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post #1591 of 1930 Old 05-22-2019, 01:34 PM
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You can also apply a LT to a sealed sub which brings up the low end even more, creating that TR a ported sub has.

Building the room, speakers, and subs.
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post #1592 of 1930 Old 05-22-2019, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Dude I am going to need a demo of the TV36 when you get it if you'll have me down. @Archaea will also be thrilled that I could also demo your BOSS platform, as I have been quite outspoken about agreeing with the concept. Not denying it, just not agreeing that I find it "True to the source"

Sounds like a plan. I was very skeptical of the whole BOSS concept, but I have been amazed with how well it integrates. Hard to deny the value.

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post #1593 of 1930 Old 05-22-2019, 04:59 PM
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[quote=beastaudio;58085284

Back to the Irene 7hz chopper scene. With more displacement than essentially all but maybe 4 members on this site, applying a 15hz HPF and playing that scene back to back then full range with no HPF, the effect was less than negligible.[/QUOTE]

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Dude I am going to need a demo of the TV36 when you get it if you'll have me down. @Archaea will also be thrilled that I could also demo your BOSS platform, as I have been quite outspoken about agreeing with the concept. Not denying it, just not agreeing that I find it "True to the source"
I was as skeptical as anyone on here about the BOSS platform. Even the low cost aside its a great upgrade. Pairing it up with some PA drivers is a home run. I've stumbled upon a bunch of movie scenes with ULF wobble that were never apparent to me until building one. The wobble in BHD is continuous besides Irene that I wasn't aware since they are subtle.

I would say you'll be impressed at what it does, even more because of the simplicity of it.
Getting TR at low volumes at 2am when the house is sleeping is just icing

8hz ULF TR for the masses and the Cashless. Like a BOSS


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post #1594 of 1930 Old 05-22-2019, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
It's filtered out yes, but not completely gone (in most cases, there are definitely some bad eggs out there, ST:B, Atomic Blonde, etc.). If there is absolutely no effect, there is nothing BEQ can do to make one. Filtered movies at 30hz slope down from the filter into the teens but looking at the graphs you can see if specific effects still take place, BEQ just brings them up out of the lower dB dredges so they are more potent. It doesn't magically create effects that never existed before.

Have you looked at the BEQ thread ba? I just glanced at a few and there is substantial output down to 10 hz and some in the single digits on the few that I saw. And these aren't "bass" movies either. Avengers sloped off pretty heavily before BEQ. Here's Atomic Blonde too.





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post #1595 of 1930 Old 05-22-2019, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Dual FV15HPs should be more than enough. @enricoclaudio what say you?
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Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
From memory @darthray already has dual PB13U's in there (correct me if I'm wrong darth?) Would moving to FV15HP's be that much of an upgrade given his listening level? ( I am discounting SQ gains, which between these two, would largely come down to personal preference)
You are correct

@enricoclaudio told me, that moving to the FV15 compare to my present PB13. Would be a lateral move, therefore the reason I got my mind set on the FV18.
Got love honest answers, and thank you both for your reply.


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post #1596 of 1930 Old 05-22-2019, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by GatoGoat View Post
What I do think is that we are about to experience some pretty awesome new options from some of our favorite ID brands. PSA and I think Seaton and maybe Rythmik possibly entering the 12" sub game , dual opposed 10" subs etc etc.
Did you mean 21" by chance? Rythmik has half a dozen 12" models already, probably the most of any company.

 
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post #1597 of 1930 Old 05-22-2019, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Nor sure I follow. BEQ is boosting the filtered frequencies mostly below 20hz.


