Now looking at the FV25hp which are ported dual 15s vs sealed 21 inch funk sub. Not apples to apples really but if you want to compare the FV25hp has more output 30hz and below but at 40hz and up the funk is killing it. Now on to distortion at 115db while both are below 10% at 30hz and below the Funk is more linear. I doubt you will be able to hear it and distortion will be much lower in your room vs outside testing with max output. So it shows that single 21 inch driver handles very well.....dual 15s have more cone area than single 21 inch so you know. Its a very clean ported subwoofer for sure!
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post #1357 of 1758 Old 04-11-2019, 12:40 PM
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The whole point above is that larger cone drivers can play louder with less distortion if done right. And same to be said the more subs you add in your room the more you can play at same spl with less distortion as well. More cone area you have, the less the cone has to travel to achieve the same spl, therefore having less overall distortion by not maxing its capabilities.

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post #1358 of 1758 Old 04-11-2019, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Appropriate QC and customer service demand a given amount of company resources which, in turn, will dictate final pricing. I know this may all be alien to your brand associations.

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post #1359 of 1758 Old 04-11-2019, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
I really hope you do. The one we heard at the Houston GTG did not sound good so perhaps in your product it will.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Did someone bring a DIY 21IPAL to that GTG?


Apparently you sent one Mark, although if you don't bother to dial it in

Quote:
Originally Posted by blake18 View Post
It's a 21" ported design, with dual 6" ports, and available in 1200 watts and 4000 watts. It's available in 4.5" coil and 6" coil. These things look like total monsters. Any thoughts on them? I'm a little puzzled on the usable output only extending to 14hz in room. These things are HUGE, and have a 21" inch driver with powerful amps and massive ports. I'd imagine they could at least go to 10hz, but I suppose that does depend on port tune.

Posted reply by imureh

https://seatonsound.net/product/x21subwoofer/
We listened to this sub at the Houston GTG. Mark had sent in a demo unit. The port tune seems to be around 20hz but it as been stated that with one port plugged it would tune to 13hz. The driver is an accordion style driver with tons of mid bass. It sounded more like a party sub to me but of course we did not dial it in perfectly. The thing is huge though. Just based on what we heard I preferred the JTR sound better for movies

8hz ULF TR for the masses and the Cashless. Like a BOSS


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post #1360 of 1758 Old 04-11-2019, 04:27 PM
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Your posts are reflections of your company.
Agree, the ONLY owner out there that posts s**** like that on many occasions.

Edit: s**** = stuff
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post #1361 of 1758 Old 04-11-2019, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
Apparently you sent one Mark, although if you don't bother to dial it in

Quote:
Originally Posted by blake18 View Post
It's a 21" ported design, with dual 6" ports, and available in 1200 watts and 4000 watts. It's available in 4.5" coil and 6" coil. These things look like total monsters. Any thoughts on them? I'm a little puzzled on the usable output only extending to 14hz in room. These things are HUGE, and have a 21" inch driver with powerful amps and massive ports. I'd imagine they could at least go to 10hz, but I suppose that does depend on port tune.

Posted reply by imureh

https://seatonsound.net/product/x21subwoofer/
We listened to this sub at the Houston GTG. Mark had sent in a demo unit. The port tune seems to be around 20hz but it as been stated that with one port plugged it would tune to 13hz. The driver is an accordion style driver with tons of mid bass. It sounded more like a party sub to me but of course we did not dial it in perfectly. The thing is huge though. Just based on what we heard I preferred the JTR sound better for movies
Maybe the demo unit Mark sent was a 21DS115-4, not a 21IPAL?

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post #1362 of 1758 Old 04-11-2019, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Maybe the demo unit Mark sent was a 21DS115-4, not a 21IPAL?


Everyone at the Gtg thought it was an IPAL but based on Mark’s response seems like it was not. They look identical.