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It's still the same amount of ULF on the disk....So no BEQ doesn't increase the amount of ULF but it does increase the depth/extension of the ULF on the disk. So the percentage is the same.
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post #1598 of 1930 Old 05-22-2019, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
It's still the same amount of ULF on the disk....So no BEQ doesn't increase the amount of ULF but it does increase the depth/extension of the ULF on the disk. So the percentage is the same.
It depends how you define "increase the amount." Louder is also more. Amount of ULF db is definitely up.
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post #1599 of 1930 Old 05-23-2019, 05:25 AM
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^^^

The BEQ conversation increasingly seems like a tomato/tomahto discussion to me, since people are using the term "more ULF" in different ways. Perhaps it helps a bit to frame the discussion in the following way. It is very hard to hear frequencies below about 20Hz, in conjunction with other bass sounds, until the volume of the ULF sounds approaches about 100Hz. That number probably varies depending on the noise floor of the room, the overall volume level, the specific hearing of the individual, etc. But, 100db is a pretty good number to use for discussion purposes.

So, if there is ULF content in a movie that is significantly lower than 100Hz, when the volume of the rest of the bass track is played at about 100Hz or higher, then for all practical purposes, the <20Hz content simply isn't there. Perhaps it adds a little almost imperceptible bass weight to the audible bass content, and perhaps it adds a little low-bass TR (which may take less SPL to be perceptible) but if the volume of the ULF content is very low, then the ULF is pretty much not there at all.

If, on the other hand, we raise the volume level of the ULF content, which is rolled-off either deliberately or otherwise, while keeping the other bass levels about the same, something interesting happens. At about 30Hz and below, approximately a 5db increase in volume is perceived as a doubling in loudness, so an increase in very low-bass SPL immediately makes it more noticeable than it was. Our attention is drawn to it more, compared to when it was virtually (or completely) imperceptible.

That may be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on the individual, but it is definitely a thing. As a somewhat neutral observer to the discussion, I think that everyone is right. How's that for a cop-out?

BEQ doesn't create ULF that never existed in a soundtrack to start with, but it also doesn't simply increase the loudness of that ULF content. In many cases, it may change the ULF from non-existent, by reason of inaudibility, to perceptible, thereby enhancing the overall special effects. So, it doesn't add to the overall percentage of ULF in a movie, but it may absolutely add to the overall audibility of ULF in a movie.

Just thought I would throw that distinction out there, for what it's worth.

Regards,
Mike


Edit: There is something else that I think may be worth noting. People who are already implementing a significant low-bass house curve may be doing the equivalent of Bass EQ for all of their movies. If they are lifting their <30Hz or <20Hz frequencies, relative to the other frequencies, then they are probably accomplishing the same thing that BEQ does, but on a broad-stroke basis.

BEQ is more movie-specific, but the net effect effect may be very similar with either BEQ or a global low-bass house curve. In fact, the person with the global low-bass house curve may end-up with more ULF, in general, because he is lifting the low-frequencies even in movies that are not rolling-off the ULF.
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #1600 of 1930 Old 05-23-2019, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
It depends how you define "increase the amount." Louder is also more. Amount of ULF db is definitely up.
all the scenes are the same length or duration of time going by the time stamps. So BEQ doesn't add any more ULF scenes to the track which is what Beast was saying. ULF is defined as the frequencies below 25hz. BEQ changes the roll off so the extension and level increases, not the amount of ULF. So if there was 5% ULF content on the disk before BEQ, then there still is 5% after BEQ. The 5% range has been altered to extend deeper is all.
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post #1601 of 1930 Old 05-23-2019, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
It's still the same amount of ULF on the disk....So no BEQ doesn't increase the amount of ULF but it does increase the depth/extension of the ULF on the disk. So the percentage is the same.
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
^^^

The BEQ conversation increasingly seems like a tomato/tomahto discussion to me, since people are using the term "more ULF" in different ways. Perhaps it helps a bit to frame the discussion in the following way. It is very hard to hear frequencies below about 20Hz, in conjunction with other bass sounds, until the volume of the ULF sounds approaches about 100Hz. That number probably varies depending on the noise floor of the room, the overall volume level, the specific hearing of the individual, etc. But, 100db is a pretty good number to use for discussion purposes.
...
BEQ doesn't create ULF that never existed in a soundtrack to start with, but it also doesn't simply increase the loudness of that ULF content. In many cases, it may change the ULF from non-existent, by reason of inaudibility, to perceptible, thereby enhancing the overall special effects. So, it doesn't add to the overall percentage of ULF in a movie, but it may absolutely add to the overall audibility of ULF in a movie.

Just thought I would throw that distinction out there, for what it's worth.

Regards,
Mike


Edit: There is something else that I think may be worth noting. People who are already implementing a significant low-bass house curve may be doing the equivalent of Bass EQ for all of their movies. If they are lifting their <30Hz or <20Hz frequencies, relative to the other frequencies, then they are probably accomplishing the same thing that BEQ does, but on a broad-stroke basis.

BEQ is more movie-specific, but the net effect effect may be very similar with either BEQ or a global low-bass house curve. In fact, the person with the global low-bass house curve may end-up with more ULF, in general, because he is lifting the low-frequencies even in movies that are not rolling-off the ULF.
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
all the scenes are the same length or duration of time going by the time stamps. So BEQ doesn't add any more ULF scenes to the track which is what Beast was saying. ULF is defined as the frequencies below 25hz. BEQ changes the roll off so the extension and level increases, not the amount of ULF. So if there was 5% ULF content on the disk before BEQ, then there still is 5% after BEQ. The 5% range has been altered to extend deeper is all.
I recently experimented with this on Art Sonneborn's Trinnov. This was instigated from Art being a big fan of NASA movies and documentaries, and as many know, First Man was pretty much castrated in the lowest frequencies. I saw the posted info on the BEQ thread, and found I could implement some curves with the PEQ already available in the Trinnov using different presets. First Man really is a worst case example. We listened first with the typical system setup, and then engaged the boost which was very significant below 35-40Hz. While I ultimately dialed back the boost 3-5dB from what was suggested on the thread, it instantly transformed the launch sequences, especially where they were getting set and buttoned up in the pod. Without BEQ it was anemic and sounded like a TV recording, while the bass boost suddenly made all of the VLF punctuation of footsteps walking through different spaces, doors closing and rumblings in the background. As recorded on the BluRay these effects were so far down from audibility that for practical purposes, it was bringing back content previously not realizable.

I would point out that the vast majority of the EQ curves are MUCH steeper than any house curve. As anyone who's been around while I'm calibrating has witnessed, I'm pretty quick to audibly identify what I like as a good balance in a system of the content below 25Hz vs above. Too much below 25Hz or even in the 25-45Hz range will quickly muddy the detail and sound un-natural, and usually benefits more from overall more level vs added tilt to the response. It was plainly obvious in listening when the gain was in the ballpark of bringing the VLF content up to appropriate levels corresponding to the rest of the range. I ended up leaving 3 BEQ settings in separate presets to hit some curves I found more typical, with corners roughly around 20Hz, 30Hz, and 40Hz (for First Man). I do think the recommended filters are rather inefficient vs 1-3 shelf filters and 1-2 correctly set PEQs, but the net effect is impressive, beneficial, and plenty safe for a film that's been analyzed and with subwoofers that have appropriate protections in case you accidentally send a signal 10-30dB past the comfortable limits.

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post #1602 of 1930 Old 05-23-2019, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
Did you mean 21" by chance? Rythmik has half a dozen 12" models already, probably the most of any company.
It must be Seaton coming out with the 12" models then. Just goes to show how many new options we will have soon to choose from , from a 21" Rythmik , a 12" Seaton , possibly dual 10" from PSA and a mystery 'Big" sub. Plus all of the great choices we currently have!
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post #1603 of 1930 Old 05-23-2019, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
So if there was 5% ULF content on the disk before BEQ, then there still is 5% after BEQ. The 5% range has been altered to extend deeper is all.
This distinction doesn't make any sense. beq changes the spectral balance of the track so there is literally more "useable" ulf