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post #1363 of 1758 Old 04-11-2019, 07:27 PM
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I think that 21 is a different woofer. It sounds like the WW speaker cabinets with the DS woofer, and probably not setup correctly.

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post #1364 of 1758 Old 04-11-2019, 07:52 PM
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GTGs are fun but very hard to setup multiple speakers or subs for their best performance.
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post #1365 of 1758 Old 04-11-2019, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Maybe the demo unit Mark sent was a 21DS115-4, not a 21IPAL?
I can confirm looking back on my text with Mark that that was not the ipal. It was the 21ds115. I announced it to everyone because I was asked that question. Though, everyone may not have been paying attention. There were like 20 people there all talking, listening to loud subs, eating and drinking. I was mostly drinking. 🤪

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post #1366 of 1758 Old 04-12-2019, 07:12 AM
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Really enjoying the thread! Imureh, do you feel the fv25hp has the same “deeper, fuller” sound you were looking for and found in you fv18 paper cone? Looking to upgrade, and the fv25hp’s are at the top of my list. But I’m very curious about the new PSA offering. Thanks
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post #1367 of 1758 Old 04-12-2019, 08:21 AM
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^^ Only way to find out is to try them at home. I know it gets very expensive this way, kudo Imureh for doing exactly this on many occasions before settling down on the FV18 pair (at least for now ).
You will find most folks recommend the sub they own or with a little bias. I try hard not to be but still can be read/seen as such through my posts. My point is to be careful when taking folks' advise/suggestion when shopping for sub.
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post #1368 of 1758 Old 04-12-2019, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Dcal215 View Post
Really enjoying the thread! Imureh, do you feel the fv25hp has the same “deeper, fuller” sound you were looking for and found in you fv18 paper cone? Looking to upgrade, and the fv25hp’s are at the top of my list. But I’m very curious about the new PSA offering. Thanks
If you are on a suspended floor and the size of the FV25HP is not an issue, then it's no brainer. Go with the FV25HP over the FV18 paper cone.

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post #1369 of 1758 Old 04-12-2019, 08:54 AM
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Thanks for the feedback. No I am in a basement, but the Fv25hp’s Will fit nicely, I’ve already measured! Lol
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post #1370 of 1758 Old 04-12-2019, 09:25 AM
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Thanks for the feedback. No I am in a basement, but the Fv25hp’s Will fit nicely, I’ve already measured! Lol

Then go for it my friend

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post #1371 of 1758 Old 04-12-2019, 09:35 AM
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^^ Only way to find out is to try them at home. I know it gets very expensive this way, kudo Imureh for doing exactly this on many occasions before settling down on the FV18 pair (at least for now ).
You will find most folks recommend the sub they own or with a little bias. I try hard not to be but still can be read/seen as such through my posts. My point is to be careful when taking folks' advise/suggestion when shopping for sub.
Yes it would be extremely expensive to demo multiple subs in your own home. I agree it would definitely be the best way to make a decision, but it’s not feasible for me at this time. I really feel like the guys did an excellent job at the GTG relating their impressions of each sub. Was just wondering overall if the Fv25hp had the same sound signature as the fv18 paper cone. Thanks
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post #1372 of 1758 Old 04-12-2019, 09:36 AM
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Then go for it my friend
Please don’t push me, I’m already on the edge! LOL
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post #1373 of 1758 Old 04-12-2019, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dcal215 View Post
Really enjoying the thread! Imureh, do you feel the fv25hp has the same “deeper, fuller” sound you were looking for and found in you fv18 paper cone? Looking to upgrade, and the fv25hp’s are at the top of my list. But I’m very curious about the new PSA offering. Thanks


Hi there, the FV25HP actually has a even deeper tone to it as it is tuned to 12hz with all ports open. It also has a lot of TR which surprised me to be honest as we kept hearing that servo subs and aluminum drivers don’t have TR. From and price and performance stand point I think the FV18 is a steal though FV25HP has more output and performance. If I had to decide between one FV25HP vs 2 FV18 or was limited by size and funds, I would go with the FV18