i.e. in this example, previously there was basically 0% of the track with useable ulf (content that you can hear or feel) and now there is 5% (the scenes which had rolled off content on disc) of the track.
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post #1604 of 1930 Old 05-23-2019, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by GatoGoat View Post
It must be Seaton coming out with the 12" models then. Just goes to show how many new options we will have soon to choose from , from a 21" Rythmik , a 12" Seaton , possibly dual 10" from PSA and a mystery 'Big" sub. Plus all of the great choices we currently have!
21” Rythmik? Never heard any mention of that anywhere.
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post #1605 of 1930 Old 05-23-2019, 09:36 AM
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21” Rythmik? Never heard any mention of that anywhere.
There is not one, that is why
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post #1606 of 1930 Old 05-23-2019, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
I recently experimented with this on Art Sonneborn's Trinnov. This was instigated from Art being a big fan of NASA movies and documentaries, and as many know, First Man was pretty much castrated in the lowest frequencies. I saw the posted info on the BEQ thread, and found I could implement some curves with the PEQ already available in the Trinnov using different presets. First Man really is a worst case example. We listened first with the typical system setup, and then engaged the boost which was very significant below 35-40Hz. While I ultimately dialed back the boost 3-5dB from what was suggested on the thread, it instantly transformed the launch sequences, especially where they were getting set and buttoned up in the pod. Without BEQ it was anemic and sounded like a TV recording, while the bass boost suddenly made all of the VLF punctuation of footsteps walking through different spaces, doors closing and rumblings in the background. As recorded on the BluRay these effects were so far down from audibility that for practical purposes, it was bringing back content previously not realizable.

I would point out that the vast majority of the EQ curves are MUCH steeper than any house curve. As anyone who's been around while I'm calibrating has witnessed, I'm pretty quick to audibly identify what I like as a good balance in a system of the content below 25Hz vs above. Too much below 25Hz or even in the 25-45Hz range will quickly muddy the detail and sound un-natural, and usually benefits more from overall more level vs added tilt to the response. It was plainly obvious in listening when the gain was in the ballpark of bringing the VLF content up to appropriate levels corresponding to the rest of the range. I ended up leaving 3 BEQ settings in separate presets to hit some curves I found more typical, with corners roughly around 20Hz, 30Hz, and 40Hz (for First Man). I do think the recommended filters are rather inefficient vs 1-3 shelf filters and 1-2 correctly set PEQs, but the net effect is impressive, beneficial, and plenty safe for a film that's been analyzed and with subwoofers that have appropriate protections in case you accidentally send a signal 10-30dB past the comfortable limits.
Hi Mark, thanks for sharing, do you by any chance recall the exact freq, db, and Q values you used as I would love to compare to the one we have on the BEQ thread
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post #1607 of 1930 Old 05-23-2019, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by GatoGoat View Post
It must be Seaton coming out with the 12" models then. Just goes to show how many new options we will have soon to choose from , from a 21" Rythmik , a 12" Seaton , possibly dual 10" from PSA and a mystery 'Big" sub. Plus all of the great choices we currently have!
Mark does indeed have the JS12. I didn't recall Brian mentioning he had a 21" driver in the works, but you never know anymore.

 
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post #1608 of 1930 Old 05-23-2019, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
Mark does indeed have the JS12. I didn't recall Brian mentioning he had a 21" driver in the works, but you never know anymore.


I have not heard any mention at all about a 21 inch. I think he would likely get a G28 and FV28 done first before he ever thought about a 21 inch


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post #1609 of 1930 Old 05-23-2019, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post
Have you looked at the BEQ thread ba? I just glanced at a few and there is substantial output down to 10 hz and some in the single digits on the few that I saw. And these aren't "bass" movies either. Avengers sloped off pretty heavily before BEQ. Here's Atomic Blonde too.
Sure have although I don't frequent it since I do just as Mike is describing below VVVV



Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post


Edit: There is something else that I think may be worth noting. People who are already implementing a significant low-bass house curve may be doing the equivalent of Bass EQ for all of their movies. If they are lifting their <30Hz or <20Hz frequencies, relative to the other frequencies, then they are probably accomplishing the same thing that BEQ does, but on a broad-stroke basis.

BEQ is more movie-specific, but the net effect effect may be very similar with either BEQ or a global low-bass house curve. In fact, the person with the global low-bass house curve may end-up with more ULF, in general, because he is lifting the low-frequencies even in movies that are not rolling-off the ULF.

I run an adjustable series of low shelves like this where I can go flat should I choose to for the big bass movies, but have a global house curve that usually stays in place. If i don't adjust it down at all for the 5 star films, it is completely overpowering and almost violent, but, that's why I am rewatching the 5 star bass movie in the first place so why not? It's super fun.

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My post got all screwed up , I dont know who is making what or if ANYONE is making a new 21" sub...lol....Seems like we are on the forefront of an arms race of subs between ID brands!!
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post #1611 of 1930 Old 05-24-2019, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
This distinction doesn't make any sense. beq changes the spectral balance of the track so there is literally more "useable" ulf

i.e. in this example, previously there was basically 0% of the track with useable ulf (content that you can hear or feel) and now there is 5% (the scenes which had rolled off content on disc) of the track.
More useable ULF in the areas where Low Frequency content is already encoded. It doesn't transform the entire sound track.


First Man for example is extremely neutered in LF content. BEQ helps this sound track a lot, but it's still just adding more low frequency content to specific scenes. It's not like you are going to turn on BEQ and the movie suddenly has ULF start to finish. The same areas of the sound track that had bass pre BEQ will now have more presence and weight post BEQ.


I have had Anti-mode dual core and Mini DSP devices in the past. I use to play with house curves and low shelf filters. I found that most tracks sound the best left alone or slightly boosted(+3db) house curve or it sounds artificial and muddy. Just because the graph looks better doesn't mean it will actually sound better. Some rooms sound better by not significantly boosting low frequencies due to room resonances and vibrations.


Fwiw I am not implying BEQ is not worthwhile. I think it's a great supplement to gain useable extension with all of these filtered movies...especially for those with the right rooms to do it.
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post #1612 of 1930 Old 05-24-2019, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
More useable ULF in the areas where Low Frequency content is already encoded. It doesn't transform the entire sound track.


First Man for example is extremely neutered in LF content. BEQ helps this sound track a lot, but it's still just adding more low frequency content to specific scenes. It's not like you are going to turn on BEQ and the movie suddenly has ULF start to finish. The same areas of the sound track that had bass pre BEQ will now have more presence and weight post BEQ.
The issue with First Man is there was almost NO low frequency effects anywhere in the soundtrack, and the recording analysis confirms that. This difference is more akin to listening on a system with vented sub that dives off a cliff at 35Hz to a large array of sealed woofers with <10Hz extension and plenty of output.

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I have had Anti-mode dual core and Mini DSP devices in the past. I use to play with house curves and low shelf filters. I found that most tracks sound the best left alone or slightly boosted(+3db) house curve or it sounds artificial and muddy. Just because the graph looks better doesn't mean it will actually sound better. Some rooms sound better by not significantly boosting low frequencies due to room resonances and vibrations.