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post #1374 of 1758 Old 04-12-2019, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Hi there, the FV25HP actually has a even deeper tone to it as it is tuned to 12hz with all ports open. It also has a lot of TR which surprised me to be honest as we kept hearing that servo subs and aluminum drivers don’t have TR. From and price and performance stand point I think the FV18 is a steal though FV25HP has more output and performance. If I had to decide between one FV25HP vs 2 FV18 or was limited by size and funds, I would go with the FV18


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He is going with a pair so the FV25HPs are the way to go if size is not an issue. If I bring my FV25HP into your room, you will be doing some modifications to the center shelf you have already in place in order to fit the FV25HPs

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post #1375 of 1758 Old 04-12-2019, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Hi there, the FV25HP actually has a even deeper tone to it as it is tuned to 12hz with all ports open. It also has a lot of TR which surprised me to be honest as we kept hearing that servo subs and aluminum drivers don’t have TR. From and price and performance stand point I think the FV18 is a steal though FV25HP has more output and performance. If I had to decide between one FV25HP vs 2 FV18 or was limited by size and funds, I would go with the FV18


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Awesome, thanks for the post. Being on concrete, I’m not expecting a ton of TR, but it would be great to have. I’m more excited about content like the gunshots in John Wick, but still want to be able to cover all the really deep stuff. Also it will be 2 FV25HP’s. Thanks again!
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post #1376 of 1758 Old 04-12-2019, 10:31 AM
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If I had to decide between one FV25HP vs 2 FV18 or was limited by size and funds, I would go with the FV18
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We already know you want a pair of the FV25 or FV28 as you are not limited by anything

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If I bring my FV25HP into your room, you will be doing some modifications to the center shelf you have already in place in order to fit the FV25HPs
All he has to do is to swap out his components shelf, that's all. He had already have this smaller shelf sitting somewhere in his house
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post #1377 of 1758 Old 04-12-2019, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Dcal215 View Post
Yes it would be extremely expensive to demo multiple subs in your own home.
What are you talking about, it hasn't cost me a dime and I've had dozens and dozens of subs pass through my hands. Oh wait, reviewer. Never mind...

 
If you take yourself too seriously expect me to do the exact opposite...
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post #1378 of 1758 Old 04-12-2019, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
What are you talking about, it hasn't cost me a dime and I've had dozens and dozens of subs pass through my hands. Oh wait, reviewer. Never mind...
LOL, I am sure my thoughts and impressions would not be written nearly well or as eloquently as you do! But if anyone wants to send me their subs I’ll give it my best shot!
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post #1379 of 1758 Old 04-12-2019, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Dcal215 View Post
Awesome, thanks for the post. Being on concrete, I’m not expecting a ton of TR, but it would be great to have. I’m more excited about content like the gunshots in John Wick, but still want to be able to cover all the really deep stuff. Also it will be 2 FV25HP’s. Thanks again!
John Wick was mixed rather low, so it is not that bad...

IMO, this is hardest scene I have played in my system.


Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 04-12-2019 at 11:17 AM.
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post #1380 of 1758 Old 04-12-2019, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Subwoofer comparisons and impressions

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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
We already know you want a pair of the FV25 or FV28 as you are not limited by anything







All he has to do is to swap out his components shelf, that's all. He had already have this smaller shelf sitting somewhere in his house


Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
He is going with a pair so the FV25HPs are the way to go if size is not an issue. If I bring my FV25HP into your room, you will be doing some modifications to the center shelf you have already in place in order to fit the FV25HPs


Hey hey hey, don’t you bash my subs now.

Those FV18 are awesome but Enrico you are welcome to bring the FV25HP anytime. I am listening.


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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev 2 with Paper cone
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - PSA MT 110sr Surrounds - 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra & Premium, Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD

Last edited by imureh; 04-12-2019 at 11:39 AM.
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