Fwiw I am not implying BEQ is not worthwhile. I think it's a great supplement to gain useable extension with all of these filtered movies...especially for those with the right rooms to do it.
While I agree most sound better with some level of house curve, I find that to be very dependent on room acoustics and comfortable playback levels of the system. The intent and use of BEQ is dramatically sharper than we would ever do in a house curve. It was slightly un-nerving to apply the filters, even knowing how well my own subs are protected, but looking multiple times at the measured soundtrack content and a first listen eventually put me at ease with it.
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post #1613 of 1930 Old 05-24-2019, 09:26 AM
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It was slightly un-nerving to apply the filters, even knowing how well my own subs are protected, but looking multiple times at the measured soundtrack content and a first listen eventually put me at ease with it.
I about lost my lunch the first time I saw the amount of LT boosting that was taking place on a few of the very first BEQ's. To the point I almost somehow smelled burning voicecoils just sitting there at my work desk. Bosso probably WOULD lose it looking at some of those filter layerings.
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post #1614 of 1930 Old 05-24-2019, 09:28 AM
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I about lost my lunch the first time I saw the amount of LT boosting that was taking place on a few of the very first BEQ's. To the point I almost somehow smelled burning voicecoils just sitting there at my work desk. Bosso probably WOULD lose it looking at some of those filter layerings.
Im the wierdo here.. I do not use BEQ and probably will never.. but maybe because I am mainly a music dude.
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post #1615 of 1930 Old 05-24-2019, 09:36 AM
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Im the wierdo here.. I do not use BEQ and probably will never.. but maybe because I am mainly a music dude.
I dont either. a 15-20dB house curve down to 10hz suffices just fine for me
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post #1616 of 1930 Old 05-24-2019, 10:56 AM
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More useable ULF in the areas where Low Frequency content is already encoded. It doesn't transform the entire sound track.
seems like talking at cross purposes here as this is what I wrote above, probably it's just semantics (of transform or amount) though as a filter does literally transform the entire track (aka waveform), I mean that's what a filter does
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post #1617 of 1930 Old 05-24-2019, 11:04 AM - Thread Starter
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seems like talking at cross purposes here as this is what I wrote above, probably it's just semantics (of transform or amount) though as a filter does literally transform the entire track (aka waveform), I mean that's what a filter does


This conversation started as I made a comment here that with BEQ there was more ULF content available. I still believe that statement is true as many movies had below 20hz content that had been filtered out and BEQ is unlocking it. Now how that statement is spun or interpreted is up to the individual. The fact that BEQ helps with filtered movies is a fact.


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post #1618 of 1930 Old 05-24-2019, 11:46 AM
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^ Agreed. If you have the room and subs for the deep stuff then BEQ away.
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post #1619 of 1930 Old 05-24-2019, 11:46 AM
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seems like talking at cross purposes here as this is what I wrote above, probably it's just semantics (of transform or amount) though as a filter does literally transform the entire track (aka waveform), I mean that's what a filter does
Sure! The discussion was, assuming 5% of the LFE track is below 20hz, Using BEQ doesn't change that, it just enhances that 5%. Use the Hulk cop car smash as an example and for a second let's pretend it has a similar rolloff to the MCU movies. When that 5hz note hits you wont get that floor wobble effect if the track had have been filtered, BUT the sound effect was still embedded in the audio track, IT WAS STILL THERE. Then you apply BEQ to drag that effect up into the range that you will actually experience the effect. The point it, the sound effect had to be there in the first place for BEQ to find it. The semantics argument could be that my statement that only 5% of a soundtrack is below 20hz is meaning anything and everything encoded to the soundtrack below 20hz regardless of level. Your system may only be able to play 50% of that 5%. OR the movie is filtered so you are only able to really experience 50% of that 5%, doesn't matter, it's still there and only 5% of the soundtrack. Now in the latter example you can use BEQ to now experience 100% of the 5%.

Stick a fork in this convo, it's done
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post #1620 of 1930 Old 05-24-2019, 12:04 PM
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The fact that BEQ helps with filtered movies is a fact.

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And there is a thread for those of us who appreciate what Beq brings. After spending $$$$ on subs, some with MAs/Boss, to get the extension down to 20hz or even to a single digit hz, it is up to an individual to decide playing 20 or higher hz filtered contents on his/her system. I know that I play my subs to their fullest potential making my investment worthwhile
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